I have Tuesday & Thursday access p/u & d/o at his daycare 9-5 with no overnight

[chefbruce]

This is familiar territory.  It's not familiar for me.  I'm 10 yr marriage / 2months deep into divorce/criminal process.

The nutshell extravangaza:

Married 10 years to very high functioning BPD wife with narcissitic traits (only child).  Extremely good with finances, no chemical dependancies or self harm.

Projection, I had issues with anger stemming from bullying when I was a child/teen.  I wasn't violent, but somewhat shorttempered.  Everything that ever went wrong was my fault, it was always my anger that was the problem, no matter if hers was a few multiples more intense.  Blame.  Control.  Love you in the morning, hate you, you disgust me at night.  Couldn't do anything up to her standards for love nor money, lord knows I tried.  Could never understand how to make her happy.  Always eggshells.  Always afraid of how she'd react.  Always hurting.

Threat of divorce was always a control card.  She knew very well how to control me.  We had a child together, who was another piece.  New threat... .Divorce, and leave the country with our child.  We opened a small business together... .New threat... .Shut the business down, divorce and leave the country with our child... .Everytime.

I have to think about things rationally before I make any serious moves.  As she'd been screening my cell, she read a text message where I was talking about divorce.  I'd had enough.  I was scared to death, but I'd had enough and was getting out.  She's been threatening it monthly for years, how dare I consider it... .oh,the betrayal.

She had me charged with assault with a weapon.  Because she kept spewing, two more charges were added from 'previous incidents.'  (That didn't happen.)  And, she's convinced a neighbour to testifyon her behalf.

I filed for a divorce immediately.  After a month, she gets a lawyer and files a 41 page affidavit in response.  All manners of allegations were thrown.  My divorce lawyer has been keeping it rational, and is looking at mediation.  (L is fearfull if it goes to trial, my situation will worsen.)  I'm thinking mediation is futile.  She's not going to get 100% of what she wants, then off to trial we go anyway.

After $20K to the divorce lawyer, I have Tuesday & Thursday access p/u & d/o at his daycare 9-5 with no overnights.


Two L's and $30K deep so far.  I feel so helpless.  I keep trying to find inconsistencies, discrepensies in her story.  She hacked my email and used an email in the affidavit.  I can't prove it as the actual recipient of the email didn't want to get involved and wasn't answering if he'd forwarded it to her or not.

I have a limit of $50K I can spend on this garbage.  After that, I'm financially broken.  As I have a court order in place preventing her from taking our son out of the country, she is willing to burn everything we have to the ground to make me suffer.

I don't have any proof of her lying.  I have nothing to clear myself.  I know we argued and that it was bad.  It got physical when she attacked me.  3 occasions of flying punches and kicks while I would defend myself, and of course it was my fault.   Our son never saw it ,thank god, as he was always sleeping when these happened.

I'm pretty terrified of what will happen with the criminal charges.  If I get burned, she'll of course use it against me, even if there's an agreement. Not to mention that both jobs I have will retroactively disappear.


I feel so Fff'd now.  How am I supposed to protect myself?  

[slimmiller]

Very sorry to hear all you have to suffer!

Two books that helped me immensley is "Splitting" and "Stop caretaking the Narcissist and the BPD"   It helps to understand your situation that you are in and also with strategies etc.

Shes unfortunately probably not going to make things any easier. Educating yourself and knowing the pathology of her malfunction is really important to help you going forward

One of the best things is to detach as best as you can. She is counting on keeping you in the FOG and fearful as much as possible because if you are terrified of her and feel threatend, she will be in control. She is running the show and is like a monster that will continue to terrify. As you move forward a bit and are able to focus a bit less on her threats they also tend to loose their effectivness.

I am at a point now with my exBPDw that she has almost no control in making me fearful. I took a while and strategical planning etc (we have three kids together). We are past what you are dealing with but its still hard. She does make threats but she has stopped making threats of legal action to get the kids full time etc.

[Matt]

Yeah, "Splitting" is excellent - well worth your time to read, and your lawyer should read it too.

The author, William A. Eddy, also has some good stuff on his web site, www.HighConflictInstitute.com.

(I haven't read the other book Slimmiller recommended - maybe I should... .)

A little background so you know where I'm coming from... .

