Hello ... again =]

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi.  I took a bit of a hiatus from posting on the boards.  It was not intentional though.  I had a surgery that ended up being a bit more complicated than anticipated and it wiped me out both physically and emotionally.  In addition, I have another big health issue that I have been dealing with for about 8 years and now it looks like I am in even deeper trouble with it.  I am frustrated because it is the result of a surgery gone bad and it has basically haunted me ever since.  This time around, the doctors I am dealing with are scaring the crap out of me about it and I just want to scream.     They keep telling me what they want to do without taking the time to read every CT or MRI or post-op note in my chart (about 3 inches thick, but still, if you are going to make certain recommendations, especially if they are drastic, take the f-ing time to actaully read my flipping chart dammit!   The sheer arrogance is mind-boggling to me)  I have been hesitant to get in their faces about it though because every time we discuss it, they are using sharp metal pokey cutting implements on me... .and I have been too afraid to piss them off while doing that.  I will be seeing one doc in particular on Tuesday and I am going to insist he listen to me *before* he starts filleting me!     Wish me luck please.

I also had resolution to my financial dilemma, which is wonderful, but is now a promise for the somewhat near future, which is way better than hovering on the brink of losing my home so that is a plus, but the stress of the immediate and continuing inability to pay my mortgage is still hanging over me.  Who knew my mortgage company does not accept credit cards?  Normally I would not even consider paying my bills with a credit card, but I know that money is coming so I figured I would just suck it up and pay it off in one shot and just deal with the interest charge.  So I have borrowed money from my brother for the time being.  Again, I normally would never do such a thing, but I know it is short term and I will be able to pay it off very soon.  I just do not like being dependent and needy.  A bit more on that later though.  Prior to my break from the boards, I had anticipated that I would be cutting down on posting, but not to this extent.  I really need this place whether I am posting on my own threads or in response to others.

One of the issues I did a thread on a couple of months ago was about an acquaintance that was far too clingy and needy and triggered me terribly.  I received wonderful advice and support here that helped me to see that I was not being horrible for wanting space and not feeling comfortable with the degree of contact this other person wanted from me.  I was able to see and accept that my past has shaped who I am today and how I function and that it is okay.  So this person would send me facebook messages and, as I was not online very much at all for the past month or so, I did not see or respond to them.  Last night I happened to log in and I changed my picture to a Christmas one.  She apparently was online and saw it, and posted something like "Oh Honey, are you okay?  I understand you are mad at me and I just wish i knew what i did wrong".  I then read the messages she has left for me during my absence and they bugged me (and I had told her earlier that I was going to be very busy and not online much, etc to try nicely to get her to back off).  A silly picture of a goat asking if I thought it was cute, a couple asking me if I was okay and was I angry with her, etc.  ACK, ACK, ACK, ACK ACK!  I deleted her post to my wall as I keep facebook strictly for light impersonal stuff and to play one silly game.

This morning I decided to write to her and let her know that I did not appreciate her posting her personal issues with me on my wall and therefore deleted it.  I also want out of the whole friendship (only went for coffee 3 times and one other outing... .hardly a friendship) and I said "Given how you have responded to my absence on facebook, I think it is best if we just stop any contact.  I do not see my behavior changing any time soon and I do not want to see you hurt when i am simply taking time and space for me.  My need for those things had nothing to do with you.  It seems like my need for privacy and space is in direct conflict with your own needs and again,  I do not want to hurt you."

She responded by saying "Sorry for caring about a sweet person.  I guess I misread you. Again, sorry."  <SIGHS>  so I wrote "There is no bad guy in this situation and I do not appreciate your attempt to paint me that way.  Take good care."  I got this in response:  "You really ate a drama queen. Good bye!"     My response was to say:  "If it makes you feel better to see me that way, that is okay.  Again, take care.  I wish you nothing but the best."  (I will admit to a childish urge to focus on her typo... .oh the things I could say in response to that!   )  I think it might have been better if I had just not replied to her replies.  Haha, at 49, I am still learning.

