Is that Pavlov's dog I hear whimpering?

[Depression = 72% of members]

One of my favorite books is The Bourne Identity, which is about a man who has lost his memory and is trying to regain it but has a great deal of difficulty because he has been programmed by his government for a completely different agenda - namely to draw an assassin out into the open so he can be stopped.

I really think this has a lot of parallels with the children of a BPD parent who has difficulty finding his authentic self due to early programming to focus on  the parent and the parent's needs.

In particular there is a very interesting exchange where a doctor tells the patient to try and free associate when under stress to see what feelings and ideas come up naturally that can help point him towards his real identity.

My dog had puppies a few weeks ago and recently almost all of them went missing. At first I was confident that I would find them all or that they would return or be returned if someone found them but after hours of searching, my stress levels rose and I was struggling to hold back fear, grief and hysteria.

Well whilst I was under stress I found myself distancing myself from the fear, confusion and helplessness I felt and in so doing, began to notice how increasingly erratic my thoughts and feelings were becoming. I found myself bargaining and apologising to no one in particular in the hopes of finding peace. I kept blaming myself even though it was not really my fault and I wondered what I had done? I was trying to connect the events to myself in some incomprehensible way till it was becoming more, much more than what it really was.

I got to thinking about Pavlov's dog. Classical conditioning. Why, when something frightening and painful was happening to me was I begging for forgiveness (for what?) and apologising over and over (for doing what?) And why was I bargaining and who was I bargaining with?

And it slowly dawned on me. It was an echo of the confusion of a child that didn't know what it had done. That had no realistic point to connect behavior with consequence. Inexplicably scared and sorry but not really sure what for.

It made me really reflect on the harm that disordered parenting can bring about even in a well informed reasonably sane kind of person as myself (and I use the term sane loosely - many of my friends might disagree!)

I think I discovered how important it is to listen to the cries of the child within who may still be stuck in incomprehension. To find a way to soothe and say "This isn't your fault. You are not the cause of this." And to be honest with myself that when I am scared, I may be responding, not to today's thing but to echoes of long ago. To separate the past from the present and to believe that some things are just beyond my control

Oh btw, don't worry - they all came back at the end of the day worn out with their adventure and happy to get food and cuddles. Holey moley what a day

[Ziggiddy]

One of my favorite books is The Bourne Identity, which is about a man who has lost his memory and is trying to regain it but has a great deal of difficulty because he has been programmed by his government for a completely different agenda - namely to draw an assassin out into the open so he can be stopped.

I really think this has a lot of parallels with the children of a BPD parent who has difficulty finding his authentic self due to early programming to focus on  the parent and the parent's needs.

In particular there is a very interesting exchange where a doctor tells the patient to try and free associate when under stress to see what feelings and ideas come up naturally that can help point him towards his real identity.

My dog had puppies a few weeks ago and recently almost all of them went missing. At first I was confident that I would find them all or that they would return or be returned if someone found them but after hours of searching, my stress levels rose and I was struggling to hold back fear, grief and hysteria.

Well whilst I was under stress I found myself distancing myself from the fear, confusion and helplessness I felt and in so doing, began to notice how increasingly erratic my thoughts and feelings were becoming. I found myself bargaining and apologising to no one in particular in the hopes of finding peace. I kept blaming myself even though it was not really my fault and I wondered what I had done? I was trying to connect the events to myself in some incomprehensible way till it was becoming more, much more than what it really was.

I got to thinking about Pavlov's dog. Classical conditioning. Why, when something frightening and painful was happening to me was I begging for forgiveness (for what?) and apologising over and over (for doing what?) And why was I bargaining and who was I bargaining with?

And it slowly dawned on me. It was an echo of the confusion of a child that didn't know what it had done. That had no realistic point to connect behavior with consequence. Inexplicably scared and sorry but not really sure what for.

It made me really reflect on the harm that disordered parenting can bring about even in a well informed reasonably sane kind of person as myself (and I use the term sane loosely - many of my friends might disagree!)

I think I discovered how important it is to listen to the cries of the child within who may still be stuck in incomprehension. To find a way to soothe and say "This isn't your fault. You are not the cause of this." And to be honest with myself that when I am scared, I may be responding, not to today's thing but to echoes of long ago. To separate the past from the present and to believe that some things are just beyond my control

Oh btw, don't worry - they all came back at the end of the day worn out with their adventure and happy to get food and cuddles. Holey moley what a day

[lucyhoneychurch]

Ziggiddy... . wow - so glad to know they are all home safe and sound. 

How timely for me - just Googling those photos with quotes and adages across them - "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" with courage and fear being my search... .

I'm in a "puppy has gone missing" but it's the youngest child, who, through absolute and awful choices of my own, with a man I know here that I've "dated" if you can call it that... . who has set my child off time and again over the last year or more with his behavior... .

She is dating a very sweet young man who is hounded at home by a dad very much like my friend. Just to be brief - once introduced to my friend who lost his own son by suicide 2 1/2 years ago, this young man is now very very much in the "pedestal" phase of idealization - where I was 2 years ago with him. The sun rose and set on me.

