Sacking Your Friends

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

One of the most surprising things about recovery from Borderline abuse is the journey it puts us on: the journey back to self. I am 18 months down the NC road. 12 months since I stopped thinking of things in terms of that relationship; 4 months from never really thinking about him at all.

And yet, every day I DO think about the journey. I am not monitoring myself for any PTSD or triggers, but observing my behaviour very consciously with every encounter with another human being. Am I trying to please? Do I actually want to go to that event? Am I still DOING things to feel loved instead of just BEING? What is their intention? What is mine? Etc.

And I am ok with all of that. In fact I relish it and feel very awake for the first time!

But the one thing that disturbs me the most is the sheer volume of my longest standing friends who are falling by the way side! I mentioned this in a similar post a couple of months ago, but it is increasing exponentially! And my question is this:

Am I getting rid of them because they demonstrate the same NPD/BPD traits I have learned about from this recent borderline abuse experience? Or are my own FOO issues about abandonment, neglect and with-holding still at play?

By way of example, my best friend from childhood recently returned from living in Hong Kong for 12 years. He returned home in late 2013 but I didn't learn about it until a mutual friend told me FEB at my mother's funeral. So we reconnected. Had lunch. And it was all good / normal. But there was no denying that I felt needy and left out by some of the big stuff in his life that he had not shared. So the new me played it cool. Examined my expectations and whether my ego was at play here vs. a mature and detached person. I let it go and resolved to look forward, not back. But everything since has been very one sided. Me giving. Him taking. Me initiating. Him cancelling or putting in very little effort.

This week he mentioned he had hurt his back so I suggested coming over to his house with a DVD and hanging out. His wife and kids were away and he couldn't move around easily, so I volunteered to get food etc. All good. But 10 minutes from his house while I am driving he cancels. And this was the 4th such cancellation since January. In short, I have only seen him once in the 6 months he has been back in our home town. There is no ONE thing to point at for blame. But I can't deny feeling 'less than', diminished, neglected, confused.

So yesterday, I sent him an email basically telling him I was cool with our r/ship changing and not being as close as we used to be. That if he didn't want me around any more, that was ok. And that it was better to say as much than leaving me working to an old paradigm when he was on a new one. No response.

But more broadly, the most startling lessons from my recovery from Narcissistic Abuse is the number of old friends who are no longer a fit for me... . or whose lives I am no longer a fit for. And the volume is scaring me as much as the realisation that these are not nice people. That I have spent 25 years with awful people. It is starting to make me feel a bit broken or wishing the old me could come back and be ok with these people again. But I can't.

I am mostly fine and have an abundance of generous, sorted, sane friends. And I am getting even closer to these ones as I see more of them... . as I stop spreading myself so thinly across as larger rollerdex of frenemies! But what I demand of a friendship has changed enormously. Courtesy, punctuality, communication, generosity, reciprocity are no longer optional but mandatory. And very few of my old friends possess those qualities!

Can we be too extreme in culling these older relationships?

If we feel worse about ourselves, instead of better, after seeing these people then is it wrong to cut and run than honour a twisted legacy?

All advice appreciated

BB12

[bb12]

One of the most surprising things about recovery from Borderline abuse is the journey it puts us on: the journey back to self. I am 18 months down the NC road. 12 months since I stopped thinking of things in terms of that relationship; 4 months from never really thinking about him at all.

And yet, every day I DO think about the journey. I am not monitoring myself for any PTSD or triggers, but observing my behaviour very consciously with every encounter with another human being. Am I trying to please? Do I actually want to go to that event? Am I still DOING things to feel loved instead of just BEING? What is their intention? What is mine? Etc.

And I am ok with all of that. In fact I relish it and feel very awake for the first time!

But the one thing that disturbs me the most is the sheer volume of my longest standing friends who are falling by the way side! I mentioned this in a similar post a couple of months ago, but it is increasing exponentially! And my question is this:

Am I getting rid of them because they demonstrate the same NPD/BPD traits I have learned about from this recent borderline abuse experience? Or are my own FOO issues about abandonment, neglect and with-holding still at play?

By way of example, my best friend from childhood recently returned from living in Hong Kong for 12 years. He returned home in late 2013 but I didn't learn about it until a mutual friend told me FEB at my mother's funeral. So we reconnected. Had lunch. And it was all good / normal. But there was no denying that I felt needy and left out by some of the big stuff in his life that he had not shared. So the new me played it cool. Examined my expectations and whether my ego was at play here vs. a mature and detached person. I let it go and resolved to look forward, not back. But everything since has been very one sided. Me giving. Him taking. Me initiating. Him cancelling or putting in very little effort.

