Need some guidance.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Hi all,

After a brief hiatus, I'm back. =(

The extended version of my story can be found in previous posts, but i'll try and keep it short here. Things started getting better, or so I thought, so I didn't feel the need to post here as much... .it honestly hurts to think about it, much less talk about it, but I know I have to get it out somehow.  Yesterday I found proof that she made the conscious decision to start another relationship on the side with another guy while I was out of town working. That situation led to a sexual assault, or so she claims. I don't know anymore. All I know is that I came home to really horrible rumors and wreckage. She finally started opening up a little bit, so I thought there was light at the end of the tunnel for us, but I was wrong. We've been in counseling together, and she has been attending group sessions at the local women's shelter. I figured out that most of what has come out of her mouth or in letters that she's written to me has either been a partial truth or outright lie after stumbling across a message from a friend of hers (on my computer) telling her that she was making a huge mistake and that she needed to quit seeing the other guy, because I am too good to her to be treated like that. I also found out that  there was a very strong possibility that she had been seeing her ex in addition to the other guy as well. That seals it beyond any shadow of a doubt for me that leaving is not only the appropriate course of action, but the only course of action. I tried to leave before, and it almost worked... .that was when she finally appeared to realize that she could either open up or lose me. The result? More smoke, mirrors, confusion, and unhappiness. It's tough now because she appears to see me as her reason to get past the assault, and apparently her reason for being. She hasn't put it into words that way, but she's isolated herself from most of her friends, and either spends time with me or her family. Lately she's gotten super controlling and gets irritated if I don't talk to her at least 4 times a day when I'm at work, and has asked me repeatedly to take her with me when I leave town for work. That isn't possible, nor do I want it. I successfully moved her out several months ago, best decision I've made so far. I know that my decision to leave is a good one, it's just that the follow through is going to be tough because I understand why she's done all of this, I understand that she's deeply and horribly ashamed of herself and everything that's gone on, but I can't fix it. I can't make it better. I can't (and won't ) take responsibility for any of her actions or decisions or any of it. I understand that she's been mistreated in the past, I understand that there is a fundamental hurt that has permanently scarred who she is, that took this wonderful person with so much potential and twisted and perverted her into a shadow with no real knowledge of herself. I can't undo that. I can't fix that. I don't want to cause her anymore hurt than she's already experienced, but I can't save her. I can only save myself. She doesn't seem to understand how profoundly she's hurt both of us by her actions. She places blame everywhere but on herself, regardless of what the particular issue is. When it comes to us, it's always something that I could have done differently, said differently, etc. The fault is always mine. There's never any acceptance of responsibility for anything. I want out. I want out in a kind, effective, efficient manner. There was a time when I would have done anything for this girl... .that time is gone. I care very deeply about her as a person, but my love for her has faded because the girl I thought I knew wasn't real. It was that love that's kept me around, it was that love that made me give her a second chance, it was that love that drew me back in. It's gone now. After such a monumental betrayal, how can you love someone who has done this kind of thing to you? My focus now is on stepping back, assessing my options, and removing myself from the situation as quickly and safely as possible while minimizing the damage on both our parts. I know that simply looking her in the eye and telling her that " I don't love you anymore" is nothing short of a disaster waiting to happen... .but it's the truth. The fly in the ointment to all of this is that we are supposed to be leaving on a trip to see my family -very- soon. We'd been planning this for weeks, and then I find out another facet of the truth. Now I don't even want to see her, much less take her with me. Problem is, I can't find a way out, and her family has made arrangements to make it possible for her to go, and she's all kinds of excited. Meanwhile, I just want her to go away and be out of my life forever. My family knows parts of what's up, and are sympathetic to my situation. My plan at this late stage is to just suck it up, take her, and then end things afterwards. I hate the thought of doing this around the holidays, but I've been dealing with this for almost 5 months now, and I can't take much more. I'm disgusted by the situation, I'm disgusted with myself for getting duped, and I'm beginning to resent her for all of it. I'm starting to not care if my leaving hurts her, because I feel like nothing more than an item of convenience to her. On the flip side, that resentment and indifference is the polar opposite of who I've been, and who I am. Where I am: I'm leaving, no doubt. I just need to figure out the best way to do it. Abrupt NC is effective, tried it before, but the texts, phone calls, and unsolicited visits were pure hell. Should I just bore her away? Go NC and deal with the onslaught? I've dealt with the what and the why, just need some help with the how. (Footnote: I am seeing a counselor who is familiar with the situation, and will be asking these same questions at our next meeting).