That (the whole 'it is okay for you to be angry with me' thing) was exactly the stance I had to take with my family (though to a much higher degree with the FOO).  I am okay with it but I am sad that it has come to that (while being so grateful that I listened to my gut about her and got some help for you all here).  Through this interaction, I have been able to see that I still carry some guilt for standing up for and protecting me back when my parents were alive.  I am not sure that the guilt will ever go away completely, but at least I am not cringing away from the feelings and trying to talk myself out of the guilt any more.  It is what it is whether it makes sense or not.  I am also saddened with the realization that my childhood and even my adulthood will be forever tinged by the extreme dysfunction of my FOO.  There is no fix or cure, there are just ways to work it through.  As I write this, I am not okay with that truth, but I will be.  Just have to sit with it for a bit.

Okay, so I mentioned that I have a hard time being needy and dependent.  I stopped working due to health issues in march 2013.  Previously, I had had major complications from a surgery that forced me to miss about 8 months of work and then I was only able to work part-time for another year or so.  That wiped out my savings, but I was to support myself able to get back on my feet after moving in with my father for a short time.  I was re-building but this last 19 months or so has again wiped out my savings.  I was recently approved for permanent disability so it is a matter of waiting for the check.  In the meantime though, I have to resort to borrowing money (I could sell my car but then how would I get to doctors appointments, etc?  I do not go out otherwise and have dropped my cable, cell phone and downgraded my internet ( :'( <---   ) cut my groceries down, reduced electric and gas bills (thank god we had a cool summer and so far warm winter!), rented out the spare room for a bit (arghhhh!) ... .etc. etc. etc... .

And all those explanations of what I have done to save money are because I feel shame and I am very very defensive about it all.  After the botched surgery that started all this trouble several years back, I still worked while having large holes in my incision line, multiple drains and bags hanging off my boy, pain up the wazoo,.  Granted, I was only working part time and was sick but I still worked and I loved it.  I look back now and realize i was crazy and I probably pushed myself too hard and that is in part why I am in the position I am today.

And I have realized that I was looking at my career as a huge defining point for me.  I loved the work i chose.  My career paid well, I had excellent benefits and life was good... .until it changed.  You always hear about those people who are just one pay-check away from disaster... .I do not talk much about my situation because I have heard and read far too many comments regarding other people in my situation where they say "you should have planned better so it is your own fault" and "that will never happen to me as I have saved for my retirement"... .and I want to get in their faces and ask them if it is enough to cover the bills for several years with no or very little pay coming in.  I take pride in the fact that I have managed this time around with zero balance on two credit cards and just $600.00 on another... .and the money i borrowed from my brother.  Thank god my brother likes me and loves me even after my mother did her best to pit us against each other.  Take that you b*tch!   

Okay, so this is crazy long and has no clear purpose other than to get this crap out of my system.  If you have read this far, I appreciate it and if you decided tl;dr, I do not blame you a bit though you would not be reading this bit, so why do I write it?  Ahhh... .the crazy way my mind works.

Oh yeah... .I also got some insight to another thread I did where I was taking about embracing my past but not wanting it to define me.  My insight is simple and perhaps obvious, but it was hard to get there.  here it is:  My past does not define me, but it does help me understand me.

[Harri]

Hi.  I took a bit of a hiatus from posting on the boards.  It was not intentional though.  I had a surgery that ended up being a bit more complicated than anticipated and it wiped me out both physically and emotionally.  In addition, I have another big health issue that I have been dealing with for about 8 years and now it looks like I am in even deeper trouble with it.  I am frustrated because it is the result of a surgery gone bad and it has basically haunted me ever since.  This time around, the doctors I am dealing with are scaring the crap out of me about it and I just want to scream.     They keep telling me what they want to do without taking the time to read every CT or MRI or post-op note in my chart (about 3 inches thick, but still, if you are going to make certain recommendations, especially if they are drastic, take the f-ing time to actaully read my flipping chart dammit!   The sheer arrogance is mind-boggling to me)  I have been hesitant to get in their faces about it though because every time we discuss it, they are using sharp metal pokey cutting implements on me... .and I have been too afraid to piss them off while doing that.  I will be seeing one doc in particular on Tuesday and I am going to insist he listen to me *before* he starts filleting me!     Wish me luck please.

