Can you ever create a decent relationship?

[Window]

So my big question is can you ever have a remotely healthy relationship with someone who is BPD? I don't mean an awesome relationship just one that doesn't completely drain you? Or is it best to just go "No Contact"?

I am 39, married, 3 great kids.

I have a mother and grandmother who are both BPD. I have been in counseling in the past and in the past I have limited my relationship with them. Fortunately, for many years I lived out of state due to my husbands job. So limiting the relationship was easy--I only had the means to see them twice a year. And since they are BPD it has never crossed their minds that they could come visit me

But I moved back to my home state a year ago. The pressure is on me to visit more--especially since they both want to see my kids. And my grandparents health is rapidly declining (they are 90 and still live independently but are having issues).  I have been visiting a lot more so that I can take them to doctors appointments and such.

My grandparents are in the twilight of their lives. I adore my grandfather who has been thoroughly beaten down by his wife and daughter over the years. Grandma though is manipulative, guilt inducing, passive aggressive, and just overly draining. Due to her age (maybe?) it seems as though her BPD has tapered off to just extreme Dependency and Anxiety.

My mom is a also classic BPD. Although she lives in the same town as my grandparents, she has no interest in helping them.

OK, I totally get my mom not wanting to help her BPD mother--I feel the same way! My grandmother is just outright mean to my mom. She is also EXTREMELY jealous of any attention that my grandfather or I give to my mom. Grandmother treats my mom like she is the devil incarnate.

And I had the typical childhood that most of use with BPD moms seem to have had. One thing that drew me to this board is that so many of your stories resonated with me.

Yesterday the whole family drama came to a boiling point.

Excuse the long back story.  A month ago, my family and I went to visit my mom and grandparents. My brother and his family were there also. I arranged for all of us to visit at the same time because I felt like this may be the last good year that my grandparents have.

While we were there my mom spent most of the time ostracizing herself--going off and eating at the kids table, not joining in conversations even when we tried to include her, refusing to play board games with us, etc, etc. I could just feel the anger and tension rolling off of her the whole visit. This is pretty typical behavior for her. She doesn't feel comfortable in my grandparents house yet she refuses to have us over at her house.

On the last day of the visit, we had an informal photo session in the front yard. We took lots of pics of the great-grandkids (there are 6 total ages 3mo to 10). And we grabbed my grandparents and had them pose with all the great grandkids.

Well in the midst of all the photo taking and corralling 6 young kids, we didn't think to get a pic of my mom with all her grandkids. Did she ask for one? No. Did she say anything? No.

Instead she waited until today to call me and chew me out about what a horrible daughter I was for not thinking to take a picture of her with her grandkids. She proceeded to talk about how no one in the family wants her around and we just all hold her responsible for all the mistakes she made in the past and we will never let her forget it. She went on for an hour just ranting about how the whole family treats her like ___.

I completely agree with her on one thing---that was really jerky of us not to think of getting a picture of her with the kids. She has a right to be upset about that. I apologized and I still feel bad. While I was on the phone with her, I just let her vent about everything without trying to justify or explain our thoughtlessness.

Why in the world did I sit on the phone with my mom for an HOUR listening to her gripe about what a bad family we are? I just kept thinking, if she were a mentally healthy person, she would have just ASKED us to take the picture. That's what my MIL does! But in her mind, we should be able to just KNOW her every want and need.

Sorry for the long build up. But all of this back story leads to this question, is there anyway to have a relationship with her that isn't toxic? While this particular incident is about my mom, my grandmother is equally as toxic.

Since we have moved back, I have invested a lot of time and energy into my relationship with my mother and my grandparents. I have driven the 6 hours one way to visit them 10 times in the past year. I have also been calling them both multiple times a week. The time and energy I spend on them takes away from my kids and husband. I feel like I am spread way to thin making these frequent trips to see them. Also, there is the financial aspect of the trips--it all adds up and we aren't poor but we aren't made of money either.

The phone call today brought to the surface something that has been simmering for a long time. I could slit my wrists and let my mom and my grandmother drink every last drop of my blood, but as I lay there dying both of them would complain that I hadn't done enough or that one of them got a sip more than the other. Nothing I do is ever enough or good enough.

