When to let go and take the financial loss?

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I haven't been on the boards in a long while, but if you remember my story at all, you may remember that the main sticking point has been our house and my oh so so difficult soon to be ex husband.  I am desperately needing the wisdom of the board again!

I left in Feb and have lived with my parents since.  It's a blessing to have them (they really are wonderful), but I'm in my mid-40s and more than ready to be on my own.  I have paid half the mortgage since I left (to tune of around 8K), have paid around 5K in legal bills, have about 7K in credit debt (lots because of ex's drug habit prior to leaving... .we split credit debt but still).  I figure that puts me around 20K in hole so far in 9 months since leaving.  I am a teacher, so that is a large chunk of change, especially considering my age.  Oh, and I already paid half utilities for several months (I was an idiot) -- didn't even add that in.  And, yes, it burns me up that he is living there with me paying half his mortgage!  Grrr... .

I know nearly everyone here relates to the financial hit that our pd's take on us -- as if the emotional damage isn't enough, they hit us in the wallet, and it's hard to recover.

We had several deals on the table over the summer -- the best one was my husband offered to buy me out for 15.  He wouldn't negotiate at all, but in end I agreed to amount (though it was low considering equity).  At last minute, he totally pulled the deal off table and said all offers now off.  He basically threw a temper tantrum over something he misunderstood in the offer.  He is super reactionary and irrational (who relates?  haha!).

So, we have been STUCK painfully since August.  I diligently pay mortgage every month and he writes me a check for his half.  Mind you the house has never even been LISTED (he is so damn difficult).  Now, suprise, surprise, the house is requiring a few repairs before listing -- he got quoted around 3.5K, I was quoted around 1K. He says he has NO money (lie or drugs - who knows?), and that I must arrange for and pay for all repairs.  I bust butt to set all this up (mind you, I haven't been in house to see damage, as he won't let me in there without him there -- no thank you!), so who knows how bad it really is.

The day before the drywall is set to be ripped out, he offers me 4-5K through the listing agent -- he is too cheap to even make the offer through his attorney!  I told her I was receptive to a buyout (it would still be quickest way to end this) but that I would need more like 10.  I also told her I would go to 8 or so (enough to cover closing for a house for me to buy).

Surprise, surprise.  He threw a HUGE TANTRUM, again said even the offer of 5 is off table, etc.  She was shocked by how crazy he got when she suggested 10.  BTW, she has been a friend of mine for years, yet he for some reason trusts her and hired her himself.  Anyway... .

So, do I take 5 which is a pittance?  Even with the needed repairs, it's ridiculously low ball.

Do I walk away and be done ... .but take the huge financial hit?

When is justice ever done?

BTW, he is taking me to court in 3 weeks to get spousal support -- based on the formula that I make a little more and he has more bills (I don't technically have rent now).  I think my lawyer is actually happy about it because he will be surprised to know that I will by then have a new mortgage (if my recent bid goes through), and his claim will be tossed out.  Further, he will be ordered to pay full mortgage while house is listed until it sells b/c I will then have my own mortgage.

So... .some people (my mother, the listing agent, a couple friends) are telling me... .walk away.  It's just a few thousand ( a lot to me though).  Others say fight. I am inclined still to fight.  I have accepted he must WIN and am ok with that.  But wth?  I have paid 8K in mortgage since Feb -- 5 doesn't even cover that.  Part of me though is ready to walk away.  The money hurts!  He will have such a nice house and I will not be able to afford near the same.  It's BS.

I know he is thinking/hoping and it's been his plan all along to just wear me down.  I still have some fight left.

What would you do?

[atcrossroads]

I haven't been on the boards in a long while, but if you remember my story at all, you may remember that the main sticking point has been our house and my oh so so difficult soon to be ex husband.  I am desperately needing the wisdom of the board again!

I left in Feb and have lived with my parents since.  It's a blessing to have them (they really are wonderful), but I'm in my mid-40s and more than ready to be on my own.  I have paid half the mortgage since I left (to tune of around 8K), have paid around 5K in legal bills, have about 7K in credit debt (lots because of ex's drug habit prior to leaving... .we split credit debt but still).  I figure that puts me around 20K in hole so far in 9 months since leaving.  I am a teacher, so that is a large chunk of change, especially considering my age.  Oh, and I already paid half utilities for several months (I was an idiot) -- didn't even add that in.  And, yes, it burns me up that he is living there with me paying half his mortgage!  Grrr... .

I know nearly everyone here relates to the financial hit that our pd's take on us -- as if the emotional damage isn't enough, they hit us in the wallet, and it's hard to recover.

