Have poor relationships affected my development?

[Springle]

Hi everyone

I hope it is alright to post this here. It is about me, but more on my past relationships and the people I shared that time with; I preferred to post it in this section as it is more private and you need to be a member to read it.

I was thinking about my relationship experiencing and how it has changed me and moulded me; especially in preparation for future relationship.

I was looking towards my previous boyfriends (I have two) and was thinking ':)amn... .they weren't quite right to be fair'. I'm more interested in my first boyfriend who many people in my life dislike because of his treatment to me; even acquaintances took poorly to him. However my second boyfriend had his share of problems too.

If I describe my ex's here and then perhaps explain a little how I'm feeling; could anyone help me unravel my past a bit? I still feel very confused and mixed emotions about many things in my life, especially my romantic life, and I am struggling at the moment to even find the words or logic so that I can begin battling some issues I have either gained or always had at my core.

Ex1: My first every bf at age 20 so quite late. I had never even kissed a boy before. I was not overly attracted to him I will admit but I heard he liked me and I kind of liked him so though 'what the Heck'. I had just got to Uni after 2 gap years so was ready to take some chances.

Some hmm red flags I suppose and things he did during out relationship (which was about 2 years) -

He had a history of drinking apparently and would drink a lot, boast about how much he could drink etc despite apparently having 3 liver failures

The first time we properly made out he outright called me a cr*p kisser

He wanted to spend every second together, would say he was ok with me having my own time but then would sulk if I wanted to go hang with friends or go out without him. Would guilt trip/emotionally blackmail me a lot

Continuing on from above he would sometimes invite me to his place then tell me he was going to work a night shift, so I would be stuck at his house alone all night

Within the first few weeks of dating he told his parents I was the 'one' and the girl he was going to marry

He would say he had done this or that, say he had made all these great achievements; all grandiose. Turned out, unsurprisingly, that they were all lies. He once told me he was Egoraptor... .I kid you now, I didn't know who that was at the time so I believed him!

He would call me fat regularly as well as other names.

He would look in the mirror and complain that he himself was fat but would do little about it.

He used to buy me expensive gifts but then use them to guilt trip me if I didn't do what he wanted.

He would sometimes get a bit physical with me.

We would row a lot, he was very stubborn and had to be right. He never ever gave me sincere apologies.

He went from loving his housemates to quickly dispising them and saying how they were lazy etc. Ended up packing up and moving into my tiny room and never leaving. He lived with me and some of my friends in the next two years and he would switch a lot from loving and hating them too.

He would rip on my best friend something chronic because he was gay. He was totally paranoid and sure he friend was faking in a ruse to get with me.

He would ring me every day and be really offended if I didn't pick up.

He would boast to other people at his work (I learnt this a long time later) about going home with certain girls whom he worked with, this wasn't true but he was with me at the time.

We never actually had sex. I was still a virgin when we broke up. He wouldn't do anything because he didn't like: foreplay, condoms, lube. This may be a TMI but he complained I was too 'small' for him and needed to sort it out if I wanted to be intimate. (He was a very average size).

He did not do cuddling etc either.

He would complain about his family loads. They seemed very loving though tbf but did drink an awful lot and were rather uninhabited with their humour and conversation topics. His sister was a bit of an alchi and off the rails too.

After we broke up I learnt that he had broken up with his previous gf just 3 hours before asking me out! Two weeks after we split he got back with her.

I did the breaking up. Now that all sounds dreadful and tbh it was, although I wouldn't call the relationship abusive I know many of my friends who witnessed it would. But now he lives with his ex, they have a little house, he has a good job and he has since apologised! He emailed me about a year and half after the BU with a huge message apologising for everything he did and said; I think he is still a troubled guy but I thought that was pretty incredible. Him and his girl seem very happy together and honestly I am happy for them.

Now onto EX2. Ex2 I met while in a r/s with Ex1 and it wasn't til my BU with Ex1 did I begin to notice Ex2. It was very obvious he likes me, I found it very cute and I became interested in return. We fell in love fairly quickly and the first 2/3 months of our r/s were amazing. Generally he was an amazing guy but had his fair share of problems also... .-

He had a very turbulent relationship with his family. He has 3 siblings and only gets on with one of his brothers. His mother is an odd individual and from what Ex2 told me she sounds very much like an uBPD, particularly a hermit/Queen type. His father is extremely apathetic and seems completely beaten down by his wife.

