Moving over from Staying Board need some advice

[formflier]

Hopefully I'm not messing up a rule by posting a link to my "issue" that is on the staying board.

With ever fiber of my being... . I want to "save" the marriage and family.  However... . I also need to look at the reality of what she is doing.

Through in the extra spice that my uBPDw has a sister that most likely suffers from this as well... . and a mom... . and a grandma.   Back to the sister... . she is advising my uBPDw... . and pretty much did all the dirty tricks when she divorced.  In one instance my brother in laws recording kept him from going to jail.  she apparently injured herself and was trying to pin it on him.  Unfortunately for him... . he didn't press the issue... just felt glad that he didn't go to jail.

So... . please read the post... . and maybe some of my old stuff and help me figure out what I need to be reading and preparing for.




https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=224968.0

[david]

Make all communication through email. Simplest way to document. Make sure you have a recorder on you at all times when she is near. You can put it all on your computer with times and dates. Protects you from false allegations. I have a video and an audio recorder.

Make sure you are okay so you can stay focused on priorities. I found a therapist, after several tries, that felt right for me. She helped a lot to get me emotionally detached.

How old are the kids ?

Do not leave the house or the kids. Leaving the house is abandonment and you will not be allowed to get it back. Leaving the kids tells the courts that you think it is fine for them to be with her. Make sure you talk to your lawyer about that.

Read Divorce Poison by Bill Eddy. Stop Walking on Eggshells and The Borderline Mother are also good reads to help you understand the illogic and chaos.

My ex used counseling to try to make me look like the bad guy. It backfired on her. She tried again and that didn't work either.

A good T is helpful but you need to find a good one. That is the hard part. If you find a good one, more than likely, mom will not like him/her

[Livestrong97]

How do you video or record someone without them knowing?  This seems really hard to me.  Advice?

[formflier]

Kids  18 down to 1 year old.  Heartbreaking!  Almost 20 years married.  4-5 years BPD symptoms have been present.  I can think back and see hints before then.

When you say do not leave the house... . I want to confirm you are not talking about going to work.  uBPDw is stay at home mom. 

NC is state and laws this will be under.

She has stormed out on a counselor or two and declared them quacks after they stood up to her.  I am still seeing the last counselor but it has not been regular.  So... was marriage counselor... . and now I am still going because the counselor is familiar.  This is the counselor that turned me on to BPD. 

Communication through email is problematic.  I will try.  A recent relationship improvement has been a reduction of text bombs and almost no emailing.  However... . that was when I was firmly in staying stage. 

If you can pass info about video recorder... is it obvious... a cell phone? 

I think I am well on the way to emotional detachment/realization that I may have a fight on my hands.

Make all communication through email. Simplest way to document. Make sure you have a recorder on you at all times when she is near. You can put it all on your computer with times and dates. Protects you from false allegations. I have a video and an audio recorder.

Make sure you are okay so you can stay focused on priorities. I found a therapist, after several tries, that felt right for me. She helped a lot to get me emotionally detached.

How old are the kids ?

Do not leave the house or the kids. Leaving the house is abandonment and you will not be allowed to get it back. Leaving the kids tells the courts that you think it is fine for them to be with her. Make sure you talk to your lawyer about that.

Read Divorce Poison by Bill Eddy. Stop Walking on Eggshells and The Borderline Mother are also good reads to help you understand the illogic and chaos.

My ex used counseling to try to make me look like the bad guy. It backfired on her. She tried again and that didn't work either.

A good T is helpful but you need to find a good one. That is the hard part. If you find a good one, more than likely, mom will not like him/her

[ForeverDad]

How do you video or record someone without them knowing?  This seems really hard to me.  Advice?

I've had small handheld voice recorders.  The newer models can run for days, not just hours.  But if I put them in a pocket the picked up all sorts of swishing sounds.  How about a PenCam?  Yes, they're sold in many places, internet too.  And the pen works as well.

