Loved a specific paragraph from "The Betrayal Bond"

[Madison66]

Just finished reading "The Betrayal Bond" by Patrick J. Carnes.  Someone on this board recommended the book the last few chapters really were in line with my own recovery.  One paragraph in Chapter 5 "What is the path of awareness" really stood out to me:

“Viktor Frankl observed that those who survived concentration camps often had one essential characteristic: They were able to transform suffering into meaning.  I believe survivors of any form of abuse have that essential task.  Out of the indescribable pain comes belief and depth of purpose.  They become people of substance, with no more tolerance for living in the lie.  They know evil for what it is and arm themselves with rituals that keep the meaning close to their hearts.  They have high regard for that which connects, and reject all that divides and hides.  Inescapable pain creates enduring honesty and accountability. To take the position that 'I am the way I am because of how my family was or because of how they abused me' is to miss the point. You are a participant.  As with any addiction, you are powerless, but you have a responsibility to do something about it now.  You are responsible for your behavior.“

I have been actively working on my recovery and am coming out of the processing stage and transitioning to the creative action stage.  I own it and am ultimately responsible for myself.  I feel energized and empowered.  As Ed Roland of Collective Soul sings on "Better Now" - "It's time to celebrate me!"

[Turkish]

Just finished reading "The Betrayal Bond" by Patrick J. Carnes.  Someone on this board recommended the book the last few chapters really were in line with my own recovery.  One paragraph in Chapter 5 "What is the path of awareness" really stood out to me:

“Viktor Frankl observed that those who survived concentration camps often had one essential characteristic: They were able to transform suffering into meaning.  I believe survivors of any form of abuse have that essential task.  Out of the indescribable pain comes belief and depth of purpose.  They become people of substance, with no more tolerance for living in the lie.  They know evil for what it is and arm themselves with rituals that keep the meaning close to their hearts.  They have high regard for that which connects, and reject all that divides and hides.  Inescapable pain creates enduring honesty and accountability. To take the position that “I am the way I am because of how my family was or because of how they abused me is to miss the point. You are a participant.  As with any addiction, you are powerless, but you have a responsibility to do something about it now.  You are responsible for your behavior.“

I have been actively working on my recovery and am coming out of the processing stage and transitioning to the creative action stage.  I own it and am ultimately responsible for myself.  I feel energized and empowered.  As Ed Roland of Collective Soul sings on "Better Now" - "It's time to celebrate me!"

That is so powerful, Madison, thanks for sharing. I see the difference between my Ex and I in this as well. Her comments about "maybe this had to happen!" and "I felt like I lost my childhood!"

On paper, I had it worse than she did, much worse (except for the cheating, abandoning father... . I just never had a father). The difference between her and me is that I've been fighting my way out of his for decades, while she's reverted to her old patterns because they're safe and comfortable.

I like that CS song. It came up randomly on my iPod the other day, and I cranked the volume to 11.

[Tausk]

Just finished reading "The Betrayal Bond" by Patrick J. Carnes.  Someone on this board recommended the book the last few chapters really were in line with my own recovery.  One paragraph in Chapter 5 "What is the path of awareness" really stood out to me:

“Viktor Frankl observed that those who survived concentration camps often had one essential characteristic: They were able to transform suffering into meaning.  I believe survivors of any form of abuse have that essential task.  Out of the indescribable pain comes belief and depth of purpose.  They become people of substance, with no more tolerance for living in the lie.  They know evil for what it is and arm themselves with rituals that keep the meaning close to their hearts.  They have high regard for that which connects, and reject all that divides and hides.  Inescapable pain creates enduring honesty and accountability. To take the position that 'I am the way I am because of how my family was or because of how they abused me' is to miss the point. You are a participant.  As with any addiction, you are powerless, but you have a responsibility to do something about it now.  You are responsible for your behavior.“

I have been actively working on my recovery and am coming out of the processing stage and transitioning to the creative action stage.  I own it and am ultimately responsible for myself.  I feel energized and empowered.  As Ed Roland of Collective Soul sings on "Better Now" - "It's time to celebrate me!"

Thanks for the share.  I read Frankl's book as part of my recovery.  Me, and from what I've seen, other people on this side of board need meaning in their lives. 

In 12 step recovery it's sometimes referred to as filling the spiritual void. 

I tried to us my ex to fill the void.  Mistake.  Finding meaning helps the void.  I don't have children, so it's especially difficult, but I'm getting there.

Some people claim the interaction with the ex was a blessing because it brought us here.  I'm not sure I totally agree with that premise, but I do know that hitting bottom for me has been the impetus to seek a higher meaning in my life.  To look deep down.  The b/u hurts so much because the wound was not created by my ex, but rather during my childhood.  Now is the time to heal that wound. 