He was very focused on his life path, namely his job. No comprimising, not flexibility, none at all. Was extremely difficult since we lived in seperate countries once we left Uni and trying to come to a conclusion on where/how we would move in together was a nightmare. Basically it was his way or the high way I found in the end.

He was insanely cheap. Would go on and on about how he was saving to buy property which was fine but it meant I got very flimsy and unthoughtful Christmas gifts and trips to stingey fast food joints. When it came to himself however he would buy new cars, games, gadgets, clothes etc.

He was very focused on himself. He had a hard time I found stopping and thinking of the consequences his actions might have on other people, leading to me being hurt a lot and him standing their blankly unable to understand why.

He would complain about the people he worked with a lot but seemed determined to continue working their for the next 20 years or so.

He would often complain about his friends a lot too (who I always thought seemed very damaged and fickle themselves), calling them 'crazy' on lots of occassions but still insistant on hanging out with them and be around them a lot

I am not one to cramp on the whole 'bros before hoes' schtick but he pushed me off a lot to see him friends despite them living in close proximity, ability to see them most days, and only able to see me a couple of weekends a month.

He looked up to a lot of action stars and wrestlers etc. He wanted to be ripped but would not even go to the gym. He was quite a skinny and unfit guy, he didn't talk about this much but I could tell it got to him.

From what I gathered he had had a lot of previous relationships or at least flings, he had very rarely spent any extended period of time single.

He never ever sincerely apologies for me. We never really rowed but often I would be cross with him because he did something I found insensitive and he would just sit there all sulky, not a work. He would sometimes half apologise, say things like 'I'm sorry you feel that way' but never owned up to his actions. He even once pushed me in the face into a wall in front of his cousins and still refused to give me a proper apology.

He would regularly forget we had plans which I found very frustrating.

He would always want to go out if it involved his friends but if it was just him and I he would make excuses about money etc and just wanted to stay in bed and have sex.

He had a VERY high sex drive.

He was always very tired, especially if he missed a meal. He would regularly have to take naps.

He found some of the things I did annoying, would stop me in the middle of sentences to correct my grammar or something which got on my nerves quite a bit as I felt it seemed like he wasn't even listening to what I was saying.

He thought what you felt and what you thought were the same thing.

When we broke up I was very blind sided. We had had issues with planning our future and I can not deny I was getting agitated by how unbudging and uncomprimsing he was; how he just seemed to expect me to give up huge portions of my life and him make absolutely no amends to make it work. When we broke up I really felt like he was bailing out, falling at the first hurdle; not even bothered to try. I was so upset as we had been so in love.

A few months after our break up he was with his new dBPDgf who was a mutual friend of ours. Really felt like twisting the knife. The funny thing was he never cried or seemed THAT emotional in the aftermath of the break up (though loads of mutual friends told me he was really upset) and even said, while telling me it was over, 'I didn't realise you'd be this upset'. In our final message exchange he told me I was 'amazing' and 'deserved happiness' and so on. We have no spoken in well over a year.

I currently feel very uncertain moving forward in my relationships. I would say my previous experiences have no been very good at all and I am just worrying that it's me who makes people act this way.

[Pingo]

Hi Springle, Well I can guarantee you are not the reason they acted that way... .no one is responsible for how another person acts.  You can't 'make' someone act abusive to you!  And that is what you experienced!  Two different men but similar in how your needs didn't get taken care of.  Who was looking out for Springle? It is scary moving forward when we've had bad experiences, I'm dealing with that as well.  Put the focus on you. What are your interests?  What is your idea of a great guy?  What qualities would you like in a man?  What kind of values would you like to share with him?  I think we tend to sometimes go into r/ss blindly not really giving a lot of thought to these things.  I even made a list recently (I'm the queen of lists ) in what values are important to me and then I circled my 'core values'.  I realised my ex didn't have ANY of my core values!  I had never thought about it which seems crazy now.  To make my list I actually googled 'values lists' (I know that seems silly but I was really out of touch with the whole idea of values) and then picked out the things that were important to me.  It was really helpful.  This is how we get to know ourselves.  I think that is key in moving forward into the next r/s.

