Toxic Shame

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Ok. It 's almost a month of NC with my ex (except in a couple of instances that I didn't respond). There are days that I am feeling slightly better like yesterday for example. As if there is light and hope etc. I come here and write something nice and can accept more what happened and look to the future with optimism. And then there are days like today that I feel an immense amount of toxic shame and anxiety to a point where it overwhelms me and I am unable to even work or concentrate on anything. It's just decapitating. I feel like I have 3rd degree burns all over my body.

When I am in that mode I can be nasty with others - like a badly wounded animal with heightened senses. With every slight or even a hint of violation of my boundaries e.g. someone making a comment about me, a joke etc. I get angry and sometimes I can snap or passive aggress. It is as if someone is touching my 3rd degree burns. Which causes me even more shame and down the spiral we go. I feel so raw in days like this as if I have no skin - a bit like a borderline. I don't know what to do when that happens. Thinking makes it worse. Blanking out and not thinking makes feel even worse as I should be ok and getting on with my life and work so further guilt. It can be crazy vicious circle! Some days like today are just impossible to endure. When does this torture end?

[freedom33]

Ok. It 's almost a month of NC with my ex (except in a couple of instances that I didn't respond). There are days that I am feeling slightly better like yesterday for example. As if there is light and hope etc. I come here and write something nice and can accept more what happened and look to the future with optimism. And then there are days like today that I feel an immense amount of toxic shame and anxiety to a point where it overwhelms me and I am unable to even work or concentrate on anything. It's just decapitating. I feel like I have 3rd degree burns all over my body.

When I am in that mode I can be nasty with others - like a badly wounded animal with heightened senses. With every slight or even a hint of violation of my boundaries e.g. someone making a comment about me, a joke etc. I get angry and sometimes I can snap or passive aggress. It is as if someone is touching my 3rd degree burns. Which causes me even more shame and down the spiral we go. I feel so raw in days like this as if I have no skin - a bit like a borderline. I don't know what to do when that happens. Thinking makes it worse. Blanking out and not thinking makes feel even worse as I should be ok and getting on with my life and work so further guilt. It can be crazy vicious circle! Some days like today are just impossible to endure. When does this torture end?

[Confused?]

I was a lot like that during my relationship. I was so controlled that I barely saw anyone else but her. Any time I did get the chance to see friends I was on edge. They would joke about me never being around or ask questions and it pissed me off. Same with my family. I would snap in a second. It was very unhealthy. Now I am more calm about everything. Told most friends the story of my relationship. Joking doesn't bother me because it's what friends do. In the end I lost myself which I'm slowly gaining back but at least I have all my friends and family still. It really helps to talk to them about stuff to release some inner hurt.

[SpringInMyStep]

Can you identify what the shame is about? I know for me, I do feel some level of shame for allowing myself to get sucked into her world... .to believe all that nonsense in the first place and get involved with her. I do feel that still... .a little bit.

But we have to keep going... .we have to realize that people like them are very dynamic and needy and that drawing people into their world to "serve them" is their expertise.

All we did was to fall in love with someone we thought loved us back. They did not love us; they needed us. Remember that.

[Elpis]

I'm so very much that same way.

I can identify my shame starting at a young age since several of my earliest memories are very shame filled.

From what I've read and heard, shame is when we feel we as a person are just Bad. Not what we did was less than perfect and something we'd like to change in the future (that's guilt rather than shame.) It's the feeling of being essentially and at our core Bad. That's why it stalls us out so hard.

If you've been in a situation or relationship where the other person made you question your very personhood so that it seemed it was you as a person under attack rather than someone saying "hey, this behavior of yours is hurtful to me" you can come out of that with a whole load of shame.

So unpleasant, so takes us off at the knees. i'm with you on that "burn" analogy!

[Hawk Ridge]

It's been the worst 5 months of my life.  After the emotional abuse preceding the abrupt break up, I became a fossil, filled with lack of understanding and shame yet... .I still miss her. I know she is with someone else, has been for 3+ months but I find myself still hoping she'll come back after realizing what she lost.  I have moments and sometimes even hours strung together at a time where I actually am grateful for this and then others where my shame guides me into just wanting another chance to prove I am not what she made me feel like, what I chose to let her make me feel.  It is so helpful to be able to share it here with others that understand this web we unwittingly entered but have learned so much from.  The upside: the lessons I have learned from being dropped to my knees in prayer and from therapy.  We're going to make it through this... .together.   Thank you all!

