deep end of the pool and non dad

[Harri]

Talking to myself again!  So, this is a memory that I have had on my mind quite frequently lately.  It is not new, but I have never really explored it before.

I have this hazy memory of being at a pool party with my dad.  I think it was at a co-worker or bosses house but I really am not sure on that.  There were lots of people there and I was pretty young.  I could swim, but I was not yet allowed to go in the deep end.  It was me and my dad, my mother had not gone with us and I do not remember if my brother was there or not.

I remember walking in the pool, heading toward the deep end and somehow I was able to keep on walking in the water.  My feet were still on the bottom of the pool, and I kept walking (I know that is not possible, but it is clear in my memory)  I remember feeling happy and that I was being greeted by friends.

Next, I am lying on the cement around the pool surrounded by people and one kid is asking me if I was okay as I was choking and spitting up water.  I do not remember seeing my dad, but I know he was a few feet away from me and crying.  (You know when you just know things?)

The next thing I remember is lying in the backseat of the car on the way home, curled up and feeling numb.  

I do not specifically remember my dad saying this but I *know* my dad said "let's not tell mom about this".  

*****************

Whether this actually happened as I remember or not is not really the issue here.  It will serve nicely as a way to explore my dads role and his failure as a parent very nicely.  

All I can think is that I came darn close to dying when I was a kid and someone, definitely not my father, rescued me.  I have not had many rescuers in my life, but almost never did my father ever step in and defend or protect me.

My dad sat on the sidelines while someone else rescued me and he cried helplessly.  My dad crying was a common occurrence.

He carelessly left me alone, numb and confused during the drive home again, a common theme with him

He wanted me to keep his secret from my mother because he was afraid or maybe even feeling guilty Guilt I can understand but to be afraid of her?  That just proves that he knew she was all sorts of fruit loops when I was very little (One time when I was an adult, he came to me seeking comfort and admitted that he knew she was crazy... .so this just confirms that, but that is a whole different thread   )

There was an ever present air of ____  gah!  what is the word?  Laziness?  Cluelessness?  Helplessness?  Evil?  Non?  I don't know.  He was just Dad.  A spineless, hopeless, clueless, pathetic little man who cared, but he cared more if things would cause him discomfort or upset peace rather than be a real parent.

He used to work very very long hours when I was a kid to avoid having to come home to the raging shrew that he married.  But it was perfectly acceptable to leave his two kids alone with her.  He would sit there and let her rage at and humiliate me, tearing me down, belittling me, mocking me.  When I tried to speak up he would be waving in the background and motioning me to shut up.  When I did speak out, he would stand up for my mother and tell me ":)on't you talk to your mother like that Harri".

His inattention, his neglect, his instinct for self-preservation combined and nearly left me dead in a very real sense of the word.  Symbolically, he combined forces with my mother and together they nearly killed me spiritually.

I think back on everything that happened to me, those memories shaping who I am and how I think to this very day.  This one here is not even close to being the worst memory of my dads inability to be a father, but it is the one that is in the forefront of my mind lately.  

I honestly do not know how any of us survived.  I read posts from concerned non parents trying to help their kids and I am so very grateful and happy they are trying.  I just hope they realize that so many of us did not survive intact enough to be posting on this board.

I keep wondering when this stuff will stop hurting me and release the hold I still allow it to have on me, even with both parents dead.  I don't think it is possible to reach a point of no pain for most of the stuff that happened.  I do not think that is a reasonable expectation given the degree and length of the abuse.  I do hope though, that I will be able to let the emotions and memories rise up so I can acknowledge them and sit with them for a bit and honor the little girl and teenager and young adult who managed to surpass mere survival.  

I am still using my experiences and feelings as a cloak of victimhood though.  I thought I was done with that a while ago.  

Oh well.  A layer at a time Harri.  It is all you can do really.  Awareness comes in its own way and time.

[Progress Not Perfection]

Thanks for sharing, Harri! I too struggle with forgiving the adults who I feel allowed my BPD mom to subject me to what she did. I had a random thought this morning -- "there is no benign neglect" ... I don't know why this crossed my mind but it seems like it fits for your situation too. While it can feel like nonBPD parents aren't the "bad" parent because they are quiet and passive, it is very painful to feel that lack of protection. It's very invalidating -- like saying "this isn't so bad".