We had several deals on the table over the summer -- the best one was my husband offered to buy me out for 15.  He wouldn't negotiate at all, but in end I agreed to amount (though it was low considering equity).  At last minute, he totally pulled the deal off table and said all offers now off.  He basically threw a temper tantrum over something he misunderstood in the offer.  He is super reactionary and irrational (who relates?  haha!).

So, we have been STUCK painfully since August.  I diligently pay mortgage every month and he writes me a check for his half.  Mind you the house has never even been LISTED (he is so damn difficult).  Now, suprise, surprise, the house is requiring a few repairs before listing -- he got quoted around 3.5K, I was quoted around 1K. He says he has NO money (lie or drugs - who knows?), and that I must arrange for and pay for all repairs.  I bust butt to set all this up (mind you, I haven't been in house to see damage, as he won't let me in there without him there -- no thank you!), so who knows how bad it really is.

The day before the drywall is set to be ripped out, he offers me 4-5K through the listing agent -- he is too cheap to even make the offer through his attorney!  I told her I was receptive to a buyout (it would still be quickest way to end this) but that I would need more like 10.  I also told her I would go to 8 or so (enough to cover closing for a house for me to buy).

Surprise, surprise.  He threw a HUGE TANTRUM, again said even the offer of 5 is off table, etc.  She was shocked by how crazy he got when she suggested 10.  BTW, she has been a friend of mine for years, yet he for some reason trusts her and hired her himself.  Anyway... .

So, do I take 5 which is a pittance?  Even with the needed repairs, it's ridiculously low ball.

Do I walk away and be done ... .but take the huge financial hit?

When is justice ever done?

BTW, he is taking me to court in 3 weeks to get spousal support -- based on the formula that I make a little more and he has more bills (I don't technically have rent now).  I think my lawyer is actually happy about it because he will be surprised to know that I will by then have a new mortgage (if my recent bid goes through), and his claim will be tossed out.  Further, he will be ordered to pay full mortgage while house is listed until it sells b/c I will then have my own mortgage.

So... .some people (my mother, the listing agent, a couple friends) are telling me... .walk away.  It's just a few thousand ( a lot to me though).  Others say fight. I am inclined still to fight.  I have accepted he must WIN and am ok with that.  But wth?  I have paid 8K in mortgage since Feb -- 5 doesn't even cover that.  Part of me though is ready to walk away.  The money hurts!  He will have such a nice house and I will not be able to afford near the same.  It's BS.

I know he is thinking/hoping and it's been his plan all along to just wear me down.  I still have some fight left.

What would you do?

[livednlearned]

What exactly (and by exactly, I mean exactly) does "walking away" mean to him?

Because even if you give him his way, he may still find sport in negative engagement. I handed over the house to my ex, thinking it would make him back down. And it has cost me thousands of dollars in both family court lawyer fees and real estate lawyer fees to get him to refinance, which is what had to happen so he gets the house. Just that alone pissed him off. Imagine! Being given the house, and then it costing him money to refinance! So he stalled, I filed a motion for contempt to get him to refinance. He tried to pull a fast one and stick me with the home equity, I hired a real estate attorney, the refi was pulled off the table because N/BPDx took too long dealing with the home equity properly.

So we filed a second motion for contempt. He showed up in court with the wackiest legal arguments. Judge found him in contempt of court, and awarded me legal fees.

I haven't seen the legal fees. So I have to file another motion for contempt for that. First, an order to show cause, plus a hearing in court. And then the motion. More legal fees. I am not kidding when I say that the legal fees he owes me will go toward paying for the legal fees it is costing me to pay my lawyer to get... .my legal fees.

So all this to say that if you do decide to walk away, just be very, very specific about how that is going to go down so that you aren't in any way in a position of weakness. If he buys you out, have it written in the order that he must refi by such and such a date. If he has not done xyz by then, if you have to file a motion for contempt, he must assume all legal fees for the matter.

Also, as you probably know very well, your ex may go down in flames on the mortgage and take you with him, just because he can. I have found it stunning that N/BPDx will offer himself up as collateral damage just so he can make me suffer.

All this to say, I'm not sure if any of us ever just "walk away." So decide what is important and right to you, and then go from there. And then make sure you draft a watertight order with very clearly spelled out consequences for any shenanigans he might try to pull.

[atcrossroads]

WE ARE MARRIED TO THE SAME MAN!

Thank you, Lived.  I was hoping you would chime in.  I am so thankful I never had children with my husband.

Great advice -- I know everything needs to be in writing.  One of last things he ever told me before I made my exit was, "I will make you suffer.  And, you know I'll do it too because I'm vindictive."  My mom keeps telling me he is sticking to this promise.

