Can someone explain the random nonsense?

[JAC_flgirl]

I am still learning about this illness, but can someone explain what makes them throw out any logic? When I first saw this I thought, is he drunk? On drugs? Just plain dumb?  Its like I could have asked him a question, and received a different answer each time.  Why does this happen?

Example; Why did you blow up? response: because I felt like you weren't really committed... .because I was still mad that you did blah blah last year... .because I feel like you won't be supportive for me to do blah blah. 

And all in the same day!

[Mutt]

Example; Why did you blow up? response: because I felt like you weren't really committed... .because I was still mad that you did blah blah last year... .because I feel like you won't be supportive for me to do blah blah.

It's emotional blackmail. You have Guilt from FOG in your example. His rage or tantrum are his actions and he's blaming you in saying that your not committed to justify his actions. It triggers feelings of guilt in the significant other. He's responsible for his behaviors.

Sufferers are blamers and guilt-peddlers who make us figure out what they want, and always conclude that it is up to us to ensure they get it. Sufferers take the position that if they feel miserable, sick, unhappy, or are just plain unlucky, there’s only one solution: our giving them what they want – even if they haven’t told us what it is.

Read more about the transactional dynamics in this bpdfamily editorial: CLICK HERE

[Aussie JJ]

Many explanations for this, many interpretations. 

One thing I have learnt is that it truelly cant be explained in a logical sense as it is ilogical in nature.  So many of us try to have insight into whats happening and understand the BPD dynamic that the poerson in our life lives with every day and we just cant. 

My thought process when I learnt this and started trying to analyze it all... .

Does that mean I am lacking empathy?  Does that mean I have such a bad pathalogical problem, what disorder do I have!  I cant understand I must be the one broken.  I have to have BPD, no wait I dont have BPD my psychologist says I dont, I must have NPD, I'll ask him that.  He says I dont have NPD, something has to be wrong, what is it!  I have ASPD that has to be it, they cant be cured, ___ I have ASPD, I will fix myself, I will conquor this!  I ask my psychologist and he laughs at me... .  I ask him what it is then?

The response, he has been a psychologist for 15+ years and worked with all different disorders from the Cluster A, B and C's and some he thought deserved a whole new category as they were that special.  He himself couldnt understand the thought patterns of people with BPD, did that make him have something wrong as he couldnt put himself in the shoes of a disordered person to understand what was happening in there head?  He could do it with everyone else, he could do it with me and many other patients.  Always the most dificulties with the most surveer examples that walk through the doors as they were that far from normal it was beyond normal to be able to place yourself in their shoes and understand what effect your words were going to have on them.  He tells me therapy for BPD even the most sucessful concentrates on behaviour and teaching new ways to relate, not fixing what is there, but to supress what is already there and learn new ways to relate. 

I look dumbfounded and he tells me that there has been a huge amount of work done on BPD and tryign to help those with it and essentially they still cant change those thought patterns entierly they can only change the way they behave and try to assist them to suppress those thought patterns, not fix them as they cant be understood properly. 

I then got told if I had ASPD and no emotions I wouldnt have lasted more than a hour with a pwBPD as I wouldnt have been engaging their emotions.  He says ASPD and BPD will never have a relationship. 

Congradulations, your in the same place many of us have been, trying to understand.  Accepting the blame that has been placed onto you because you dont know what in the flying fkkk you did wrong?

Answer, in simple terms, you were yourself.  You stood up for your values, have a sense of self and you wouldnt let it be erroded.  One thing that theatens a pwBPD is the very thing that they cling to.  A strong person who knows what they want and gives them a stable attachment.  When this person is strong and they are both comfortable and uncomfortable at the same time, they will degrade/devalue those strengths as you being so strong and them being so weak is a threat, they must bring you down to there level.  They inflict the pain they feel through having no boundarys onto you and in that process erode yours and you as a person. 

Dont question something that is totally illogical. 

My 2 cents, no matter how much I read, try to blend different models on BPD to get a more whole picture of what ishappenign and relate to how my exBPDgf is going at the end of the day.  Its theory, theory that is a logical way of explaining total chaos in a pwBPD's head.  Suck's but the sooner you stop tryign to understand the thought patterns etc and just name the behaviours, idealization, devaluation.  Simpler the better the easier it is if you still have to have contact. 

