DH asks to discuss preliminary prop settlement w/ my T--what to make of this?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

So as part of the first round of Discovery/Interrogatories, DH was given 30 days to provide certain things--one of which was a proposed Property Settlement Agreement.

He initially asked for a 90 day extension.  I considered giving him 30 but ended up saying NO-- a big THANK YOU  to Forever Dad and Cobaltblue for their prompt, intelligence guidance and support!

So, over the weekend he started emailing some things to consider and we had a one hour phone discussion ... . 48 hours after I was called greedy, amongst other things.  Now, today he is asking to meet with my T to go over these things, as opposed to my attorney, because the T costs less!  I told him the T can't offer legal, financial, accounting advice but he can provide guidance regarding effective communication and guidelines for engaging with one another. 

I'm thinking this is his attempt to go on record demonstrating his "good faith" attempt to negotiate and settle this.  I contacted my T and he said it was up to me.  He reiterated the same points I already had.  I figured I shouldn't be the one to hinder is efforts, odds are he won't be able to contain himself or stay on task anyway and I know my T just wants to see how I've improved in setting my boundaries!  Emailed my attorney... . I already know he isn't going to like the idea.

Thoughts?

[The Mrs]

So as part of the first round of Discovery/Interrogatories, DH was given 30 days to provide certain things--one of which was a proposed Property Settlement Agreement.

He initially asked for a 90 day extension.  I considered giving him 30 but ended up saying NO-- a big THANK YOU  to Forever Dad and Cobaltblue for their prompt, intelligence guidance and support!

So, over the weekend he started emailing some things to consider and we had a one hour phone discussion ... . 48 hours after I was called greedy, amongst other things.  Now, today he is asking to meet with my T to go over these things, as opposed to my attorney, because the T costs less!  I told him the T can't offer legal, financial, accounting advice but he can provide guidance regarding effective communication and guidelines for engaging with one another. 

I'm thinking this is his attempt to go on record demonstrating his "good faith" attempt to negotiate and settle this.  I contacted my T and he said it was up to me.  He reiterated the same points I already had.  I figured I shouldn't be the one to hinder is efforts, odds are he won't be able to contain himself or stay on task anyway and I know my T just wants to see how I've improved in setting my boundaries!  Emailed my attorney... . I already know he isn't going to like the idea.

Thoughts?

[livednlearned]

So as part of the first round of Discovery/Interrogatories, DH was given 30 days to provide certain things--one of which was a proposed Property Settlement Agreement.

He initially asked for a 90 day extension.  I considered giving him 30 but ended up saying NO-- a big THANK YOU  to Forever Dad and Cobaltblue for their prompt, intelligence guidance and support!

So, over the weekend he started emailing some things to consider and we had a one hour phone discussion ... . 48 hours after I was called greedy, amongst other things.  Now, today he is asking to meet with my T to go over these things, as opposed to my attorney, because the T costs less!  I told him the T can't offer legal, financial, accounting advice but he can provide guidance regarding effective communication and guidelines for engaging with one another. 

I'm thinking this is his attempt to go on record demonstrating his "good faith" attempt to negotiate and settle this.  I contacted my T and he said it was up to me.  He reiterated the same points I already had.  I figured I shouldn't be the one to hinder is efforts, odds are he won't be able to contain himself or stay on task anyway and I know my T just wants to see how I've improved in setting my boundaries!  Emailed my attorney... . I already know he isn't going to like the idea.

Thoughts?

Who would he be demonstrating his "good faith" to? It doesn't sound to me like he understands the legal process.

The ideal scenario would be two fully detached people resolving the business end of their relationship, but that rarely happens. My guess is that your ex wants to convince your T that you are wrong and he is right. Even with non-BPD partners, there is this urge to convince the opposing parties' lawyer that we are "right" and the BPD sufferer is wrong. I felt that way. I suspect it's common. Maybe your ex feels this way about your T.

Honestly, it's weird. Getting BPD sufferers to agree to a settlement, and then comply with it, is usually a fraught process. You want him to just stick to the timeline and focus on getting things done in a timely way. He wants to stay negatively engaged and focus on keeping you on your heels.

If he wants to mediate, bring in your lawyers and hire a mediator to go back and forth between you.

And if you figure out how to do any of this without spending boatloads of cash, please share here. 

[The Mrs]

Re who he would be demonstrating his "good faith" to... . anybody that would listen!  Our grown adult  kids for starters.  I also suspect, at some point, he would be asking for a letter fro the T documenting his attendance at that session and that we discussed settlement issues. 

[ForeverDad]

Your T is for you.  Is he wanting to show he's not the person you painted him to be?  Is he a good manipulator or good rewriting history?  While he may flame out, it's likely he will be a different person than the one you know and try to say to the T that you're a different person than the T knows.

[cobaltblue]

NO.

If you're using T to represent Therapist, then NO.

Your therapist is for you and is not trained in mediating legal matters.

The reason your H is asking for this is because he's either looking for a third party advocate to try to convince or plant doubt into who may ultimately testify on your behalf, or he wants to see what they know about him and he's fishing.

There is no scenario that plays out in your favor by you agreeing to let this happen and no reason for it to happen as part of the legal process.

Frankly I'm surprised you had a one hour conversation with him. I've started cutting mine off after a couple minutes and asking for it via email because what's not written was never said, and they like to use phone and speech to bully because there is no record or trail of it unless you record it.

Just move forward with the process, don't expect much from mediation but more posturing and bullying.

I'm in the same boat, going to mediation in a week. I expect it to last about 10 mins until she sees that she's not getting what she wants. There is no settling with a BPD. If you don't agree with what they want, they act as if there is something wrong with you. Don't play the game.