Married 12 years to a woman who was later diagnosed with BPD.  Frequent accusations that I was cheating;  threats of divorce;  she got pregnant after telling me she was on birth control;  constant complaints and blaming.  Finally she got violent - physically attacked me twice, and then called 911 and said I "threw her down the stairs".  I was arrested and charged with assault and some smaller stuff;  if the officers had believed her story I could have been charged with attempted murder.

The charges were dropped and we settled, 20 months later, for 50/50 custody.  Now 6 years after the settlement, all my kids are doing much better and they spend most of their time with me.  A pretty OK outcome after a very bad experience - jail, separation, huge costs, etc.

[Matt]

I'm going to suggest a few things that helped me a lot - mostly suggestions I got from other members here.

First, separate the criminal accusations from the divorce in your mind, and make sure you are handling each of them correctly.

Serious criminal charges require a criminal defense attorney.  I know the last thing you want to hear right now is to hire another lawyer, but hear me out.  Mine cost $5,000 and it was the best money I ever spent.

Your family law (divorce) attorney is not qualified to handle the criminal charges.  He shouldn't even be doing that - it's unethical for him to handle things he isn't experienced with, and he should have told you that, and helped you find a good criminal defense attorney.

The first time you meet with your criminal defense attorney, you will get very important advice.  Listen carefully!  Mine told me, ":)o not be alone with your wife, without a non-family adult third party present all the time - not even for a minute."  The reason is that if you are alone, she can make more accusations, and she can say you tried to intimidate her into back off her accusations - big problems for you even if this is all 100% baloney.  In cases like this - where a man is accused of harming a woman - you are considered guilty til proven innocent.  You can't afford to put yourself in the position of being accused of more stuff on top of it - you'll be held without bond or a very high bond, and your divorce case will be badly prejudiced if that happens.

So suggestion #1 is:  Talk to as many criminal defense attorneys as you can, and hire the best one you can afford, and follow her recommendations to the letter.

Suggestion #2 is:  If anybody - your family law attorney, or any of the criminal defense attorneys you talk to, or anybody else - suggests that you take a plea agreement for the false criminal charges, turn your back and walk away from that person, and have nothing more to do with him or her.  Most criminal cases are resolved by plea agreements, and many defendants don't realize until it's too late how big a mistake that is (if you're not guilty).

Taking a plea agreement - no matter how small the penalty - even if you'll just have to take an anger management class or pay a small fine - is a huge mistake.  It's an admission of guilt, and it's a public record, and you can never take it back or appeal it - ever.  Your public record will show - forever! - that you admitted guilt.  And everybody who sees that will assume that what you did was worse than what the plea deal shows.

Lawyers love plea agreements because they end the case forever, so they can go sign up another client and take another retainer.  Going to trial is time-consuming and risky - they might lose.

Make it clear to your family law attorney, and to every criminal defense attorney you talk to, that you will not sign a plea agreement - period.  You will not admit to having broken a law you never broke, and you will not create a public record which anybody can see, and which brands you forever as a "wife-beater".

[Matt]

My suggestion #3 is, find out exactly what you are accused of, and work with your attorney to prepare a strong defense.  And a big part of that defense is likely to be depositions.

I filed a motion to depose my wife - she was questioned for four hours, under oath, by my attorney.  This is an excellent way to deal with lies, because she can be asked anything that is relevant, and any follow-up questions, so her story is captured in detail, in the public record (audio recording or a court reporter).

With this information, you can focus on finding evidence which proves she is lying, and you'll probably find plenty.  You can also note that she has no evidence to support her accusations.

If she is going to call any witnesses, you can depose them too, and they are very likely to break down and admit they did not see you commit the crime.

If your wife lies, you can gather evidence to prove that, and let her lawyer know that she will be called as a witness, at the criminal trial and at the divorce trial, and your lawyer will proved she lied under oath.  Her lawyer is ethically obligated to advise her client how to avoid criminal jeopardy, so her lawyer will have to tell her, "You better settle the divorce case and withdraw the criminal accusations or you could be found in contempt or worse."

My wife made more than 40 false statements under oath.  10 or 20 we could have easily proved were lies.  Her lawyer told her, "You better settle!" and she did.

By the way, you need to be prepared to be deposed yourself - I was - but not to worry.  My lawyer told me, just tell the truth and keep your answers short - if "Yes" or "No" or "I don't know" will do, say that and stop - and there will be nothing to worry about.  She was absolutely right - it wasn't hard and nothing bad came of it.