It sounds like in some ways my situation was different from yours, for me it was emotional incest, not so much physical abuse but very inappropriate roles/responsibilities/touches/etc from my BPD mom. I recently was able to talk about it with my non-BPD, very healthy and growth-oriented Dad who divorced her many years ago. I struggle because I feel like by leaving her, he left me alone with a monster in some ways. And I also feel lucky that he left and got healthy so now I at least have one parent who I can process the abuse with, and who can handle it when I say "I feel angry with you". He didn't used to be so healthy (physically or emotionally) and I'm grateful he is now. And honestly you have made me reflect and remember that even when he was around he didn't stop my mom's behavior. He recently apologized for that and for that I am VERY grateful.

I'm sorry to read that your parents have passed, as I'm sure it adds to the feeling of not being able to resolve this. I hope that through working with a therapist or journaling or talking to yourself (love that idea! ) you find some peace in your own life, and that you know that you deserved protection and being put first from BOTH of your parents.

[Harri]

Hi there PNP, thanks for joining me, though I must warn you that I am all over the place on this one. 

"there is no benign neglect"  Wow.  That short phrase sure does pack a lot into it huh?  I think that is a fabulous thread all on its own! 

I too am glad that your father was able to get better and can now support you.  More importantly it seems like he is willing to listen and take responsibility for his poor life choices back then.  Did you find it hurt even more to have him apologize though?  I ask because while my father never apologized, he did acknowledge that he knew she had 'problems' and that something was wrong with her, but he did not know what to do about it.  It hurt like hell to hear that.  To know that he knew and ignored it all.  I had spent so much time longing for validation from him that once I got it, I was pretty devastated.  It was a rude awakening rather than the healing experience I had hoped for.  Perhaps it was because of the context though (he called me looking for comfort and wanted to talk about his pain and his frustration and I just could not do it.  I basically told him he was on his own, that he had to deal with the consequences of his poor choices and craptacular behaviors).  I fell into a deep dark place for a couple of weeks after that conversation with him.  It still hurts years later.

No matter *why*, we were abandoned.  It all sucks.  I get so angry when I read of people who know their SO/spouse is crazy and rages and all and they still choose to bring kids into the world. 

REading your post gave me another important reminder.  It is so easy to focus on the obviously crazy behaviors and yet it is the more subtle but oh so toxic covert behaviors like emotional incest that you mentioned, the parental alienation and mind games that were a part of daily life that I believe cause the most damage (or at least they did for me).  Reality was twisted and distorted to suit whatever paranoid fantasy she had and we had to try to keep up with the on the whim changes.  I can still remember the confusion and the fear, how foggy I was and how I could not quite understand what just happened... .that feeling of Huh?  and the fear.  The air was so thick with it all.  I dreaded walking in the house after school.  I used to hate summer just because there was never an escape and yet when I was in school I longed to be home so I could keep and eye on things and make sure things were okay... .and maybe, just maybe I would be able to figure things out.

There are so many many people who had to know what was going on in our house... .maybe not specifics but enough to know that something was very very wrong.  One of the neighbors sometimes came over and would knock on the door to visit.  I realized later that it would happen when the yelling and screaming were at its worst and that she was doing what she could to give us a breather.  My mom could pull herself together quite well and very quickly.  Haha, now that I think about it, it was quite brave of Mrs. L to do that.  It was temporary but at least it gave us a breather.  Oh how I wished Mrs. L or anyone would just come over... .things were okay when we had company. 

This is going to sound crazy but I too am sad both my parents have passed.  I do not miss them in the least, but things have become so hazy in the years since they passed that I really am having a hard time dealing with the issues that are left over.  I am not currently in therapy but I have been in the past.  I really see no point in it at this time.  I stopped going back when I sat there saying "okay, I understand it was messed up and really bad, I get how it has damaged me, but NOW what do I do with that info?"  You can only talk about things in therapy so much, ya know?  Eventually you just have to get up and *do* even if it is to simply have a rambling conversation with yourself... .and it is always pleasant to have a friend drop in!  Thank you, PnP!

