Any discussion is perceived as an 'argument'

[empath]

Arrgg.

UBPDh and I have beenI talking and discussing different topics; I offer feedback about his plans and offer my perceptions of situations. We've also had some financial challenges that were unexpected.

Anyway, he hasn't been as physically demonstrative, and the other night, I said I missed that aspect of our life. He said that we've been arguing, so he hasn't felt like it. I said oh? I didn't think we were arguing. He said he 'felt' like we were - I responded ok, I understand if you felt like we were.

So, for the past day or so, I haven't interacted with him much. It seems to have helped him to be able to regulate himself a bit.

Anyway, I'm trying to figure out how to have a conversation in which I have a different point of view that he does without him thinking it's an argument... .   Because not expressing an opinion is not really an option when he asks.

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[SleepsOnSofa]

Funny, I have the exact opposite experience.

When my uBPDw is telling me about something that makes her unhappy with or about me, we're having a "discussion." If I don't speak up for myself, it doesn't count as an argument. So I've had her tell me a couple of times recently that she doesn't understand why I'm so quiet, because we haven't had a fight for days. There is no point in my telling her that the reason we haven't fought for days is because I haven't engaged when she's started in on me. I've held my feelings - my frustration, my anger, my sadness, my hopelessness - inside, unvoiced, to avoid escalating a "discussion" into something that she'd count as an argument; I've learned that if I engage, I'm looking at two to six hours of being yelled at and talked over, followed by a day of stressful work on little or no sleep.

So she takes credit for staying calm for almost a week. While on the inside, I'm sick to the point of literally throwing up twice in the past week. (She tells me there's been a "virus" going around our daughter's school... . )

[MammaMia]

sleepsonsofa

Hi.  Have not seen you around for a while.  It does not sound like your situation has improved much except for fewer arguments. 

Do you realize you are internalizing your emotions and making yourself physically ill ... . just because you are trying to keep the peace?  This is not healthy.

I wish I  knew what to tell you to make your life better.  Did you ever connect with a therapist?

[GopherAgent]

empath... .

Yes... . I've experienced the same thing. When trying to have a discussion with her while she is dis-regulated, she says everything I say is an "argument".

So no matter what tone of voice I use, my posture, my expressions of how I respond to her, it is always an "argument". And its always started by me. Never her.

So expect that in every conversation you have it will be interpreted by him as an being "argument". I'm convinced that that's her perspective and how she sees our interaction. It's never a discussion or an attempt to swap opinions or in any way, shape or form a way for me to share my feelings about anything. Its always an "argument".

So, now that I know this word will come up and get used when she is upset by something, I don't get so "argumentative" about it because I see that she has already interpreted the interaction as an "argument" anyway.

Yes... . Arrgg... . You will still have your conversations and opinions with him... . but expect that he will always see you as "argumentative". So, don't let his future perception prevent you from having the conversations... . just have them knowing he will always be the "argumentative" one. Not you.

[In_n_Out]

1. Take their emotional "reading".  Are they dysregulated?  If so...

A. Validate their emotions, ASK if they are feeling a certain emotion, validate that emotion, ASK IF they would like for you to do anything to help them, validate their emotion, take another reading.  Reassure them that the emotion that they are feeling is a valid emotion and that others feel that same emotion. Keep validating.

B. If still dysregulated, repeat step A over and over again.

C. Do they seem to have gone back to their "baseline"?  If yes, go to step 3A.  If no, repeat step 1A.

2. Check your own reading.  Are you getting dysregulated?  Stressed, emotional, angry, sad?  

A. Disengage while reassuring that you will return to conversation once you have had a time to process your thoughts.  Reassure again - you are not leaving them - just the situation for a brief period of time.  

B. Have you cooled down?  Go to step 1A

C. Still worked up?  Repeat step 2A.  Cooled down?  Go to step 3A.

3.  Ready to try that conversation again?

A. Do NOT offer your suggestions, ideas or solutions yet.  LISTEN to what they have to say.

B. Validate any emotions that they are feeling.

C. ASK if they would like to hear your thoughts on what they are saying.  If he/she says "yes", then proceed to step 4.  If "no", go to D below.

D. See if you can make physical contact; reach to hold their hand, a hug, or just look warmly in to their eyes.  Force a smile if you can and if the situation warrants.  Else, mirror their face.  :)o they look sad?  You look sad.  Why?  That validates their emotion.  If he/she still doesn't want to hear your solutions/advice, ask if you can readdress the situation at a later time because they may still be somewhat dysregulated and are withholding their emotions.

4. Do they want your advice?  :)on't force it upon them.  Present it in an "if/then/else" context.  Example: "do you think that if you tried to do <this>, then maybe <that> would work better for you?  Or else do you think that trying to do <this> would be a different way to handle <that>?".

Let THEM make the decision.  You throw out suggestions, THEY pick it in a way that THEY feel like they solved their own problem.  (See!  You can do it! ... . is what they think to themselves... . VALIDATION).

