Above and beyond validation: "backing him up"

[SweetCharlotte]

My uBPDh has a thing he calls backing him up. When there is a conflict with a third party, which is usually with my D10 (who is his daughter as well since I had her a few years before we got together using an anonymous donor) or my S16 (his stepson, as he is from my first marriage), he insists that I take his side. This is called "backing him up."

I can understand how important it is to validate his feelings, but sometimes he is not in the right when it comes to these interpersonal conflicts. For example, D10 admittedly uses electronic devices and social media too much. In an effort to take away a device she was hiding, he accidentally (carelessly, as he was being brusque) grazed her face with a water bottle he was holding. She wound up with a small cut or bruise under her eye. I naturally side with her in such an encounter and ask him to be more careful. This results in him heading for the door and threatening to leave for the whole day, when he was supposed to spend the day home with her while I went to work.

Back when our r/s was more tumultuous, I would have stood my ground and he would have gone out the door. I would have spent the day wondering when and if he was coming back (he has on occasion left town over this; it's a commuter/LD marriage so he does have someplace else to go, unfortunately). This time as he stood on the threshold waiting for me to "back him up," I did so. If I validate, it is not enough; I have to express that I am on his side and the other party is wrong. It seems so childish. I guess the thing to do in this case is wait until later and then express my concern that he not cause her any physical harm?

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[MissyM]

My concern with that approach is what damage are you doing to your D10?  What do you say to her to validate her experience?

[SweetCharlotte]

When something like this happens, she runs to my side and tells on him, looking for my support. This time I said, "Be more obedient or he will brutalize you and I can't always stop him." She has never been very obedient and sometimes that gets to him.

He heard me, as usual, so he kept repeating the word "brutalize" at every opportunity. And then we had the abandonment drama when I pulled him back in the house by promising to always back him up. The first time something like this happened, we were at a theme park and I saw him give her a Vulcan neck-pinch because she disobeyed me. I blurted out, ":)on't touch her!" and he strode off and spent the rest of the day in a beer garden for Dads at the theme park gate. He still denies neck-pinching her 

In general, she loves him dearly and is very comfortable with him. Most of the time, it's like a dream come true, because I had her as a single mom and never thought I would be raising her with a loving Dad like she has now. It's just that once in a while his BPD (with maybe a dash of NPD) makes him demand obedience and she is strong-willed.

[zaqsert]

This can be a tough one.  I spent some time trying to "back up" my uBPDw in a variety of situations, or at least tried not to contradict her.

But then I realized that one of the reasons this felt so bad was that I was doing a big disservice to our D3 (then D2).  My wife tends to demand obedience too, and she tends to want others to see the world as she sees it -- and that includes her view of what she believes other people's feelings are.  As I learned to recognize that my wife's actions were verbally abusive, I started to recognize the same about her actions towards our daughter.  And as I learned to stop putting up with them myself, I started to protect our daughter from them more and more.  At age 3, otherwise there would be no way that she would know how to defend herself.  And the actions can be very damaging to a child.

This hasn't helped my wife and me get any closer in our relationship, but "backing her up" did not help either, as there was always something else that would make her get angry at me.  So at least I find some comfort in knowing that I am helping to protect our daughter from verbal abuse.  I used to really dislike when my wife would then go spend a day or two in our room watching TV.  Now I feel that it is more time that our daughter does not have to put up with my wife's anger and other antics, and I have grown to accept it.  I still get to enjoy spending time with our wonderful daughter.

While I am not as familiar with the details of your situation, this has been my experience.

To the extent that I can, I try to validate both of their experiences.  I tend to do better with validating our daughter's.  It feels like often by the time I see that there is something I should validate, my wife has already gotten dysregulated, and it's too late for validation to help, at least not in the moment.

I still have a hard time bringing up these topics with my wife after the fact.  There is an incident that just happened today.  I'm hoping I can get myself to say something brief about it tomorrow so that I don't let yet another one go by without saying anything.