I had NOT actually considered that taking 5K (which the listing agent cajoled him into still offering when he hissy-fitted and said "all deals are off -- even the 5K offer is off the table!" -- anyway, I had not considered that letting him WIN and taking a PITTANCE might still not bring an end to the madness.

Dear Lord. 

I am so sorry that you are still dealing with your husband.  I can see the same scenario being played out - dragging him to court and then him being in contempt of everything ordered and me losing even MORE.  ARGH.

[livednlearned]

WE ARE MARRIED TO THE SAME MAN!

I know, right? I see carbon copies of my ex here all the time. The weirdest is when you see someone paste an email, the whole thing that their ex wrote, and you realize it's almost word for word what your ex has written you. Like they're all buying these paragraphs from eBay or something. "How to write mean emails. Free samples." Right down to the insults that don't even make sense.

This is a good time to read up on negotiation tactics. You need to offer him something ridiculous, and then slowly move down to slightly below absurd, and each time you counter offer, you watch with detached amazement as he throws a tantrum in email, like an orangutan behind bullet-proof glass in the zoo.

Prepare yourself for the moment when he notices that his human ATM machine is about to make out like a bandit, leaving him with a giant mortgage payment and no way to pay for it. The extinction bursting is going to be spectacular. Your ex will not change gears, or speed, or course. He is going to bully you, and be outrageous, and mean, and ask for all kinds of things. And you are going to thank him for tipping his hand in fits of rage, handing you over all kinds of useful information you can then work into your negotiation strategy.

Write down your dream scenario. What do you want? What do you really, really want? Say you want to sell the house. You want him to pay for all the fixer upper costs. You want him to pay you back every dime in mortgage payments and utility bills. You want him to vacate the house so you can see the condition of the house and take pictures. You want the house on the market by such and such a date. You want 100% of the proceeds from the sale of the house or $15K, whichever is more. If the house is not sold by such and such a date, you will hire a new realtor to list the place. Every time someone comes to view the house, he must be outta there! If he obstructs the sale of the house, he pays you a thousand dollars each time! You see what I mean? Create your dream scenario and pitch it. Then wait for the bang. Then counter offer. Make every offer include contingencies and closed loopholes and consequences for everything so the judge doesn't have to do any thinking. "Mr BPD, you agreed to this right here. So why aren't you doing? I guess you have to go to jail now."


I wish I had gone in with a couple of backbones and selected the titanium one when I started negotiating. Instead I brought my foam core backbone and had to have my lawyer prop me up so I didn't hand over the 401K too and my unborn grandchildren.

[atcrossroads]

Oh, this is priceless!  Somehow you got me laughing even in the midst of all my frustrations and worries.  Thank you for that!   

My dream scenario is for my soon-to-be ex BPD/npd husband move far, far away.  Sadly, that's a dream that won't be coming true, as he seems to be deeply planted where he is.  We even work together though thankfully it's a big building!

Really, I don't want much. 

I want enough to cover closing and buy appliances on a house I bid on over the weekend (playing the waiting game right now waiting to hear on that too).  I want him to offer a FAIR and REASONABLE amount. 

If he buys me out, then I can qualify for the loan myself; as it is, if my bid is accepted, my parents will co-sign, and I will have to refinance the loan in my name (to tune of several thousand dollars) once our house does sell.  So, it would be ideal for me if he would buy me out.  But, his 5K offer is ridiculously low ball.  Even with repairs, 10K is more like it, and I would even take 8 at this point.  I need enough to cover my closing and purchase appliances, or again I would have to borrow from my parents -- which I do not want to do!

I fear time is not on my hands.  By the time we hem and haw over this, I will have paid Dec. mortgage, and if I win bid on house, I will have to proceed to qualify with parents as co-sign (more expensive for me NOW and down the road when I refinance - ugh).

In hindsight I wish we had gone to court this summer -- with a titanium backbone!  I feel I have waited so long, it's all a loss now. My lawyer is aware of my husband's issues and behaviors but has tried very hard to keep this out of court, as it would cost me so much if we entered litigation.  He is a very good negotiator, but it's hard to negotiate with a BPD (understatement), especially one that already fired one lawyer, "represented himself" for a couple of months (totally stalled out at that point), and has now hired another lawyer but is getting the listing agent to do all the work of negotiating so he doesn't have to pay his lawyer. 

It's unreal how much havoc has been wreaked already.  I'm so worn out!

Thanks for your responses and commiseration.

[livednlearned]

I want enough to cover closing and buy appliances on a house I bid on over the weekend (playing the waiting game right now waiting to hear on that too).  I want him to offer a FAIR and REASONABLE amount.  

I think you need to separate this. What you want it for is different.

