Losing your voice

[OutOfEgypt]

In my experience, perhaps the most destructive thing my ex did to me had to do with constantly casting doubt on my own voice.  Everything I felt, thought, perceived was either wrong, misguided, skewed, stupid, inexperienced, or somehow inferior and subordinate to what she saw and felt.  You get to the point where you feel like it is wrong to protect yourself, to stand up for yourself, to feel anger and indignation to how they treat you.  So, you lose your voice.  You bury it.  You become brainwashed.  Your borders are defenseless, and they come through and trample everything within your land for their own use, or just for sport.

This is the part that my ex wife doesn't see and will never own up to.  The affairs -hard to deny those when you are caught!  But with this, this again is all my imagination.

It really is like brainwashing.  The thought police is there to condemn your every reaction, to invalidate your every feeling if it in some way points out wrong in her or challenges her dominance.

I remember early on in the relationship, in the very beginning, I still had a voice.  When she would flirt and chat all the time with guys in her chat rooms, even before we married but also after we got married, I would speak up.  But she played on my (and most guys) natural fear of being labelled "controlling" and told me I was wrong to feel the way I felt.  According to her, I was being insecure, controlling, and overreacting.  She's just flirting "for fun", after all!  And then during the first few months of our marriage she was chatting it up with a guy she had just dated.  I needed to relax about that, too.  And then she got in contact with her ex boyfriend, the guy she almost married after being in a relationship for two and a half years, and again I needed to back off and understand that she still had some things and feelings to resolve with him.

I was too "inexperienced" (and I was) to get it.

In other words, if anything I felt interfered with anything she wanted to do, it was wrong.  I just needed to understand and shut up and accept that all of those things ought to be acceptable because I "can't keep her" if she doesn't want to stay.  The same went for her the future internet relationships she became utterly consumed with, sleeping all day, dumping responsibilities on me, all the things I did alone.  I just needed to stop being so unappreciative and controlling.

It is this... .this kind of emotional control and abuse... .that has done perhaps the biggest number on me.  I still wake up in the morning feeling completely exposed, vulnerable, and like I am not allowed to have boundaries or even defend myself from someone who is going to swoop in when she pleases, trample any boundaries or sense of identity I have, take what she wants, crap on the rest, and tell me it's right.  When you lose your voice, you lose your identity, you lose what allows you to feel and be a distinct person.  And you become just a tool for someone else's use.

Thankfully, I've come a long, long way.  But it still haunts me.  I still feel like the bogeyman (or in this case, bogeywoman) is prowling the room when I awake in the early morning hours.  I still feel like I want to run, to flee, but there is nowhere to run to.  It is a harrowing feeling.

[half-life]

This is a great thought. Arguments and affairs are obvious problems. But doubt and mistrust, they happen underneath the surface. You have to constantly defend yourself over her doubt and disapproval. It happens silently over a long time. You look back and find that you have lost yourself and left with an hollow body.

I can't help thinking what would it be like if I'm with a normal person. What is life like if there is just mild trust between the two.

[Caramel]

That's the worst thing that happened to me too! I lost my voice. I constantly doubted myself. I no more knew what was right and what was wrong. I could not find my values, my  morals, my beliefs. I lost my self confidence.

He used to do the same thing. "Everything I felt, thought, perceived was either wrong, misguided, skewed, stupid, inexperienced, or somehow inferior and subordinate to what he saw and felt."

He also had this close female "friend" that I was compared to constantly. It still hurts me how he mentioned that my comments and thoughts were always so childish and immature compared to him and his friend's. When these two talked they did not even look at me, as if I did not even exist in the room. And if I ever gave an opinion he humiliated me and made me feel inferior and dumb in front of her.

And it was not only about what I said, it was about what I thought and what I felt as well. That patronising look on his face when I talked. How he always looked down on me. That patronising tone in his voice, telling me that I was fine but I just had to work a bit more on myself!

And of course no boundaries. I feel ashamed to tell you how far he pushed my boundaries. He told me what clothes to wear, how to dance and how to take a shower! Did not even let me close the toilet door!

When I was accused and blamed for what I had not done, which happened very often, I had to stay quiet. If I tried to explain or defend myself he raised his voice telling me that I was justifying my mistakes again. That I did not even get what he was saying. And he did all those things in front of friends.

I eventually turned into this quiet person who did not have any ideas. I no more had anything to say. First it was because I was afraid that what ever I said could make him angry or be perceived as stupid, unimportant, wrong, immature. But then eventually I really did not have any idea! It was as if I no more had a brain! Only if I agreed with him I could talk.

And then he started giving me a hard time about being quiet and distant. That I did not trust and love him! What did he expect?

It's been over 4 months since he has broken up with me. Right after the break up I felt terrible. There was no identity left. I was literally a zombie with no thoughts, feelings and self  esteem. It took my mind and spirit a while to heel. I'm still recovering from the trauma. It's going to be a long journey. But I'm already feeling the improvement. I'm practicing with my therapist how to set boundaries and how to defend them. To stand up for my values. To express my feelings if  someone is hurting me. To say my opinion. I'm learning to face my fears and realising that it's ok to lose people. I'm posting here and reading a lot. Giving myself time and taking care of myself. I have made my self improvement my goal. I have made myself my priority for the first time. And I'm noticing the improvements already. It's an opportunity for us to go deeper and find the core issues that make us prone to abuse.