[Springle]

But I never identified what they did as abuse :S. I certainly would not say it was normal but I feel it all too mild to say it was abusive.

In fairness I had my difficult moments too.

In my relationship with Ex1 I did test him once, didn't answer my phone to see what he would do, I wanted to see if he would have a genuinely caring reaction and you know what? He did! He was really cross when I finally re-appeared and rightly so, I felt terrible about it. I did pressure him to change quite a bit too when perhaps I should have just accepted we weren't compatible, I just wanted him to stop drinking so much, get fitter (so he didn't moan he was 'fat', make an effort to be more sociable and get some of his own friends and maybe present himself a bit better but it led to so many rows. The upside was that Ex1 was quite protective and would stick up for me if in trouble.

With Ex2 he genuinely and quite deeply disliked Ex1 because of the way he treated me and was extremely particular about not treating me the same way. I compared him to Ex1 a load in the beginning, in a good way for Ex2 of course but I know it still got to him; I should have appreciated he was his own person. He would listen to my problems, when I got down with depression he would sit on the phone for me for a long time and just let me cry, I feel I over did it though; perhaps he thought he was becoming too much of my therapist. He did try to discuss solutions to any problems I had, but then again past giving a few suggestions he never did much else in the way of support. My depression made me very emotional and paranoid, I could never bring up an issue with him without crying and I think I put a great amount of pressure on him to be this amazing, flawless person which was just impossible; in a lot of ways I expected him to save me from the depression and to be my future. I was certainly not an easy person to deal with at the time, I have apologised to him for this but never got a response, not sure if he never got it or doesn't care and has just ignored it. He ultimately broke up with me because of my depression (but veiling it behind logistical reasons about the future of our relationship, I thought that was pretty cowardly) and because the relationship was 'too hard' when being in a relationship should be 'easy' apparently. He did tell me I was 'incredible' tbf and that I would 'make a guy very happy one day', it was rather sweet but in other ways I wonder if he was trying to make a bit of a martyr out of himself; like 'look! I'm setting you free!' no your not, you're dumping me out on my ar$e.

In the end he decided it was too much hassle and impeded too much on his little life to put in a bit of elbow grease and improve a relationship with a girl who, lived just across the border, but genuinely cared for him and loved him than to nab a mentally unstable, incompatible girl who just wanted him so she wasn't alone all because she conveniently lived round the corner. It's what he wanted, convenience, it's how his parents work, they clearly haven't loved each other for years but it is just more convenient to be together than alone now.

Making a point of the event where he pushed me in front of his cousins. I genuinely think he didn't mean to push me that hard BUT he still should not of done it, he still should have immediately and sincerely apologised and... honestly? I should have grabbed my things and left immediately. However, I did use to do this thing where, if he was a bit hyper and talking rubbish (and we were in the company of friends), I would put my hand on his cheek and gently push his face the other way, as if to say 'no more talking now.' It was a joke! But I wonder whether he just didn't see it that way, whether he found it genuinely condescending and humiliating :S. If that was the case he should have just talked to me about it rather than pushing me into a wall when I made a light-hearted jib about him but it still makes me feel awful! I remember telling some people on another forum about that and they all went ballistic and said that what I was doing was abusive and equally as bad as him pushing me; I'd never thought of it that way - it felt gut wrenching.

[Pingo]

Springle, it sounds like you are at a point in your life where you are really ready to self-reflect and see where you need to work on your own issues in relationships.  This is very healthy.   This is getting real.  But you are having trouble interpreting the abuse that you may have suffered in these two relationships (the 'FOG'.  I can relate to your confusion.  Sometimes we think "well at least they haven't hit us" so we're not sure if it's abuse.  I think part of this confusion lies in society's view of abuse.  We don't always recognise that emotional and verbal abuse can be equally damaging as physical abuse, if not more.  I think it can be confusing when we have been brought up in FOO where there is abuse as it is all we know and sometimes think this is just normal.  When I got out of my r/s I read a great book about abuse by Lundy Bancroft called "Why does he do that".  It was shocking!  It made me realise that I had not only been abused in my r/s but in other r/ss before and also by my mom!  I had spent 4 yrs with this man who I made excuses for, rationalised, ignored, etc bad behaviour because I would rather see him as 'damaged' or just 'complicated'.  Nope.  He was an abuser! Reading through your list above, I see some very apparent abusive behaviour.  Try imagining a guy doing those things to your best friend or someone you hold dear to you.  It might help you see things differently.