[fft524]

Hi all,

After a brief hiatus, I'm back. =(

The extended version of my story can be found in previous posts, but i'll try and keep it short here. Things started getting better, or so I thought, so I didn't feel the need to post here as much... .it honestly hurts to think about it, much less talk about it, but I know I have to get it out somehow.  Yesterday I found proof that she made the conscious decision to start another relationship on the side with another guy while I was out of town working. That situation led to a sexual assault, or so she claims. I don't know anymore. All I know is that I came home to really horrible rumors and wreckage. She finally started opening up a little bit, so I thought there was light at the end of the tunnel for us, but I was wrong. We've been in counseling together, and she has been attending group sessions at the local women's shelter. I figured out that most of what has come out of her mouth or in letters that she's written to me has either been a partial truth or outright lie after stumbling across a message from a friend of hers (on my computer) telling her that she was making a huge mistake and that she needed to quit seeing the other guy, because I am too good to her to be treated like that. I also found out that  there was a very strong possibility that she had been seeing her ex in addition to the other guy as well. That seals it beyond any shadow of a doubt for me that leaving is not only the appropriate course of action, but the only course of action. I tried to leave before, and it almost worked... .that was when she finally appeared to realize that she could either open up or lose me. The result? More smoke, mirrors, confusion, and unhappiness. It's tough now because she appears to see me as her reason to get past the assault, and apparently her reason for being. She hasn't put it into words that way, but she's isolated herself from most of her friends, and either spends time with me or her family. Lately she's gotten super controlling and gets irritated if I don't talk to her at least 4 times a day when I'm at work, and has asked me repeatedly to take her with me when I leave town for work. That isn't possible, nor do I want it. I successfully moved her out several months ago, best decision I've made so far. I know that my decision to leave is a good one, it's just that the follow through is going to be tough because I understand why she's done all of this, I understand that she's deeply and horribly ashamed of herself and everything that's gone on, but I can't fix it. I can't make it better. I can't (and won't ) take responsibility for any of her actions or decisions or any of it. I understand that she's been mistreated in the past, I understand that there is a fundamental hurt that has permanently scarred who she is, that took this wonderful person with so much potential and twisted and perverted her into a shadow with no real knowledge of herself. I can't undo that. I can't fix that. I don't want to cause her anymore hurt than she's already experienced, but I can't save her. I can only save myself. She doesn't seem to understand how profoundly she's hurt both of us by her actions. She places blame everywhere but on herself, regardless of what the particular issue is. When it comes to us, it's always something that I could have done differently, said differently, etc. The fault is always mine. There's never any acceptance of responsibility for anything. I want out. I want out in a kind, effective, efficient manner. There was a time when I would have done anything for this girl... .that time is gone. I care very deeply about her as a person, but my love for her has faded because the girl I thought I knew wasn't real. It was that love that's kept me around, it was that love that made me give her a second chance, it was that love that drew me back in. It's gone now. After such a monumental betrayal, how can you love someone who has done this kind of thing to you? My focus now is on stepping back, assessing my options, and removing myself from the situation as quickly and safely as possible while minimizing the damage on both our parts. I know that simply looking her in the eye and telling her that " I don't love you anymore" is nothing short of a disaster waiting to happen... .but it's the truth. The fly in the ointment to all of this is that we are supposed to be leaving on a trip to see my family -very- soon. We'd been planning this for weeks, and then I find out another facet of the truth. Now I don't even want to see her, much less take her with me. Problem is, I can't find a way out, and her family has made arrangements to make it possible for her to go, and she's all kinds of excited. Meanwhile, I just want her to go away and be out of my life forever. My family knows parts of what's up, and are sympathetic to my situation. My plan at this late stage is to just suck it up, take her, and then end things afterwards. I hate the thought of doing this around the holidays, but I've been dealing with this for almost 5 months now, and I can't take much more. I'm disgusted by the situation, I'm disgusted with myself for getting duped, and I'm beginning to resent her for all of it. I'm starting to not care if my leaving hurts her, because I feel like nothing more than an item of convenience to her. On the flip side, that resentment and indifference is the polar opposite of who I've been, and who I am. Where I am: I'm leaving, no doubt. I just need to figure out the best way to do it. Abrupt NC is effective, tried it before, but the texts, phone calls, and unsolicited visits were pure hell. Should I just bore her away? Go NC and deal with the onslaught? I've dealt with the what and the why, just need some help with the how. (Footnote: I am seeing a counselor who is familiar with the situation, and will be asking these same questions at our next meeting).