I also had resolution to my financial dilemma, which is wonderful, but is now a promise for the somewhat near future, which is way better than hovering on the brink of losing my home so that is a plus, but the stress of the immediate and continuing inability to pay my mortgage is still hanging over me.  Who knew my mortgage company does not accept credit cards?  Normally I would not even consider paying my bills with a credit card, but I know that money is coming so I figured I would just suck it up and pay it off in one shot and just deal with the interest charge.  So I have borrowed money from my brother for the time being.  Again, I normally would never do such a thing, but I know it is short term and I will be able to pay it off very soon.  I just do not like being dependent and needy.  A bit more on that later though.  Prior to my break from the boards, I had anticipated that I would be cutting down on posting, but not to this extent.  I really need this place whether I am posting on my own threads or in response to others.

One of the issues I did a thread on a couple of months ago was about an acquaintance that was far too clingy and needy and triggered me terribly.  I received wonderful advice and support here that helped me to see that I was not being horrible for wanting space and not feeling comfortable with the degree of contact this other person wanted from me.  I was able to see and accept that my past has shaped who I am today and how I function and that it is okay.  So this person would send me facebook messages and, as I was not online very much at all for the past month or so, I did not see or respond to them.  Last night I happened to log in and I changed my picture to a Christmas one.  She apparently was online and saw it, and posted something like "Oh Honey, are you okay?  I understand you are mad at me and I just wish i knew what i did wrong".  I then read the messages she has left for me during my absence and they bugged me (and I had told her earlier that I was going to be very busy and not online much, etc to try nicely to get her to back off).  A silly picture of a goat asking if I thought it was cute, a couple asking me if I was okay and was I angry with her, etc.  ACK, ACK, ACK, ACK ACK!  I deleted her post to my wall as I keep facebook strictly for light impersonal stuff and to play one silly game.

This morning I decided to write to her and let her know that I did not appreciate her posting her personal issues with me on my wall and therefore deleted it.  I also want out of the whole friendship (only went for coffee 3 times and one other outing... .hardly a friendship) and I said "Given how you have responded to my absence on facebook, I think it is best if we just stop any contact.  I do not see my behavior changing any time soon and I do not want to see you hurt when i am simply taking time and space for me.  My need for those things had nothing to do with you.  It seems like my need for privacy and space is in direct conflict with your own needs and again,  I do not want to hurt you."

She responded by saying "Sorry for caring about a sweet person.  I guess I misread you. Again, sorry."  <SIGHS>  so I wrote "There is no bad guy in this situation and I do not appreciate your attempt to paint me that way.  Take good care."  I got this in response:  "You really ate a drama queen. Good bye!"     My response was to say:  "If it makes you feel better to see me that way, that is okay.  Again, take care.  I wish you nothing but the best."  (I will admit to a childish urge to focus on her typo... .oh the things I could say in response to that!   )  I think it might have been better if I had just not replied to her replies.  Haha, at 49, I am still learning.

That (the whole 'it is okay for you to be angry with me' thing) was exactly the stance I had to take with my family (though to a much higher degree with the FOO).  I am okay with it but I am sad that it has come to that (while being so grateful that I listened to my gut about her and got some help for you all here).  Through this interaction, I have been able to see that I still carry some guilt for standing up for and protecting me back when my parents were alive.  I am not sure that the guilt will ever go away completely, but at least I am not cringing away from the feelings and trying to talk myself out of the guilt any more.  It is what it is whether it makes sense or not.  I am also saddened with the realization that my childhood and even my adulthood will be forever tinged by the extreme dysfunction of my FOO.  There is no fix or cure, there are just ways to work it through.  As I write this, I am not okay with that truth, but I will be.  Just have to sit with it for a bit.

Okay, so I mentioned that I have a hard time being needy and dependent.  I stopped working due to health issues in march 2013.  Previously, I had had major complications from a surgery that forced me to miss about 8 months of work and then I was only able to work part-time for another year or so.  That wiped out my savings, but I was to support myself able to get back on my feet after moving in with my father for a short time.  I was re-building but this last 19 months or so has again wiped out my savings.  I was recently approved for permanent disability so it is a matter of waiting for the check.  In the meantime though, I have to resort to borrowing money (I could sell my car but then how would I get to doctors appointments, etc?  I do not go out otherwise and have dropped my cable, cell phone and downgraded my internet ( :'( <---   ) cut my groceries down, reduced electric and gas bills (thank god we had a cool summer and so far warm winter!), rented out the spare room for a bit (arghhhh!) ... .etc. etc. etc... .