[Turkish]

No matter *why*, we were abandoned.  It all sucks.  I get so angry when I read of people who know their SO/spouse is crazy and rages and all and they still choose to bring kids into the world. 

I guess that would be me. I had S4 with her a year earlier than I wanted to (I bought into the FOG "you want to be young enough to be able to play with him, right?". Then I chose D2, even though I thought emotionally it would be tough for her to handle a second child, based upon the experience with S4. I knew she would leave me and have a second kid with someone else if I didn't, so it was FOG (which takes two to play), and my fear of loss.

Sometimes I think the best thing she did was leave. I stood up for me and our kids, which is one factor that prompted her abandonment.

You have a right to be angry, Harri. I don't know if it's irony, or what, but I also feel like you do, towards both people with obvious mental issues, and also the enabling partners. Yet we don't know what we don't know. If we grew up steeped in dysfunction, abnormal is the world we live in. It takes a tough person to detach from that and step outside into the healthy world.

[Harri]

Hi Turkish, thanks for joining the convo.

I hear you on this:

I don't know if it's irony, or what, but I also feel like you do, towards both people with obvious mental issues, and also the enabling partners. Yet we don't know what we don't know. If we grew up steeped in dysfunction, abnormal is the world we live in. It takes a tough person to detach from that and step outside into the healthy world.

Yes, I agree that we don't know what we don't know.  I also agree that it is tough to detach from the abnormal world.  I get all that *and* I believe it... .usually.  Until I think of stuff I grew up with and the fact that my father admitted he knew she had issues (understatement) and that things were wrong for a very very long time.  I am not going to bash anyone for the mistakes they made when in a crazy crazy situation.  I have done things that are horrifying to look back on and I too allowed things that no one should ever allow.  How could I not, given what I was taught and what I knew.  I still get angry though. 

If I had to pick the biggest 'regret' I have and the one thing I grieve the most about when I think of my past is that I am not often shocked at the capacity man has to do evil things.  I lost the innocence of not knowing just how evil we can be to our own kind.  I hear of horrific abuse and I am not surprised.  I am saddened, horrified and sickened but not surprised.  Some things *are* beyond my comprehension and I am grateful for that because in a twisted way it means that I was not quite as damaged as the person who did this incomprehensible act, or perhaps it means that I was damaged in another way.   Whatever.  But there are far far too many times where I am not shocked at all and very little phases me anymore.  There are far too many times when I have to sit back and sigh in relief and gratitude because if just one or two things were a bit different, that train wreck of a human being could have been me. 

Having said all that, I still think we are the lucky ones Turk.  We got out more or less intact and what is broken can be worked on and changed. 

Sometimes I think the best thing she did was leave. I stood up for me and our kids, which is one factor that prompted her abandonment.

I imagine that must have hurt like hell and I am sorry for the hurt.  Like you though, I think it is the best thing that could have happened to you and your kids.  It takes courage to stand up and fight for yourself and you did it.  It takes even more courage to continue the fight by recognizing our own failings and to take responsibility for fixing them.  I have nothing but respect for you and what you are doing here Turk.  As angry as I may feel at the enablers and Non's I would never tear them down.  I understand all too well.

Take care

[littlebirdcline]

There was an ever present air of ____  gah!  what is the word?  Laziness?  Cluelessness?  Helplessness?  Evil?  Non?  I don't know.  He was just Dad.  A spineless, hopeless, clueless, pathetic little man who cared, but he cared more if things would cause him discomfort or upset peace rather than be a real parent.

He used to work very very long hours when I was a kid to avoid having to come home to the raging shrew that he married.  But it was perfectly acceptable to leave his two kids alone with her.  He would sit there and let her rage at and humiliate me, tearing me down, belittling me, mocking me.  When I tried to speak up he would be waving in the background and motioning me to shut up.  When I did speak out, he would stand up for my mother and tell me ":)on't you talk to your mother like that Harri".

His inattention, his neglect, his instinct for self-preservation combined and nearly left me dead in a very real sense of the word.  Symbolically, he combined forces with my mother and together they nearly killed me spiritually.