[Springle]

I know, it feels just so extreme to call it abuse. Sometimes I worry that the way I tell it warps it also; am I subconsciously exaggerating or painting it all bad? Ignoring and good or compassionate things my ex's did? I almost feel like I need third, fourth and fifth opinions on it because trusting my own is so difficult at the moment, but as I said above what if they are only hearing one half of the story. I try to take responsibility for my own faults I really do but maybe I making a mountain out of a molehill... .it did not feel like a molehill at the time though... .or now tbf.

I would not say I was from an abusive background but my parents broke up when I was very young and I don't see my dad much (his gf and him have a very volatile r/s though) and my mother has never been with anyone else; I suppose I don't know what a normal healthy relationship looks like but I feel I can imagine it.

I'll have to see if I can get a copy of that book, do you know if it's on digital download?

[Pingo]

Springle, it is in digital b/c that's how I read it... .on my kindle. 

I know, it feels just so extreme to call it abuse. Sometimes I worry that the way I tell it warps it also; am I subconsciously exaggerating or painting it all bad? Ignoring and good or compassionate things my ex's did? I almost feel like I need third, fourth and fifth opinions on it because trusting my own is so difficult at the moment, but as I said above what if they are only hearing one half of the story. I try to take responsibility for my own faults I really do but maybe I making a mountain out of a molehill... .it did not feel like a molehill at the time though... .or now tbf.

My ex used these exact words when I was asking him to move out. Accused me of making a mountain out of a molehill.  No accountability on his part.  And no, it most certainly did not feel like a molehill at the time.  Because it wasn't.

[Ihope2]

Hi Springle.  I have read your posts and I thought that sounds so much like some of the boyfriends I have had and the weird and somewhat degrading way I let myself be treated by some of them.  I have had some quite self-absorbed boyfriends in my time, and I hardly paused to reflect on what I was getting out of these relationships and whether I was really happy about how I was being treated.

I remember often wondering if I was the weird one, and why couldn't I just do a "normal relationship".

The thing is, I don't know about you, but I certainly never had a good model of a "normal" and healthy intimate relationship to follow in my FOO.

I never witnessed healthy relating between my mother and father, and then subsequent men she had in her life  after their divorce, whilst we kids were still living with her.

So I have tolerated some pretty cr@ppy relationships and also felt the onus was always more on me to "get with the programme", I hardly ever reflected on my partners and what they were bringing to the relationship.  Until now after my most disastrous of relationships with the most highly troubled man I have ever met.  After a year of marriage and a highly dysfunctional relationship, which has mercifully now ended in divorce and us going our separate ways.

I do think that people who have had less than "good enough" parenting and unhealthy role models in their FOO, are developmentally more challenged when it comes to identifying healthy partners, and being in a healthy relationship. It is not impossible, but we have a lot of awakening and catching up to do.  This is how I feel about myself, at any rate.  I am not going to beat myself up about my own "inadequacies" and "character flaws" any more. Instead, I need to start recognising and acknowledging that their were deficiencies in the way I was parented as a child, and that these have created some gaps for me in my personal development.  BUT I CAN CATCH UP as best I can, and I will.  We all can. 

[Springle]

Hi Springle.  I have read your posts and I thought that sounds so much like some of the boyfriends I have had and the weird and somewhat degrading way I let myself be treated by some of them.  I have had some quite self-absorbed boyfriends in my time, and I hardly paused to reflect on what I was getting out of these relationships and whether I was really happy about how I was being treated.

I remember often wondering if I was the weird one, and why couldn't I just do a "normal relationship".

The thing is, I don't know about you, but I certainly never had a good model of a "normal" and healthy intimate relationship to follow in my FOO.

I never witnessed healthy relating between my mother and father, and then subsequent men she had in her life  after their divorce, whilst we kids were still living with her.