[david]

I have a small audio recorde that fits in my pocket. Say I am going to a doc appointment. I turn it on in my car with the radio on. I use a station that says the time and date frequently. I then put it in my pocket and walk to the building. Yes it makes swishing noises. Technically I am not allowed to record in my state (Pa.). I talked to my atty and explained it this way. I am simply recording myself. If ex accuses me of verbal abuse or physical abuse I am recording my actions and words. It just so happens that she is present and also will be in the recording. I would ask the court, through my atty, to disregard anything but me in the recording. Since I didn't say anything or do anything that sounds like me hitting, screaming, throwing, etc I didn't do what she claimed. My atty thought it was a good idea. After the appointment I walk back to my car and drive away. I turn it off several blocks away from where I was.

Our court order spells out that when I pick the kids up at her place she is to remain inside until I leave. I am to do the same when she picks the kids up. The first time after that order she approached my car. I turned the video recorder on and pointed it directly at her. She noticed and turned around and went back into her place. It took three times before she got it. She still comes out but doesn't approach my car. At night, since the camera will not pick anything up in the dark I point it at me and put it on my dash. Yea, I am recording myself and yes it does sound crazy but I have no intention of going to jail again because of false allegations.

[formflier]

Nice work... . have you ever thought of trying to call her... . enforce the order against her for staying in the house?  Not exactly sure what the right term is.

How do you figure out when to document... . and when to take action.

Allen

I have a small audio recorde that fits in my pocket. Say I am going to a doc appointment. I turn it on in my car with the radio on. I use a station that says the time and date frequently. I then put it in my pocket and walk to the building. Yes it makes swishing noises. Technically I am not allowed to record in my state (Pa.). I talked to my atty and explained it this way. I am simply recording myself. If ex accuses me of verbal abuse or physical abuse I am recording my actions and words. It just so happens that she is present and also will be in the recording. I would ask the court, through my atty, to disregard anything but me in the recording. Since I didn't say anything or do anything that sounds like me hitting, screaming, throwing, etc I didn't do what she claimed. My atty thought it was a good idea. After the appointment I walk back to my car and drive away. I turn it off several blocks away from where I was.

Our court order spells out that when I pick the kids up at her place she is to remain inside until I leave. I am to do the same when she picks the kids up. The first time after that order she approached my car. I turned the video recorder on and pointed it directly at her. She noticed and turned around and went back into her place. It took three times before she got it. She still comes out but doesn't approach my car. At night, since the camera will not pick anything up in the dark I point it at me and put it on my dash. Yea, I am recording myself and yes it does sound crazy but I have no intention of going to jail again because of false allegations.

[livednlearned]

I'm in NC.

Moving $30K to a separate account should be setting off fireworks in your brain. Something is about to go down.

My attorney recommended that I take half when I left, which I did. The way it works is that you are taking an advance on the settlement that you'll eventually work out. No lawyer or judge will bat an eye over this -- shark lawyers will recommend taking all of it. The more reasonable ones will recommend taking half.

Money gets thrown around like you wouldn't believe. 10K here, 10K there. Whoever has access to the money is in the better position.

It's good that you have talked to an attorney -- it's really important that you read Splitting by Bill Eddy. My attorney divorced someone with a PD, and knew a lot about the disorder I was dealing with. She is an excellent family law attorney. Still -- you need to be leading this. I taught her some things she didn't know, and caught a lot of mistakes, and we disagreed on some things. She insisted on a few things, and I did the same, and I learned a ton from her. We were entirely 100% partners and that's what you need to be too.

Your wife taking the kids to counseling without making sure you two could go together is another sign that something is up. Her emails to you saying one thing and then doing another sound a lot like someone getting ready to set you up. My ex has done similar things every step of the way. He writes emails saying what he wants to say, so he can present it the way he wants it to, and then uses these emails in court as "proof" of his point of view. In my case, the difference is that he also sends very disordered emails, and those show up in court too.