Start with:

The house is worth this.

It will cost x to fix it up.

Atcrossroads has put x into the mortgage since date of separate.

ACR has put x into utilities.

All other expenses, past and expected, that ACR will put into house in order to be done with this.

Ex has paid y since date of separation.

Proceeds from house would be x after giving the realtor a commission.

Cost of lawyer fees to deal with this.

Then consider:

How much is left after realtor has taken a cut.

How much it would cost for ex to refinance.

How much you project in legal fees if this gets litigated.

How much it will cost ex to move out of the house.

How much it will cost to put house on market.

Plus:

How a judge might rule if this got litigated

What the guidelines are for property division in your state.


What is best-case scenario, after taking all this into consideration, for you? For him? Spell out the best-case scenario for him, worst-case scenario for him. Then the same for you.

He may still make life miserable for you no matter what, but in a good negotiation, you start with the unemotional stuff first. Then look at realistic scenarios and make them super clear, for you and for him. Then inflate the worst-case scenario for him so he sees how being a bad actor is going to be worse for him. Don't explain too much. He'll be more likely to do something favorable if he thinks he's figuring stuff out on his own.  

Or not. Honestly, negotiating with pwBPD is just plain irrational, in my experience. But at least you disengage emotionally and just focus on what's actually there so you can make super informed choices.

Then, if you realize that 8K is a steal, you feel good about getting that. Or maybe 5K is good. In which case, you know it was the best thing to do, and then you focus like heck on writing a watertight order so that he gives you the 5K and refinances the house like a champ. Or else, xyz happens.

[atcrossroads]

Such good advice!  Thank you!

[ForeverDad]

This is all financial stuff.  Courts have formulas and whatever to handle the typical issues.  Yes, the courts prefer settlements but why not let the court make the orders?  Until now it seems the case is on idle in court, why not get things moving toward wrapping things up, at least getting a start?  Surely a judge's decision can't be worse than what ex wants, can it?  Beware the judge will try to give more time for a settlement, so counter with the statement you've already tried several months of settlement talks and all that has happened is that you've paid half the mortgage of a house you're not living in.  Can you get more out of the upcoming hearing than just a resolution of his support motion?

[marbleloser]

"Further, he will be ordered to pay full mortgage while house is listed until it sells b/c I will then have my own mortgage"

Don't count on this. Since you've been paying half,you've established status quo of doing so.Were you court ordered to pay half?

His attorney is going to bring up that you've been living rent free at your parents home and that you deciding to tackle another mortgage is not your exH's fault.You can't say you can't afford to pay the mortgage as you're taking on a new one.They'll bring up that you left the marital home and left your exH holding the bag of paying all expenses to maintain the home if you stop paying.

Any court orders yet? Why did you pay half the mortgage after you left?

[livednlearned]

This is all financial stuff.  Courts have formulas and whatever to handle the typical issues.  Yes, the courts prefer settlements but why not let the court make the orders?  Until now it seems the case is on idle in court, why not get things moving toward wrapping things up, at least getting a start?  Surely a judge's decision can't be worse than what ex wants, can it?  Beware the judge will try to give more time for a settlement, so counter with the statement you've already tried several months of settlement talks and all that has happened is that you've paid half the mortgage of a house you're not living in.  Can you get more out of the upcoming hearing than just a resolution of his support motion?

FD is getting at something that long-timers of BPD divorces tend to eventually accept: Going to court is often the lesser of two evils. Court, while obviously expensive, is likely to eliminate the exact kind of exasperating nutty back-and-forth you are experiencing with your ex. Have you read coffeeshop's experience? Her story is a good cautionary tale. Even when a judge gets involved, pwBPD still behave badly. Except judges can throw people in jail, and far as I can tell, that's about the only thing that motivates my ex to do the right thing.

I understand the desire to buy a new house right away, but be aware that this issue with your ex could potentially drag on for a stupid amount of time. And you will have to have a lawyer ($$$) because real estate law is super complex. My family law attorney wouldn't even touch my real estate stuff because she's well aware how much that industry changes, laws included. Mine took almost 3 years to resolve. 3 years! For him to refinance. Gah! It's not like we couldn't sell the house, or he couldn't afford it. He just dragged that sucker on so he could stay negatively engaged.

Coffeeshop's took over a year. And this is straight up financial stuff we're talking about. With agreements made in court orders. Judges involved. You'd think stuff would resolve quickly, but no.

You don't want to box yourself into a spot with no oxygen to breathe -- if this eventually goes to court and the judge orders you to keep paying half the mortgage until xyz happens, make sure you have enough money for that.

