Nominal existence

[Perfidy]

So as it turns out, only about a certai low percentage of humans will ever realize the true nature of reality in this lifetime. Tell me how you feel about this.

[Blimblam]

I agree and even within this certain aspects will be revealed to folks in a variety of manors.  Even if ine could read all the great scriptures and wisdom of the world and intellectually understood that doesn't mean they know.  To believe something and to know is a fundemental difference.  The funny thing is it is not even necesary to read any great work or sophisticated books. The great fundemental truths of the universe have been encoded into fairy tales. 

[Ihope2]

This is a very interesting point to ponder.  I do think that most people are asleep to a deeper spirituality.  We live a secular, materialistic, capitalistic, westernised existance because that is just what has become the norm in our global village.  We have lost all sense of wonder.  There is no "numinosity" any more, nothing seems to be sacred.  There is no sense of belonging, no sense of sharedness, no community any more.  There are no rituals, no rites of passage to help us move the story of our lives along, transitioning from childhood to young adulthood, to maturity, to old age with grace and positivity.

Wisdom is no longer nurtured and cherished. 

We go by the creed of "You only have one life, so live it... ." which seems to mean that you must be selfish and try to gain as much material stuff and status as you can for yourself, because one day you will be dead, and that will have been it.  Ego drives us to want more and more of the material things. 


Is this earthly life all that there is?  "All sound and fury, but signifying nothing"?

[Blimblam]

This is a very interesting point to ponder.  I do think that most people are asleep to a deeper spirituality.  We live a secular, materialistic, capitalistic, westernised existance because that is just what has become the norm in our global village.  We have lost all sense of wonder.  There is no "numinosity" any more, nothing seems to be sacred.  There is no sense of belonging, no sense of sharedness, no community any more.  There are no rituals, no rites of passage to help us move the story of our lives along, transitioning from childhood to young adulthood, to maturity, to old age with grace and positivity.

Wisdom is no longer nurtured and cherished. 

We go by the creed of "You only have one life, so live it... ." which seems to mean that you must be selfish and try to gain as much material stuff and status as you can for yourself, because one day you will be dead, and that will have been it.  Ego drives us to want more and more of the material things. 


Is this earthly life all that there is?  "All sound and fury, but signifying nothing"?

Rituals are everywhere.  People are praying always.  Everything is a ritual every act. Different socioeconomic groups have different rites of passage and coming of age rituals. There are many levels of awakening as well states of  disalusionment. Things are paradoxical though.  Those that seek holiness find shackles. 

We are like icebergs floating in the ocean and only the tip is above the surface. In the moment exists that which is above and that which is below. We have spent so much of our lives above water in concious awareness of the material plane.  To sink below into the depths that exist in the ever present moment one may loose touch with concious awareness of the material.  This may be necesary to ballance the scales. Becoming aware of the traumas held in the body.  Finding comfort in the discomfort. No search for meaning no grandeur. Just letting all the inner crap we run from be experienced. It's rather unpleasant really for now at least.

[Perfidy]

So many different views and approaches to good psychology. At the end of the day we become our own philosophers and psychologists. Sadly, humankind have it in their nature to reject knowledge and embrace ignorance. Socrates, Plato, Christ and a list as long as eternity have been condemned to death because of their teaching. Then we enshrine them. How does this make sense? These three men that I just mentioned are the basis of the majority of modern western philosophy.

[Blimblam]

So many different views and approaches to good psychology. At the end of the day we become our own philosophers and psychologists. Sadly, humankind have it in their nature to reject knowledge and embrace ignorance. Socrates, Plato, Christ and a list as long as eternity have been condemned to death because of their teaching. Then we enshrine them. How does this make sense? These three men that I just mentioned are the basis of the majority of modern western philosophy.

The the paradox the cosmic joke.  When it's right in front of someone's face it is unacceptable but when the tv tells it's it's good well then now it's acceptable. Because to accept one does not have to confront themself in the same way. It has become part if the status quo engraved into the shackles that bind. 

[waverider]

As long as I am happy in my reality and its not adversely affecting anyone else's, then its all good

[Perfidy]

Waverider, that is precisely what is being inferred in this topic. Moving beyond my version of reality and experiencing reality in its true nature without ignorance. The proprietor of the mind and body is eternal and infinite in nature, desiring to shed mortal trappings and expand boundlessly to the infinity of the universe.

[Blimblam]

I'm going to have to disagree. The pursuit of happiness or simply doing what makes one happy narrows the scope of existance to one that is very narrow in the grand scope of things. I can see the use of a notion like karma as a means of justification for why one shouldn't have to concern themselves with the rest if the scope. It still does not Adress the inherent flaw. That knowledge is power that power corrupts and that corruption persists because of ignorance. If one need not concern themself with these things they simply outsource their pain and pass on the hot potato. Or the ignore the huge like of crap in the middle if the room by covering it with a towel and convincing themselves it doesn't stink.  