I think back on everything that happened to me, those memories shaping who I am and how I think to this very day.  This one here is not even close to being the worst memory of my dads inability to be a father, but it is the one that is in the forefront of my mind lately. 

I have been having a lot of similar thoughts lately.  My dad also worked a lot and was fairly uninvolved.  He had his moments of engagement, but when it came to her, he let her have her way in all things.  As a child, her BPD manifested mainly with me as emotional incest, and her constant need to make sure we loved her more than him.  She belittled him and talked badly about him to us all the time.  (Which of course we did not tell him.)  She has always talked to him horribly and treated him like crap.  Her rages and irrational behavior are much worse now that we are adults.  He never has told her to stop, and says he is "staying out of it and not taking sides." He knows she is mentally ill, but will not confront her and wants me to just let it go. 

It's interesting, because he was physically abusive to us as kids, and I found a way to forgive him.  He has changed his own personality and behavior, and until recently, I had gotten over the issues I had with him.  He came from an abusive home, and did the best he could in his interactions with us, and I'm also fairly certain he has mild PTSD from Vietnam.  But as I understand more about BPD, I find myself getting angry at him all over again for always letting her run roughshod over us and him.  In retrospect, I think his mother may have been BPD, so maybe to him it's all normal.  It's taken me years to realize my mother's behavior isn't okay, so maybe he is clueless.  But I really don't think so. 

Maybe he didn't understand when we were kids, but he does now.  I guess it's childish to still want your dad to stand up for you at my age, especially when he has never done it.  But I still find myself hurt because neither he nor my brother will take my side and tell her the truth.  Intellectually, I know he and my brother have the right to make their own choices and maintain whatever relationship they have her however they want.  My brother has validated my feelings as far as how I deal with her for myself, but thinks it would be useless to try to force her into therapy and likely harmful to her if she went.  I guess I just want her to know that I'm not the only who thinks she needs help, but what's the point of that, really?  She would just think they're making it up, too, and that we were all ganging up on her.

It's so hard to let go of wanting to control other people's opinions and behavior, even when you know you can only control your own.  I was proud of myself this week, though.  He came to visit for one night and pick up a tool my husband and I had borrowed from him.  He left her at home, and I was worried about how it would go.  He never mentioned her, and neither did I.  We had a nice time without her, which may be the best I can hope for at this point. 

Thanks for sharing.  Good luck as you work through your issues as well.

[Gone2Long]

Firstly, Harri, bless those who rescued you from the pool that day so you could grow up to be the person you are - in spite of all that you had to go through!  I'm very sorry that you are struggling with these memories and those who might have provided some answers are gone.  It's like being left behind to clean up some one else's mess... .except, I would think, with emotional wounds we never know when that particular task will be finished.

 

Thanks for sharing, Harri! I too struggle with forgiving the adults who I feel allowed my BPD mom to subject me to what she did. I had a random thought this morning -- "there is no benign neglect" ... I don't know why this crossed my mind but it seems like it fits for your situation too. While it can feel like nonBPD parents aren't the "bad" parent because they are quiet and passive, it is very painful to feel that lack of protection. It's very invalidating -- like saying "this isn't so bad".





I have to agree with this... .and honestly, I never questioned my father's lack of being there when I was growing up or even later on in years.  Only recently have I realized that he was practicing self-preservation... .and it was at my expense.  I'm amazed to hear stories of those whose father's worked long hours... .to get away from their BPD partners?  Yes, I now believe that was true of my own dad.  He worked long hours, 7 days a week sometimes, and I was brought up to be proud of that.  Later on it dawned on me that Dad worked because he found it was peaceful there... .and on the road visiting clients.  He tried to stick up for me, was attacked (you TWO are ALWAYS against ME!... .I can hear it now), and retreated.  He was a strong man in so many ways but when it came to her he was defenseless and weak. 

I'm very glad that some of your fathers have reached a point they acknowledge that they handled things poorly while you were growing up.  I never got to have that conversation with my father and I will admit it's been difficult examining this aspect of growing up with a BPD (dad being an enabler of sorts), both on my own and here on this site.  It is, I can see, a necessary thing, though.

[Harri]

Hi littlebirdcline and progressnotperfect! 