My contingency planning these days is outrageous. I budget $500 a month for legal bills. I've been doing that for 3 years. And I'm still not done! I owe on my credit card, I owe my parents, and I owe my lawyer. All legal bills.

Best investment I ever made, though. Because I am free!

[atcrossroads]

Best investment I ever made, though. Because I am free!

I want to be free too!  I despise that it's costing an arm, a leg, and a small child (I'm a bit old to be recovering from such a financial hit), but dang, I WANT TO BE FREE!

I have an appt at 4:30 with my attorney.  He has not yet made the 5K offer through his attorney, but I told the Listing Agent (who he is using as a go-between) today to let him know I am open to the offer, coming from his attorney.  I do fear everything you all have brought up -- that somehow he won't be able to refinance or that things that could continue to drag out.  But right now the worst thing I can imagine is LISTING the house with him.  Repairing the leaky roof and drywall in and of themselves could take months because he disagrees with my contractors, won't let them in, etc.  Agreeing on a listing price, etc. ... .there are just a million ways to sabotage. 

So, I've decided to take the low ball offer, run like hell with it, pray he can refinance quickly.  LET HIM WIN AND LIVE HIS MISERABLE LIFE.

As far as the other mortgage -- I've already bid on the house, and I want it.  My lawyer has assured me that no judge (maybe it's a state or local thing) would require me to pay half my mortgage and pay my new mortgage (if my bid is accepted).  On the contrary, a judge would order him to assume full payment of mortgage since I would have one of my own.  I feel pretty safe that it would play out that way in court.

Other complications are that my stuff is still in the house, he refuses to allow me to get my stuff without his intimidating angry self present (May is only time I've been to house since I left to get some things and I did so with deputy escort - it was horrible).  We still have pics/documents on each others' (once ours jointly) computers -- that should be a fun exchange.  And, like I said, just the worry that he will drag out the re-fi.

He is a f'ing nightmare.  It's so good to come here and commiserate with others who have been through the same and get advice.  There are so many things to worry about -- I am literally losing hair this week!  Thank you all!  I will let you know how the week goes.

[livednlearned]

So, I've decided to take the low ball offer, run like hell with it, pray he can refinance quickly.

Then make sure you get your money's worth out of your lawyer. The refinance language has to be so watertight! Everything that can go wrong needs to be addressed. Contingency the hell out of that thing. Write down everything you can think of that could go wrong. Have time limits. Make it clear who will pay for any future court costs if the refi does not happen in a timely fashion. If your ex cannot lock in a good rate, that's not your problem. He pays closing costs.

That's why I would detail the heck out of things for your negotiation strategy. Let him think that giving you 5K and refinancing is the deal of a lifetime, and if he doesn't comply, he gets it up the rear.

Other complications are that my stuff is still in the house, he refuses to allow me to get my stuff without his intimidating angry self present (May is only time I've been to house since I left to get some things and I did so with deputy escort - it was horrible).  We still have pics/documents on each others' (once ours jointly) computers -- that should be a fun exchange.  And, like I said, just the worry that he will drag out the re-fi.

So that is a condition of accepting the low-ball offer. In your order, it needs to say that you will be escorted by law enforcement while removing your things on such and such a date. He must not be present at the house. Or, he can sit his cold self in a car parked on the street while you retrieve your items.

Or you can do like I did, and hire a moving truck during the middle of the day and just get your stuff. Happens all the time. The moving guys totally knew what was going down. Mind you, I about had a heart attack the whole time, picturing N/BPDx popping out of the closet at any point.

We understand what you're going through. Just know that you have taken the hardest step. It gets better -- not very fast, mind you. But it does get better. 

[atcrossroads]

And, it continues (surprise, surprise).

His lawyer tells mine on Friday that he will make the 5K buy out offer to me (still haven't seen it- I suppose he will send it tomorrow), BUT HIS "OFFER" IS CONTINGENT ON MY PAYING HALF THE MORTGAGE FOR 90 MORE DAYS (!) WHILE HE REFINANCES.

Seriously?

Ok, no.  That is not going to happen.  I have been fairly calm throughout the process and have been willing to compromise a lot.  I have already paid nearly 8K in mortgage costs since Feb. and have been in the house 1x to retrieve some of my things with police escort.  For 4 months, I split the utilities to be nice.  And, he wants 3 more months?

Marble, the reason I have continued to pay half is because if I didn't he would stop paying his half, the house would foreclose, and both our credit would be ruined.  Our plan was to sell the house (we began the process in June) but clearly that got stalled out and never happened.  He then made me a buy out offer, we negotiated, I accepted his terms (after some back and forth), he then threw a temper tantrum and withdrew his offer.  Meanwhile he fired his attorney and had no representation for a couple months which made him impossible to deal with.  So we've been stalled out.