We will be fine. And this time we will be even better than before.

Hang in there. We are here for you. We are all in this together.

[learnandgrow]

My ex also ignored sleeping with someone else, even after caught being red handed. They show no sympathy. Her response, "Could you blame me for seeking the affection and attention elsewhere?"

Yes. Yes I could.

[mitchell16]

is this not a form of gaslighting? Mine would try to convince that what i saw withmy own two was not what i thought I saw. and if I could nail her with the facts that showed what I was saying was correct it was all just a misunderstanding or she would fall back to the good ole " I was just to controlling " or " your just to insecure" or my favorite was i just  to paranoid. The best one it was never her fault/ Some stary man gets her number and starts texting her it was anyshe did it wa sher best friend that gave out her number. It really enough to drive a person crazy.

[OutOfEgypt]

It is enough to drive a person crazy, for sure.  More than enough.  This is psychological warfare.  I almost wrote "like psychological warfare," but then I deleted the "like" part.  Let's call a spade a spade.  It is designed to keep them in control, on top, and avoiding their guilt and shame.

The other day, I mentioned to my ex that our daughter needs clothes.  She said, "Oh, I can take her.  She likes to go with her mommy, anyway."  I said, "Ok."  But I thought to myself, "No, she doesn't.  And you don't like taking her!  You get all pissed off at her because she doesn't like the same things you like!  And I know she doesn't like going with you because of that."  Later, I asked my daughter if she wanted me to take her shopping or if she wanted to wait for her mom to take her.  She was like, "Why wait?"  I told her that her mom claimed she likes going with her better, and I'm fine with that.  She was like, "When have I ever said that?" 

Why lie to me about something to small?  Just so that I stop feeling good about my relationship with my daugther, just to drive a wedge and make me think that her mom is suddenly becoming her favorite?  (something which she says all the time, too, which is also not true)  It's just unbelievable the amount of stupid things these people say.  I'm really exhausted from dealing with it.

[Ventus2ct]

Know exactly what you mean OutofEgypt, exactly, I had the same but thankfully was not married to her, constant devaluation, criticism, anything you mentioned or questioned her about regarding behavior that normally I would stamp on so darn quickly in any other relationship I let pass.

I let all my boundaries down in an effort to show how much I was trying, I was so "un me" it wasn't true.

I was ruminating about silly things today, thinking about the most stupid thing I did in our relationship.

It was as follows, during the last week we were together, I spent most of the week at hers so I brought a toothbrush to use at hers (as believed we were making a go of it) after using it she stated "you can't put it on the sink with mine, you'll have to put it in the drawer" and do you know the sick thing about it all was that I ACTUALLY did do that, that was how far gone I was, pathetic excuse for a man I was.

I was constantly labelled as controlling, told me she was walking on eggshells all the time, while I'm sat there not knowing if I had a relationship or not depending on how she felt.

Holidays were another favorite of hers, I had 2, one skiing with some friends, she texted 2 days into my holiday saying she didn't wish to see me etc etc…

2nd time i was away flying for a week and the same, she texts and says she needs a 2 month break 2 days into it, it seemed that she would do anything to ruin any time or chance I had for relaxation and enjoyment.

I do wonder how and what state i would be in now if she didn't end it when she did, I felt completely destroyed by this style of treatment, especially in light of opening up 110% to her, something I rarely do.

I think we as men or women have certain qualities that attract them, i was strong, self opinionated, happy, successful, striking and knew what I wanted or thought I did, are we just a challenge to these people or do they see something in us, our vulnerabilities perhaps or do we show signs of a tough childhood that they can see but no-one else can?

I so wish I knew then what I know now, would the outcome have been any different? I suspect not but I do suspect the pain would not have been so great. My god, I was a weak, needy, desperate, limp little man and I let it happen…….

[OutOfEgypt]

I so wish I knew then what I know now, would the outcome have been any different?

I've had a friend or two, believing they are "macho", suggest that maybe things would have been different if we had "put our foot down" with these people.  Sorry, I don't buy that.  These folks have no sense of responsibility and respond to boundaries as threats.  Besides, it is through years of constant invalidation and gaslighting and emotional abuse that we become so sunk.  It they gave it to us all at once, at the beginning, there's no way we would take it.  They do it painstakingly, carefully, at the right times, after they have us hooked.  They capitalize on our weaknesses, and they exploit our vulnerabilities and doubts.

I came to the conclusion that the only thing different would have been that I left about a decade sooner and kissed her fake arse goodbye.

[Ventus2ct]

Yes, a "macho" style would not have worked at all in my case, I was meaning just to be more aware of what was going on, maybe i could have cut and run instead of the very gradual decline (that we fail to really notice at the time) until we hit the bottom. I feel I have bottomed out now, was suicidal two weeks ago, even had a BB cartridge on the table, ready, the brass neck polished by my constant rubbing with my hand, it's still sat there but I am stronger now, i just look at it to remind me where I was 2 weeks ago.