There is a part of me that cares for them. But do I just care for them because I am still hoping that one day they can be the parent/grandparent I needed them to be when I was a kid? My husband would prefer that I just do what he calls "drive-by" family time--once or twice a year go see them and only call once a month or so. I know for sure that I would never, ever continue a relationship with anyone else that treated me like they do. I just feel so guilt ridden thinking of abandoning them all and them dying alone. But I also feel so completely drained by just thinking of them. And I also know that they are master manipulators who can make me feel guilty for just looking at them cross-eyed.

[Kwamina]

Hi Window

I read your introductory post, thanks for sharing more of your story here. I'm sorry you had such a difficult childhood and are still going through a lot of BPD drama with your mother and grandmother.

So my big question is can you ever have a remotely healthy relationship with someone who is BPD? I don't mean an awesome relationship just one that doesn't completely drain you? Or is it best to just go "No Contact"?

This is a very good question that many of us have asked and still continue to ask ourselves. Every situation is different and so is every person with BPD so I don't think we can say that there's one strategy or approach that fits all. What I can say is that we can change the dynamics of the relationships with our BPD loved ones by working on ourselves, regardless of how they act. One way of achieving this is through setting and enforcing boundaries. Boundaries can help you protect your own emotional and mental well being, this is of particular interest now that you've moved back to your home state. How do you feel about setting and enforcing boundaries with your mother and grandmother? Is this something you feel comfortable with? The following workshops might be helpful:

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

BOUNDARIES: Examples of boundaries

[littlebirdcline]

Wow.  With a few minor changes to details, I could have written this.  My mother is NC with her mother, and therefore my brother and I had to be as well.  The behaviors you describe in your mother sound exactly like something my mother would do, and a month ago, we had a giant blow out.  She is blaming it all on me, and I am in the midst of debating whether to go NC or not.  The problem is that it means cutting off my dad as well, because he won't "betray" her.  He, too, is beaten down, but I must admit that I am starting to get really pissed at him for not ever standing up for me as a kid.  I wonder if it's all worth it.  I had a very intense therapy session yesterday where I finally started to see just how much damage was done to me as a child, and it all came flooding back.  I think I have been hoping that someday she would finally understand my point of view and be the kind of mother I needed as a kid.  But I got an email from her today that made it really clear that is not ever going to happen.  The bad thing is we have been very codependent and close, talking every day, sometimes more, despite all the grief she caused me.  Now, I don't think we can ever have that closeness again, and I realize it wasn't really real anyway.  We talked about all the details of our lives, movies, books, etc... ., but I never really spoke to her honestly about my feelings.  She made me her emotional dumping ground my entire life and refused to deal with mine. 

Anyway, I'm sorry for rambling, and I don't have any suggestions.  I am early in the process and still trying to figure it out.  But just know that I completely identify and sympathize with what you're going through.  Take care.

[Window]

Now, I don't think we can ever have that closeness again, and I realize it wasn't really real anyway.  We talked about all the details of our lives, movies, books, etc... ., but I never really spoke to her honestly about my feelings.  She made me her emotional dumping ground my entire life and refused to deal with mine. 

LittleBird, You said it perfectly! What irritates me right now is that over the past few years she has started admitting that she was a "bad mother." But now she is using her admission as a weapon--she thinks that because she admits to being "bad" that it gives her a free pass to behave how she wants now and we should all feel sorry for her. And now she is playing the victim because we are still "holding it against her" and she can "never escape." Her victimization really marginalizes the crazy, scary childhood my brothers and I had.

Kwamina, I think my issue right now is that for 5+ years I had established really good boundaries. But with moving back and my grandparents declining health, I am having to redraw the boundary lines. Logically, I know that this situation is just a bump on the road to establishing a new set of boundaries. But as everyone here knows, it can be so easy to get sucked back in to their drama.

Fortunately, those 5+ years of good boundaries have given me a better perspective on my mother. I can actually now appreciate the good parts of her. Right now I am really struggling with learning how to keep myself safe and not get hurt by the toxic parts of her. And I keep getting sucked into my grandmother's guilt trips (she really knows how to push my sensitivity buttons). As a child, they both saw me as the peacemaker and protector (I protected them from each other). I am just not willing to accept that role anymore.