I am 45 - I don't see how a judge would expect me to live with my parents who are in their 70s forever.  When people split up, they each have their own expenses.  Me buying the house will mean we both have our own expenses.  I think a judge would see it that way. 

But, we don't have PSA signed yet... .because of the house!

I am so flustered.  I need to say yay or nay to house tomorrow - it's a VA loan and I must close by Jan 10 - need to roll on it.  It's a good thing for me to get the house (I don't see how he would have any claim to it (we've been separated over a year), and my lawyer said it will look good in court.

I am going to double check with him tomorrow -- you all have me worried.

So much could go wrong, I suppose.  But I can't sit and let him keep walking all over me.  Don't I need to get on with my life at some point?

Argh.  Frustration level is high.  Thanks for all the comments, advice, responses.  It is beyond stressful dealing with a pd person!   

[atcrossroads]

"Further, he will be ordered to pay full mortgage while house is listed until it sells b/c I will then have my own mortgage"

Don't count on this. Since you've been paying half,you've established status quo of doing so.Were you court ordered to pay half?

His attorney is going to bring up that you've been living rent free at your parents home and that you deciding to tackle another mortgage is not your exH's fault.You can't say you can't afford to pay the mortgage as you're taking on a new one.They'll bring up that you left the marital home and left your exH holding the bag of paying all expenses to maintain the home if you stop paying.

Any court orders yet? Why did you pay half the mortgage after you left?

I left because of abuse.  I did not feel safe.  He had cracked up... .thought I was trying to kill him and was doing tons of drugs and drinking.  In no way did I leave him high and dry -- I've lived with my parents because I was still paying half HIS bills (both our names are on mortgage).  I paid half utilities for 4 months, paid for repairs, even paid for "lawn care" - yes he charged me for his mowing of the grass!

Am I really going to get screwed when I've done all the right things?  I'm so stressed. 

[atcrossroads]

[I understand the desire to buy a new house right away, but be aware that this issue with your ex could potentially drag on for a stupid amount of time. And you will have to have a lawyer ($$$) because real estate law is super complex.

You don't want to box yourself into a spot with no oxygen to breathe -- if this eventually goes to court and the judge orders you to keep paying half the mortgage until xyz happens, make sure you have enough money for that.

Would a judge order me to continue paying our mortgage?  We both work same job and make comparable pay!  Also, he spends a ton on drugs every month.  No wonder he is crying poor. 

[livednlearned]

[I understand the desire to buy a new house right away, but be aware that this issue with your ex could potentially drag on for a stupid amount of time. And you will have to have a lawyer ($$$) because real estate law is super complex.

You don't want to box yourself into a spot with no oxygen to breathe -- if this eventually goes to court and the judge orders you to keep paying half the mortgage until xyz happens, make sure you have enough money for that.

Would a judge order me to continue paying our mortgage?  We both work same job and make comparable pay!  Also, he spends a ton on drugs every month.  No wonder he is crying poor. 

It's going to depend on how they do things where you live. It's typically pretty straightforward when it goes before a judge, but as you pointed out, it costs a lot to do that. Then again, it can be expensive dealing with a disordered, unreasonable, substance-abusing ex.

I think you need to accept the possibility that this goes to court.  :'(  He is going to keep making demands on you. First the low ball offer. Then he demands you keep paying the mortgage. pwPD tend to be predictable. There's a good chance he will drag out the refi, and then what? Do you keep paying half the mortgage? Then he has to actually pay you the $5K. Chances are, he isn't just going to send you a check like a normal person would.

Does your attorney think that settling will get you a better deal than going to court?

[marbleloser]

My atty informed me(quite helpful) to not buy ANYTHING during the divorce procedure.No car,home,boat,motorcycle,etc.,, for this very reason. You don't know what you may end up paying during the divorce or how long the divorce will take.

Yes,the judge could very well ask you to pay half the mortgage,utilities,cable,etc,,It's a common mistake to leave the marital home,because the one left is still required to pay the expenses. If you don't pay,you could lose your half of the equity. It's a very real concern.

I understand abuse and all,but there's a proper way(court wise anyway) to do things. If you say you left because of abuse,the judge could ask you if you filed any charges.If you say no,then he/she may think the abuse wasn't that bad.

My opinion is to look at the bigger picture. It may make you angry to pay the mortgage for 90 more days,BUT,how much is that compared to the 5K buyout? If it's the same or half of 5K,I'd decline and let them make another offer.

If it's 25% of 5K,I'd seriously consider it to move things along quicker.