Devaluation over the months with me tryhing to speak up for myself, at my child's behest (WHY do you let him treat you that way?). Her boyfriend is now this man's pet, this man's "adopted" son. And sooner than later this poor boy is going to be hit hard with a rage and a temper that will bring him so low like she describes he experiences at home all the time.

I am breathless with the idea that someone I brought into my home with all the well-meaning motives - it was dead of winter, his son was dead, we'd known each other for years - but oh my god... . I knew him and his "kill or be killed" mentality, racist bigot awful stuff but it'd always just been topics I could walk away from happenstance as I encountered him in town.

Puppies on the loose... . puppies possibly in danger... . yes... . he is aware that her name is on a tax-exempt account that I got via the divorce, because of my big mouth basically when I was living in fear of doing the paperwork wrong (things with lines to sign and notarize are like cannons in my face!) and possibly screwing it up.  I've designated her and an older sibling as splitting that account, while another would get this house. Meanwhile my paperwork being good as gold - his taxes are all over, not paid, farm is liened to no end... . and with him pulling this young man in... . my worst thoughts run to the drastic panic that he will get this $$ out of them if they are together (you can use it non-taxed to buy your first home) but of course that is if I am dead - you see how nuts this is getting! I bet you are >>right here<<wiht me as I karoom out of control... . this loving friend that I know and who knows him and just loathes him... . talked me down . But really... . I am going to put the word out that she is not getting it... . not to be crazy but if that amount is removed from where he thinks he can get at it... . I'm not kidding... . she's of no interest to him.

Pavlov - I let this man into our lives. I kept him in our lives even as she was really almost downright abusive about how she couldnt' stand him. And now they are at concerts with him and he's paying for tickets and the young man drives his drunken arse back to farm with her in truck... . oh god... . slippery slope to her mother mentally hypoxic from it all.

Pavlov's bell has rung and I am drooling and overwrought and thinking the worst.

Because back when I was a girl and the poo hit the fan, one way or another, it was my fault. Or a sibling's fault. Or some total stranger's fault.

Yes, we are programmed. Yes we are wired. Yes we are prey to the fleetingest flights of fantastical "the worst has happened" thoughts. Rightly so.

I am not realistically the cause of this man's brutal behavior. He's been like this for decades. But I connect his ties to my home and my heart and my child with my stupid idea that being his friend in his grief was a good thing. That's hard for me to let go right now. He is a black hole, like my mother was a black hole, like his own father was a black hole that he still harps about.

I'm a Robert Ludlum fan too. Yes, finding an identity that's safe and where you aren't jumping at shadows - perhaps real ones, like this man who has power over this BF of hers because his own dad is so hurtful - and this farmer is so slick and manipulative. I can only pray her Scotch-Irish blood will out and she will cut loose on him as she has on me when she's p'd off.

"Why was I bargaining and who was I bargaining with?" you ask. Me too. Sometimes I just scoff at the gods of the universe like, ARE YOU SERIOUS? because I think we've been given enough. My bad judgement about this awful man simply cannot eat another hole in my life but I am working at facing down that fear this very minute.

Your post really struck me. Thank you for letting it all hang out. 

[P.F.Change]

Well whilst I was under stress I found myself distancing myself from the fear, confusion and helplessness I felt and in so doing, began to notice how increasingly erratic my thoughts and feelings were becoming. I found myself bargaining and apologising to no one in particular in the hopes of finding peace. I kept blaming myself even though it was not really my fault and I wondered what I had done? I was trying to connect the events to myself in some incomprehensible way till it was becoming more, much more than what it really was.

This is a really good example of automatic, reflexive thoughts. Noticing them is a big step.  I like that you were able to challenge them by talking to your inner child. Did your feelings change after doing this?

Do you think you will be more aware the next time you are feeling anxious and be able to stop and challenge the thoughts again?

Wishing you peace,

PF

[Ziggiddy]

lucy- wow. A little overwhelming. Not too sure what to make of it all but I can't imagine that blaming yourself for bringing this man into your life and your family's life in his time of need is helpful. No doubt you were doing what you could at the time with the knowledge you have.

Have you read the article about reframing painful thoughts? I'll link it here. Although not specific to your situation it might help you to feel less fear. As you once said to me, hypoxia is no way to live!

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=137440.0

This is a really good example of automatic, reflexive thoughts. Noticing them is a big step.  I like that you were able to challenge them by talking to your inner child. Did your feelings change after doing this?

Do you think you will be more aware the next time you are feeling anxious and be able to stop and challenge the thoughts again?

PF it was such a novel experience for me that I don't know if I can answer if it would be easier to do it again. I really think it's worthwhile to 'train for emergencies' if you know what I mean. Luckily that was a situation of rising fear rather than a WHOMP! fear hits you full on with no warning.

Whilst having my first argument with my mother in literally decades a few weeks ago I was mired in sudden onset paralytic fear. it took repeated calming and reasonable self talk to keep from suffocating on it. I stood my ground and stood by the breach in the r/ship that standing my ground brought. i got through it with the thought "This is not my fault or my problem' but I didn't really believe it. I'm hoping to find some kind of reasoning that will ring true with me so it's not 'imposed' but rather a natural logical conclusion.