[freedom33]

I think the toxic shame is relating to being bad to the core as you say Elpis. When someone you trust, love and have consciously showed vulnerability to starts shaming you and blaming you for everything, inevitably that leaves you with a massive betrayal trauma. I let her into my core to see the inner child and she took a knive and stabbed it to death and I let her do it for longer than I should have so that's double betrayal. Her betraying me and I betraying myself which is even worse.

PS Thanks for sharing Hawk Ridge - We are going to make it allright.

[Loveofhislife]

Freedom33; I have been pondering the word "shame" that I continue to see pop up on these boards. I told my T that I don't feel a sense of shame (as I understand it) but I go back and forth between denial, depression, and bargaining; hoping that I'm moving toward acceptance. I accept that I'm not a victim; I accept that I CHOSE to stay in a relationship that I knew was unhealthy; my reasons for staying were ridiculous (boredom, loneliness, sexual attraction, fun, etc.) Nothing worth killing myself over. And YES! They go for our inner child; I wrote the other day that in that way, they are like child predators. He never could control the mind of my adult, and I believe that frustrated him greatly and likely lead to his discard of me: called me a stubborn, hard head whereas his exw was "dumb and numb": I was neither. What I was/am was a vulnerable person. This, I believe, was his main attraction to me. They want to make us NEED them; I never succumbed except needing his companionship. And I truly loved him. I'm sorry you're hurting right now; so am I. It's been a rough 24 hours after 6 weeks of ST.

[Loveofhislife]

All we did was to fall in love with someone we thought loved us back. They did not love us; they needed us. Remember that.

Thank you, Strawberries! This needs to be my mantra--everytime all the what ifs and whys and buts come up. My best guy friend today said, "He is a user. He is silent because he doesn't want to pay you your money back." He too is correct. He simplified what I continue to complicate because it is unthinkable that someone who constantly said he couldn't live without me, just dumped me on my ___ with no explanation.

[Rise]

... .I should be ok and getting on with my life and work... .

There is no time table on healing. We all do it in our own time. Some things in our lives just take longer to get over than others. You've got to give yourself the opportunity to heal. You may rationally think you should be getting over stuff more quickly, but emotions aren't rational.

You went through something horribly traumatic. What you're feeling is completely normal. There's nothing wrong with being emotionally raw after something like this. Give yourself some time. You can already see things getting better. In time, the shame you're feeling will fade away too.

From what I've read and heard, shame is when we feel we as a person are just Bad. Not what we did was less than perfect and something we'd like to change in the future (that's guilt rather than shame.)

I was always taught that difference between guilt and shame is the focus of the emotions. Guilt is focused on your connection to others, shame is focused on how you feel about yourself (although the two often go hand in hand, and guilt can clearly lead to shame). Shame is a tough one to fix. With guilt, we can receive forgiveness from others. With shame we've got to forgive ourselves, which is much, much more difficult. It seems like you've taken a lot of really big steps lately Freedom. This may be your next big step to take: Forgiving yourself.

[seeking balance]

Shame & guilt are part of the human condition - it is how we deal with them, what we "buy" into, that determines how long we may suffer.

It hurts deeply to have our greatest vulnerability used against us later - the shame button "I am not enough" gets pressed and we start to believe it.

It can be crazy vicious circle! Some days like today are just impossible to endure. When does this torture end?

Changing our own patterns of thinking requires discipline and effort - we didn't randomly find ourselves in these relationships; we found these relationships because it is familiar.  FOO issues, whether big or small, shape how we see ourselves.  Everyone wants to be seen and heard, told they matter.  If we did not get what we needed to feed that in our core as a child (no blame or judgment, simply a fact) that hole is there.  A pwBPD makes us feel complete - it is in that, we let down our walls, trust - only to find ourselves in a world we seemed to create, but no longer looks like what we thought we were getting.

You are ending the torture now, by digging deep and asking the hard questions.  What is it you needed emotionally, right now?  Give that to yourself.  Letting yourself grieve the hurt, it is very real - much like a 3rd degree burn you describe.  If you had scabs from the burn, would you tell yourself "a little hot water shouldn't hurt?"