My fourth (or maybe first) recommendation is, make sure your family law (divorce) attorney is the right one for the job.  Find out if he has experience in cases like yours - he should have a number of "war stories" and lessons learned.  Even if he lost some, but learned from it, and now knows a lot about cases like this, he could be very good.  Compare his approach to the one in "Splitting" (what Slimmiller recommended) and see if he is using the right approach for your case.

Fifth, have absolutely no contact with your wife, except through your attorney - none.  Until the criminal charges are dropped - and even then - the risks are very high, and they're all on you.  She can threaten you and get away with it, but if she says you threatened her, you're in big trouble.  All communication should be through your lawyer and should pertain to the case, and your lawyer should work out the details of the schedule for your child.

And finally, when you have time with your child, leave all this aside, and focus on him only, and have really good quality time with him.  That will be good for both of you!

[livednlearned]

Two L's and $30K deep so far.  I feel so helpless.  I keep trying to find inconsistencies, discrepensies in her story.  She hacked my email and used an email in the affidavit.  I can't prove it as the actual recipient of the email didn't want to get involved and wasn't answering if he'd forwarded it to her or not.

I have a limit of $50K I can spend on this garbage.  After that, I'm financially broken.  As I have a court order in place preventing her from taking our son out of the country, she is willing to burn everything we have to the ground to make me suffer.

I think everyone feels helpless at first. We believed our BPD spouses, so we think everyone else will too. My N/BPDx husband is a high-functioning BPD with serious narcissist traits. He's also a former trial lawyer. I thought I was going to get eaten alive, but now I have full custody and he has zero visitation right now with our son. I owe a lot to his narcissism, which prevented him from seeing all the mistakes -- also, many cluster B types are very impulsive. That's not a good combination when the court is scrutinizing your behavior closely.

I agree with Matt that depositions are an excellent tool, especially if your ex is snowing everyone. My ex is so narcissistic that he waltzed into his deposition like it was a joke, and his attorney was sufficiently alarmed -- he realized N/BPDx was going to be a serious problem if things went to trial.

If you do get deposed, you have to check your thinking. You feel guilty about being short-tempered, and it shows. Court doesn't care about why you raised your voice that one time, or whether you were bullied, or if you are short-tempered. If you were ever asked, "Mr. Chefbruce, are you an angry person?" Your answer is, "No." Just because you have been angry in your life does not mean you are an angry person. YOU might think being angry means you're an angry person, especially if you've been married to someone saying that to you for 10 years. But in court, when someone asks you, the answer is no.

If the lawyer keeps pressing, which may not happen, but let's say it did, "Mr. Chefbruce, did you ever yell at your wife?" You answer, "I remember one time I yelled at her when she hit me."

Also, you can subpoena people -- like whoever forwarded the email. The one who isn't saying anything.

I'm a bit concerned about your lawyer... .someone who thinks mediation is going to work might not understand BPD or NPD too well. About the affadavit... is that like the counter complaint? If so, and you know half of it is BS, what is your lawyer's strategy to take apart all the lies? If it's mediation, and he has no strategy to dealing with this in court, then he's not your guy.

I've been in court more times than I can count, and I can tell you one thing -- you want a lawyer who knows how to try cases. There are some lawyers out there who don't have a clue how to do that. You want someone who has experience with this. If his plan is mediation, and he can't list his experience taking cases to trial, then reconsider. He might know that he's a dud in court and doesn't want to go there.

There's too much at stake to have a bad lawyer.

[Matt]

I'm a bit concerned about your lawyer... .someone who thinks mediation is going to work might not understand BPD or NPD too well. I've been in court more times than I can count, and I can tell you one thing -- you want a lawyer who knows how to try cases. There are some lawyers out there who don't have a clue how to question someone on the witness stand. You want someone who knows how to do this. If your lawyer doesn't have a lot of experience taking cases to trial, then reconsider. There's too much at stake.

I'm concerned about this too... .

Most divorces don't go to trial - they are settled out of court - way cheaper and less stress.

But when one party has BPD or something similar, that changes things.  Mediation is less likely to work, and they usually don't negotiate productively until they get scared.  So it's important to prepare for trial and know you will probably win;  that's when the other side will come to the table and a good settlement will be possible.