[SweetCharlotte]

Definitely, zaq, it is hard to balance backing up the BPDh/w and protecting the children. The more dead-wrong he is, the more he needs me to side with him. And yes, it extends to interpreting others' feelings and motivations too. "She did this in order to undermine your authority." No, she did it because she is as addicted to the Internet as you and I are.

It is fortunate in a way that the uBPDh did not enter my kids' lives until they were 12 and 6 years of age. Their personalities were formed and they were emotionally secure. As problems and even crises have occurred in our r/s, they have learned along with me in how to deal with a family member with emotional instability. They are aware that he is not always on solid ground. He wants to be a good parent with them, but he demands perfection or else his world crumbles.

I can definitely relate to your BPDw's retreat into her room, zaq. Sulking is his refuge, and he stonewalls me while doing it. At least this time, all it required was lip service from me. I lied through my teeth, and he must have known it, as I promised to "always back him up." All I had to do was say the magic words and the conflict was over.

[bpbreakout]

I have D15 and s12 with BPDw and have struggled with these issues for years. I don't have all the answers but maybe something you can take form my experience.

BPDw has often "lectured" me on the need for parents to stand together as a team and that she needs "backing up" as well. When our children were younger I was torn as I truely wanted to support my wife but at the same time I never liked the way she treated the children which was routinely verbally abusive and occasionally physical. I ended up with a compromise of sorts where I always tried to back up what she seemed to be trying to achieve as a parent but was silent on the abusive behaviour and tried to discuss it with BPDw when the children were not around (always dismissed out of hand). It made me feel on the back foot (I think FOG at work here). To be honest it didn't really work for me as at the end of the day I ended up compromising my values on how my children should be treated so actually what we have forgotten (or maybe never had) as a couple is that if BPDw behaviour towards children is abusive then she actually isn't backing me up as I want children to be treated with respect.

Not sure if this makes sense but my current approach is that if children are disrespectful to Mum I will pull them up on it & get them focus on their own self respect and having their own values rather than thinking about their Mum's position (they see her being abusive and sometime try and use it as an excuse for their stuff). I am also quite open with everyone in the family about how I feel about the way BPDw behaves (I try to be respectful in the way I do this but not always possible). The result is that I can give children a the same consequence for being disrespecful to BPDw and BPDw feels "backed up"  if she hasn't reacted abusively but feels "undermined" when she has reacted abusively as I make it clear I'm not happy with her behaviour. Also if I get angry with the children I make a point of tellling them it's wrong for me to do it and apologise & try and get message across that my behaviour is mine and theirs is theirs.

Not quite sure what BPDw's issue is but when she loses her temper with the children anything that isn't 100% in support of her position is "undermining" and she has to "win" the argument, there is something in her FOO but not sure what it is. Sadly I no longer want to be associated with that kind of parenting and I would rather my children saw me as a seperate person with seperate and reasonable values. Not ideal parenting but I the best I can do in my circumstances. The bit that missing with us is that I am not doing much to validate and it's not easy for me to do this without feeling I am vindicating BPW's behaviour. We have had two serious incidents where BPDw has basically assulated d15 after some a very provocative teenage behaviour. I guess everyone has their limits and I have reached mine and perhaps if I had been more sure of myself a few years ago things would be better.

[MissyM]

My dBPDh knows exactly where I stand on the children, that is just not something I have ever been willing to compromise about.  I came into the marriage with a 10 year old daughter (now grown) and under no circumstances was he to discipline her.  I am a very good at disciplining (he will tell you this) and it really wasn't necessary.  He tended to lose it sometimes, when she was being a flippant teenager, and I just would not allow it.  That is a boundary I have always been crystal clear about and we now have young children.  He sometimes flips out on them but the problem is he usually then goes overboard giving in because he recognizes it is wrong.  If I am present, I step in.  This makes him angry but the children and their safety and psychological development are entrusted in my care.  My eldest daughter has turned out fabulously, he is incredibly proud of her and realizes that the way I handle the kids is for their best interest.  Of course, when he gets dysregulated that goes out the window.  When he is regulated again, he gets it.  He feels I undermine him but that is just his issue, he actually undermines himself with the inconsistent parenting.  The kids therapist says that they are remarkably well adjusted considering what they have lived through.  Does your daughter have a therapist? 