So I have tolerated some pretty cr@ppy relationships and also felt the onus was always more on me to "get with the programme", I hardly ever reflected on my partners and what they were bringing to the relationship.  Until now after my most disastrous of relationships with the most highly troubled man I have ever met.  After a year of marriage and a highly dysfunctional relationship, which has mercifully now ended in divorce and us going our separate ways.

I do think that people who have had less than "good enough" parenting and unhealthy role models in their FOO, are developmentally more challenged when it comes to identifying healthy partners, and being in a healthy relationship. It is not impossible, but we have a lot of awakening and catching up to do.  This is how I feel about myself, at any rate.  I am not going to beat myself up about my own "inadequacies" and "character flaws" any more. Instead, I need to start recognising and acknowledging that their were deficiencies in the way I was parented as a child, and that these have created some gaps for me in my personal development.  BUT I CAN CATCH UP as best I can, and I will.  We all can. 

Thank you for this Ihope2. I felt after my second r/s that there must be something wrong with me if a guy did not consider my needs important, that I was being pushy and demanding. It hurts to think the people you love and care for so much do not feel the same towards you and perhaps never had. I do need to alter my own behaviour though, I need better boundaries and clearer values; I need to be sure of what I want out of a relationship and not just go on emotion and feeling alone.


Pingo, you said some of the points I made about my ex's were indicators of abusive behaviour, may I ask which points? I'm looking to approach talk therapy soon and it would help make any explanation I give to a future therapist or counselor clearer. Thank you.

[Pingo]

Pingo, you said some of the points I made about my ex's were indicators of abusive behaviour, may I ask which points? I'm looking to approach talk therapy soon and it would help make any explanation I give to a future therapist or counselor clearer. Thank you.

Springle, we all have different things that trigger emotions in us.  What bothers me might not bother you and vice versa.  Everyone can be insensitive at times but healthy, respectful people usually apologise and actually mean it if they say something that offends someone else.  The first guy seemed quite manipulative, the second guy seemed uncaring and unthoughtful.  Emotional blackmail is abuse.  Sulking and using guilt trips is abuse.  Calling you a cr*p kisser, fat as well as other names, is abuse.  These were just some of the things that stood out to me.  You need to ask yourself, how did these things make you feel?  Did they build you up, make you a stronger you?  Or did they tear you down, make you feel weak and defective? 

From all the reading I have done, there are a couple of things about abusive people that stand out.  They feel they are ENTITLED (to have whatever they want, treat you in whichever manner they want, etc) and that they feel they are the CENTRE of the r/s (their needs come first, everything revolves around them). 

Like Ihope2 said, I have also had a string of crappy relationships.  They were ALL self-absorbed.  Seems to be the kind I attract!  But it wasn't until this last r/s that I really had to open my eyes to how I was being treated and how it is I want to be treated.  You are young, it's so great that you are asking yourself this now.  I unfortunately waited until after 2 marriages to really ask myself why I was putting up with this garbage!  Seeing a T will be invaluable, sometimes they can point out stuff that you haven't seen along the way. 

[MaybeSo]

I want to reinforce Ihopes comments.

Many of us were not overtly abused as children, but suffered a kind of neglect or absence whereby we didn't get the kind of hands-on experiential training about what healthy pair bonding looks and feels like ….it just wasn’t present.  My parents were not hitting each other or anything….they just were not there modeling anything….so we come into adulthood without a map, and frankly, we tend to pair up with folks with complementary deficits.

in doing a lot of research on attachment theory and developmental theory…. it is rare for two people to get together who are more than two developmental phases apart (Mahler).  I am working with a clinician who specializes in couples therapy and after 30 years of working with couples and being immersed in all the research…she agrees…water seeks it’s own, or similar…level.

By the way... .my childhood was very similar to yours... .father left mom for a very crazy (histrionic, npd?) other woman before I was 5, and mom never re partnered with anyone and had low grade depression (dysphoria)  forever ... .not a rich environment with which to learn healthy intimacy skills, right?  (Your style of intense self-questioning in your post is remarkably like my own especially in my early days here, but I still do it….interesting…not to say self reflection isn’t good, but when I do it there’s a kind of anxiety around it, and I can do it obsessively and never get enough reassurance…so…I have learned, that’s developmental…I still question and self reflect but I’m learning to be more at ease and self trusting)

So if we didn’t get it in childhood…we learn it now! We can have an earned secure attachment style, we can move to higher developmental stages... .We can develop skills, it just takes time, practice and reflection.