So sudden fear might swamp my senses and make it more difficult to access free association but I live in hope!

The talking to the inner child thing was AMAZING. To view myself from the outside was novel and touching. I believe it was you who recommended doing this on a thread about bullying. At the time I read it, the thought caused a great gasping sob and an access to a door that I didn't know existed. It's one I know I'm not ready to go through yet, and most certainly not alone. I am working on trying to build a large enough trust with someone to have waiting nearby the door when i go through it.yes, I'm scared. But curious too.

A friend was recently talking to me about some terrible childhood events she had experienced and I had this vision of her as a little kid, sitting on a bed with her teddy bear and I was overwhelmed with grief and outrage for her. How DARE they treat this beautiful little girl this way? Almost as an afterthought was the idea that I simply did not feel that same outrage and fury on my own behalf.

[lucyhoneychurch]

Sorry didn't mean to run at you with all of that!   it had just sort of all come to a head this past weekend. Up to me now where I shelve or disassemble the guilt.

Thinking about your analogy to Pavlov's bell and the conditioning - I remember preparing to get a really lovely little Lab and reading up on it... . and we all know dogs go fairly crazy when it's supper time/chow time. The advice was just to make it all as low key as possible. It worked, she didn't do that crazy stuff as we filled her bowl. With us as children, you could cut the tension with a knife all the time, every day, and even if things were quiet, you just knew that your world could crumple at any moment.

Like children living in war-torn countries now.  :'(  How could they ever move to safer places and feel safe in their hearts and minds?

I heartily agree about the empathy and outrage you felt for your friend and seeing her mentally as a woebegone little thing - yet not how you've seen yourself. I think some of my saddest mental images where the conditioning was so horrific was from age 4 or so to about age 10. I can still see the bedroom I had, the carpet, the drapes on the window which were beautiful heavy chintzy custom curtains, the filmy panels behind them. And me just sitting on my bed, which had a dove carved into the headboard framed with roses, and just tracing those flowers over and over with my finger when I was so so down. Children simply should not have to live in a world of such despair and depression. I don't know what that dove meant to me, but it always felt like it was watching over me. Nothing else seemed to be. My Facebook profile pic right now is a little tiny girl with platinum blonde hair holding a "mini me" doll even dressed the same. Her huge blue eyes look shocky, almost, stunned, and she's only 3. I want that baby girl on my lap with my arms around her and telling her to just hold on, many good things ARE on the way... . but years down the road.   :'(

[Surnia]

  Ziggiddy

I think you are really on to something very important here. It sounds like a  moment in your life.

And I agree with P.F Change on this one:

This is a really good example of automatic, reflexive thoughts. Noticing them is a big step.  I like that you were able to challenge them by talking to your inner child. Did your feelings change after doing this?

I personally believe and have experienced that yes, we have our patterns, our conditioning like P. Dog. And more important: I believe in reprogramming. So with awareness and love for your inner child you can find new ways.

Please keep us posted about it. 

[livednlearned]

Why, when something frightening and painful was happening to me was I begging for forgiveness (for what?) and apologising over and over (for doing what?) And why was I bargaining and who was I bargaining with?

And it slowly dawned on me. It was an echo of the confusion of a child that didn't know what it had done. That had no realistic point to connect behavior with consequence. Inexplicably scared and sorry but not really sure what for.

It made me really reflect on the harm that disordered parenting can bring about even in a well informed reasonably sane kind of person as myself (and I use the term sane loosely - many of my friends might disagree!)

I think I discovered how important it is to listen to the cries of the child within who may still be stuck in incomprehension. To find a way to soothe and say "This isn't your fault. You are not the cause of this." And to be honest with myself that when I am scared, I may be responding, not to today's thing but to echoes of long ago. To separate the past from the present and to believe that some things are just beyond my control

Thanks for writing this Ziggiddy. I agree with Surnia -- this is so important! I feel so happy for you, because this is the kind of  that will be with you forever. Once you have this insight, it's going to be there whenever you want to pick it up and use it. Some situations will probably be more challenging and your physical reactions might make you feel paralyzed like the argument you mentioned with your mom.

If it's like reconditioning, then it makes sense that soothing yourself and developing new ways of responding would be easier to practice first on puppies  , then strangers, then acquaintances, then close friends, then eventually work your way up to the most challenging people in your life.

What a wonderful and amazing insight. And thank you for writing it so clearly -- I feel it helped me make some important connections in my own understanding. 

[Ziggiddy]

Like children living in war-torn countries now.  :'(  How could they ever move to safer places and feel safe in their hearts and minds?

I heartily agree about the empathy and outrage you felt for your friend and seeing her mentally as a woebegone little thing - yet not how you've seen yourself. 

As always you made me think, lucy. You evoke in me a motivation to have compassion for myself. That is no small thing. I thought my compassion gland was all worn out. Now I realise it shouldn't all go to my mother. 

Surnia and PF - isn't it interesting that moments pass in your life without fanfare or waving "Look at me!" most of the time. But the flashbulbs ... . well they are for forever. Thank you so much for your comments. i was kind of basking in them! And I liked it