Name the behaviours, ignore them, dont let them effect your sense of self or your values.  Understand what effect the behaviour has on you and make sure you dont let it have that efffect, dont let it degrade your own self worth with its illogical nature. 


AJJ. 

[Jessica84]

LOL Aussie, that is good stuff! Brilliant. I used to think I was mentally ill myself. What was I thinking? That I somehow developed a disorder all of a sudden? No. Logical people want logical explanations. Otherwise, our brains get set on fire trying to find one! And it burns... oh how it burns. I just stop and slather on some mental aloe vera - accept that I'll never understand it - and go on my merry way.

And boom, just like that, the world makes sense again. 

[Aussie JJ]

LOL Aussie, that is good stuff! Brilliant. I used to think I was mentally ill myself. What was I thinking? That I somehow developed a disorder all of a sudden? No. Logical people want logical explanations. Otherwise, our brains get set on fire trying to find one! And it burns... oh how it burns. I just stop and slather on some mental aloe vera - accept that I'll never understand it - and go on my merry way.

We have all been there, in truth, we are all a little bit crazy in our own ways.  I haven't been called brilliant in a long time.  Now I'm having my Narc traits come out again and thinking I am brilliant!   How good am I!

See what I am saying, we all have our little quirks.  Accept them for what they are. 

Sorry about the spelling, I am reading my last few posts and disgusted at it however cant change it as at work and if I post it in a word document to spell check it will get in trouble.  At least I can post again!


AJJ. 

[JAC_flgirl]

LOL Aussie, that is good stuff! Brilliant. I used to think I was mentally ill myself. What was I thinking? That I somehow developed a disorder all of a sudden? No. Logical people want logical explanations. Otherwise, our brains get set on fire trying to find one! And it burns... oh how it burns. I just stop and slather on some mental aloe vera - accept that I'll never understand it - and go on my merry way.

We have all been there, in truth, we are all a little bit crazy in our own ways.  I haven't been called brilliant in a long time.  Now I'm having my Narc traits come out again and thinking I am brilliant!   How good am I!

See what I am saying, we all have our little quirks.  Accept them for what they are. 

Sorry about the spelling, I am reading my last few posts and disgusted at it however cant change it as at work and if I post it in a word document to spell check it will get in trouble.  At least I can post again!


AJJ. 

So true! In the end, my best friend said- we all know he is crazy, but I'm beginning to wonder if he is driving YOU crazy.  One of my faults is the need to understand something in order to move past it, so this has been difficult.  I appreciate you helping me make sense of the madness.

[Jessica84]

One thing that has helped me is learning to laugh off the craziness. Instead of asking why, I find my ex's behavior almost comical now. I'm not laughing at him, in fact I take BPD as a serious condition. But some of his whacky behaviors are so over-the-top ridiculous my brain literally goes on strike! Another thing is learning gratitude. I really am grateful I don't suffer this affliction. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

We can't make sense of the madness. We can only control how we let it affect us. So laugh and be grateful.

[Aussie JJ]

Ok,

Instead of understanding the BPD and all its intricities how about counter transferance?  Often this is how psychologists interact and get inside your head and understand what is going on and then question those thoughts to change them and the assosiated behaviours (on a basic level).  

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countertransference

This will explain why your feeling all over the place about this, essentially you have taken on some of his thoughts that are projected onto you and that is why your feeling crazy.  Your not suppressing those feelings your working through them, the feelings he has placed onto you.  Your not questioning them either, your accepting them as true and going massive What the heck is happenign here, this is illogical.  

To put this into perspective, never ask a pwBPD why?  For mine when she was full blown ripping into me I was accepting everything she was saying about me as true, I was a babbling mess.  I ended up for 3 days straight crying going, why am I like this, what is happening?  They never question themselves as it hurts so much, you have that same pain but your questioning it and working through it.  

The longer you have contact and accept those twisted thought patterns expressed through the behaviours and words the more effect it will have on you and the crazier you will feel.  

Take some time away, build distance, focus on yourself fnad your thought patterns.  


AJJ.  

[fromheeltoheal]

To me it's not random, at least when I apply what I've learned about the disorder to my ex's behavior, which was textbook borderline.  Someone with BPD never successfully detached from their primary caregiveer in infancy, to develop an ego and become their own autonomous 'self', something most of us do.  Accordingly, they spend their lives looking for 'attachments' to merge with psychically, to create one person with, to fuse.  Once they do, it sets up a precarious situation where if they get too close they feel engulfed, lose themselves, if they get too far away they feel abandoned, which isn't a stretch really: when you're creating one person out of two, where do you draw the line?  There's also deep shame in there, a result of abuse or neglect or whatever it was that created the disorder to begin with.  Also, just to pile on, normal emotional and mental development was arrested at the time the trauma happened, so someone who looks and can sound like an adult really isn't emotionally.