Take the should out of your vocabulary - be in the "right here, right now"

Talk to yourself and give yourself the kindness and compassion needed to heal.  It is little things - eating healthy, exercising, crying, getting a massage, prayer and meditation, learning something new - the little things that are compassionate for your own soul that lets you heal.

You are worth it - you are not alone - and you really will be ok. 

Discipline of self is really what people who love themselves do - it honestly is the little things.

Peace,

SB

[Junknown]

I understand what you talk about to a certain extent. Now, when i feel like im being manipulated, my personal radar sets off and i get hyperreactive to it. And get angry inside, but im able to hold on tough.

This happened to me in the Emergency area (im a young doctor) when a patient tried to manipulate me. I got really annoyed and angry inside of me and the temperature inside was scaling, luckily a partner who was with me, managed to get rid of her before i somehow exploded. But this lasted a few minutes where i told my partner that i was feeling really angry because of the manipulation she was trying to inflict upon me.

Im also very unconfortable when someone touches the relationship or something related, unless i want to talk about it and open myself. I feel like they are touching my wound without my agreement and get defensive and try to bail out of that conversation. I dont get agressive tough. Just evasive and annoyed.

I guess after what we were exposed we get some scars and wounds that are still open. But with time i think everything will be fine. During this month, at least, i felt a lot of improvement and im getting really calm and really enjoying normal life apart from the drama i had before... .

To a certain extent, getting this hyperreactivity maybe will be good. These are like defenses we lacked on our contact with the borderline. She used and abused of us with our own consentment. Now we are in control. And we are not so tolerant with this crap anymore.

[SpringInMyStep]

Loveofhislife: YES! I think a mantra is a good thing! The reason that it's hard for us to disengage is that we hang on to the little snippets of affection they give us and somehow are able to block out the rest. I think the key to getting our lives back is to recognize all that they do and how it makes absolutely no sense. One minute they say they love you and the next minute, they paint you as the most evil person in the whole world. We cannot gloss over that part. We need to listen carefully to ALL the things they say and do. All of it.

[Blimblam]

I too felt that horrendous feeling. The more I fought it the worst it became. I felt guilt and shame for experiencing it and people around me added coals to the fire.  I eventually accepted defeat and then the healing process began. It is one of those you can run but your can't hide scenerios. I recommend focusing on the somatic sensations of it in a comfortable relaxed place. It will not be blissful. It will feel unpleasant and uncomfortable accepting this feeling is key. feel it somatically.

[SpringInMyStep]

Yes! And Blimblam, this made me think of something else too. What we are going through is not something other people understand unless they have experienced the same thing. This board is so great because everyone on here has had a relationship with a BPD person and we all can sympathize. It's good to talk to people who know and don't judge. 

[Chasing_Ghosts]

Im dealing with alot of toxic shame lately regarding our sexual intimacy. I feel like a pervert. Shes at the level emotionally of a little girl and i gave her my virginity. She didnt deserve that because she couldnt even handle taking care of and nurturing the gift of this intimate bond. Children shouldnt be expected to. I thought of her while taking care of my needs tonite. I cried afterwards. It used to be soothing and familiar with her being my first... now it just feels so wrong. Stating that just made me more sick to my stomach. The shame is making me feel inherently the worst i have in a while. Im having trouble sorting this one out in my head...

[Blimblam]

Yes! And Blimblam, this made me think of something else too. What we are going through is not something other people understand unless they have experienced the same thing. This board is so great because everyone on here has had a relationship with a BPD person and we all can sympathize. It's good to talk to people who know and don't judge. 

I agree completely. I also want to add that there are plenty of people that have interactions with a borderline that do not get hurt as badly. We can think of this in terms of they had bou defies I didn't which I believe adds more guilt and shame. I frame it as we opened our hearts enough to give compassion to a lost soul deserving of compassion. Ironically that lost soul is the universal soul.  There is something profound in this sacrifice that only someone selfless enough to had done so can understand.

Many people told me "well you just can't let anyone affect you so much". These people guard their hearts and for good reason. On the flip side it is the opening of ones heart in this way that opens the doors to the darkness to find the light within. The more i read about healthy love compared to companionship the more I realize it was the endless infinite love we were seeking. Their is no shame in that but to know this love one must know the darkness the profound suffering of the mother soul. It is a spiritual journey at it's core and to relagate it to boundaries or simplistic worldly justifications is to deny the very essence of the divine, in my opinion.