Paradoxically when seeks personal empowerment it is at the cost of ignorance to another part of themself that they then project outside into the world as if it is someone else's problem and or repress themselves from acknowledging.

Life feeds in life to continue it's material existance. All life is concious. So conciousness must consume other conciousness in order to continue it's existance in the material plane if reality that we experience. This in itself is an accumulation of power. As evidenced by the higher up we go in the food chain an animal is the higher it's accumulation of mercury in the organism. The eagle does not concern itself with plight of the fish it consumes. Is this what we should aspire to to avoid suffering?  Is this not the process of the mind of a psychopath?  


Therefore is it not the flaw lay  within the experience of conciousness within the material plae of reality it's self.

The material plane being the oppressor of conciousness.

[waverider]

The total reality of everything is bigger than our capacity handle it. The pursuit of that over which we have no influence spreads our capacity too thinly so that we do not fully cope with what is within our influence.

You can trip over your own shoelaces whilst staring out the window wondering about what lies beyond the horizon.

To contemplate the totality of everything and its place in the world you need to devoid yourself of the distractions of your everyday existence. eg live in a remote monastery

Relationships cannot function on total objectivity and dissociation, they need priority, and with that comes tainted bias and prioritizing.

Are rituals not simply following someone elses version of what should be done, for often a forgotten reason. Rituals themselves are often instigated to stiffle the pursuit of individuals searching for their realities.

[waverider]

Totally agree that the pursuit of material assets and status is a distraction to true understanding of priorities.

The way that your profession is attached to your name as a definition as to who you are irks me eg "This is John and accountant from Boston" when being introduced to someone, when in fact your profession has nothing to do with why you are there

[vortex of confusion]

The pursuit of happiness or simply doing what makes one happy narrows the scope of existance to one that is very narrow in the grand scope of things.

It depends on how one defines the pursuit of happiness.

For Artistotle, the pursuit of happiness is the ultimate goal but he says that in order to achieve happiness one must exercise virtue and find the golden mean between excess and deficiency.

According to St. Thomas Aquinas, "Man’s ultimate happiness consists in the contemplation of truth, for this operation is specific to man and is shared with no other animals. Also it is not directed to any other end since the contemplation of truth is sought for its own sake. In addition, in this operation man is united to higher beings (substances) since this is the only human operation that is carried out both by God and by the separate substances (angels). (Summa Contra Gentiles, book 3, chapter 37)" [taken from www.pursuit-of-happiness.org/history-of-happiness/thomas-aquinas/]

Those are just two examples of how happiness can be defined. If you want a hedonistic definition of happiness, then that will focus on nothing but pleasure.

Really, pondering our existence is sometimes too overwhelming to some people. In the grand scheme of things, we are all pretty much insignificant. We are but specks of sand on a beach. That isn't a negative thing though. To me, it makes like even more awe inspiring. The fact that I exist among all of these other amazing things that were created by nature is absolutely amazing.

[Blimblam]

Agree with both of you.  The thing is the role of conciousness as a human a tree a cat a cow is one of bondage one of ignorance. Humans ability to have self awareness to contemplate such things seperates us from the rest of concious beings except perhaps dolphins.  Though we have the ability to create and construct systems within the system with awareness it is system of our own creation. Through our contact with these beings angels demons djin "gods" archetypes schemas whatever we want to call them, we conciously and unconsciously act out their influence in a sort of grand play. Giving us the ability to Chanel them.  In that sence they too are tied to the realm of the material.  The immortals the archons.  Our ignorance is their power.  Yet even these are filters through which we percieve reality.  But what is it behind these layers that is there through these filters which experiences itself?

Are not these filters but a perversion of the true essence?

[vortex of confusion]

Agree with both of you.  The thing is the role of conciousness as a human a tree a cat a cow is one of bondage one of ignorance. Humans ability to have self awareness to contemplate such things seperates us from the rest of concious beings except perhaps dolphins.  Though we have the ability to create and construct systems within the system with awareness it is system of our own creation. Through our contact with these beings angels demons djin "gods" archetypes schemas whatever we want to call them, we conciously and unconsciously act out their influence in a sort of grand play. Giving us the ability to Chanel them.  In that sence they too are tied to the realm of the material.  The immortals the archons.  Our ignorance is their power.  Yet even these are filters through which we percieve reality.  But what is it behind these layers that is there through these filters which experiences itself?

Are not these filters but a perversion of the true essence?

Hmm. . .so many thoughts about this.