And all those explanations of what I have done to save money are because I feel shame and I am very very defensive about it all.  After the botched surgery that started all this trouble several years back, I still worked while having large holes in my incision line, multiple drains and bags hanging off my boy, pain up the wazoo,.  Granted, I was only working part time and was sick but I still worked and I loved it.  I look back now and realize i was crazy and I probably pushed myself too hard and that is in part why I am in the position I am today.

And I have realized that I was looking at my career as a huge defining point for me.  I loved the work i chose.  My career paid well, I had excellent benefits and life was good... .until it changed.  You always hear about those people who are just one pay-check away from disaster... .I do not talk much about my situation because I have heard and read far too many comments regarding other people in my situation where they say "you should have planned better so it is your own fault" and "that will never happen to me as I have saved for my retirement"... .and I want to get in their faces and ask them if it is enough to cover the bills for several years with no or very little pay coming in.  I take pride in the fact that I have managed this time around with zero balance on two credit cards and just $600.00 on another... .and the money i borrowed from my brother.  Thank god my brother likes me and loves me even after my mother did her best to pit us against each other.  Take that you b*tch!   

Okay, so this is crazy long and has no clear purpose other than to get this crap out of my system.  If you have read this far, I appreciate it and if you decided tl;dr, I do not blame you a bit though you would not be reading this bit, so why do I write it?  Ahhh... .the crazy way my mind works.

Oh yeah... .I also got some insight to another thread I did where I was taking about embracing my past but not wanting it to define me.  My insight is simple and perhaps obvious, but it was hard to get there.  here it is:  My past does not define me, but it does help me understand me.

[Harri]

so, I have been thinking about my conversation with my 'friend' that I outlined above.  I am not happy with the way I handled things.  I am not beating myself up (an improvement for me), but I am disappointed.  I did respond to her comment about "I guess I misread you" because I took it personally.  As a result I played into her game and then stooped to her level and became the very thing i despise---> passive aggressive by saying "if it makes you feel better... ." It would have been better if I just said that in my head

Ugh. 

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Harri! 

Good to see you back online!   I wondered what had happened to you. Sounds like you've had your share of trials. You just keep going forward-good for you! 

I think it's great that you stepped away from that relationship which really does seem unhealthy. You don't need another one of those in your life. Way to go, learning and growing and making such progress! It's okay if it didn't come out exactly as you preferred, for the important thing is to look at how far you've come and all the improvement you've made at becoming so much more aware.

Hang in there and keep us updated! 

Wools

[Turkish]

Hi Harri,

I'm glad to see you back as well. I'm sorry you are dealing with what sound like tough health issues. "Talk softly and carry a bug scalpel," oh wait, that's them! Nothing wrong with advocating for yourself. My mom's an RN, and I've heard so many stories over the years about the health profession. There are a lot of wonderful professionals, but also some who should never have been in the profession. It's your life here.

Reading your FB interaction, it sounds like a bit of JADE on your part, if you'll allow me to be blunt. However, her posts sound pretty immature (got your goat? Really?), and I'd delete them too. ":)rama queen," sounds like some projection going on there. It's good that you asserted your boundaries. There are 3.5 billion other women on the planet, and about an equal number of men. Surely there are at least a few dozen who might make healthier friends.

Lastly, it's great that your brother was able to help you out,.and more importantly that you reached out. It sounds like you've got the financial plan worked out, and hopefully the gubmint comes through soon.

I also hate asking for help in any form, though I have no problem helping others. It's hard to reset our mindset, but it's possible. We're survivors.

[Harri]

Hi Wools and Turkish!  Thanks for the replies.

Wools, your words both comfort me and encourage me so thank you.  I have been going mostly forward but have spun around in place a couple of times too, haha- circling the drain is not a good feeling at all =] .  Thanks for the reminder that perfection is not the goal.   

Turkish, thank you!  I can see the (J)ADE'ing I did thanks to your pointing it out to me.  I did avoid defend and explain myself.  I am not sure I justified myself *to her*, though if I did and you see it, please let me know so I can learn. 