[ForeverDad]

AC, if you were of a different gender, say for example male, then I'd say you were stuck.  Being that you're not of the male gender then you don't start off with a strike against you.  However, him being disordered means he has more experience obstructing than you have.  Sorry, I can't tell you which way to go.  If you can get the refinance done without making concessions, then could you at that point go to court seeking your full half of the marital equity?  It's just so hard to know in advance which losses and how many you'll have to live with.

[atcrossroads]

Thank you all for the wonderful support, advice, and shared experiences.  I did decide today to move forward with the house.  It's time.  My lawyer is assuring me that it will be a good thing and stb ex will be ordered to assume our mortgage.  He's a good lawyer -- assertive, smart - not aggressive and not a pushover.  I have explained BPD/npd and shared Splitting with him.  He seems to get it.

I'm not going to lie - I'm nervous!  pd's have way of messing everything up!  I am very nervous.  But I have been STUCK for over a year, and I cannot continue to let him bully me into staying stuck.  It was a big step to leave, it's a big step to buy a house on my own, and it's a big step to counter sue.  But I feel these are things are must do or I will stay in this hellish limbo forever.  

Here are my attorney's responses to my late night email last night (his answers in red):

**I am letting them know if I'm moving forward with the house tomorrow.  I want to make absolute sure that I won't have a new mortgage and also be ordered to pay the xxx mortgage at same time.  Also, is there any way he will have any claim to new house?

I am confident he will be ordered to pay the mortgage on xxx – you will not have to pay 2 mortgages.  He cannot make a claim to your post-separation purchase of a new home.

Here are my thoughts after having the weekend to think it through.  I have concluded that he is walking all over me and will continue until I get some backbone.


1.  I will no longer accept xxK.  I will accept a xxK buyout offer as is, cash payable within 60 days (ample time to refinance).  I will NOT pay mortgage during that time.  Listing agent told me the best case with listing is we would net xxK each (that is after repairs -- allowing xxK for repairs which is high).  Worst case is selling as is and netting xxK each.  So, xxK it is... .still giving him a chance to get a nice house for xxxK, not have to move, good location, no seller's fees, etc.  HE WINS.  Further, if he intends to buy out, I would like all settled and PSA signed by xxx.  It has dragged on long enough and with new house purchase I do not have time for more delays and need time to prepare for court.



Agree on a xxK offer with no further mortgage payments.

If he doesn't go for these terms, we will let judge order house to be listed on the xxx as originally planed.



The judge will not order the house listed on xxx, but he will give xxx exclusive possession/not ownership of the house and order him to pay the mortgage.

2.  I have no plan to pay mortgage any more unless ordered by the judge on xxx to do so.  Since I paid mortgage in full for November, it makes sense for xxx to pay December in full.  Additionally, he does owe my half of xxx.  Let the judge decide who should pay mortgage.  Offering to pay mortgage while refinancing was months ago - I have since spent a couple more thousand on mortgage, and we were talking about much bigger sum of money.



Will demand the tax refund.  Agree on no payment of mortgage for December.

3.  Regarding the hearing on the xxx.  I would like to counter sue on grounds of cruelty.  According to the xxx, "A mere separation by mutual consent will not be considered desertion by either spouse. Further, if one spouse leaves because the other has committed acts that legally amount to cruelty, then the spouse who leaves is not guilty of desertion. In fact, the spouse who leaves may be awarded a divorce on the ground of cruelty or constructive desertion."  

Cruelty requires physical harm, not threats of harm or verbal abuse.  However, all the facts described below support the ground of “constructive desertion” i.e. you were forced to leave due to drug/alcohol abuse, threatening behavior, financial waste (money for drugs), lack of intimacy (separate beds, is this accurate?), erratic behavior.

I will prepare a counterclaim alleging constructive desertion and forward you a draft.

By that definition, I left because I had to leave; further, we had already been separated in the house for 5 months.  Although xxx did not physically abuse me ever, he threatened to do so, he was drinking heavily and abusing drugs regularly.  In one drunken rage he broke pictures and furniture and flung blood all over the floor and walls and told me he would "kick my ass."  It was terrifying.  He raged at me and was very aggressive with me 2 weeks prior to my leaving permanently.  I left (he had me trapped against a wall) and spent 2 nights with my parents.  I then made my plan to leave permanently for safety and did so 2 weeks later.  At the time, I was sleeping with my phone charged and keys next to my bed on the advice of my therapist who, along with my parents, was concerned for my safety.

My decision to leave was no whim, and it was done for my emotional and physical well being.  From that point on, he has done nothing short of bombard me with abusive emails and phone calls telling me (and even my mother) that we are evil and to burn in hell, etc. He has raged at me at school in front of colleagues and students.  He has been difficult beyond belief with trying to list the house.  We had to pull teeth to get our bank accounts separated.  I have emails, voicemails, and witnesses to all this.  I also have some of his online correspondence with 2 different girls  - online affairs.  I have no substantiation of anything happening, but still.