[SweetCharlotte]

Thank you, bpbreakout for some very similar experiences that resonate with mine.

No, missy, I don't take the D10 to a therapist (yet). I'm glad you have these issues nice and clear with your dBPDh. I am not so good at discipline myself, so I have in fact enlisted the uBPDh's help with this. He is from a military family, though he was considered a "black sheep" for being too liberal. Definite issues in his FOO, including an inconsistent father who kowtowed to (but was unfaithful to) an insane and sadistic mother. His mother really should have been hospitalized at some point. The father enabled her instead, so she never quite hit bottom. From the stories uBPDh tells, she was horrific.

D10 is a top student with many talents. She is considered gifted in every way, but she has trouble with friendships because she is a demanding little diva. She was like that before I gave her this Dad. When he is not around because of our LD situation, she is definitely worse. If he actually verbally abused or physically assaulted them, that would be my boundary.

[Grey Kitty]

Always back him up. Sounds sticky to me. I think you have been validating the invalid already in some of these cases.

I've got a few interesting questions, even if I don't have any solutions for you as yet.

Have you ever asked him to back you up in something?

If so, how did he respond to that?

Have you asked him (while not in this conflict) whether he wants you to lie to back him up--i.e. say you agree with him even though you completely believe he was wrong?

[MissyM]

Sweet Charlotte, it is tough if he is the disciplinarian.  Have you thought about taking DD to a therapist?  I got some good referrals from my therapist and interviewed a few.  My kids don't have big issues now but I don't want them to end up being big issues when they are older.  I can see my son having poor boundaries and my daughter has temper tantrums still (at the age of 9).  Hers are better than they used to be and started when she spent a week with him and his Mom (she is also BPD and hates other females).  My dBPDh also grew up in a hellish environment, no one should have to go through what he went through with an NPD Dad and a Bpd Mom.  He does respect that I don't want the kids to go through the instability he did.  Where I have failed is fighting with him in front of the kids.  I don't do that anymore.

Both the kids do really well and have never been in any trouble, just don't want them to grow up into wounded adults.  Think most people would think it odd they are in therapy but I can see little signs and don't want them to end up in a relationship like this as adults.  So maybe think about therapy for her.  She would get lots of validation there.

[SweetCharlotte]

Have you ever asked him to back you up in something?

If so, how did he respond to that?

Have you asked him (while not in this conflict) whether he wants you to lie to back him up--i.e. say you agree with him even though you completely believe he was wrong?

When he helps with organizing and disciplining the kids, that is his idea of backing me up. He wants to make sure they respect me, though I have never been focused on that. The trouble is, he does it HIS way. I had to adapt to his preferred method of taking things away from them. As my D10 has become more dependent on devices, that has actually become the only way to control her usage. I got a medium-size safe and her devices are in there 22 out of 24 hours a day. Getting her to surrender them when her time is up is getting more difficult and physical. It's turning into a free-for-all with me as well, although I manage not to hurt her.

I suspect if I asked him whether he wanted me to lie about backing him up, he would be affronted. It isn't compliance if I make it explicit that my backing him up is just lip service in some cases. However, even if he can tell by my expression that I disagree with him, it still counts as backing him up if I say that I do. Weird, I know. I'll ask him about it next time.

[SweetCharlotte]

Have you thought about taking DD to a therapist? I can see my son having poor boundaries and my daughter has temper tantrums still (at the age of 9).

You're right and I'm thinking about it more and more. She's having more conflicts with her frenemies on social websites and via messaging. The only way to get her devices away is by physical struggle. Today she had an actual tantrum over my forbidding her to watch an inappropriate TV program that she can also access on her devices (Pretty Little Liars). It looks like I'll have to cancel Netflix.

Having already met with her pediatrician for a consult, I have some numbers I can call. I'm so booked up as it is; here comes one more kind of regular appointment to keep.

[MissyM]

SweetCharlotte  - Therapy for her sounds like a good plan!  I hear you about being over scheduled.  It can be too much sometimes but it seems to be worth it.