If your wife is getting advice from someone who has done this before, and she wants to keep the house, there's a good chance she will make false allegations against you. In NC, you can record someone without their consent (check this, but I believe it's accurate). However, not all judges will allow recordings into court as evidence, and some evidence, if it is allowed, has to be verified by a forensic IT person. Regardless of the laws, or what is admissible, it's a really really smart idea to start recording everything. Careful what you write in emails. Save everything. Document her behavior. Record as much as you can and figure out how to save the recordings somewhere she won't stumble across them. Because if she makes false allegations, there are lots of professionals who will listen to those recordings and make judgements -- just because court has rules about what can and can't be judged in court doesn't mean other people aren't interested in hearing what went down. Like CPS or custody evaluators or guardian ad litems.

Do you think your kids are being coached? If I were you, I would contact the therapist your wife is taking the kids to. Let that person know you would like to go, but your wife has scheduled it on a day you can't make it. Leave a paper trail so that if you need to prove you wanted to be involved but couldn't be, you have that documentation.

I'm sorry it's come to this for you. It's important that you take seriously how she's behaving. It looks a lot like someone getting ready to spring a trap.

[david]

I could site her for contempt but I pick my battles. Fighting over every detail makes you look just as crazy. Besides, she doesn't approach me anymore. She just walks out and stands in the driveway. Also, I was told years ago , negative engagement is still engagement. That took a while to sink in for me. It has many aspects to it. The less I engage the better for everyone involved.

I take action when I believe it directly affects the kids. I am currently going through a custody eval. Last year I documented everything that both boys did in school. They did over 90% of their homework with me even though she has majority of time during the school year. Our youngest was in third grade. Ex insisted he had a learning disability since kindergarten. I disagreed. I am a school teacher. I finally had enough info to convince the school that I knew what I was talking about. They tested him and he tested in the top 1% in math, science, and logic. I am a math teacher. The few homeworks he did at his mom's were so grossly incorrect that his teacher had nothing to say when she seen them. My atty laughed out loud when he seen them. Our son insists mom gives him the answers and he argues with her that the answers she gives him are wrong. I believe him. I filed last August and ex has dragged it out. We should be finished before the end of this school year. I worried she would start doing homeworks with the boys since that was what my petition addressed. She did not. We had one meeting together already with the evaluator. Ex told several big lies that would affect the eval if true. I went home and found solid proof she is lying. We have another scheduled meeting and I plan on addressing every lie with facts.

I have actually not followed the court order several times. The latest was when our youngest was ill. I was supposed to bring the boys to her place that night. I sent an email letting her know S10 was sick and he was already in bed. She replied stating the court order and that I was in contempt. I simply replied saying S10 was sick and was already in bed. I repeated myself exactly. I follow what I think is in the childrens best interest. In that situation I do not believe any judge would find me in contempt. I took S10 to the pediatrician the next morning. I emailed ex letting her know when the appointment was. She never showed. He was ill and the doc wrote a prescription for an antibiotic. My ex is a nurse too.   

Email only communication works best for me. It's all documented that way.  When I first started email only communication ex resisted. I stuck to my boundary. I got rid of texting on my phone. If ex called I let it go to voicemail. I would listen to the voicemail and reply in email. I also included what she said in the voicemail. I saved the voicemail too. A year later she started calling from various numbers I didn't recognize. I stopped answering my phone altogether if I didn't recognize the number or it wasn't in my phonebook. Ex still called and started leaving voicemails from those numbers. I had 5 or 6 numbers which she called from and left voicemails. I figure she doesn't like emails because there is no wiggle room to change your story. It does take some time to get used to. It's second nature to me now.

Things get easier over time. My ex left in 2007. We finally got divorced in 2010. I used to get about 40 emails a month telling me what was wrong with me, etc. I now get less than 10 a month. I still get accused of physical, verbal, emotional, and recently added spiritual abuse. I save them all and don't reply to any. The only exception is if something in the email pertains to the boys. I will reply to that and only that.

[formflier]

Yes... . she has sister with BPD traits that divorced years ago.  Pretty "typical" BPD behavior before during and after the divorce.  They did a 50/50 parenting split... . and then the BPD sister seemed to take on a full time job of alienation, acting up, to "keep winning".