This week he mentioned he had hurt his back so I suggested coming over to his house with a DVD and hanging out. His wife and kids were away and he couldn't move around easily, so I volunteered to get food etc. All good. But 10 minutes from his house while I am driving he cancels. And this was the 4th such cancellation since January. In short, I have only seen him once in the 6 months he has been back in our home town. There is no ONE thing to point at for blame. But I can't deny feeling 'less than', diminished, neglected, confused.

So yesterday, I sent him an email basically telling him I was cool with our r/ship changing and not being as close as we used to be. That if he didn't want me around any more, that was ok. And that it was better to say as much than leaving me working to an old paradigm when he was on a new one. No response.

But more broadly, the most startling lessons from my recovery from Narcissistic Abuse is the number of old friends who are no longer a fit for me... . or whose lives I am no longer a fit for. And the volume is scaring me as much as the realisation that these are not nice people. That I have spent 25 years with awful people. It is starting to make me feel a bit broken or wishing the old me could come back and be ok with these people again. But I can't.

I am mostly fine and have an abundance of generous, sorted, sane friends. And I am getting even closer to these ones as I see more of them... . as I stop spreading myself so thinly across as larger rollerdex of frenemies! But what I demand of a friendship has changed enormously. Courtesy, punctuality, communication, generosity, reciprocity are no longer optional but mandatory. And very few of my old friends possess those qualities!

Can we be too extreme in culling these older relationships?

If we feel worse about ourselves, instead of better, after seeing these people then is it wrong to cut and run than honour a twisted legacy?

All advice appreciated

BB12

[fromheeltoheal]

I can totally relate BB.  I've always been a people pleaser, someone who puts other people's needs ahead of my own, I suppose the motivation being that if I meet other people's needs I'll get mine met by them too, that's the way the world works, although no it doesn't, some people are going to want to meet my needs, some aren't, regardless.  Plus a lot of times in my own insecurity I didn't think my needs mattered, so I just became a 'nice guy' to avoid conflict mostly, and also because that's who I thought I was 'supposed to be'.

But then the gift of borderline hell showed up, that black hole of need that would have taken every speck of time, energy, money and sanity that I could give, and finally, finally, I got pushed too far.  Like you I am ok with all of that. In fact I relish it and feel very awake for the first time!.  Suddenly I've gotten very selfish, in a good way; is this person meeting my needs?  Do they care about and respect me and those needs?  It's had a ripple effect, and I too have removed lots of people from my life, and honestly, they needed to go.  I'm not spending a lot of time analyzing whether or not someone has NPD/BPD traits, although it's glaringly obvious with a couple of women in my past, what I am doing is noticing if someone is meeting my needs or not.  Some are a little, some aren't at all.  And if I think a relationship has a chance, I've specifically asked for what I need.  Example: I told an old girlfriend, someone I've known for 30 years, that what I need right now are compassion, validation and empathy; her response?  'You should be able to give those to yourself.'  Yeah, fine sunshine, sorry, gotta go.

Can we be too extreme in culling these older relationships? I say it doesn't matter.  This is all new for me, I'm practicing, and I don't have to be good at it overnight.  Plus, the folks who really should be in my life will work through my stumbles with me, support me even.  The challenge I have lately is creating new relationships, good ones, right ones, it's an issue right now.  My gardener is coming over today, to work on my gardens in a beautiful springtime, and I'm looking forward to it because she's become a good friend that I can really talk to; that's where I'm at, she comes over here because I pay her, whatever, we're real friends regardless.  It's a brand new world, exciting and scary at the same time.  Forward... .

[bb12]

Can we be too extreme in culling these older relationships? I say it doesn't matter.  This is all new for me, I'm practicing, and I don't have to be good at it overnight.  Plus, the folks who really should be in my life will work through my stumbles with me, support me even. 

Spot on fromheeltoheal! Thanks for your post

Agreed... . it's my old 'unrelenting standards' schema - expecting to be good at something immediately. But you are right. I am only now learning boundary setting for the first time so can't deride myself too much for the stumbles.

One friend who I let go last year has come back into my life. And she has worked through my stumbles and conceded some of her own mistakes, so we're back on track. She's still part of my new life.

I guess my issue is the number of these relationships that I am recognising as unrewarding simultaeously. I am not so much regretting the decisions, just doubting myself because of the volume. But in my gut I know I am right. Besides, I would rather be alone than with these kinds of people anyway!

bb12

[fromheeltoheal]

I would rather be alone than with these kinds of people anyway!  Exactly, and that started with my borderline; it finally got so bad that I had a blinding flash of the obvious and left her, and with time became shocked at what I had put up with.  That's had a ripple effect with several people, and I'm grateful for that; we get to decide what our lives are going to be and who's in them.  What a concept!