[Learning_curve74]

Hi fft524. I could have written your post almost verbatim 4 months ago. I felt the same, that my exBPDgf could be such a great person, that she being mentally ill was not her fault, but in the end I couldn't live with somebody who lied, cheated, and took no responsibility for her own life.

I also identify with not being an angry and resentful person. However, it is perfectly fine to respect those feelings. In fact, maybe trying to suppress them kept me "trapped" in my BPD relationship when I knew I should've ended it earlier.

You obviously understand why you want to leave her and seem pretty sure of it. Of course you want to do it in a compassionate way. Only you can judge how much more you are willing to give and sacrifice. Weirdly enough, I took my exBPDgf on a trip when a couple of friends were advising me to dump her and not take her. I don't necessarily regret taking her, as I know both of us have some good memories from it, but there are also some bad memories too, and it did prolong things as I didn't dump her when we got back like my friends thought I would.

I hope you get some clarity from speaking with your counselor. Best wishes to you fft524. 

[Turkish]

Hi all,

After a brief hiatus, I'm back. =(

The extended version of my story can be found in previous posts, but i'll try and keep it short here. Things started getting better, or so I thought, so I didn't feel the need to post here as much... .it honestly hurts to think about it, much less talk about it, but I know I have to get it out somehow.  Yesterday I found proof that she made the conscious decision to start another relationship on the side with another guy while I was out of town working. That situation led to a sexual assault, or so she claims. I don't know anymore. All I know is that I came home to really horrible rumors and wreckage. She finally started opening up a little bit, so I thought there was light at the end of the tunnel for us, but I was wrong. We've been in counseling together, and she has been attending group sessions at the local women's shelter. I figured out that most of what has come out of her mouth or in letters that she's written to me has either been a partial truth or outright lie after stumbling across a message from a friend of hers (on my computer) telling her that she was making a huge mistake and that she needed to quit seeing the other guy, because I am too good to her to be treated like that.

Hi, fft, learning-curve summed it up pretty nicely. I'll add to what I highlighted above: My X knows what she is doing is wrong, but she still does it. I have found multiple writings from her about it. They are, as we know, nothing short of a ball of confusion inside, swirling with pain, emptiness and separate identities. In the end, it's all BS. Go with your gut, and to heck with what other people think. It sounds like your family supports you, and that is very good. End it, and then you will know a good way to share the Truth with them as you can.

[fft524]

Fortunately, the family knows about the BPD thing and are extremely supportive of what I'm doing. They don't know the details and probably never will... .hell, *I* don't like knowing the details, but they've given me the motivation to do what I need to do. As I said, I'm sickened by everything about the situation. Every time that this situation comes up in counseling, she all but crawls into my lap or tries to hide behind me on the sofa. The shame radiating off of her is beyond palpable, you can just about cut it with a butter knife. Made this discovery since our last session, and it makes everything that's happened make sense and cements my original counselor's secondhand diagnosis of BPD. I questioned that, but he hit the nail on the head... .Dude's REALLY good. I'm torn because I want to DO something about this, but I know that leaving is all I can do. She's done nothing but lie. I think her mom knows the truth, and BPGF has even admitted that her mom told her that if she told me the whole truth, I'd leave. She was about 75% right before, but since I found out on my own, she's 200% right. If the person that claims to love you can simply find several someone elses over two weeks, then lies to you and begs you not to leave... .that's not even sort of love... .That utter lack of respect and decency borders on hate. All that said, I still want to end this with some shred of compassion and decency, because that's just who I am. Even so, I want out, with minimal drama, and I want out NOW. 