[yeeter]

I have gotten this a lot.  My wife expects me to back her and take her side on everything.

Fact is, that makes no sense, because no two people will every agree on 'everything'.  And some of the drama she creates around our childrens school and other activities, I just dont at all agree with.

So the trick is to state your truth (SET is a great lead in).  Otherwise you will lose your sense of self and your own values and who you are.

With children its 1000 times harder.  She over reacts and comes down on them too hard.  If I intervene, she feels 'disrespected' and then I get the outburst aimed at me.  I figure this is better than the continued berating of the kids, but then also worry if it doesnt pick right back up when Im not around.  Of course to her its reasonable 'punishment' or 'consequence' - it becomes semantics and a word twisting game.

But some of them I have to stand in between (have physically stood in between her and the kids before and told her to 'STOP' - which she responded 'NO' - but then did back off a little).

Last week it was an incident where my D7 poured some water in the jar with the cotton balls on the sink.  Seems like something a curious 7 year old would do.  But my wife got triggered by it and was 'lecturing' my daughter in a way that really wasnt fair (questions like 'why would you DO this?  What were you thinking?) - especially to a 7 year old.  After she yelled at D7, and then came downstairs and vented at me, she went back up and sat D7 down and began lecturing some more.

So I came in and said 'ok, she poured water in the cotton balls and now she knows not to, no big deal'. 

Of course that set her off that I was disrespectful, etc etc. and to 'never talk to me that way again'. 

She doesnt really care whether I believe it or not, she just wants me to go along with what she thinks is 'right'.  (meaning, as long as we all adapt to her view of the world then she is ok with it, even if we dont believe it)

Ok sorry... . my own ramblings.  Im just saying that you HAVE to maintain your own opinions and you HAVE to live them, especially when children are involved.  Otherwise you are deferring to someone with a mental illness for perspective - a dangerous thing.

When it gets into how it impacts the children is when it hits my hot button... .

Tricky stuff.

[SweetCharlotte]

So the trick is to state your truth (SET is a great lead in).  Otherwise you will lose your sense of self and your own values and who you are.

Yes, you're right. This is an ideal situation for SET.

We are dealing with issues even stickier than wet cotton balls. My D10 has become a complete social-media addict. The administrators at her school have her on a "no fly list" because they are constantly called in on issues that have to do with her and her frenemies' Internet use. They are constantly shooting venom at each other. At ten and eleven!

And my S16 is having suicide ideation, according to the parents of one of his pals. They said he confided in their son that he had attempted five times with an electric cord. That is news to me. I don't know if he is just being gothic or what.

So now the entire family, except for uBPDh, will be in counseling.

[Cmjo]

My uBPDh has a thing he calls backing him up. When there is a conflict with a third party, which is usually with my D10 (who is his daughter as well since I had her a few years before we got together using an anonymous donor) or my S16 (his stepson, as he is from my first marriage), he insists that I take his side. This is called "backing him up."

I can understand how important it is to validate his feelings, but sometimes he is not in the right when it comes to these interpersonal conflicts. For example, D10 admittedly uses electronic devices and social media too much. In an effort to take away a device she was hiding, he accidentally (carelessly, as he was being brusque) grazed her face with a water bottle he was holding. She wound up with a small cut or bruise under her eye. I naturally side with her in such an encounter and ask him to be more careful. This results in him heading for the door and threatening to leave for the whole day, when he was supposed to spend the day home with her while I went to work.

Back when our r/s was more tumultuous, I would have stood my ground and he would have gone out the door. I would have spent the day wondering when and if he was coming back (he has on occasion left town over this; it's a commuter/LD marriage so he does have someplace else to go, unfortunately). This time as he stood on the threshold waiting for me to "back him up," I did so. If I validate, it is not enough; I have to express that I am on his side and the other party is wrong. It seems so childish. I guess the thing to do in this case is wait until later and then express my concern that he not cause her any physical harm?