An attorney who is only experienced with "normal" divorces won't understand this.

[chefbruce]

Thanks so much for the posts and advice all.

I do own a copy of Splitting.  It's been sort of helpful.  I do wish so, that I'd been a lot more proactive about the 'prior to detonation strategy'.

Mediation was something that sort of came up with my lawyer and hers.  Found out today she's agreed to it, and they're looking for dates.

The Legal fees are tied in two lawyers.  Both were highly recommended.  The family lawyer is a straight shooter.  I'm playing the hurry up and wait game.  The defence lawyer is a heavy hitter.  (Hence the costs so early.)  I am waiting for trial as I've already pleaded not guilty.

FL is waiting until results of mediation before he disects her affidavit (counter attack) for trial.

Deposition sounds good.

I'm under a no contact order, so there's been none.  Everything goes through the lawyer.  Although, she puts my mail in my son's backpack.

So I'm being a good boy, not making things worse for myself, or trying not to, but obviously things are difficult.

You know, it's the strategies, I'm in the dark about.  I'll have to wait until the DL gets all the information on the other 2 assault charges, and we go from there.  I can't see mediation working.  stbxBPDw has wierd fleeting moments when she can see reason.  (Usually advised from educated others,)  Hopefully her lawyer is helping the situation by keeping her grounded.  I don't know though, when she's in her dark place, she's pitch.  It's dark, and it's evil.

I know that I document everything.  I don't react.  If she contacts me, (she emailed me once... .subject:Take an anger managment course--with nothing else in it.) I just send it to the FL.  I don't reply, I'm legally bound to not reply.

She has though, been smearing me with any/everyone she can.  I don't retaliate, or contact the person she smeared me with. 

There's no contact though, I will never talk to her without someone in legal standing being present.  I can't afford to, the last time we were alone, where it was so quiet you could've heard crickets, I wound up being hauled off to jail, so no.  No contact suits me just fine.  Not that she would want it.  I know she feels 100% justified in slinging all the crap she is.

In the end, I fight for my son.  My time with him is his time.  We have a wonderful time together, and so far still have the amazing relationship we've always had.  He gets the best me, I think.

[Matt]

So let me suggest a strategy, for now - basically the one I used at this point (except I'm going to leave out some of the dumb mistakes I made)... .

For now, focus on two things:  the criminal charges and your kids.

Regarding the kids, get a set schedule worked out by the lawyers - make sure it is documented and submitted to the court - a temporary schedule - and make the most of that.  Get the most time you can, and make sure it's quality time, and focus on strengthening your relationships with the kids.  That doesn't mean all fun time - be a good parent - help them with homework, listen to them, look for ways to help and support them, and fun time to.

Regarding the criminal charges, make sure you have a good criminal defense attorney, and make sure she has a very well-thought-out plan to get you acquitted.

Go slow on the divorce.  Minimize the amount you have to pay your family law attorney.  Tell him and the other side, "I have to get these criminal charges dismissed first."  Make it clear that if your wife continues to work against you on the criminal charges, you will show she is lying, and that will hurt her in the divorce case.

To be clear:  It's not a question of either/or - a criminal defense attorney or a family law attorney.  You need both.  But you can focus on the criminal case first, til it's taken care of - mine took about two months but it could be longer for you - and then when that is taken care of, you shift your attention and your money to the divorce case.

Make sure you and your criminal defense attorney are in synch on how you are going to address these charges:  You're going to prove beyond any doubt that your wife is lying, and if there are some things that can't be proved false, you're going to absolutely 100% deny them, and highlight that there is no evidence at all against you.  Somebody making an accusation isn't evidence - it's just an accusation.  Emphasize again and again that there is no evidence supporting her accusations, and bring forward any evidence you can that shows she is lying.

Challenge your criminal defense attorney to provide you with a good, solid plan to get the charges dropped, or an acquittal.  A good attorney without a good plan is a loser:  ask him to tell you the steps he will take, and ask for examples of cases he has handled successfully, and what can be learned from those (and maybe lessons from cases he lost too).

Your own focus and stress are big issues.  If you can set the divorce process aside for a few months, so you can get the criminal charges dealt with first, that might help you not go crazy trying to deal with too much all at once.  (Plus the cost... .)