So.  We become attached, emotionally enmeshed, the push/pull dance starts, with a borderline trying to stay between engulfed and abandoned, crazymaking for us because we don't understand those priorities at all.  Then the shame shows up, because it's clear the fiction that was created to affect the attachment was just that, a fiction, and as we try to move beyond the honeymoon stage into a stable relationship it is clear that a borderline is incapable, and feels ashamed as a result.  And then of course the lack of development makes having adult conversations with resolutions impossible too.

So what's left?  The tools, the defense mechanisms.  Accepting responsibility for some sort of relationship upset would result in a borderline melting into a puddle of shame, mine always ran for ice cream when that happened, her drug of choice, which is then followed by projecting blame on the alleged culprit, us, a shirking of responsibility.  Everything has to be our fault for a borderline to even tolerate the situation a little, and if we're predisposed to feeling guilty when we are blamed, we contribute to the dysfunction by becoming triggered and getting defensive ourselves.  And once we do, a borderline might feel they're about to be abandoned, are ashamed, and are incapable of dropping the sht and having a real conversation, so the nonsensical starts flowing, borne out of panic, and everyone spirals into insanity.  To a point in my case, after a while the blame just got ridiculous and I started standing up for myself in a big way, which was interpreted as impending abandonment for sure, and it ended because I did leave, a self-fulfilling prophesy.

One man's hallucination, although it sits well in my head.  Apply as needed.

[JAC_flgirl]

To me it's not random, at least when I apply what I've learned about the disorder to my ex's behavior, which was textbook borderline.  Someone with BPD never successfully detached from their primary caregiveer in infancy, to develop an ego and become their own autonomous 'self', something most of us do.  Accordingly, they spend their lives looking for 'attachments' to merge with psychically, to create one person with, to fuse.  Once they do, it sets up a precarious situation where if they get too close they feel engulfed, lose themselves, if they get too far away they feel abandoned, which isn't a stretch really: when you're creating one person out of two, where do you draw the line?  There's also deep shame in there, a result of abuse or neglect or whatever it was that created the disorder to begin with.  Also, just to pile on, normal emotional and mental development was arrested at the time the trauma happened, so someone who looks and can sound like an adult really isn't emotionally.

That makes sense... .he has a very odd relationship with his Mother.  She is highly controlling & even admitted to me to manipulating him & neglecting him when he was a baby.  He has always been treated as the black sheep.  Also, I even told him he was trying to turn me into his Mother, as in replace her.  He admitted to that much, saying he's not capable of doing anything by himself.  This man is 43 yrs old!

[Aussie JJ]

heeltoheal,

I can pathologies our whole relationship and understand from that theoretical standpoint as your describing why it happened.  Its a cycle of idolisation, devaluation, discard.  A Cinderella story on repeat where they are always looking for perfection.  It is repetitive (repetition compulsion I think is what fraud named it?) and a continuous cycle that will play out for life with objects on the side of the main object or with multiples along the way. 

Thing is, understanding the role I played was even harder for me to delve into.  Understanding this was the bit that sort of gave me the  moment. 

Easier for me at present to have a vast understanding of it all but my coping mechanism is simple, XYZ behaviour, this is how it effects me, what is my choice to respond in a way I find acceptable and am proud of.  My decision is XYZ. 

You are 100 % correct in how you have broken it down though. 


AJJ. 

[fromheeltoheal]

That makes sense... .he has a very odd relationship with his Mother.  She is highly controlling & even admitted to me to manipulating him & neglecting him when he was a baby.  He has always been treated as the black sheep.  Also, I even told him he was trying to turn me into his Mother, as in replace her.  He admitted to that much, saying he's not capable of doing anything by himself.  This man is 43 yrs old!

There you go, some confirmation.  It's also important to realize that how someone interprets what happened is far more important than what actually happened.  Borderlines are extra sensitive, so something that may be considered 'normal' behavior by a mother might be considered neglect by an oversensitive person.