Littlebird, I do not think it is childish at all to still want your parent to stick up for you when someone is treating you poorly or abusing you.  That is what parents are supposed to do right?  I don't know about you, but I still have this kid in me that is hurting and believes she is somehow responsible for causing the abuse and was supposed to fix it all too.  That kid is growing up a bit now though.  Haha, when I thought of her before she was so young and little, maybe 5 or 6.  More frequently now what comes to mind is an adolescent full of fury and angst.     So while I am happy the kid in me is growing up, this teenager in me is quite a handful and I keep thinking good grief, I can't wait for her to get out of the house!  Haha.  At the same time, like you, I can acknowledge he had the right as an adult to make his own choices.  It helped me to detach and deal with my feelings when I was older, but it still hurt like hell (still does too, to be honest).  And I still have lots of work to do in that area.

As a child, her BPD manifested mainly with me as emotional incest, and her constant need to make sure we loved her more than him.  She belittled him and talked badly about him to us all the time.  (Which of course we did not tell him.)  She has always talked to him horribly and treated him like crap.  Her rages and irrational behavior are much worse now that we are adults.

My mother did the same thing!  I only just realized she was doing the Parental Alienation thing, so thank you for that.  I used to think that only counted when there was divorce, but I understand now that divorce is not a requirement for PA.  It helps me to understand this haziness and fog that surrounds my dad in my mind.  He had his own issues for sure and they are what caused him to mostly sit there and take her crap while my brother and I were there to watch and hear it all.  Hell, he hooked up with my mom because of these very issues.  She was awful... .and my brother and I believed it all.  How could we not when we were raised hearing it and saw him just sitting there either doing nothing or crying like a baby about it all.  (<--- and that right there lets me know I never did cut all the way through the PA or my anger for his own dysfunction when he was alive otherwise I would be a bit more compassionate, right?  Ah hell... .and then I think of his selfishness and abuse and his overall passivity except when it was something he wanted for himself, and I think why on earth should I have compassion for him?  He left me with the witch!  He used me as a freaking shield?  Arrrrgh!)  And then I just tell myself "It is what it is" and sit with the feelings.  I am not sure resolution and peace is always possible or even healthy.  There are just some things that are soo wrong on so many levels.  It is hard to unwind my emotions and thoughts about it all.

I am impressed that you were able to come to the point of forgiveness for the physical abuse, though I am so very sorry you had to experience and deal with that on top of everything else.

It's so hard to let go of wanting to control other people's opinions and behavior, even when you know you can only control your own.  I was proud of myself this week, though.  He came to visit for one night and pick up a tool my husband and I had borrowed from him.  He left her at home, and I was worried about how it would go.  He never mentioned her, and neither did I.  We had a nice time without her, which may be the best I can hope for at this point.

That *is* something to be proud of and I am happy you had a chance to spend pleasant time with him away from your mother.  I got to see glimpses of my dad apart from my mother too, but I think it was too late and for too little time.  It was such a messed up time anyway with so many other big things to focus on that I feel I missed an opportunity to do some realtime emotional work and healing which leads me right to what G2L said:

It's like being left behind to clean up some one else's mess... .except, I would think, with emotional wounds we never know when that particular task will be finished.

  What excellent words that perfectly express my struggle dealing with memories of my dad.  I resent (such a telling word there) having to clean up his poor choices in life.  Not all the time, but resentment is still very much alive in me.  I can think my way through it but all that does is serve as a vehicle to stuff my feelings down even more only so they can build and fester.  I do not want to carry the poison of resentment anymore and I get stuck because I feel like to truly be rid of it, I *need* to be able to tell him directly.  I did do that once in a very direct unemotional way after he called me looking for comfort.  It helped a lot but it was not enough.  There was/is still too much left unsaid.  Then more built on top of it as I moved in with him after my mom died and found myself in the position of taking care of him.  It was a fine juggling act trying to be gentle cuz he was old and frail and wanting to beat him over the head with the pain and anger I had towards him.  I did not always succeed.  I crossed the line between speaking up about the past and spilled over into verbal abuse.  I learned well from my mom and I too was/am a master at spewing venom.  I hate that I have the capacity to cut someone down... .and not just the capacity but the willingness to do so.  And I can do it so very well.  I have a slow fuse and it takes a lot for me to blow up but when I do, there is no to little warning.  I have worked on that quite a bit but I think it will always be something I need to be aware of and cautious about.