[Turkish]

If the person that claims to love you can simply find several someone elses over two weeks, then lies to you and begs you not to leave... .that's not even sort of love... .That utter lack of respect and decency borders on hate.

Hi fft,

It is hate to us, because we have fully developed, secure consciences and identities. I feel the same way about mine. Like, "do you even have a soul?" It is something incomprehensible to us.

All that said, I still want to end this with some shred of compassion and decency, because that's just who I am. Even so, I want out, with minimal drama, and I want out NOW.

You know you are compassionate. You know you are decent. It means little to her at the time, and ultimately, nothing, as she has shown by her actions. Do you need to throw any more love into a black hole? Or just be done with it, take the temporary dysfunctional fallout and move on to better things? Ultimately, you are there, and you know what you need to do, for you. If "for you" means "for her", then it really isn't for you.

[ShadowDancer]

fft524,

Let me guide you to the door out of this insane relationship NOW!

F**K the trip. F**K her disappointment. F**K her family. F**K her "holidays". F**K her "fantasy assailant". F**K her ex. Get the F**K OUT!

Opening the door for you... .RUN from this ever increasing crowd! And don't stop.

And change your contact information.

[fft524]

Very, very, very well said, Turkish. I guess part of why it is so easy for them to lure us in is because that incomprehensible void is so unexpected, so far out from anything the average person would expect, and by the time we realize it, it's too late to just throw it in reverse. As painful as it is, I'm fortunate in that the events leading up to this happened about 6 months into the relationship, so as depraved as it may sound, she did me a favor. I haven't been able to piece the whole thing together with any certainty until now, but now that I have concrete proof, and not just rumors, hearsay, and lies, it couldn't be any more clear what has to happen. To respond to your comment about them having a soul... .I feel pretty certain they do, but it's just so tortured that it's become something dark. As I said in a post from a few months ago, this condition or state of being makes a really strong case for the existence for evil in this world, particularly if you take the viewpoint that evil isn't necessarily all hooves horns and pitchforks, but is rather indifference and/or chaos. It's a trap for the rest of us, they can see it, they feel it, but they can't do anything about it. Sometimes I think that the overwhelming sense of shame associated with this condition is due to the fact that they know the difference from right and wrong, but feel powerless to do anything about it. That doesn't justify anything on their end, just a philosophical  observation on my part. It doesn't change anything here, either. They never grew up.  

[fft524]

Shadowdancer,

I appreciate it. Thanks for the reaffirming *smack* from reality.

[ShadowDancer]

Shadowdancer,

I appreciate it. Thanks for the reaffirming *smack* from reality.

Save yourself FIRST my bro, then we shall ponder her affliction.

"We can't stop here... .this is bat country". Hunter Thompson-Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas

[Turkish]

To respond to your comment about them having a soul... .I feel pretty certain they do, but it's just so tortured that it's become something dark. As I said in a post from a few months ago, this condition or state of being makes a really strong case for the existence for evil in this world, particularly if you take the viewpoint that evil isn't necessarily all hooves horns and pitchforks, but is rather indifference and/or chaos.

An empty vessel can be filled by anything (which explains the mirroring). Or if you believe in or are nothing, then you'll believe in or be anything. Chameleons. They are chaos at their core, and it explodes out like a supernova from the middle of a black hole. As Nietzsche said, "... .when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."

[fft524]

One of my favorite quotes from one of my favorite movies... .