Life doesn't have to be a soap opera. But figuring out where I want the boundary to be is more complicated than I expected.

[Kwamina]

Hi again Window,

It's an unfortunate aspect of BPD that people with this disorder tend to blame others and assume the role of victim. Something that might help protect you against her guilt trips is to keep reminding yourself that her words and behaviors don't have to be a reflection of how things really are. When a person with BPD says you're to blame for the problems they have caused and/or accuses you of not letting them move on/escape, they are not taking any responsibility for their current and past actions. A free pass like you say. When your mother started to admit some of her wrongdoings, did you feel like she was being sincere? Or did it come across as manipulations to get that 'free pass'?

Fortunately, those 5+ years of good boundaries have given me a better perspective on my mother. I can actually now appreciate the good parts of her.

Most people with BPD aren't all bad so I'm glad you are also able to appreciate the good parts of your mother now, while still being fully aware of the not so good parts. I also see from your original post that you have some empathy for your mother's situation because you realize how mean your grandmother treats her.

Right now I am really struggling with learning how to keep myself safe and not get hurt by the toxic parts of her. And I keep getting sucked into my grandmother's guilt trips (she really knows how to push my sensitivity buttons). As a child, they both saw me as the peacemaker and protector (I protected them from each other). I am just not willing to accept that role anymore.

Life doesn't have to be a soap opera. But figuring out where I want the boundary to be is more complicated than I expected.

I think it's probably a bit like a process of trial and error. It's very hard to just figure out where you want the boundary to be. Sometimes you might think you got it all figured out only to realize that your boundaries aren't set just right to keep your BPD relatives at the proper distance. I guess you can say that we not only gotta learn to set and enforce our boundaries, but also to continually monitor and (re)evaluate them and if needed reconfigure them.

[sophthecoxswain]

Wow, all of your situations sound exactly like mine! God, my mom had BPD too and would act the EXACT same way if she were in that situation. I honestly think that those with BPD are much too toxic to maintain healthy relationships with others unless they actively try to get help and actively try not to be so manipulative and unpredictable. My mother, for example, either tricks people into thinking she is a victim and everyone hates her (as she did to my entire family for years--I finally realized recently and have caused a rift in the family, as they all see her as the victim and me as the problem.), or is recognized (only by me, at the moment) as the manipulative person she is. As a matter of fact, she moved away from her family in Connecticut who saw her for who she was and came to California, where she started again and has fooled all that she knows into believing her lies. As a result, she and I have an awful relationship, and my father, who she has also fooled, takes her side and tells me I have the problem.  I understand your situation and it is my opinion that those with BPD cannot maintain healthy relationships with others.

[littlebirdcline]

"... .and my father, who she has also fooled, takes her side and tells me I have the problem"


I have been thinking more and more about my father this week.  I find men who remain married to women like this for many years fascinating and sad.  My father is nowhere near the perfect husband, I'll be the first to admit, but he is verbally abused by my mother everyday of his life.  For 41 years.  He has never stood up to her, for himself, or for my brother and I.  The current rift between my mother and I has spilled over into my relationship with him, too.  She said he's not taking sides, but by not communicating with me and not seeing me if she doesn't, he is taking her side, as always.  I have always felt sorry for him, but this last time, he admitted to me she's nuts but that I need to just ignore her until she gets over it.  He's apparently angry that I won't do that anymore.  Now, I'm starting to get really angry at him, too, for not protecting us our entire lives.   I don't know if it would be easier if he really didn't see the truth or not.

[AnnieSurvivor]

Hi there,

I just wanted to chime in on the question.  My thought is, just based on my experience and what I have seen and learned through my in-person BPD family member support group - you can have a functional relationship, maybe even one that is okay at times (depending on how functional they are), but "decent" or "normal" - probably not.  One person in my group shared that their family therapist quickly channeled him into a more realistic expectation when he said he just wanted his BPD daughter and the family to be "happy."

My uBPD mother would be considered "high functioning" but unless I am willing to behave exactly as she expects 100 percent of the time, (which is impossible of course), there is no chance we are going to have a normal parent-child relationship.  Shoot, even if I did follow her lead, there would always be something to criticize.  However, I have found that by regulating my emotions which helps her regulate hers, validating most things she says that aren't really nuts, and not biting at a lot of the sniping comments, I can maintain a limited functional relationship.