Whatever I can do to avoid that... or minimize that... . I will.

Thanks for book review and rest of advice. 

I... . unfortunately agree that the trend looks really bad.  I am at the point with this PD thing... that she will either get into some kind of verifiable treatment and stick with it (she claims I am the whacky one)... . or it will escalate into a divorce.  No more appeasement from me or giving in to ridiculous behavior.

I'm in NC.

Moving $30K to a separate account should be setting off fireworks in your brain. Something is about to go down.

My attorney recommended that I take half when I left, which I did. The way it works is that you are taking an advance on the settlement that you'll eventually work out. No lawyer or judge will bat an eye over this -- shark lawyers will recommend taking all of it. The more reasonable ones will recommend taking half.

Money gets thrown around like you wouldn't believe. 10K here, 10K there. Whoever has access to the money is in the better position.

It's good that you have talked to an attorney -- it's really important that you read Splitting by Bill Eddy. My attorney divorced someone with a PD, and knew a lot about the disorder I was dealing with. She is an excellent family law attorney. Still -- you need to be leading this. I taught her some things she didn't know, and caught a lot of mistakes, and we disagreed on some things. She insisted on a few things, and I did the same, and I learned a ton from her. We were entirely 100% partners and that's what you need to be too.

Your wife taking the kids to counseling without making sure you two could go together is another sign that something is up. Her emails to you saying one thing and then doing another sound a lot like someone getting ready to set you up. My ex has done similar things every step of the way. He writes emails saying what he wants to say, so he can present it the way he wants it to, and then uses these emails in court as "proof" of his point of view. In my case, the difference is that he also sends very disordered emails, and those show up in court too.

If your wife is getting advice from someone who has done this before, and she wants to keep the house, there's a good chance she will make false allegations against you. In NC, you can record someone without their consent (check this, but I believe it's accurate). However, not all judges will allow recordings into court as evidence, and some evidence, if it is allowed, has to be verified by a forensic IT person. Regardless of the laws, or what is admissible, it's a really really smart idea to start recording everything. Careful what you write in emails. Save everything. Document her behavior. Record as much as you can and figure out how to save the recordings somewhere she won't stumble across them. Because if she makes false allegations, there are lots of professionals who will listen to those recordings and make judgements -- just because court has rules about what can and can't be judged in court doesn't mean other people aren't interested in hearing what went down. Like CPS or custody evaluators or guardian ad litems.

Do you think your kids are being coached? If I were you, I would contact the therapist your wife is taking the kids to. Let that person know you would like to go, but your wife has scheduled it on a day you can't make it. Leave a paper trail so that if you need to prove you wanted to be involved but couldn't be, you have that documentation.

I'm sorry it's come to this for you. It's important that you take seriously how she's behaving. It looks a lot like someone getting ready to spring a trap.

[livednlearned]

Alienation tends to go hand in hand with these divorces, unfortunately. Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison is excellent. That, and Splitting by Eddy, is pretty much the gold standard.

My ex started alienation tactics during our marriage, but with little effect because S12 was very bonded to me. Still -- alienation can be very damaging and it's really important to have some techniques in hand to help deal with the issues. The common wisdom you'll hear from most therapists is to not put the kids in the middle. But when one (disordered) parent is putting the kids in the middle, you can't be passive. Warshak describes the tactics, the effects of those tactics on the kids, and then describes techniques you can use to help the kids figure out what's going on. That, plus validation techniques, can be a powerful combination. Someone needs to help them figure out how to decide what's real and what's not real, and validation can be an important part of that.

[formflier]

Ordering them... . from a separate amazon account!    as I type

Please keep the recommendations coming!

Alienation tends to go hand in hand with these divorces, unfortunately. Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison is excellent. That, and Splitting by Eddy, is pretty much the gold standard.