[DownandOut]

Very, very, very well said, Turkish. I guess part of why it is so easy for them to lure us in is because that incomprehensible void is so unexpected, so far out from anything the average person would expect, and by the time we realize it, it's too late to just throw it in reverse. As painful as it is, I'm fortunate in that the events leading up to this happened about 6 months into the relationship, so as depraved as it may sound, she did me a favor. I haven't been able to piece the whole thing together with any certainty until now, but now that I have concrete proof, and not just rumors, hearsay, and lies, it couldn't be any more clear what has to happen. To respond to your comment about them having a soul... .I feel pretty certain they do, but it's just so tortured that it's become something dark. As I said in a post from a few months ago, this condition or state of being makes a really strong case for the existence for evil in this world, particularly if you take the viewpoint that evil isn't necessarily all hooves horns and pitchforks, but is rather indifference and/or chaos. It's a trap for the rest of us, they can see it, they feel it, but they can't do anything about it. Sometimes I think that the overwhelming sense of shame associated with this condition is due to the fact that they know the difference from right and wrong, but feel powerless to do anything about it. That doesn't justify anything on their end, just a philosophical  observation on my part. It doesn't change anything here, either. They never grew up. 

In bold. Very well-put. I think that one of the struggles post-BPD relationship is that we are so hard on ourselves for not seeing the red flags sooner. Most of us here are intelligent, confident and all-in-all well-adjusted people that were sucked into a dangerous emotional game by someone we saw as the epitome of what we've been looking for in a mate. As a result, we tried to see the good in them and they turned out to be seriously bad. Rotten fruit that we couldn't tell was rotten until we got close to the core. But, like you said, their actions are so outside the bounds of common decency or anything that a "normal" person would do, we are completely blindsided by it. We ask ourselves, "how can someone that professed to love us, treat us so badly?" They didn't love us, they don't love themselves and they don't know what love really is. Love doesn't hurt. If someone claims to love you and you are constantly feeling bad around them, it's not love and it's time to leave.

[maxen]

hi fft. i'm really sorry to hear your situation but you seem to have come to a clear (and correct!) identification of your situation. in that sense you're ahead of me! deep inside i can't disengage. so good for you.

If the person that claims to love you can simply find several someone elses over two weeks, then lies to you and begs you not to leave... .that's not even sort of love... .That utter lack of respect and decency borders on hate.

Hi fft,

It is hate to us, because we have fully developed, secure consciences and identities. I feel the same way about mine. Like, "do you even have a soul?" It is something incomprehensible to us.

and that's catnip to me. i can't let go the grasping after an explanation. that's my issue i know but it's also the normal human response to an abnormal set of actions. she's the one i chose to marry, i'm the one she chose to marry, and this is what she did. it's incomprehensible.

[ShadowDancer]

One of my favorite quotes from one of my favorite movies... .

I kinda figured as much!

[ShadowDancer]

hi fft. i'm really sorry to hear your situation but you seem to have come to a clear (and correct!) identification of your situation. in that sense you're ahead of me! deep inside i can't disengage. so good for you.

If the person that claims to love you can simply find several someone elses over two weeks, then lies to you and begs you not to leave... .that's not even sort of love... .That utter lack of respect and decency borders on hate.

Hi fft,

It is hate to us, because we have fully developed, secure consciences and identities. I feel the same way about mine. Like, "do you even have a soul?" It is something incomprehensible to us.

and that's catnip to me. i can't let go the grasping after an explanation. that's my issue i know but it's also the normal human response to an abnormal set of actions. she's the one i chose to marry, i'm the one she chose to marry, and this is what she did. it's incomprehensible.

I will say it once again then I'll drop it!

It stands to reasonably responsible reason that expecting a reasonably responsible response from the unresponsively unreasonable is not responsibly reasonable. Or was that the other way around?       

[fft524]

Maxen, I know it's more easily said than done, but understand that there is no clearly definable, explainable why. There is only smoke and mirrors, and at the center of it all is a void. It's taken me months to grasp this; months of trying to find an alternative to what turned out to be the truth... .I just got lucky enough to find the needle in the haystack piece of info that put things into perspective. She wasn't being persecuted, people were telling the truth; there was no plot against her, only decent people trying to protect me, not because they particularly like or care about me, but because her actions were so aberrant, blatant, and wrong. I never would have thought that I would be contacted by people I've never met telling me to RUN. The whole thing is surreal and horrible, and denial is inevitable. My point is that as horrid as it is, stop grasping. As a very close friend quoted to me from a therapist she ws studying: "When people show you who they really are, believe them." No why, no doubt. RUN.