This is a terrible situation to be put in as a mum... . it is behaviour that Made me suffer for years and was finally the trigger to leave, i felt I could not agree with his demands to back him up in the face of what seemed to be verbal, emotional and physical abuse of our children. All mostly directed to our eldest, D10, from the age of 6 onwards, and mainly relating to schoolwork, pressuring her to do more, pointing out her mistakes, saying she wasnt good enough, sometimes pinning her to a chair, grabbing her pencil and forcing her to write, shouting. At first I would come in all guns blazing and tell him to leave her alone that would cause war. I would hear him telling other people that I wouldnt allow m to discipline and educate our children, I was undermining his authority, castrating him as a man, that I wasnt interested in education or helping them... . that if I objected at his outrageous twisting of the truth I was mentally ill... . ! So no... . I think that there is a point beyond which validation becomes siding with an abuser. And that realization broke up our relationship. And now I am to blame for destroying the family... .

[bpbreakout]

Had a strange "backing up" incident where I lost it with my d15 a couple of days ago because the cleaner was coming and her bedroom floor was literally covered in clothes and other bits and pieces, amongst which were 7 bath towels. This meant that very day for a week d15 had gone to the bathroom forgotten her towel(s) was on the bedroom floor and just got another clean one out of the cupboard and then left the new one on the bedroom florr as well.

I was really angry and doing a lot of shouting and ranting. I picked everything off the floor and put the contents into a couple of black binliners anb told d15 she could have the stuff back when she was prepared to put it away.

Anyway the wierd thing was that while I was ranting and raving about the state of d15's bedroom and d15 was getting upset & crying, BPDw joined in the ranting on my "side", I actually had to flick the calm switch and tell BPDw to stop ranting seeing as it was bad enough one of us losing our temper without 2 of us doing it.

I have just put $50 in the swear box for charity as a result of my bad langauge

It's a strange world we (or at least I at any rate) live in !

[SweetCharlotte]

Cmjo,

I'm sorry you had to leave because of these "back me up even when I'm wrong or abusive" issues. I'm sure it was for the best.

Bpbreakout,

We tend to catch some of the tantrums from our SO. I'm sure your BPDw was delighted to see you acting on her level.

I have to admit I am a hot head when it comes to academic performance. Not recently, but in the last five years, I have pinned them to chairs, yelled in their faces, put the pencil in their hands and forced them to write, etc. I'm a professor and it's important to me that they realize their full potential. An educational specialist at my D10's middle school actually beats her kid. I don't believe in that, but there are people in the educational field who take their kids' school achievement too seriously.

Last weekend D10 was cutting, producing scratches on her wrist. I asked her to promise to stop and she refused. She said it makes her feel better. I understand because I used to cut too when I was 16, before there was a name for it.  All uBPDh is interested in is whether I have notified her school. What is the big thing about notifying her school? What will they do to help? He claims I must do this right away or I can be faulted for negligence. To me the priority is her wellbeing. This week I am absolutely swamped with end-of-the-semester deadlines and cannot even begin to make all the appointments that will be necessary.

[zaqsert]

SweetCharlotte, seeing from your note above, it's great that you and your kids will be in therapy.  Hopefully that can help with your D10's cutting.

Bpdbreakout, yeah, we also lose it sometimes.  We are human after all.

One thing I found that seems to go a long way with my D3 is to apologize afterwards.  A few months ago I was trying to get her ready for bed, and she just wanted to play.  I'd had a bad day at work and with my uBPDw, so I was already in a bad mood (not D3's fault, of course).  So at one point, as I'm trying to get her ready, she runs away.  I had already warned her, so as a consequence I started to take away something that she really, really, really wanted.  She cried and cried.

Later, I realized that the consequence I imposed was overkill, by far, compared with what she did.  So the next day I said to her "Sorry I got angry and took away XYZ -- you shouldn't run away when I ask you to stay here, but I went too far."  She smiled and said "That's ok -- sorry I ran away."  And she came over and gave me a huge hug.

My wife never (and I really don't think I'm exaggerating here) says sorry for the things she says and does while dysregulated.  D3 seems to appreciate the apologies, and it helps to teach her how we should approach those situations.