My ex started alienation tactics during our marriage, but with little effect because S12 was very bonded to me. Still -- alienation can be very damaging and it's really important to have some techniques in hand to help deal with the issues. The common wisdom you'll hear from most therapists is to not put the kids in the middle. But when one (disordered) parent is putting the kids in the middle, you can't be passive. Warshak describes the tactics, the effects of those tactics on the kids, and then describes techniques you can use to help the kids figure out what's going on. That, plus validation techniques, can be a powerful combination. Someone needs to help them figure out how to decide what's real and what's not real, and validation can be an important part of that.

[david]

My ex went through several counselors for the boys. Just like lnl said she was trying to use the counselors to make me the bad guy. I made sure I was included and I set the record straight by telling the truth. That made the counselors want no part of anything. A good T wouldn't do that but that is not what my ex wanted. She wanted someone on her side and against me. The last counselor she tried to use wouldn't even talk to me. I had a parent coordinator at the time. I pointed out that I wasn't being included. The pc ruled that I had a week to try to get included. I sent an email to the director with specific questions. A friend that is a counselor helped me with the questions. The director would not reply to me. I gave the emails to the pc and it was ruled that if I was not included ex could not take the boys there.

I can remember back in 2008. Ex dropped the boys off and as soon as they walked into the house they said in unison, "We hate you and want to live with mom. We never want to see you again." I realized it was their mom doing that. I simply said I loved them and went about our normal routine. I listened to them, validated them, read Divorce Poison, found a good T for me, and moved forward. Ex stayed, and to a very large degree remains, stuck in the same mindset as 2007. I have a great relationship with both boys. I also have SS's, ex's kids from her first marriage, and I have a great relationship with two of them too. One is total NC with his mom and the other is LC.

[formflier]

Thanks for the info... .

Please help me out with NC and LC in the last sentence... . still learning the shorthand of some of these boards.

My ex went through several counselors for the boys. Just like lnl said she was trying to use the counselors to make me the bad guy. I made sure I was included and I set the record straight by telling the truth. That made the counselors want no part of anything. A good T wouldn't do that but that is not what my ex wanted. She wanted someone on her side and against me. The last counselor she tried to use wouldn't even talk to me. I had a parent coordinator at the time. I pointed out that I wasn't being included. The pc ruled that I had a week to try to get included. I sent an email to the director with specific questions. A friend that is a counselor helped me with the questions. The director would not reply to me. I gave the emails to the pc and it was ruled that if I was not included ex could not take the boys there.

I can remember back in 2008. Ex dropped the boys off and as soon as they walked into the house they said in unison, "We hate you and want to live with mom. We never want to see you again." I realized it was their mom doing that. I simply said I loved them and went about our normal routine. I listened to them, validated them, read Divorce Poison, found a good T for me, and moved forward. Ex stayed, and to a very large degree remains, stuck in the same mindset as 2007. I have a great relationship with both boys. I also have SS's, ex's kids from her first marriage, and I have a great relationship with two of them too. One is total NC with his mom and the other is LC.

[david]

NC- no contact        LC- low or limited contact

Another good read is The Art of War. It helps change your way of approaching a problem. A good example was Desert Storm 1. The US took several jeeps with giant speakers and amps and drove behind fortifications along the Kuwait and Iraq border. They blasted sounds of lots and lots of tanks coming. Many of the Iraqi's simply dropped everything and took off. Not a shot fired. Convincing the other side that doom is inevitable wins the battle without a fight. Using the enemies perceived strengths against them works great.

We went through equitable distribution a while back. Ex filed papers stating we had approx 1.2 million in assets. It was nowhere near that amount. She specifically spelled things out and had about 15 pages of things listed. I had photos of our house before and after she emptied it. I also had photos of her new place with the majority of things from our house in it. I had a lot of other things I had discovered over the drawn out process of our divorce. The time actually did help me in this area. I turned around and agreed with her valuation. I then asked that we split things 50/50 and all I wanted was cash ($600,000) and she could keep all the things. I presented most of the info at the conference. Her atty's jaw hit the floor and we quickly settled at a 70/30 split in my favor. My atty said we could have gone to court and gotten an 80/20 split or better but I was more interested in getting the divorce finalized. It was worth the extra money. In the beginning I would have argued every point because I wanted the truth be known. As I detached I began to look at our divorce as a business negotiation and nothing more. The emotion was gone and I could think more clearly because of that. Ex is still emotional and lashes out. Her strength in the beginning was her emotional arguments. They were very convincing. I even questioned my own recollection of events years ago.  Doesn't phase me anymore. 