[maxen]

thanks fft.

understand that there is no clearly definable, explainable why. There is only smoke and mirrors, and at the center of it all is a void.

i know. the last thing she said to me, in an email, from the comfort of her current, adulterous relationship, was "i'm very confused." my T said, "that's the only true thing she's said to you."

RUN.

once i thought about it, but not seriously. and now she's run. i wish i'd had your certainty!

[Learning_curve74]

One thing I do want to add here is that while we are well within our rights to decide how we will act in response to the hurt that we experience in our relationships with people who have BPD, it is a form of black and white thinking/splitting to say they are "evil". I do believe that many people with BPD do bad things, but not all of them are "evil incarnate".

Not everybody experiences the exact same things in their BPD relationships, but many of us had fair warning, the so called "red flags", and we ignored them. I'm not for blaming the victim, but in many circumstances I think some of us could have spared ourselve the heartache if our compassion didn't blind us to the warning signs.

It is very true that a lot of the advice here on the Leaving board consists of "run", but most of the people here that haven't been dumped are in relationships that seem to be on life support if not terminal. 

[bewildered2]

try and always keep in mind that she has BPD. and remember what that means.

expecting normal behavior from somebody suffering with this disorder is like expecting someone in a wheelchair to get up and run a 10k race.

someone with BPD will tell lies to cover-up the truth. and the truth might be as distasteful to them as it is to you, hence their shame. and their past actions are explained by their need to ease the emotional pain which for them is chronic and permanent. and their lack of object constancy. this means that when you are out of sight that you are out of (her) mind, and so she soothes her pain with anyone handy... .and ex... .or a new person... .

it's just what somebody with BPD does... .

it's horrible for you, of course. and her behavior won't change. so your decision to leave appears to be a good one.

b2

[ShadowDancer]

One thing I do want to add here is that while we are well within our rights to decide how we will act in response to the hurt that we experience in our relationships with people who have BPD, it is a form of black and white thinking/splitting to say they are "evil". I do believe that many people with BPD do bad things, but not all of them are "evil incarnate".

Shall we discuss percentages next?

The used terminology of "splitting" is far and away out of context to the discussion. This is not about rights or black/white thinking or other buzz word labels and descriptions. It is a matter of various differing degree of subjective experiences IMO. 

[ShadowDancer]

One thing I do want to add here is that while we are well within our rights to decide how we will act in response to the hurt that we experience in our relationships with people who have BPD, it is a form of black and white thinking/splitting to say they are "evil". I do believe that many people with BPD do bad things, but not all of them are "evil incarnate".

Shall we discuss percentages next?

The used terminology of "splitting" is far and away out of context to the discussion. This is not about rights or black/white thinking or other buzz word labels and descriptions. It is a matter of various differing degrees of subjective experiences IMO.  

[fft524]

Please allow me to clarify a little bit... .my point wasn't that they themselves are necessarily evil incarnate, but rather than only the presence of evil in this world would allow someone to be formed into something that tortured.

In my personal situation, the whole thing with BPD is very subdued. It's there, but very passive (and passive aggressive)... .It's not right there screaming IN YOUR FACE all the time... .unless you know what you're looking at. It's like one of those pictures of a galloping horse, say, and the closer you look, it's not just one or two, but 30 or more, like one of those kids' puzzles. She seems like there's something just a little off about her at first, but maybe she's just quirky. Then once you get to know her and she's comfortable that you're caught, the lies get more and more blatant, until finally you look at her and go "seriously?" Worse, she'll do everything exactly right in the beginning to gain your love and trust... .and then send the old thermonuclear missile over to turn all of that into black glass when you least expect it; afterwards, there will be the innocent batting of the eyes like "who, me? YOU  made me push the big red button."   

[fft524]

Also, after a decent night's sleep, I came to the realization that this would never havd worked, anyway, even if she hadn't lied, cheated, and lied... .for her to feel ok, she wants/needs company/attention 24/7. I can't do that, its why I'm not a parent. My life isn't there yet, so how can I be a "single parent" to a significant other, despite the betrayal? It's falling into place, I'm finally getting to the point that I  can replace emotion with logic, at least with her. It's both sad and liberating.