I disagree. I do not think that the role of consciousness is one of bondage and ignorance. In my opinion, I think consciousness should help one free him/herself from bondage and ignorance. I think people fail to realize that consciousness can lead to self awareness which can then lead to knowledge. I don't think there is any way for one to experience the world without some kind of filter. Everything that one experiences during a lifetime contributes to the filters that are used to view the world. I think it is possible for a person to significantly change those filters by exercising consciousness and self awareness.

Is it possible to separate the material from the immaterial? In my opinion, everything is connected to everything which is in turn connected to each and every individual.

I do agree that choosing to remain ignorant is essentially giving away ones power. So many people go through life failing to question things. One of my strengths (which might be a weakness to others) is that I question everything. I do not remain content to simply exist. I do not remain content in my ignorance. Yes,  a lot of people are more than happy to hand over their power to some other force. Really, I think the source of a lot of disorders and problems are a result of people feeling powerless over themselves and everything around them. They have filtered the world through a lens that says, "I am ignorant and I am powerless."

Depending on one's spiritual leanings, there is only one true essence and that essence is a divine being. The nature of a divine being is that it is omniscient, omnipresent, and incorruptible. So, by definition, if one is not a divine being then it is going to be some kind of perversion of that true essence. Aren't we all made up of a little bit of that true essence?

It could be said that our sole purpose in life is to figure out, get to know. learn, become one with the true essence. If that is the case then it would seem to make sense that the filters would be some kind of perversion of the true essence.

[Perfidy]

One thing that rings out in all philosophy, and we hear it on this site frequently is that we are not our feelings, not our emotions. We are the master of our mind, not the other way around. So, here's the kicker. Who are we.

[waverider]

Filters both protect us, and prevent complete unbiased awareness. Human beings have a capability for awareness and curiosity to seek further awareness, but this can take us beyond our capabilities to cope.

Hence to be aware of our limitations and be content with what we need to deal with is enough for me. The universe and everything is full of endless mysteries, I am aware and accept this, but have no desire to spend more than my leisure time pondering them, I have enough on my plate at the moment.

The important thing about filters, feelings and emotions is to be aware they exist and work with them, not remove them or deny them. This the path to mastering our own mind. The mind is a powerful tool, the more knowledge we have of its stimuli and triggers the better we can keep it on a healthy path.

We are an entity not an assembly of competing components (well thats the ideal).

[Perfidy]

Asking the question "who am I?", seems to be the final product of taking personal inventory. At the same time it is the beginning of transcendence. Transcending the existence that put us in the positions of suffering that led us here. Not to suppress pain and suffering but to live so that they can't exist. The end and the beginning for the short term and the long term. To have an existence that is more than nominal.

[Blimblam]

What I mean is conciousness can not help but be percieved through the filter of the mind and the physical organism which contains it. I agree that the essence of the divine exists in all living things. Yet conciousness itself percieved it's self through the structures of the material world. That includes our own mind.

I think the idea that there is something wrong with the disordered but not "nons" is incorrect a part of the social construct towards conformity and manufactured diversity.

So if one is aware that there are entities at play working through our unconcious mind manifest through us material beings therefore tied to material existance.  So material existance is the point that ties together these entities.  One ring to rule them all. The ring of power. Life feeds in life in an endless cycle of eternity.  Think lord of the rings. The ouroboros the ring of power.

[Blimblam]

I want to note that image I provided has encoded within it the mystery of the universe.

[vortex of confusion]

Asking the question "who am I?", seems to be the final product of taking personal inventory. At the same time it is the beginning of transcendence. Transcending the existence that put us in the positions of suffering that led us here. Not to suppress pain and suffering but to live so that they can't exist. The end and the beginning for the short term and the long term. To have an existence that is more than nominal.

Is it even possible for one to live so that pain and suffering can't exist? And, there is a difference between physical pain and emotional pain. In my experience, there are times when pain is a necessary learning tool. For example, if one did not feel pain when touching fire, one would continue to put his/her hand in the fire and that would lead to some serious skin damage. I am trying to think of a case where emotional pain might lead to learning and growth. I think there is a difference between pain and suffering that is long lasting and pain and suffering that is more fleeting.

Ah, I thought of an example. The pain that is caused by living with somebody with BPD or other disorders has led to a lot of personal growth on my part. Would I have asked for the pain if given a choice? Absolutely not. I would love to have been able to learn the things that I have learned without dealing with the pain. The problem is the fact that if there had not been any pain, I probably wouldn't have had any kind of motivation to learn those things and I don't think I would have been as self aware. I would have probably become a bit complacent. People that are relatively happy and content usually have no reason to do any kind of self reflection. Why become aware when what you are doing is working for you? Ignorance is bliss!

[vortex of confusion]

I think the idea that there is something wrong with the disordered but not "nons" is incorrect a part of the social construct towards conformity and manufactured diversity.