Also, the failure to detach here is not like the person in their late twenties still living at home type of failure to detach, which might be labelled slacker and such, it's much deeper than that. On a psychic level, before an infant has developed the ability to think and reason, before the ability to think cognitively is developed, we all need to go through that phase where we realize that mother is something other than us, there's a 'her' and a 'me', a separateness, a distinction between entities, where prior to that we thought, or felt, that we were one person with our mother, not a stretch really, since we used to be inside her.  Most people weather that distinction and the 'abandonment depression', as it's called, just fine, on the way to developing an ego and becoming our own 'self'.  Borderlines never do that, they bang up against that abandonment depression time and again, never going through it, and get stuck at that phase of development.  Plus they couldn't articulate it, since it happened before cognitive thought was available, so it gets hardwired into who they 'are', and all of the behaviors come out of that.

Heavy stuff, tough to get your head around at first, but can you imagine what that would be like?  When we can, we can also imagine what our priorities would be in life, and also how we would always feel 'different'.  Sad that, and unfixable.

[Aussie JJ]

Its really hard, I cant put myself in her shoes no matter how much I try.  I do remember the episodes where she would 'regress' by basically curling up i a ball in the fetal position on the ground and crying uncontrollably.  Happened a few times too many and I would always be supportive but then accept the blame for her being in that state. 

Quite horrible.  Her parents, well her mother has BPD and her father has some serious NARC traits.  She never had a chance, that alone lets me have if nothing else compassion for her.  Really a horrible position to be in.  When you have kids crying like that we have to sooth them etc.  BPD's are grown adults with no ability to sooth those feelings.  Bloody horrific, I am not actually angry when I remember that but sad that no matter what I do I cant help her and take that pain away.  Also sad with that same knowledge below, its unfixable.   :'(

[fromheeltoheal]

Thing is, understanding the role I played was even harder for me to delve into.  Understanding this was the bit that sort of gave me the moment.

I agree Aussie.  For me the clinical psychology of the disorder explained her behavior perfectly to me, suddenly everything made sense, where it was nonsensical and felt like insanity previously.  So once I had her figured out, I started to realize how I had responded to the 'stimulus' she provided, many aha moments, many little spurts of depression, like 'Oh Fck!', many reframes, many reinterpretations.  None of it easy but all of it valuable, what I see now as the gift of the relationship, and the world looks different to me now, feels like I grew up a bunch in the last year, and life is getting very good, long, long time coming.

So was that light the end of the tunnel for you, or a train?

[bungenstein]

To put this into perspective, never ask a pwBPD why?  For mine when she was full blown ripping into me I was accepting everything she was saying about me as true, I was a babbling mess.  I ended up for 3 days straight crying going, why am I like this, what is happening?  They never question themselves as it hurts so much, you have that same pain but your questioning it and working through it.  

Towards the end of the relationship, I would just start crying randomly whenever I was with my ex, she could have been being totally fine, but the tears would just flow out of my eyes and I couldn't even explain why. Its truly horrendous to just start crying at random times without being able to put your finger on why, and not being able to stop yourself, and your ex being totally confused as to why you are crying, did you experience this?

[Aussie JJ]

It was the titanic on steroids at the end of the tunnel... .

I linked different things together and although I understood it all i was in denial.  She said one line to me and I just went to myself, "I am better than a bloody dog, and the dog deserved better than she was capable of ever giving."

To explain a bit... . I knew she had a new BF and was trying to re-parent our son, I decided to try to start again in a respectful manner if she made the choice to do so, decided I could work through it all for a family again and I could manage with her the issues she knows she has, she isn't stupid, she knows she has BPD.  

She said yelling at me "You no longer meet those emotional needs!."  I was silent for 10-15 seconds processing everything but what stood out was one the e-mails I had been reading prior.  

She bought a dog when going to an animal shelter as the dog was looking at her puppy eyed, she decided she needed a dog, took it in on the spot.  I was meant to go for coffee with her that morning (before we were living together) but had worked late that night like 15 hours so slept in.  She was angry at me for sleeping in calling me lazy etc (no empathy).  Anyway, I questioned her on getting the dog as I was looking at buying an apartment at the time and now needed a house as it wasn't a small dog... . Usual guilt trip but there was an e-mai that night that she sent me... . Contents outlined below... .

* I wont be guilt tripped because I did something good for me

* Dog meets my emotional needs and is there to give me a cuddle in the morning when I am all alone

* She is a good dog and it was a good decision, you weren't there and how dare you not support me.  