Since the moment I left for college I have had the "drive-by" relationship your husband references and recommend it highly.  Drive-by is almost exactly what I do, calls monthly (mostly initiated by her) and visit once-twice a year.  I do live 1000 miles away.  I get to maintain my sanity for the most part, and live my life as I see fit.  It is not perfect, but much better than being entangled in the drama, FOG, etc. 

For the record, I am pretty sure my grandmother was also BPD, although she is deceased now.  The difference is my mom mostly worshipped her, and my grandmother's interests, ideas, hobbies, values, etc were almost completely adopted 100 percent as my mom's own.  Imagine their dismay and anger when I did not follow suit!  Good luck to you, I know it is a struggle.

[healinghome]

my grandma was BPD and my mother is uBPD.  my grand father was led a dogs life by grandma and conveniently worked away from home a lot     

sadly I haven't experienced any sort of a healthy relationship with uBPDm and I'm coming to reolize that it isn't possible, which involves some grieving.  this is because all healthy relationships are 50/50. we give and we get; attention, compassion, etc.  in my experience BPDs are unable to give unless there is a self serving agenda to it.  while I don't believe in 'verbal BPD bashing', I understand that if I want a happy, healthy life away from drama, suffering, manipulation and anger... .I had to let the relationships go and know that it wasn't my fault.  I didn't cause their BPD, can't cure it and if they are always so miserable and untrusting with me then it would be in both of our favours to walk away.  and something that we don't always see while in the throws of grief is that the hole that is left from the BPD's gets filled with your own life, friends and interests and then grows and becomes enjoyable. 

after several attempts at nc, uBPDm started saying that she 'knows she gets involved too much in other peoples lives and can be rebellious'  and I started to believe in hope for change.  but then saw no actions enforcing that change occur.  she was just saying it to bait me back in... .another manipulation.

I am a big believer in nc or minimal contact.  not out of wanting to cause them suffering, but because nothing I could do or say ever helped them... .I tried everything.  then defeated, I gave up and started to focus on my own life instead.  to my surprise it was much more enjoyable.

uBPDm isn't interested in me or a relationship with me other than to make her look like the ever loving/stable mother to others.  it is a mental/emotional illness that breaks the hearts of their children, but it isn't our fault or responsibility.

[HappyChappy]

As BPD are difficult at best, and horrendous at worst, I guess we need to decide is a relationship with a BPD worth the stress/danger? If so , then I guess we need to change our approach re all the suggestions on this website. E.g. boundaries and S.E.T. But always be aware of what a BPD is capable off. Always be aware the FOG that can creep over us before we know what's happened. Knowledge is power. Best of Luck.

[Ziggiddy]

Over and over I am struck by how many of us have this seemingly unextinguishable hope that we could have a reasonable r/ship with our disordered mothers. It seems the little kid inside us never wants to really give up hope. I think that's actually a fine thing. I also cynically feel more and more that the good times, the great times fan those hopes then the disorder rears its ugly head and we are left to feel all the pain over again.

Like some of the posters in this thread I have been enmeshed with my uBPDm and take so many steps to work at improvement or a least damage control. When my ma is great she's great. When she's not she's an amazement to me with how unreasonable she can be.

It might be worth trying to separate up the idea and the hope of the person with the disorder.

Lately I have been trying to think of my mum as just someone who is unwell. When I'm sick i am crabby, teary and petulant. I try and think were she well she'd be the great bits all the time. Alas it's just not possible in the here and now so I work on focussing on and encouraging the bits that I like (this takes a built up self esteem - I won't even attempt it when I'm low or i pain as she senses my defenselessness and works it depending on which emotion is colouring her that day.)

It's not ideal but it's helped me reach a more peaceful place.

in answer to your original post, Window, can we have a r/ship that doesn't drain us? It depends entirely on what we want out of it. If we can ignore and let go of the invalid, if we can draw out whenever possible the valid attractive parts. If we can keep on remembering that they are not well. If we can forgive mad ravings and unreasonable demands that the illness produces. If we get enough sleep and support and joy out of the rest of our lives. If we can forgive ourselves when they won't then it just may be!