[livednlearned]

So your FL is thinking mediation will help with what... .? To dissect the affidavit?  I'd want that strategy spelled out crystal clear. Mediation can be expensive. Mine took all day, and was a lawyer at $300/hour plus the mediator at $225/hour. What is going to happen in mediation? Why not say no to mediation, but then do a deposition where it's considered sworn testimony?

Mediation can be really weird because mediators and lawyers have this thing where they pride themselves on settling. It sounds like your L is not going to lead you down that path. But it's good to be aware of -- and it's not a bad thing. Going before a judge sucks. Being in trial talking about intimate details about the biggest train wreck of your life is awful. But mediation is hard with disordered people. The only reason mediation worked for me is because my ex is a lawyer and very narcissistic. I think he was performing for his L, making himself out to be reasonable. So he agreed to everything except one thing, and then obstructed and delayed everything he agreed to. It's been a sea of motions for contempt ever since. 

A question for your FL: are you going to be in the same room with her during mediation? In some cases, mediation takes place in separate rooms, which has pros and cons.

Another question for your FL is how to delay things like Matt suggested. It seems there are a million and one ways to delay and obstruct things from moving forward in court, so there is hopefully something there that can work for you.

Regarding the kids, get a set schedule worked out by the lawyers - make sure it is documented and submitted to the court - a temporary schedule - and make the most of that.  Get the most time you can, and make sure it's quality time

Temporary schedules do kinda become permanent schedules, so do your best to get what you think is possible under the circumstances. What is your FL's strategy about getting overnights with your son? What's your bottom line -- and how did you get the schedule you have now?

[Matt]

Yeah, LnL makes a good point about mediation - what's the objective?

How do you mediate between "He assaulted her with a weapon." and "He didn't assault her with a weapon."?

There may be a time to compromise but not while the issue is so big and important.

Do you have a copy of the police report - where I live they call it an "incident report"?  It took me several weeks to get that, but when I did, it was easy to get the charges dropped, because the officers had put good information in the report.  For example, my wife told one officer one story, and the other officer a different story, so it proved she had lied to one of them.  Also, it said my kids (then 8 and 10) told the officers a few things which backed up my account but not my wife's account - they didn't see what happened but they saw some other things.  So the officers' report very clearly said, "Mrs. Matt lied."

No telling what is in the police report in your case but the sooner you find out the better.

[maxen]

We believed our BPD spouses, so we think everyone else will too.

that's just gold.

must repeat it to myself like a mantra.

[Matt]

We believed our BPD spouses, so we think everyone else will too.

that's just gold.

must repeat it to myself like a mantra.

It's hard to know what somebody will believe.  In the legal process, I think the professionals involved - judges and attorneys on both sides - usually withhold judgment.  They don't believe or not-believe anything except when there is solid evidence.

(I even got that vibe from my own attorney at times - if I said "Mrs. Matt did X!" her reaction was muted, like she wasn't persuaded just by what I said.  Which I found annoying, but probably wise... .)

Focus on evidence - when you have it, call attention to it, and when there is no evidence, point out that the other party's accusations aren't backed up by anything.

[maxen]

It's hard to know what somebody will believe.

 

i tend to catastrophize so it's important for me to be reminded that others may not believe a thing just because they hear it

(I even got that vibe from my own attorney at times - if I said "Mrs. Matt did X!" her reaction was muted, like she wasn't persuaded just by what I said.  Which I found annoying, but probably wise... .)

ayup, i've had the same reaction [angry smilie]

[projectBmode]

I'd highly recommend looking into meditation. Try calm.com (there's another one but the name escapes me). Pick up the book 8 minute meditation. It's really helped me keep my cool. 20 minutes a day for the first few months, then you can get down to 10.

My closest friends have watched me deal with accusations they actually laugh at they're so ridiculous (given what they know about me). I feel like I'm constantly on edge, but as outsiders they've told me I'm light years ahead of where they'd be if they were in my shoes.

[livednlearned]

I'd highly recommend looking into meditation. Try calm.com (there's another one but the name escapes me). Pick up the book 8 minute meditation. It's really helped me keep my cool. 20 minutes a day for the first few months, then you can get down to 10.

This is great advice. I always heard people talking about mindfulness but couldn't figure out what the big deal was, until I desperately needed it.    When you're so stressed you feel like you can't breathe anymore, this really does work, especially if you keep it up.