[Love Is Not Enough]

www.amazon.com/Sony-Digital-Flash-Recorder-ICD-PX312/dp/B004M8SSZK/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1399565317&sr=8-6&keywords=audio+recorder

This is what I have used. Not sure why the price has gone up so much. Probably has been discontinued. Works well in your pocket and can be voice activated. Luckily I had it on me when my gf attacked me and then threatened to call the police on me. Having never been in that situation before I protected myself and she had bruises on her arm when I tried to push her blows back. If it ever happens again I will just let her hit me. Luckily she did not call the cops, but if she had this would have saved my life. I stayed calm and just kept telling her to get off of me. I do not think video is that important with as much as they usually say. Start recording the rages so that you have evidence of them.

[cobaltblue]

I am going through the same thing - uBPD wife, kids, she wants to take them to therapy to have a professional validate what she has been coaching them on so it can be used in court to gain sole custody. I filed divorce five months ago and am in the middle of it. Feel free to PM me if you want. It took me three years to move from the denial phase to the acceptance and action phase. Things haven't gotten physical yet but am recording everything in anticipation of false alegations or fabricated DV charges.

HTH,

[pallavirajsinghani]

1)  Also, there is service available where all the texts can be saved, both incoming and outgoing.

2)  Respond only to practical issues.  Do not JADE (Justify, Accuse, Defend or Explain).  JADING adds fuel to fire.

3)  Get a service that will record all phone conversations.  Before saying anything, announce that it is a recorded line.  There is a regular beep that goes on a recorded line.  It is legal to record all phone calls as long as the other party is aware.  Usually, there is a standard wording available,  "You are now on a recorded line.  If you do not want to have this conversation recorded, you may fax me at (insert number) or email me at (insert address) or write at the (insert address).  Then make sure that you only listen and address practical issues only, real briefly.  Chances are she will hang up before your announcement/warning is complete.  You can also program the answering machine to automatically give this warning, however, the warning itself must be recorded.  This entire package is easily available... . it gets recorded on your computer with date/time stamped also.  If you can afford it, check out a computer software person.

4)  Maintain a journal.  The journal should ONLY describe her behavior and yours but not mention any mental illness... . for example, you can say,  "XYZ was extremely upset because her dinner was cold.  I cooked the dinner and gave her a plate.  She waited for 15 minutes to come to the table.  She got angry because her dinner had got cold.  In her anger she threw down the plate and said that the cold dinner is a proof that I do not love her.  Then she started to kick the door.  She also picked up the microwave and picked it up and threw it down forcefully on the floor.  Then she proceeded to open the kitchen cabinets and threw down the dishes.  I tried to embrace her to calm her down but she got angrier and spit on me.  So I left the dining room and went for a walk.  Then she started to text me... . and now you have the texts (most probably all "love bombs" saved... .

No mention of mental illness... . no judgement, just observation and description.

Slowly it will also train you to always watch your own actions as if from a distance and you will be in better control of your own reactions because you will be constantly seeing them written in a journal.

5)  I had an attorney tell me once that no law enforcement agency really wants to criminalize recordings when they are for a self-protection purpose, legal or not.  They pursue cases where there is an intent to blackmail, or a stalking type pathological behavior, or when pedophilia is involved etc. etc. 

Hope this helps.

[whirlpoollife]

Ordering them... . from a separate amazon account!    as I type

[/quote]
To a separate PO Box or someone else's address

[ForeverDad]

Ordering them... . from a separate amazon account!    as I type

To a separate PO Box or someone else's address

Or, ask a family member or very trusted friend (not a mutual friend of the disordered person) to make the order.