Again, the thing I grieve the most about my childhood and growing up the way I did is the loss of innocence of self:  seeing my parents and what they did and seeing some of those very things in me.  Sometimes self acceptance is a daily occurrence for me.

I never got to have that conversation with my father and I will admit it's been difficult examining this aspect of growing up with a BPD (dad being an enabler of sorts), both on my own and here on this site.  It is, I can see, a necessary thing, though.

G2L, I agree it is necessary.  I also agree that I was fortunate that my father did acknowledge how messed up things were.  The thing is though, I had thought for a long time that if only someone in the family would validate my experiences it would give relief and healing.  In reality, no such thing happened for me.  I am grateful but in a way, I feel even more hurt and betrayed.  I only mention that to you in case you are like me where I had this idealized vision of validation, as if it would make me better or make my healing process easier.  It did not work out that way for me.  Regardless, this is a tough road and while I am sorry for the circumstance that bought you here, I am thankful to have someone to talk with and share this work.

I have been toying with the idea of writing a letter to my dad and then maybe burning it... .invite a friend over and have wine and toast marshmallows over the flames... .  Care to join me G2L and littlebird?

Thanks so much for helping me with this.  I appreciate it more than I can say.   

[Gone2Long]

The idea of having a "burning party", complete with wine and toasted marshmallows sounds great!  As I am in South Central Ontario, I may only be there in spirit for you but I support the symbolism.  Perhaps you can write a few letters to him, each one addressing a specific feeling... .anger, sadness, loneliness, shame, etc.  I say this because as you indicated, there is so MUCH to say.  I know I sometimes have these little chats in my head with my deceased father (and living mother), as a way of dealing with the confusion.  It usually comes out as a question to them... .naturally, I have to answer it myself (or try to) but it's the only way to attempt a beginning of understanding and getting out the emotion in the form of words. 

Have you considered trying to compartmentalize certain areas, experiences (like the one you shared with the pool incident) and feelings into separate letters to your parents?  I know me as a person, if I try to get out too much at once it becomes very jumbled, with no beginning or end and the original thought gets lost.  Then again, I am prone to being very verbose... .

Just an idea to help... .I think your concept of letter burning is a good start in the healing process!

[Harri]

G2L, I like your suggestion of different letters for each emotion.  It will make the writing more manageable and will have the added benefit of forcing me to focus on just one emotion at a time.  I tend to go off on tangents if you haven't noticed!

Thank you!  I was feeling a bit overwhelmed and wondering where to start.  Now I have a direction.   

[Harri]

Turkish, my response to you in this thread has been bothering me off and on for several days.  Actually, thinking back, I felt something was wrong with the way I responded to you from the time I posted it, but I could not figure out why so I shelved it... .but it has been nagging at the way back area of my brain so I took a closer look.  It took me several days but I was able to figure out why it was bothering me so much.

I realize now, from my reply to you in this thread, knowing the tone that was present in my head when I wrote what I did, that I have been very angry with Nons.  I know I already said I was angry and I know I said I understood and would never condemn them or tear them down... .but I have been doing those very things in my own mind and heart.  I realized that I have classified being Non as being disordered, like being a non is in itself a personality disorder just like BPD and NPD and all the others.  As a matter of fact, I was sort of ranking being Non as a bit more disordered than BPD.  I forgot that non is a term that simply means the person without BPD, not a person without issues of their own.

Obviously, it is all related to my feelings about my father.   There is still so much that I know is waiting to come out.  My efforts at suppressing it made it come out sideways and was directed towards all nons, even myself.  I understand it, I can discuss it, and I can put it into a workable framework but my rational mind does nothing in terms of dealing with it all at an emotional level.

I have no idea if you sensed any of this from my response to you.  In retrospect, I steam rolled over your response to me in an effort to keep things buried.  I put up a great show that I understood, and yes, I do understand on some levels, but I obviously have a lot more work to do on this.  In my efforts to keep stuff buried and stay in denial, I tried to shut you out.

I am sorry for that.  It was wrong and I apologize.