Thanks for the share,

T

[Madison66]

It is a great song!  The other one that is one the band's hidden gems is "Forgiveness".  I have the  framed and signed lyrics to that song on my nightstand.  Here it is:

"Forgiveness" - Collective Soul

In my silence I would love to forget

But restitution hasn't come quite yet

And with one accord I keep pushing forth

I stretch my heart to heal some more

It used to be all I'd want to learn

Was wisdom trust and truth

But now all I really want to learn

Is forgiveness for you

As my seasons change I've now grown to know

When one's heart creates, one's soul doesn't owe

So I wash away stains of yesterday

Then tempt my heart with love's display

[Turkish]

I tried to us my ex to fill the void.  Mistake.  Finding meaning helps the void.  I don't have children, so it's especially difficult, but I'm getting there.

Here is where it gets dicy for me, Tausk. Wanting to have "the dream" of being married to a partner (not a child) and having children is natural. It reminds me of that philosophical argument which basically concludes altruism is ultimately selfish because the doer and giver gets something out of it. Kids can fill something, some need, or some void, that is for sure. For a pwBPD, they are an attachment. When the attachment is ready to detach as a new being, the worst triggers happen. I have no doubt my mom loved me, and loves me, but her depression and BPD-like behaviors escalated as I grew. She adopted me as a single mother to fill a vast emptiness within herself. My uBPDx desperately wanted children to have the unconditional love of a little child.  They both, however, define their meaning from these attachments (even were it not for things my uBPDx wrote that say as much in a way). My mom rescued many adult waifs after I moved out. I even had to deal with the horrible aftermath of one.

I look at mine children as... . pine cones, perhaps. Growing from my tree. They are attached, I have a purpose for them and they have a purpose for me. At some point, they will detach and grow into new trees, perpetuating our species and my family. When they are gone, does it make me any less of a 100 ft tall Ponderosa? No. I retain myself. My Self remains, I sing the Song of Myself, and as Walt Whitman said in that, "I sound my barbaric yawp from the rooftops of the world." The challenge is not to find someone to give us meaning, it's to find someone with whom to share.

[Madison66]

It's interesting about BPD and attachment.  My ex gf practiced "attachment parenting" with her three kids (s6, s8 and d10).  I fully believe there are good aspects about the different parenting styles, but the "attachment parenting" style seemed to be the absolute worst thing for the kids based on her strong BPD and NPD traits.  She was so desperate to maintain unconditional love and attachment with the kids that it resembled a "cocoon".  Crazy chaos due to no structure or boundaries in the house.  She would also not transition the kids to their own beds - yeah, all four in a double size bed.  The three kids all have childhood anxiety disorder.  One is OCD and shows signs of BPD.  The middle child has autism spectrum disorder.  The youngest exhibits significant non age appropriate impulse control.  Again, it just seems wacky for a BPD mom to try to use "attachment parenting".  She'd also tell me that any deviation from her parenting style would harm the relationship (attachment) with the child.  Furthermore, she would say that the only "unconditional" love you can have in your life is with your children.  All adults will end up leaving her... .

[Turkish]

It's interesting about BPD and attachment.  My ex gf practiced "attachment parenting" with her three kids (s6, s8 and d10).  I fully believe there are good aspects about the different parenting styles, but the "attachment parenting" style seemed to be the absolute worst thing for the kids based on her strong BPD and NPD traits.  She was so desperate to maintain unconditional love and attachment with the kids that it resembled a "cocoon".  Crazy chaos due to no structure or boundaries in the house.  She would also not transition the kids to their own beds - yeah, all four in a double size bed.  The three kids all have childhood anxiety disorder.  One is OCD and shows signs of BPD.  The middle child has autism spectrum disorder.  The youngest exhibits significant non age appropriate impulse control.  Again, it just seems wacky for a BPD mom to try to use "attachment parenting".  She'd also tell me that any deviation from her parenting style would harm the relationship (attachment) with the child.  Furthermore, she would say that the only "unconditional" love you can have in your life is with your children.  All adults will end up leaving her... .

oh my,  those poor kids! I  will look into that parenting style... .   as a   

I  guess I  was lucky to convince mine too lean my way,  though in her culture the baby sleeps in the bed for the first year.

[Tausk]

I tried to use my ex to fill the void.  Mistake.  Finding meaning helps the void.  I don't have children, so it's especially difficult, but I'm getting there.

Here is where it gets dicy for me, Tausk. Wanting to have "the dream" of being married to a partner (not a child) and having children is natural. It reminds me of that philosophical argument which basically concludes altruism is ultimately selfish because the doer and giver gets something out of it. Kids can fill something, some need, or some void, that is for sure. For a pwBPD, they are an attachment. When the attachment is ready to detach as a new being, the worst triggers happen. I have no doubt my mom loved me, and loves me, but her depression and BPD-like behaviors escalated as I grew. She adopted me as a single mother to fill a vast emptiness within herself. My uBPDx desperately wanted children to have the unconditional love of a little child.  They both, however, define their meaning from these attachments (even were it not for things my uBPDx wrote that say as much in a way). My mom rescued many adult waifs after I moved out. I even had to deal with the horrible aftermath of one.