[The Mrs]

I ended up "uninviting" him from the counseling session... .

He had texted me twice in one day to confirm that the meeting was on and I got a little suspicious. 

I went to our online court repository and sure enough that is where I found out about the filing of the request for the 90 day extension and the 90 day stay on the divorce due to the belief on "the defendant's part that there are no Irreconciilable Differences and the marriage is repairable"!'

I felt so manipulated.  I mean what is the point in going to talk about a prop settlement if you are trying to block the divorce?  I'm figuring he was going to then spin around and report that we were in couples counseling together!

Then 3 days later was when my attorney received the request to go to mediation!  Games, games, games! 

[livednlearned]

When you truly detach, you start to see the negative BPD behaviors as helpful. My ex is impulsive, which means he can't stop himself from sending nasty emails that I use for documentation. He is extremely narcissistic, which means he underestimates me, no matter how many times he loses in court. The combination of both means he feels compelled to lecture me on how dumb I am, revealing what he plans to do or say next. He also drinks to excess, and this makes him disorganized.

Your ex plays on your sympathies, and assumes you aren't smart enough to figure him out. You are. Put together a list of questions for your lawyer -- what in the answer to the divorce complaint will the judge actually care about. Most judges don't read them, and a lot of what your ex says carries no weight. A lot of the legal stuff around financial settlement is very rule-bound and not at all emotional. If kids aren't involved, it's a lot less messy. When your ex riles you up like this, write down questions you need to ask your L about what matters, what doesn't. Usually, it will be very straightforward. I got to the point with my L where I would write an email that just said, "Is there anything in this document that I need to be concerned about?" Granted, I grew to trust her. Not everyone here feels that way about their lawyer.

BPD sufferers have an emotional logic in which there is very little to no empathy, and this puts them at a tremendous disadvantage in most relationships. Just because we fell prey to this disordered logic in our intimate relationship doesn't mean other people won't see it for what it is. Your ex lacks empathy, so most of what he does (without intensive therapy and treatment) will not benefit you. Including one-hour phone conversations. I agree with cobaltblue that one-hour conversations are probably of zero benefit and might actually harm you in the long run. Maybe if your boundaries are strong you could use these conversations for information gathering, but most of us struggle with boundaries during the early stages of divorce. Better to just use email. That might be a good boundary to practice now while you're getting your feet under you. See if you can assert this boundary, and then consistently stick to it. If you do, expect your ex to escalate in some way as he tests to see how serious you are.  

Just move forward with the process, don't expect much from mediation but more posturing and bullying.

I'm in the same boat, going to mediation in a week. I expect it to last about 10 mins until she sees that she's not getting what she wants. There is no settling with a BPD. If you don't agree with what they want, they act as if there is something wrong with you. Don't play the game.

I agree with this in general, although keep in mind that you can also agree with the things you agree to, and then leave the things you don't to be decided later by the courts. In my mediation, we settled 90% after 9 hours of mediation. Talk to your lawyer about this. Ask if that's how it can work in your mediation. I was able to settle all of our financial affairs, and most of custody. I wouldn't agree to joint legal custody because I knew N/BPDx would prevent me from making decisions on behalf of S12 just to be difficult. So my order says the parties agree to all of these xyz things, and then one item said the parties cannot agree to joint legal custody and the issue must be brought before the judge. Eventually, we went to court for that one issue.

You don't want to wait 2 years on things that you need settled right now, and already you know your ex is willing to file for extensions and continuances. You have to settle your emotions as much as you can, and figure out how the laws work for your particular situation. Talk to a fee-only financial planner and present different scenarios to help figure out what would be a best-case for you. 

Also, if you are still enmeshed with him and feel he will undermine you in mediation, ask about being in separate rooms. The benefit is that you aren't susceptible to his manipulations. The disadvantage is that you have to rely on the mediator to convey what is being said. And mediators are motivated to settle -- they pride themselves on that. In some ways, they are just another person you need to manage and second-guess. Everyone in that room will have an agenda, so you need to be crystal clear what your agenda is, what your bottom line is, what you're willing to negotiate. And just know that your lawyer and the mediator will exert subtle (sometimes not subtle at all) pressure on you to accept things. Chances are really good that you are going to end up in court, either to settle things, or to get your ex to comply, because: BPD. So if you sense that you are being persuaded to accept something that isn't reasonable, then end the session. The key is to know very clearly what you want, what you aren't willing to budge on, and how things work -- including what is reasonable for normal divorces, and what is reasonable for a high-conflict divorce. There's a big difference. For example, in BPD divorces, we spend a lot of money back in court, usually for non-compliance. You should budget for that in your mind when you settle.

Also, talk to your lawyer about who pays for mediation. If your ex is the sole breadwinner, or earns more than you, he should pay.  

[cobaltblue]

No more phone conversations with this guy.

No more engaging by email or text.

OK to save his voicemails as evidence. OK to save texts - do it. Save all emails.

But stop engaging. If you must engage, read the "BIFF" book and keep them limited to a few sentences, on the understanding that what he is doing is two things:

1. Trying to hurt you, confuse you or waste your time.

2. Probing for information.

Or both.

Him wanting to discuss a preliminary property settlement is so totally inappropriate it makes me laugh. That's just him looking for your reaction as to what he might be able to offer you that will be accepted and where the roadblocks might be. He's just probing for negotiation information.

Just tell him to pound sand and if he has anything for you to review prior to litigation, please send it through his attorney to yours and you will be happy to review it, but you will NOT DISCUSS IT. Because he's looking for reactions and feedback to use.