* repeat, dog meets all of my emotional needs in the morning and she is always there happy and playful with me.  

I didn't reply, I sort of was walking on eggshells a bit already just clammed up.  

Fast forward to me sitting there processing everything and the denial stopping, I no longer met her emotional needs, that was the new BF.  Just like the dog, myself, our son.  All objects that get idolised initially.  With the dog, she had a love hate relationship once we moved in together and her father wasn't there to protect it from her.  She ended up splitting the  dog black and having it put down without telling me and when I asked where the dog was she told me the dog was a threat to our son and she couldn't control its behaviour so she had to put it down as she wouldn't give a dangerous dog to another family or back to the shelter... .

She had been trying to basically put me down like the dog, that cycle continues.  She had a new object with her new BF and  he too eventually would be put down.  I wanted more than that out of a partner.  

After 10-15 seconds instead of yelling she asked in a mouse like voice, "AJJ, you there, why are you silent?"

My reply, "That's how you feel is it, in total honesty?"

Hers yelling again, angry, "You no longer meet those emotional needs!"

I replied instantly, calmly and without any emotion.  "I accept that exBPDgf, please for our sons sake though, regulate your emotions, goodbye"

That was on July the 4th, haven't spoken in an emotional tone to her since then, I am better than the dog and the dog didn't deserve to be put down.  


AJJ.  

[myself]

Had a dream about this recently. Simple image, really.

My head was an apple. Hers was an orange.

We were kind of the same, but mostly different.

[Aussie JJ]

To put this into perspective, never ask a pwBPD why?  For mine when she was full blown ripping into me I was accepting everything she was saying about me as true, I was a babbling mess.  I ended up for 3 days straight crying going, why am I like this, what is happening?  They never question themselves as it hurts so much, you have that same pain but your questioning it and working through it.  

Towards the end of the relationship, I would just start crying randomly whenever I was with my ex, she could have been being totally fine, but the tears would just flow out of my eyes and I couldn't even explain why. Its truly horrendous to just start crying at random times without being able to put your finger on why, and not being able to stop yourself, and your ex being totally confused as to why you are crying, did you experience this?

For me the relationship was still real and I was trying to work through problems and fix it all up well before she had left and moved on.  I just didn't understand  When It hit me that it was over in many respects before I decided to try and work through everything 5~ months later and 115 days ago I was a crying mess on the floor for 3 days straight unable to cope with it all because I had been accused of abandoning her and our son and gaslighted into believing I was a bad influence in his life.  I have never been in such a position before where I felt so lost and helpless.  Basically countertransferance, While I was accepting everything she was projecting onto me I was a mess. 

I have said it before and I'll say it again here without any shame, I should have been placed into a mental hospital myself at that point in time I was such a mess. 

[JAC_flgirl]

heeltoheel,

Really he seemed to find the most answers when he knew I was drifting away, but won't accept responsibility enough to allow any real change to stick.  Many times he would cry saying, do you know what if feels like to always feel unlovable... .He at least tried to get answers with his Mother, but she would always deflect blame herself.  I can see the cycle... .

Now one thing in my readings of everyones posts, is that most of the time they leave.  That isn't true in my case.  He has never ever left anyone he's involved with, he just drives them crazy until they leave him.  I did have some slight insight... .I was trying to explain to him someone I had dated.  Explaining the man was a great guy, just not for me.  He could not understand this concept.  He would always go back to, what does just not for me mean? If they were nice to you than why not be with them? He was not capable of understanding that more than a connection is needed to make a relationship work.  I thought, wow.

[bungenstein]

I have said it before and I'll say it again here without any shame, I should have been placed into a mental hospital myself at that point in time I was such a mess.  

Slowly but surely they turn you into them don't they?

Its like the film The Fly, (for those that haven't seen it he goes through a teleporter with a fly, after the incident he slowly starts turning into the fly), but intead of a fly we morphed into a BPD instead, and gradually bits off us started falling off, until we didn't recognise ourselves anymore, until one day, we were crazy aswell.

[fromheeltoheal]

He was not capable of understanding that more than a connection is needed to make a relationship work.  I thought, wow.

Yes, wow is a first step towards accepting the disorder for what it is.  And not only was he incapable of understanding that more of a connection is necessary, he was incapable of forming that connection.  Lots of folks here on the Leaving board, myself included in the beginning, label the borderline evil, callous, cruel, malicious, whatever, and sometimes maybe they are, but when seen in the light that they are literally incapable of connecting on a level that would allow them to perceive the impact their behaviors have on other people, we can eventually develop compassion too, since they never, ever get the benefits of that connection.