I never wanted to "get" xxx, humiliate him, or cause him to lose his job.  But, I feel I've been pushed to the wall and must defend myself.  The truth must come out.  I wouldn't want him to know that I will bring up drug abuse because he would have time to detox.  I have also had thoughts of letting work know anonymously, but I will take high road on that.  But if we both take drug tests, I believe it will be clear why he "needs" spousal support.

4.  As far as spousal support -- we make comparable salaries.  A few years ago, he melted down at work and missed a large amount with unpaid leave.  That year he made less.  He makes less now because he can't handle the stress of picking up any extra work which I do regularly.  Not my problem.

Agree.  He has a weak case for spousal support for the reasons you state.

I feel cold and inhumane writing all of this, but I cannot continue on in this way any longer.  He is bent on destroying me, and I have no choice but to defend myself.

[ForeverDad]

And if he denies poor behaviors such as using drugs, then while in court your lawyer addresses the judge, "Your honor, please order both spouses to submit to drug testing within the next 24 hours."  If he tests positive for illegal drugs or drugs not prescribed for him, it's hard to imagine a judge making decisions outlandishly in his favor.

but he will give xxx exclusive possession/not ownership of the house and order him to pay the mortgage.

There have been extensive posts here about deeds and mortgages.  If you're on the deed don't hand over the quit claim deed until the refinance actually happens.  It may have to be in lawyer's hands treated as escrow but it doesn't get filed until he has refinanced and you're off the mortgage, any second mortgages and any liens.  Also, as long as you're on the mortgage, the lenders won't care what the court orders, they'll still view you as one of the responsible parties if payments aren't made.

Repeat, a court order is great but may not be enough, if he's noncompliant then the court order has to be enforceable and it's been known that some judges later refused to enforce (or follow through on) their own orders.  That's why any settlement or order has to include consequences.  If ex does not have refinance complete within XX days then the house must be listed.  If house is not prepared and shown and sold within X months then ex loses possession, must vacate within XX days and you get possession with the sole purpose to conclude a sale.  Each Step would require consequences for noncompliance and a clear time frame for resolution.  Right now it's all under his control since he occupies and currently has effective possession.  It may have to be taken out of his control (or be impending) for you to get the marriage unwound.

[atcrossroads]

Thank you, FD.  Great advice which I will pass along to my lawyer.   

[livednlearned]

I see so much of myself in how you're dealing with this. Ugh, I wish it didn't have to be this way, but sometimes we have to hit a place of total exasperation before the titanium kicks in.

He is going to have a world-class toddler-size meltdown, so hang on tight. Get ear plugs.

Joking aside, be safe, especially when arriving at and leaving court. Does your ex drink and do drugs at night only? If so, maybe don't read anything from him that comes at night. In fact, communicate through your lawyer for now. My ex would let his anger build up all day, and then he'd come home and drink, and spew venom through email for the rest of the night. Thanks N/BPDx! I'll file these under Exhibit A, B, and C.

Constructive desertion -- hadn't heard that one before. What a euphemism  

If you think there's a chance he could vandalize your new house, maybe think about surveillance. In some ways, being a drunk stoner is a lazy way to rage. Often, they're too impaired to really think of a smart plan. I'm grateful N/BPDx has social media because it gives him an outlet, both getting narcissistic supply and distorting the truth so he feels better. But still, it's good to be safe, especially when things are hot like this.

Let us know how things go. You're doing great  

[sad but wiser]

He is actually paying half of the mortgage?  Wow!  Mine isn't paying anything he doesn't use.  He put down on his court papers that he was paying the insurance and taxes on the house we bought with money I inherited from my mother... .traceable.  Since his name is on that house along with mine it is community property.  Last year I paid it all because I thought it was my separate property.  This year I put the tax bill in the mailbox with a copy of his financial declaration with that little item highlighted.  I am $14k in debt and he is stalling, stalling, stalling.  Mainly because he gets $1100 a month in spousal support and free rent.  No effort on his part to become employed... .by his own admission in court.  He even started the legal action.  Over a year ago now.  I teach too.  Same boat, honey.  What price freedom?  We may find out.  In my state, if we go in for the mandatory settlement conference, regardless of the outcome, I can file a request for a trial.  Needless to say he always, "needs more time."  Ha!  Very passive aggressive.  There isn't time enough in the universe.  Hang in there.  If you end up going bankrupt, make sure it is on his credit too.  (The Band Perry, ":)one"