[Louise7777]

BB12, thank you for this thread! I have relatives that are PDs, and as consequence, I got friends who at least have PD traits. We are givers, so its just normal for us to get friends that are takers.

When I realized this, I cut off a few from my life. Some didnt want to go, they were used to my shoulder, they could come and cry and tell me their problems all the time... . So they were not pleased when I said it was enough. Actually, they didnt try to see it from my viewpoint and help me in my needs... . They raged and played victim as if they were abandoned... . It was not a true friendship, of course. I was glad, though, it was a burden for me and I didnt even notice it at first. I think this particular friend was HPD with huge N traits.

Other friend, which I believe has H traits, had no problem with me not contacting her. She only contacted me when needed something and was never there for me. Never showed up at my birthdays or events... . while I was at hers... . So at some point I just stopped contacting her... . And she kept phoning me when she wanted something with a "oh, Im such a bad friend, I havent talked to you for long... . "... . to which I always responded "you are a good friend" and reassured her and met her, etc... . But last time I didnt, I simply answered "oh, dont worry, I didnt contact you either, Im busy too". And there was silence, she didnt see that coming. I told her I was having health issues in my family and she never phoned again to see how it was... . She only contacts when she has a need... . And I stopped picking up the phone.

Fromheeltoheal, your "friends" response was terrible. Not only invalidating but cold as ice. Im glad shes gone.

[fromheeltoheal]

Fromheeltoheal, your "friends" response was terrible. Not only invalidating but cold as ice. I'm glad shes gone.  Yeah, me too Louise, thanks for the validation.  The good news is for much of my life I tolerated crap like that and assumed she was right; life doesn't need to be that hard.

[bb12]

Thanks Louise /h2h

yeah - gob smacking stuff to realise how trapped in giving we have been our whole lives.

breaking that cycle and having that 'what a concept!' moment has many layers. Only natural that it takes a while to stop that train and to insist on reciprocity. My 'best mate' that I talked about earlier, also never called or gave me anything on birthdays despite a box of books, music and other gifts arriving in Hong Kong every year without fail.

But when I start down this path: comparing my acts of friendship with others, it makes me sad. Literally an entire lifetime of unrewarded generosity. As a likely codependent, I am sure I am not without blame and I am looking at issues like control and intention that might lie behind these apparent acts of kindness. But for the most part I still feel short changed and happily rid of these 20 year friendships. They now look like a motely crew of self-centred, pleasure-seeking users. So where's the loss in that?

Bb12

[Rubies]

I did a clean sweep of so-called friends and family when the BPD was put out of my life.   I knew BPDxh kept me surrounded with users, abusers and takers and they were easy to eliminate.   

Facing my relationships that predated the BPD marriage was another story.   As much as they'd advocated CHANGE for me, they sure didn't like the positive changes in my life.  They especially didn't like my newly found ability to say NO, set boundaries and not put up with poor treatment.  Even from my own family.

I kept two relationships,  an older gentle who died last summer, and my future son in law.

I am slowly building healthy friendships with healthy people and finding my place in the community

I sure as heck don't put up with bad behavior from anyone anymore.

[Louise7777]

Im glad we are all learning and looking for better relationships/ friendships.

I forgot to say something. I read somewhere that we need to ASK for help, instead of minimizing our needs and helping others. Dont expect others to read your mind and come to you, you have to let them know you need help. And then you´ll see whos there for you.

That for me was an eye-opening moment. I realized I always avoided talking about my problems while I heard other´s nonstop. So this article said that we attract the takers cause we never need anything... . We dont want to bother others with our things, but we dont mind bothering ourselves by helping others... .

I dont put up with bad behaviour either. And its such a relief! I try not to engage (sometimes I fail) and the moment you avoid all that created drama you feel so relieved!

"Literally an entire lifetime of unrewarded generosity". BB, Im sure you´ll get your share of understanding/ validation/ support from another source. Usually unexpected. It happened to me. Some family members turned the back on us when we needed the most... . No need to mention we had done lots for them. And then, out of the blue, a recent friend, living abroad just offered help. Financial help. I never asked and he kindly offered. I accepted. And later I paied him back, of course. This is very tricky, money can ruin friendships, but actually I think this improved ours. He had sent lots of money to his brother and the brother never paied him back... .

So dont feel bad for the past, Im sure youll find better people and will have your "reward" in the least expected way.