A good, easy book is a Attached: The new science of attachment et al by Levine & Heller

PS: attachment theory (Bowlby, Ainsworth, Main etc.) is well researched and has been around since 50s but they are able to use neuroscience breakthroughs to enrich it

[Springle]

Oo another book to add to the list.

The whole childhood thing makes me feel really bad for Ex2 especially , as I said I did not like how he treated me at all at the end but from what I gather he suffered A LOT of neglect as a child. I don't think he even really realises how poor and damaging his upbringing was that's the worst part. His mother was/is incredibly controlling, would have extremely volatile rages, emotionally blackmail her whole family, keep his dad isolated from his friends and family until he had none. I don't think his mum even likes her kids let alone loves them! I don't understand how she managed to have 4 when she has absolutely nil maternal instinct and seems to just regard her kids as a pain that impede on her life. I remember once asking Ex2 once if his mum was excited about the prospect of being a grandmother (we were talking about his older siblings and the prospects of them getting married), he said no which surprised me, I mean... she had four kids and what mothers don't get excited about becoming a grandmother? I asked why and he said his mum didn't want to be a grandmother at all, she saw it as too much 'hassle'. I thought that was stone cold. That seemed to be her thing for everything, it was all just a hassle, bothered her and interrupted her isolated little bubble of a life. Even all of Ex2's friend said his mum was nuts.

His dad was harder to read because, as I said, he was really apathetic. I got the impression he may have well been a once lively and passionate man. I also got the image that his wife had kept him at a distance from his children as he seemed to know next to nothing about any of them. His eldest brother was also really odd. He was nearly 30 when Ex2 and I were dating, I only met him once and heard stories about him through my Ex but in the short 30 second meeting I had with him it was clear he was on the autistic spectrum or at least had a very real problem and evident struggle to lead an independent life; he ran away from me in fear when I introduced myself I'm not kidding. And what does his family do? They all just say he's an 'antisocial d*ck'. I found that so upsetting to hear now no one thought to reflect and have any empathy for this poor guy.

Ex2's upbringing was really warped and I think a lot of the time he was striving to fill the checklist of: House, Car, Good Job, Girl, Money etc regardless of how he acquired it or the quality just so he could get some attention from his parents and make himself feel like he was 'fine' and his upbringing had not effected him at all. He used to say his middle brother was the 'Golden Boy' and would get everything in his parents' wills when they eventually passed away. He genuinely seemed to think that everyone only truly cared about themselves despite me telling him that wasn't true and I cared about him. He used to act mellow and that any problem or drama was just water off a duck's back but you know what... .I think being like that all the time is unhealthy, if you don't get riled or upset about something every now and again then how do you know you even acknowledge your emotions? I think that might have been it, he'd either ignore his emotions or push them deep down inside him where they wouldn't bother him; possibly both. I know he has not cried since he was 9 for example.

[MaybeSo]

Yup, another book.  

Understanding yourself better, which includes understanding where you came from,  leads to better relating.  

You write very eloquently and with much detail and thought about your ex's... .and have a very good understanding of your Ex's backgrounds and how that shapes how they are.

That same curiosity and appreciation is needed in our own self discovery.  That's how we develop as people.

[Springle]

Yup, another book.  

Understanding yourself better, which includes understanding where you came from,  leads to better relating.  

You write very eloquently and with much detail and thought about your ex's... .and have a very good understanding of your Ex's backgrounds and how that shapes how they are.

That same curiosity and appreciation is needed in our own self discovery.  That's how we develop as people.

I feel I can assess other people very well I will say, but myself is more of a mystery which is why I'm currently investigation further talk therapy to help me get my inner core build out.

I really really hope and pray Ex2 is able to self reflect one day and improve his life, future and prospects dramatically; I really really deeply loved him so seeing him like this is just heart breaking, I want him to have an amazing life not be stuck, bottling up negative emotions, with a girl who is only going to exacerbate them further. I mean this sort of thing keeps me awake at night.