And then of course the follow up questions: when it was clear a connection was not being formed, why did we stay?  Did we blame ourselves and try harder?  What can be learned from this?

[JAC_flgirl]

Lots of folks here on the Leaving board, myself included in the beginning, label the borderline evil, callous, cruel, malicious, whatever, and sometimes maybe they are, but when seen in the light that they are literally incapable of connecting on a level that would allow them to perceive the impact their behaviors have on other people, we can eventually develop compassion too, since they never, ever get the benefits of that connection.

I've been guilty of doing this myself.  Makes sense... .as I have asked him many times why he isn't capable of having any compassion for the pain he continues to inflict.  He actually said to me, I don't know what's wrong with me.  I feel like things are not right in my head so much, I just can't help it when I feel like you're backing me into a corner. 

[fromheeltoheal]

He actually said to me, I don't know what's wrong with me.  I feel like things are not right in my head so much, I just can't help it when I feel like you're backing me into a corner. 

That's actually the beginnings of self awareness, and a good thing.  Now the next step would be wanting to do something about it, with professionals involved, but the pain has to be really strong for him to see that as an option, and borderlines have very well developed tools for avoiding that pain. 

But that's them.  Now we're left with the questions What are we going to do about it?  How can we use this?  What's good about this?  How will this serve me moving forward?

[JAC_flgirl]

HeeltoHeel,

At 43 yrs old, I had been closer to him than anyone else had been.  With that being said, if I couldn't get him closer to change than I seriously doubt it will happen EVER.  After I left, he text me and said, maybe I shouldn't need you to stay better but, i just do.  Between this illness and the alcoholism- it was too much for me to handle.  He was like another child! I was willing to watch & be supportive partner, but I can't be the co-dependent forever.  I will always love him, but I had to bow out. 

[fromheeltoheal]

At 43 yrs old, I had been closer to him than anyone else had been.  With that being said, if I couldn't get him closer to change than I seriously doubt it will happen EVER.  After I left, he text me and said, maybe I shouldn't need you to stay better but, i just do.  Between this illness and the alcoholism- it was too much for me to handle.  He was like another child! I was willing to watch & be supportive partner, but I can't be the co-dependent forever.  I will always love him, but I had to bow out. 

Yes, I understand.  It's very difficult to want a partner in a relationship and end up with a dependent.  It's about being in a one-up position to a one-down one: my ex had to be in absolute control of the relationship and me, a perpetual one-up position, or she would crumble and be totally dependent, lose herself.  And that didn't go over very well with me.  At all.  If only she could have been capable of more, we really coulda had somethin... .        But no.

You mention getting him closer to change.  As we know it's extremely difficult to change someone else, and real change only happens when we decide to change ourselves, usually motivated by pain.  Maybe he'll get there, maybe he won't, chances are slim, but kudos for taking care of yourself, again I understand, as difficult as that is.  Sometimes it's best to cut the cord and move on, which is what we're all doing here.  Take care of you!

[Deeno02]

At 43 yrs old, I had been closer to him than anyone else had been.  With that being said, if I couldn't get him closer to change than I seriously doubt it will happen EVER.  After I left, he text me and said, maybe I shouldn't need you to stay better but, i just do.  Between this illness and the alcoholism- it was too much for me to handle.  He was like another child! I was willing to watch & be supportive partner, but I can't be the co-dependent forever.  I will always love him, but I had to bow out. 

Yes, I understand.  It's very difficult to want a partner in a relationship and end up with a dependent.  It's about being in a one-up position to a one-down one: my ex had to be in absolute control of the relationship and me, a perpetual one-up position, or she would crumble and be totally dependent, lose herself.  And that didn't go over very well with me.  At all.  If only she could have been capable of more, we really coulda had somethin... .        But no.

You mention getting him closer to change.  As we know it's extremely difficult to change someone else, and real change only happens when we decide to change ourselves, usually motivated by pain.  Maybe he'll get there, maybe he won't, chances are slim, but kudos for taking care of yourself, again I understand, as difficult as that is.  Sometimes it's best to cut the cord and move on, which is what we're all doing here.  Take care of you!

WOW, she was so independant, but so freaking needy... .good god she was needy.