[seeking balance]

I have posted often on this subject including your other thread BB.

As we change, our friendships are going to change too.  Giving people time to accept the "new" us is a kindness we can show them and ourselves.  Some friends can and some cannot - we grieve the ones that cannot... . anger is a part of that grief.

I have a good friend, probably my best friend during my D and the last few years... . our relationship is changing as we are each changing.  I have had anger and sadness as the reality of different life interests are pulling us farther apart... . life does that though.  We all grow and giving someone the space to grow is important.  It hurts - but it is not personal, it is simply life. 

The 4 Agreements really help me in friendships these days.  I remind myself of them when I start to get angry about a friend.

The Four Agreements are:

1. Be Impeccable with your Word: Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Avoid using the Word to speak against yourself or to gossip about others. Use the power of your Word in the direction of truth and love.

2. Don’t Take Anything Personally

Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, their own dream. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others, you won’t be the victim of needless suffering.

3. Don’t Make Assumptions

Find the courage to ask questions and to express what you really want. Communicate with others as clearly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness and drama. With just this one agreement, you can completely transform your life.

4. Always Do Your Best

Your best is going to change from moment to moment; it will be different when you are healthy as opposed to sick. Under any circumstance, simply do your best, and you will avoid self-judgment, self-abuse, and regret.

[Changingman]

Some people are angry, deny that I am changing,

some are shocked that I can now see what they are,

some on a path I no longer find interesting,

some can't stand the sound of my new guitar

I'm gonna change and I don't mean PLEASE!

x

[fromheeltoheal]

I'm gonna change and I don't mean PLEASE!  Hallelujah!

[Changingman]

Hallelujah!

[findingmyselfagain]

bb12,

It's been interesting how my relationships have changed since the pwBPD. I lost one friend who was overly dramatic toward me and some friends. She had some unrealistic expectations for me and a few friends helping her move with some very last-minute, disorganized notice. She expected us to drop some plans we had in the works for over a month on short notice. She was totally unwilling to offer us any concessions or to adapt to our schedule and became extremely upset when we tried to make suggestions so we could help. She's a piano teacher, so I guess she loses money when she cancels appointments, but that's not our issue. Neither is her divorce or her needing to move her stuff. After she went off on us for the second time, my friend and I decided to give up on her friendship. Looking back it did seem like she was usually fishing for compliments and complained about having very few friends and seemed sad. We live in an enormous city, so if you *really* wanted to make connections you could. I never would have suspected that much except for that outburst from her led me to see other smaller red flags.

I'd say my relationships have improved on the whole. I have a bipolar friend who I used to try to invite out quite a bit because he would occasionally just disappear. Since then I've just let him disappear and come as he pleases. I don't expect him to be reliable 100% of the time, but when he makes the effort I'm willing to spend time with him, and we communicate by email/text more than by hanging out sometimes. It seems like we have a better, more respectful relationship. Mostly what I've learned is that I can't change someone, and it's ok for me to stand up for myself and say No, or to take better care of my diabetes (i.e. getting rest when needed, etc.). I respect others, too.

I'm not sure I could say I'm a 100% comfortable with my current SO, or if I'm just not ready for a r/s that takes more work. I've learned to move slower and I over-think a little bit. The important thing is to keep making progress. The journey isn't easy but well worth it.

[Clearmind]

I have only just realized that a friend of 25 years is not the kind of friend I want.

Two years ago my T asked me to write about what friendships entail. Much like my romantic choices in partners my choice of friendships could also suck.

With some friends it was like flogging a dead horse. I no longer enjoyed what it had to offer. Leaving the friendships triggered my "I must be kind to everyone and must be available to everyone when they need me" button. Once I recognized the trigger I could work myself through it. Letting friendships go can be a little like divorce - it's natural to grieve the loss however don't misplace that grief as guilt or obligation - they are distinctly different.

Bb expand your network and seek friends that make you feel good.

[Sunny Side]

What a timely thread, bb .  I've noticed post BPD r/s that my "requirements" for adult friendships, including family, are changing.  I've always been aware of boundaries but now feel more comfortable and empowered to enact them.  Respect, punctuality, accountability, listening, these aren't optional, right?  And as you say the reactions are enlightening.

For example my older brother who's always had a poor r/s with timely communication, something I've mentioned to him more than once over the years, called me out of the blue a couple weeks ago to tell me that his ex-wife (divorced) was stuck at the airport in my town (some flight snafu or some such) and that he volunteered my house for her to spend the night if she needed.  Now I am friends with his wife and she is still a part of his extended family (they share 3 kids) but she is also quite a rage-aholic and not the easiest to get along with.  Not my problem, right? And I thought post-divorce not his either!