Strange old world! 

[Tausk]

Yes, I lost my voice.   Moreover, I lost myself to the Disorder.  But the question is why?  Why did I permit this to happen?  And how do I recover?

If I just analyze the interaction as a function of my ex's behavior and how evil she was and how she didn't care... .then for me I get stuck in the cycle of resentment of the past, anger at the present and fear of the future.  Resentment, Anger, Fear... .Over and over and over... .ground hog day forever.  And the worst part of this cycle is that the perpetrator of the abuse, doesn't even know that she committed the abuse, doesnt understand her role, can not face me to talk to me, can not offer me any form or closure, and has basically painted me evil, forgotten me and attached herself to another.   If I stay stuck in resentment, anger and fear, there is no room for personal responsibility.  I am perpetually a victim.  I never recover.  Some people don't recover and waste and lifetime in bitterness.  It was a very destructive interaction.

But, I came to the board to recover.  And here I am validated.  My anger, frustration, confusion, fears, feelings are validated for the first time.  Here I am understood. Here I am heard.  My feelings and needs were never validated by my ex, and for some reason, I didn't seem to need her valdiation  :'(   Here I find others who lived the same patterns and are lost in the same state.  And most importantly, I find people who are recoverying and have recovered and I learn the tools and find the paths for recovery.  

Everything that has been written in this thread are symptoms of the Disorder.  The Disorder is real, more powerful than me, does not want happiness, and always wins.  My ex really didn't have a chance.  She just wasn't strong enough with me to do the work and manage the Disorder.   Under the circumstances, she did the best she could as any traumatized three-year old.  That's all she is.   In the end, I realize I was a trigger and really didn't help her.  In fact, I might have pushed her deeper into the disorder.

And now that I accept this fact, then I can look at why I participated.  Why it felt ok.  Why I got lost in the Disorder.  And how I can recover and be the person that I've always dreamed that I wanted to be.    

[Ventus2ct]

And now that I accept this fact, then I can look at why I participated.  Why it felt ok.  Why I got lost in the Disorder.  And how I can recover and be the person that I've always dreamed that I wanted to be.    

This is why I am here but really struggling to identify some areas/answers, maybe I have not accepted the fact that she is indeed like a 3 year old. But then when I told her i loved her on occasion, the reply I would get was "No, you don't" so guess that tells me all I need to know.

[Mr Hollande]

I so wish I knew then what I know now, would the outcome have been any different?

I've had a friend or two, believing they are "macho", suggest that maybe things would have been different if we had "put our foot down" with these people.  Sorry, I don't buy that.  These folks have no sense of responsibility and respond to boundaries as threats.  Besides, it is through years of constant invalidation and gaslighting and emotional abuse that we become so sunk.  It they gave it to us all at once, at the beginning, there's no way we would take it.  They do it painstakingly, carefully, at the right times, after they have us hooked.  They capitalize on our weaknesses, and they exploit our vulnerabilities and doubts.

I came to the conclusion that the only thing different would have been that I left about a decade sooner and kissed her fake arse goodbye.

The above is the absolute truth from my experience. I am certainly a suffer no fools kind of man and many have found out the hard way when trying to push me around. But faced with the horrors of my BPD ex I found myself exposed and defenceless. I believe I tried everything. Anger, aggression, reason, pleading, love... .nothing helped. I was like someone tied to the tracks waiting for a train to run me over and it did every time without fail. Being tough or whatever you'd call it has nothing to do with it.

[OutOfEgypt]

Being tough or whatever you'd call it has nothing to do with it.

Yup, it truly doens't.

[earthgirl]

Did not even let me close the toilet door!

Our first REALLY big fight was over this.  He barged in (without knocking) when I was peeing.  I snapped at him (I think I said, "IS NOTHING SACRED?"  And I left to cool off.  When I came back, he'd taken a knife and carved up his arm.  The scars are still there.  One other time I got upset because I turned around to see he'd been watching me while I was taking a shower.  It just, y'know, creeped me out.  His response was to accuse me of body dysmorphia.

You know, seeing this stuff typed out really makes me ask myself why I'm on the staying board... .

[OutOfEgypt]

On the times I would actually tell my story to someone, it was like a slap in the face.  I realized how crazy it all was... .and it wasn't a movie, it was my real life.  It helped me see how far gone I was, how much of myself I had truly lost to the insanity.

[Alex86]

This is why I am here but really struggling to identify some areas/answers, maybe I have not accepted the fact that she is indeed like a 3 year old. But then when I told her i loved her on occasion, the reply I would get was "No, you don't" so guess that tells me all I need to know.

"No, you don't" was a usual argument for me and my ex. And the next one was: "if you loved me, you... .".

I also got to the point where I doubted myself constantly and didn't know how to answer questions like "why are you with me".

The answer "because I love you" was not right.

In the end, I was asking my mother how she was showing her love to my father in the first stages of their r/s in order to convince myself that I love her and show to her my love.

Crazy stuff indeed.