I completely agree with this. It isn't wrong as much as it is they have a different way of relating to the world and interacting with it. If one can figure out how another relates to the world, then it is much easier to relate to them. I think a lot of the dysregulation that occurs is a result of the world expecting them to behave like everyone else. To go a bit on a bit of a tangent, aren't people programmed to think and behave certain ways from a very early age? If one were to look at the history of compulsory schooling, there is nothing there that indicates that schools are there to teach kids to be unique individuals. It is all about training them to fit into society, get a job, and be a contributing member of the social construct. They are not to question the social constructs but merely try to figure out how to fit in. If a kid does not conform, isn't it pretty routine for him/her to be diagnosed, medicated, and remediated until he/she can conform to certain expectations? Those that don't learn to conform are usually given a permanent label that follows them for the rest of their lives. Could it be said that those with a disorder never learned to conform because they have a totally different lens that they use to view the world? Rather than seeing it as a disorder, it could be simplified and referred to as having a different lens.

[Blimblam]

I think the idea that there is something wrong with the disordered but not "nons" is incorrect a part of the social construct towards conformity and manufactured diversity.

I completely agree with this. It isn't wrong as much as it is they have a different way of relating to the world and interacting with it. If one can figure out how another relates to the world, then it is much easier to relate to them. I think a lot of the dysregulation that occurs is a result of the world expecting them to behave like everyone else. To go a bit on a bit of a tangent, aren't people programmed to think and behave certain ways from a very early age? If one were to look at the history of compulsory schooling, there is nothing there that indicates that schools are there to teach kids to be unique individuals. It is all about training them to fit into society, get a job, and be a contributing member of the social construct. They are not to question the social constructs but merely try to figure out how to fit in. If a kid does not conform, isn't it pretty routine for him/her to be diagnosed, medicated, and remediated until he/she can conform to certain expectations? Those that don't learn to conform are usually given a permanent label that follows them for the rest of their lives. Could it be said that those with a disorder never learned to conform because they have a totally different lens that they use to view the world? Rather than seeing it as a disorder, it could be simplified and referred to as having a different lens.

I think 20th century philosopher Michel Foucault wrote a book about this titled

Madness and Civilization: A History of Insanity in the Age of Reason

That book gives a history from the 17th century to the 19th century of the cultural shift in power and perception of dealing with people that didn't fit into the societal norm.

Specifically for the borderline it has been corruption of the mind by events outside their control at a young age though there is a genetic predisposition.  This predisposition in an individual when not triggered probably results in artists and rescuers.  

The documentary series century of the self by Adam Curtis documents historically how the 20th century has figured out a way to distract these individuals.

It is sort of a conspiracy in that It is big business. The game of power itself is at the core of corruption.

Upon reflection of the work of Michel Foucault and Adam Curtis one can easily arrive at the conclusion that society is a prison.  

I take it a step further in line with gnostic knowledge and the ancient mystery schools and eastern traditions that the material universe it's self is a prison. A prison for conciousness. Our own mind a prison. A prison within a prison within a prison.  Or a dream within a dream within a dream.  An illusion within ann illusion within an illusion.

[Perfidy]

Knowing who we are as human beings isn't easy because we're the most complex organisms of all. The diversity in thought and ideas alone are testament to this. Somewhere in all of this diversity is truth. One strong indication of our misunderstanding of our selves as a race of sentient beings would be the chaos and madness that we see everywhere around the globe. Ignorance on a mass scale. Where we fail the most is in understanding of the mind's function. The human mind is definitely real although when the surgeon cuts into the body no mind is found. The mind is phenomena. It's function is to perceive other phenomena. Pain and pleasure are phenomena perceived by the mind. It is potentially avoidable through taming the mind. An example would be the yogi lying on a bed of nails or walking on hot coals.

[fromheeltoheal]

The mind is phenomena. It's function is to perceive other phenomena.

Exactly.  Reality is a phenomena, we all create our own, including claiming there is a universal one.  Who am I to say what someone else's should be, or that mine is better than theirs?

"The unexamined life is not worth living"  Socrates

[Blimblam]

Knowing who we are as human beings isn't easy because we're the most complex organisms of all. The diversity in thought and ideas alone are testament to this. Somewhere in all of this diversity is truth. One strong indication of our misunderstanding of our selves as a race of sentient beings would be the chaos and madness that we see everywhere around the globe. Ignorance on a mass scale. Where we fail the most is in understanding of the mind's function. The human mind is definitely real although when the surgeon cuts into the body no mind is found. The mind is phenomena. It's function is to perceive other phenomena. Pain and pleasure are phenomena perceived by the mind. It is potentially avoidable through taming the mind. An example would be the yogi lying on a bed of nails or walking on hot coals.

So true distinguishing from our own conditioning and "true self". Is not something one can learn outside themselves. The answers are within buried underneath our conditioning.