So I told my brother (admittedly my tone probably wasn't the best) that there are plenty of affordable hotels available right at the airport should she end up having to spend the night.  She is a working woman and was on a business trip and should be able to handle her own contingencies for traveling.  At any rate I didn't think it was appropriate for him to volunteer my house without asking me first.  In the past I may have glossed over this and said "No problem, whatever she (you) needs" but I felt this was a simple boundary violation that I was more than willing to enforce.  However my brother didn't like my reply and I haven't heard from him since! (She ended up getting a flight, btw).

The other example was a phone call I received from a longtime friend and former employer.  He is uADHD and has a problem focusing during telephone conversations, or really any conversation  .  So he calls me (we haven't spoken in months) and proceeds to bombard me with a one-way tirade about something (I literally barely spoke a word) before abruptly having to jump back off the phone.  I've known him for nearly 20 years but this time it just felt intolerable.  Not exactly sure what to do there except possibly nothing!  I don't care!  Post BPD r/s I realize I'm going to have very little tolerance for BS especially after putting up with it for so long.  And you know what?  I'm okay with it!   

We don't have to offer or accept behavior from anyone in our lives that isn't reciprocated in kind.  Ever.  Great post, bb12.

[Tolou]

B.B. NICE THREAD... .

As I think about it, I have let go of some friends over the years, even prior to my relationship with BPDgf.  I think part of becoming older and more matture you able to know, when enough is enough and some people are just not what you need them to be.

I too can say I am a giving person, and it has hurt me in ways that I was taken advantage of by people and so-called "friends".

After the I walked away from the BPD relationship, which was difficult, I learned more about myself and boundaries and what I will and will not put up with.  Sometimes, I do also think that in the past I have used my kindness to gain acceptance and approval of others, unknowingly... . But when you see certain people for who they are, you longer want to extend yourselves to them in that manner.  Some of the people have given to and given back, in reciprocal relationship, which is healthy.  Then there are those like some of you mention who just seem to locate you when they are need, I got rid of them, and sometimes learning to say NO, is part of creating those boundaries... . Our friends and people we know, and ex BPDs or current BPDs were managing in their lives before we met, and they will without... . Leeches, or users, will always find another source, don't fall the guilt trips... . have confidence in your judgment

[lemon flower]

I forgot to say something. I read somewhere that we need to ASK for help, instead of minimizing our needs and helping others. Dont expect others to read your mind and come to you, you have to let them know you need help. And then you´ll see whos there for you.

That for me was an eye-opening moment. I realized I always avoided talking about my problems while I heard other´s nonstop. So this article said that we attract the takers cause we never need anything... . We dont want to bother others with our things, but we dont mind bothering ourselves by helping others... .

same here :-(

I find it terribly difficult to ask other people for help, I am so used to managing on my own, always and in all situations... . even when I'm ill, I will not call someone, when I need a heavy thing to be transported, it will stand there for weeks because I do not want to call for someone to help me unless they offer it themselves, and when someone helps I feel the urge to do something in return... .

on the emotional part it's the same; people always come to me with their problems and stories, even when I barely know them   , but I hardly know people with whom I can ventilate my own trouble, apart from my sister and one friend who lives too far away for a regular visit.

when I was younger I absorbed everything and had trouble to not let them come too close, now I can manage to maintain more distance and learned to listen without bothering to much about it, and I'm more selective in my contacts, but as a result I tend to isolate myself a lot, I'm over-protectioning my personal space at times, which is not very healthy neither  

in my r/s with my BPD this protective impulse has saved me from a lot of trouble and now it's very useful to set boundaries, but still I need more "sane" people around me for a contra-balanse!

it feels like a vicious circle: my hyper-sensitivity and empatic nature makes me a target to abusive and needy people, but when I  protect myself too strongly, I tend to loose the "good" people, since I unconsciously shut them out , as a result only BPD's can force their way through my defenses since they are so good in neglecting boundaries and are the only ones who keep on climbing over the walls of my fortress

[bb12]

Thanks everyone - some really good stuff on here. It turned into a great thread - much appreciated.

Looks like this conundrum is part and parcel of the journey and recovery. I suspect that somewhere between setting boundaries, self-awareness and hyper-vigilance, we demand more for ourselves. I never would have thought that some of my longest standing relationships would form part of the collateral damage, but I feel strong enough to handle even that. And I am prepared to do what I must to keep growing and find my truth

Really appreciate the counsel on here.

cheers again

BB12