------------------

Body language and expression is very important to pwBPD.  If you sit there stoned face, they feel that you don't give a squat about what they are telling you and to them, you are INVALIDATING their emotions.  See the step above about mirroring their facial expression.  FEEL their sadness.  Even feel their anger, but yours should be much more controlled.  The goal here is to get to a smile.  

Soothing is important to a pwBPD.  If you can get to a point to where you can make physical contact, go for it.  See if you can hold their hand as they speak.  See if you can get a hug.  That will break down their dysregulation and help regulate them back to their baseline.

See https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206.msg913190#msg913190 for more info.  Some good books are out there on this subject as well.

---------------------

So what I'm reading in the posts here are that the person is dysregulated and you're trying to talk "rational" to them.  Ain't gonna work no matter how hard you try to spoon feed them.  In fact, it will backfire as you have found out.  You must get them back to their "baseline" before you can even go there with a "rational" discussion.

This is what has been working for me.

[waverider]

Ask yourself is this issue important to me?

Are they agitated or dysregulated?

Am I just voicing how I see things, or am I trying to convince them that my viewpoint is correct?

Depending on the answers to these question you then have to balance your right to hold a view point and whether airing it is going to be of benefit.

Regardless of what you do you will probably get the argumentative label. Again this is their opinion, not yours. This is a difference of opinion again, do you need to convince them that you dont believe you are argumentative?

You know you are not, that's all that really matters. The first questions raised are your reality check so that you can be confident in your "truth".

[SleepsOnSofa]

sleepsonsofa

Hi.  Have not seen you around for a while.  It does not sound like your situation has improved much except for fewer arguments. 

Do you realize you are internalizing your emotions and making yourself physically ill ... . just because you are trying to keep the peace?  This is not healthy.

I wish I  knew what to tell you to make your life better.  Did you ever connect with a therapist?

Hi, mammamia. Been very busy at work, not much time or energy for anything else. I'll pm you rather than further hijack this thread.

[empath]

Regardless of what you do you will probably get the argumentative label. Again this is their opinion, not yours. This is a difference of opinion again, do you need to convince them that you dont believe you are argumentative?

The problem lies in the tendency in the pwBPD's perception of arguments as 'all black' and just opposing them rather than just a difference of opinion. If it is something that I am partially responsible for, I need to be able to voice a different opinion, preferably without long, drawn out drama.

When my uBPDw is telling me about something that makes her unhappy with or about me, we're having a "discussion." If I don't speak up for myself, it doesn't count as an argument.

Ah, yes. Their 'discussions' don't actually involve other people... .   They just talk at you for a while. If you respond, it is an 'argument'. Over the years, I've gotten really good at non-commental responses. Then, he says that he feels like he doesn't know me... .  

[Sanity searcher]

I can sympathize

It's always an argument with you was one of her favorite lines. That and "our relationship is fine you just don't know how to communicate and handle things". Yet I was the only one who ever tried to have meaningful discussions about the issues in our relationship. It was never successful she would immediately get defensive and it always blew up into the blame game with her finalizing it with " you love to argue I'm not fighting with you anymore". She would withdraw and then I'd be pushed aside and be punished with emotional blackmail... . for trying to "communicate" with her.

Hang in there... . I know that the days of limited interaction were the hardest for me to deal with.

[waverider]

The ability to air your opinion, especially on important issues is crucial for your sense of self. However, where we mess up with a pwBPD is that we then go on to debate it in order to try to convince, or sell it to them. Best just to state it concisely and say that is how things look to me. Then leave it at that.

They are not in a debate, problem solving mode. They are in a monologue off loading mode and you are just interrupting and invalidating that process to them. Their aim is not to communicate it is to talk to vent emotions out. If you make this difficult it is seen as an attack.

Again we are sidetracked by the issue rather than mood/emotion. In truth pwBPD are rarely that interested in issues, no matter how emotive they seem about them they could be talking about anything, only in the need to vent/dump/display excitement. etc. The issue is just the venue and we are disrupting the flow if we start debating the venue.

Effective communication is to let somebody know something they need to know, or would like to know. pwBPDs lack of empathy doesn't consider this, they communicate because they have a need to talk, what you want is irrelevant. Hence the monologue regardless of whether the listener is contributing (or allowed to) or even showing any interest.

Ineffective, or misuse, use of communication is at the core of of most PDs

[MammaMia]

Waverider

You totally nailed it.  My 39yo dBPDs says we have "never" had an honest, real conversation in his entire life!  When he "communicates", he does exactly as you said... . talks and talks, and talks BUT has ZERO interest in any perspective but his own.  That perspective, sadly, is not based in reality.

I have learned to listen, occasionally nod my head and/or say little or nothing. It does no good to try to reason with him unless the discussion involves something illegal or suggests the possibility of self-harm. Often, he appears to be just thinking out loud.  Yes, it does demean a person's self-worth to be unable to express an opinion, but I am a big girl and I can deal with that.

Many arguments can be avoided by using this technique. The moral of my story is to choose your battles carefully.

[ziniztar]

Again we are sidetracked by the issue rather than mood/emotion. In truth pwBPD are rarely that interested in issues, no matter how emotive they seem about them they could be talking about anything, only in the need to vent/dump/display excitement. etc. The issue is just the venue and we are disrupting the flow if we start debating the venue.