I look at mine children as... . pine cones, perhaps. Growing from my tree. They are attached, I have a purpose for them and they have a purpose for me. At some point, they will detach and grow into new trees, perpetuating our species and my family. When they are gone, does it make me any less of a 100 ft tall Ponderosa? No. I retain myself. My Self remains, I sing the Song of Myself, and as Walt Whitman said in that, "I sound my barbaric yawp from the rooftops of the world." The challenge is not to find someone to give us meaning, it's to find someone with whom to share.

Turk:

I'm a bit confused... . maybe.  When you are saying, "here is where it gets dicey for me... ", are you saying that you don't agree with the statement?  Or that you are vulnerable to becoming lost in allowing a waif to become our meaning life?

Because your last sentence is dead on for what I want in my life.  I don't want to make someone else be my meaning in life.  I want someone else to share and support in the goals in my meaning and visa versa.

As an example, just as for healthy parents, raising children and providing them with the guidance and fulfilling thier needs to grow into happy adults has meaning. That is the raising of the children is the meaning, not the children themselves as an object to fill the emptiness. 

I let me ex become my meaning.  And for my ex, that is what fills her void, having someone attached to her.  Not the support and sharing and growing to experience life on a higher plane.  Just the attachment to the Disorder. 

But in essence how can our lives have meaning if its meaning is itself a person with no sense of self and with limitless and contradictory needs.  :'(

[Allmessedup]

Oh my!

I was just journaling about this today actually.  My ex has 2 kids. D22and S20 or there abouts.

She also cocooned her kids.  At age 19 her daughter was still sleeping in her bed because "she didn't like her own". However she moved out quite happily when I entered the picture.

She was determined her kids hated her cuz she was sick and couldn't prepare meals etc for them all the time.  She was still doing their laundry even though she worked full time and they were hugely capable.

There were a whole lot of things she did that were not my style of parenting, but I didn't think much of it until earlier today when I was journaling.

I remembered her son saying to me about how she was not speaking to me and I was visibly upset... . he told me just to relax that she did this all the time with him and it would pass as long as I didn't antagonize her.

Now I have 4 kids aged 19-7 and I have never once given any of them the silent treatment!

[Turkish]

I tried to use my ex to fill the void.  Mistake.  Finding meaning helps the void.  I don't have children, so it's especially difficult, but I'm getting there.

Here is where it gets dicy for me, Tausk. Wanting to have "the dream" of being married to a partner (not a child) and having children is natural. It reminds me of that philosophical argument which basically concludes altruism is ultimately selfish because the doer and giver gets something out of it. Kids can fill something, some need, or some void, that is for sure. For a pwBPD, they are an attachment. When the attachment is ready to detach as a new being, the worst triggers happen. I have no doubt my mom loved me, and loves me, but her depression and BPD-like behaviors escalated as I grew. She adopted me as a single mother to fill a vast emptiness within herself. My uBPDx desperately wanted children to have the unconditional love of a little child.  They both, however, define their meaning from these attachments (even were it not for things my uBPDx wrote that say as much in a way). My mom rescued many adult waifs after I moved out. I even had to deal with the horrible aftermath of one.

I look at mine children as... . pine cones, perhaps. Growing from my tree. They are attached, I have a purpose for them and they have a purpose for me. At some point, they will detach and grow into new trees, perpetuating our species and my family. When they are gone, does it make me any less of a 100 ft tall Ponderosa? No. I retain myself. My Self remains, I sing the Song of Myself, and as Walt Whitman said in that, "I sound my barbaric yawp from the rooftops of the world." The challenge is not to find someone to give us meaning, it's to find someone with whom to share.

Turk:

I'm a bit confused... . maybe.  When you are saying, "here is where it gets dicey for me... ", are you saying that you don't agree with the statement?  Or that you are vulnerable to becoming lost in allowing a waif to become our meaning life?

Because your last sentence is dead on for what I want in my life.  I don't want to make someone else be my meaning in life.  I want someone else to share and support in the goals in my meaning and visa versa.

As an example, just as for healthy parents, raising children and providing them with the guidance and fulfilling thier needs to grow into happy adults has meaning. That is the raising of the children is the meaning, not the children themselves as an object to fill the emptiness.  

This is what I mean. I agree. That is why I never considered single parent adoption, though my mom made many comments over the years suggesting I do the same thing she did. Other than being a Waif Rescuer ^tm, im not that much like her. I love my mom, and see the happiness her grandchildren bring to her, but I also resented the implication I be a grandchild generator. As for the point, I feel a flicker of doubt on whether I chose to have kids to fill that void.