[Loveofhislife]

... .we opened our hearts enough to give compassion to a lost soul deserving of compassion. Ironically that lost soul is the universal soul... .These people guard their hearts and for good reason. On the flip side it is the opening of ones heart in this way that opens the doors to the darkness to find the light within. The more i read about healthy love compared to companionship the more I realize it was the endless infinite love we were seeking. Their is no shame in that but to know this love one must know the darkness the profound suffering of the mother soul. It is a spiritual journey at it's core and to relagate it to boundaries or simplistic worldly justifications is to deny the very essence of the divine, in my opinion.

Blimblam--I'm going to have to ponder this. I am a very spiritual person and know for certain that my choices about damaging myself with pwpd's has been due to an injury from a long time ago. That core injury did not cause me to be unkind or uncaring to others. In fact, I have over compensated: over cared and rescued and loved to my own detriment. I knowingly put myself in harms way many times for those I have loved and even those who I felt were in need of love. I know that I opened my heart and my life to my exbfBPD--and I felt like together (and yes, with God) great things were happening. But once again, he threw happiness away with both hands and is punishing me for his failures. He had his exw included on his indictments knowing she was guilty of no crime. It's just very hard for me to conceive that he was "evil" and I (like all the others) were used and thrown out when he believed we had nothing left to give. I'm intrigued by your thoughts... .

[Blimblam]

... .we opened our hearts enough to give compassion to a lost soul deserving of compassion. Ironically that lost soul is the universal soul... .These people guard their hearts and for good reason. On the flip side it is the opening of ones heart in this way that opens the doors to the darkness to find the light within. The more i read about healthy love compared to companionship the more I realize it was the endless infinite love we were seeking. Their is no shame in that but to know this love one must know the darkness the profound suffering of the mother soul. It is a spiritual journey at it's core and to relagate it to boundaries or simplistic worldly justifications is to deny the very essence of the divine, in my opinion.

Blimblam--I'm going to have to ponder this. I am a very spiritual person and know for certain that my choices about damaging myself with pwpd's has been due to an injury from a long time ago. That core injury did not cause me to be unkind or uncaring to others. In fact, I have over compensated: over cared and rescued and loved to my own detriment. I knowingly put myself in harms way many times for those I have loved and even those who I felt were in need of love. I know that I opened my heart and my life to my exbfBPD--and I felt like together (and yes, with God) great things were happening. But once again, he threw happiness away with both hands and is punishing me for his failures. He had his exw included on his indictments knowing she was guilty of no crime. It's just very hard for me to conceive that he was "evil" and I (like all the others) were used and thrown out when he believed we had nothing left to give. I'm intrigued by your thoughts... .

To know love is to suffer any mother knows this.  The labor of love the labor of birth.  Born into a material world where life must feed on life to continue it's material existance. Thus death is life and life is death in an endless cycle of suffering.  But the material is an illusion it would not exist without an observer.  Thus conciousness is the only thing that exists. Consciousness is one and eternal. In order for conciousness to continues to exist in the material it must devour itself to exist in another material form. Shape shifting. It is but a deception. The material shape that contains conciousness changes shape. The form through which conciousness experiences itself. Loki the shapeshifting trickster god of fire father of hel.  Lucy = light. Loki, Lucy, lucifer.  Lucifer the decended angel into the darkness. Lucifer lord of darkness lord of fear. Fire the physical manifestation of light which is destructive.  All is one all is light all is concious.  The light within the darkness the from the source. Satan the great deciever. Shifting the shape which concious light experiences it's eternal self through the construct of the material through the illusion of time and space. The light within shrouded in darkness underneath shame fear and guilt. One must know the darkness to find the light within. The decent into the darkness is suffering to bring love into this world is to suffer. The decent into darkness is one of the redemption to find the light of endless unconditional love hidden from plain sight shrouded in fear.  The illusion of seperateness. The ego identifies itself as seperate from everything else and seeks to identified as who one is. When the ego decends into the darkness it experiences pain and suffering. It is felt somatically. When the somatic experience is processed and experienced the fear and pain dissipates. This is the journey to the light within.  When one knows fear one knows illusion and finds unconditional love.  One must suffer to know ones self.

[Blimblam]

The way out is in.  The way in is out.

Journey inwards.