Effective communication is to let somebody know something they need to know, or would like to know. pwBPDs lack of empathy doesn't consider this, they communicate because they have a need to talk, what you want is irrelevant. Hence the monologue regardless of whether the listener is contributing (or allowed to) or even showing any interest.

Ineffective, or misuse, use of communication is at the core of of most PDs

Interesting! I recognize this behavior when my dBPDbf is feeling negative for some reason and searching for a way to fight. Yet I also experience so called 'good talks'. A few weeks ago he sat in a restaurant and stopped his interpretation-of-my-side-of-the-story-rant and said: "no, wait, I want to make sure what your issue is with this so I will shut up and listen now". And he did.

Even today he asked why I was more moody than normal and I explained some personal stuff about the emotional abuse I've suffered as a child, and how I sometimes need him to behave. Granted, he said he can't read between the lines and needs me to tell him when I need something (putting the responsibility in my hands), but did come up with a solution that would help us both: a little cooking alarm clock for special 'me-time' where I could demand 10 minutes of his full attention - no phones, no cats, no tv, nothing to create a triangle with. I thought it was quite constructive.

I feel like I can't have constructive conversations with him when he's negative, but CAN when he's feeling better. I use those moments to calmly make agreements on how to treat each other and - if all hell breaks loose - remind him of those agreements we once made. One would be to never got to sleep in a fight. Of course when I reminded him of it when he was angry he mumbled "I have absolutely no recollection of such an agreement" but for me it is a way of "relationship boundary setting".

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Waverider

You totally nailed it.  My 39yo dBPDs says we have "never" had an honest, real conversation in his entire life!  When he "communicates", he does exactly as you said... . talks and talks, and talks BUT has ZERO interest in any perspective but his own.  That perspective, sadly, is not based in reality.

Bingo!  Just this morning my uBPDw accused me of never having a conversation with her, even though we spent 2 hours in bed yesterday morning talking before getting up.

Nothing counts as a conversation if it ends with us not agreeing (or in her words, it's not resolved).  She still doesn't see that for her, resolved = agreeing with her... . somehow we can have 500 conversations about the same topic, yet we never talk and nothing is 'resolved'... .

[Obibens]

Excellent posts!   I have lived on both sides of this perception.  If she's telling me about my faults or complaining about something else - it's a discussion, no matter how loud or mean she gets.  As long as I agree with her at some point.   If I disagree with her, it's an argument, no matter how calm and brief the discussion.  While I have come to accept that usually disagreement sets her off into an argument mode, I have had some success recently with 'agreeable disagreement' (I like to make up words and phrases).

Example -  She currently has some serious issues with my mother (mostly because my mom knows about her issues but doesnt really use the best tactics in dealing with her).  Her mother on the other hand, is very borderline/bipolar.  So she made the statement my mother has the same personality disorders or is very mentally ill.  I scoffed (bad mistake) and said that I don't share that view.  I could see her starting to dysregulate, and I was able to defuse the situation by stating that - 'Yes, my mom has issues.  We just view the severity of them a little differently."  That seemed to bring her back down and was then able to change the subject and avoid the blow up.

It's certainly not easy.  I feel a little uneasy  in using the language that way to appear that I was agreeing that my mom was mentally ill (her phrasing) when I was really stating that my mom does have issues - but they are 'normal' ones.  We'll see if this comes back to haunt me at some point, but it at least saved one big argument.

[ziniztar]

Any disagreement is seen as invalidation of a pwBPD feelings, correct? Therefore experienced as an argument.

I recognize the effective use of the "agree to disagree" strategy.

When I tell my dBPDbf that I do not share his vision but accept where he is coming from, he can still say "I really don't get it why you can't see this". Then I add "In a relationship I don't think we always have to understand each other in order to do things for each other." That usually ends the discussion. I'm guessing that then the underlying emotion of being heard - transferred in an issue-vehicle - is being met, even though you don't agree with the issue. Which is in the end validating enough, because it tells the pwBPD that you make an effort in their direction. Does that make any sense?

[waverider]

Disagreement is part of life if a pwBPD is to live in the real world they cannot be completely protected from it.

It is OK to disagree with a pwBPD, the thing is not to add unnecessary fuel by trying to sell your view to them.

Hiding the disagreement behind ambiguous terminology that can be deliberately taken either way is setting yourself up down the track when you are accused of being inconsistent, when it becomes obvious you didn't mean it the way they heard it. They will then accuse you of not taking them seriously with all the invalidation and insecurity issues that carries. You can stray into the realm of appearing to validate the the invalid. To a pwBPD perception=truth. So you have to keep your truths as clear and unambiguous as possible

Ziniztar is correct in the sense that to show you hear them, understand what they are saying enough that that you have given it thought, covers you as far as you need to validate. Exercise your right to your view, then not tried to push it on them. They just have to self sooth if they have an issue with that. Be consistent and they will get used to it.

Issues will come, then go, and be done with if that becomes standard. pwBPD can cope better with consistency, rather than endless suspicion about your sincerity