I got angry last night, very angry once the whole situation with this lady sunk in.  She just had to make this nasty and make me the bad guy and that pisses me off.  Why can't it just be a situation where two people have conflicting styles and needs rather one of us being the bad guy?  Arrrrgh!  I am quite sure she is a wonderful friend to those people who do not have the same quirks and issues I have and I have to keep reminding myself that that does not make me wrong or bad.  It is a struggle to take what I learned (that I am the way I am and I can't deny my past and how it has influenced who I am today) and apply it to this part of the situation.  It is interesting to me that I have to re-learn the very same truth when the situation changes and I am then dealing with someone who is angry with me.  More to work on and that's okay (it has to be okay).  So who here wants to be my friend, hit some of my buttons and push me away and then get mad at me so I can practice this?   

The drama queen bit made me laugh as I did see it as a projection but I had to reel in my knee-jerk reaction where I wanted to respond in a nasty/mocking way.  <sighs>  That level and type of reaction from me is, unfortunately, nothing new.   I have learned over time to step back from it and not say it and then remind myself that people get to be who they are without me getting nasty about it--- I can choose how to respond rather than react... .but seeing me have to struggle to hold back with a knee-jerk reaction to *this* relatively minor situation is sobering.  Clearly I am feeling defensive and am repressing a lot of anger (and not just about this situation).  Ugh. 

Turkish, what you said about my financial situation means a lot to me.  It is not easy for me to admit/acknowledge the position I am in, even here where no one knows me.  I have randomly thrown comments in here and there in some of my posts to try to get used to talking about it and as an attempt to reduce the sense of shame I feel so I can work on this.  And yes, I hope the gubmint  comes through soon too.   In the meantime, I do have my brother who can help.  I love him and like him but sometimes he makes me crazy.  He is one of the people who used to be nasty to me about my finances (back when I had to move in with my dad) and he had accused me of taking advantage of my father when I moved in, so the fact that I could go to him and ask for help and he has done so without much judgement is very telling of the healing that has taken place between us since our parents are out of the picture.  That makes me happy so thanks again Turkish for pointing that out here. 

[Woolspinner2000]

Harri,

I cannot resist responding to your comment below: 

I have been going mostly forward but have spun around in place a couple of times too, haha- circling the drain is not a good feeling at all =]

If you are circling the drain, just be sure to wear skis. 

Wools

[Ziggiddy]

Harri - so great to see you back! I am really sorry you are in a situation where your health  and your wealth are less than ideal and because I like you so much I am going to be that friend who hits your buttons and challenges you! <Checks for spelling errors   >

First, your friend sounded selfish to me. And hello narcissistic sarcastic sounding apology (fauxpology)

"Sorry for caring about a sweet person.  I guess I misread you. Again, sorry."

"Well sorreee" she is saying. These are my NPD/BPDm's forte. Pretending to apologise whilst blaming you for what they have done wrong.

Allow me to expand. A genuine apology has these components - regret at personal actions which cause conflict/disturbance/pain.

Remorse for causing those things. Reparations or gestures which mitigate those things.

it sounds like this: "Harri i am sorry for being a git and getting too much in your space. I didn't mean to do that. I like you and I want what's best for you. I respect that we see the world differently and that your views are just as important as mine.

I will give you some space because you are entitled to have your needs met.

I hope you feel better soon. If you want to catch up sometime do let me know. Meanwhile if ther eis anything I can do to help you please do let me know.

Sincerely I'mNotaGit"

You were not being triggered because you have issues, you were being annoyed at someone who was disrespecting you even though you were very clear and much more polite than some others may have been.

If you are mad at yourself for that, well that's okay too because guess what? you are entitled to every one of your feelings.

Until you are able to learn that sometimes, oftentimes the other person is very much at fault you will repeat that compulsion. It's ok. I hope you can see it as a compulsion and not at all a reflection on your true worth nor even part of your genuine toolbox of behaviours.

It takes TIME. you've had 49 years to have those responses conditioned into the very fabric of your being. How is that POSSIBLY your fault? You learned it whilst learning to walk & talk.

That (the whole 'it is okay for you to be angry with me' thing) was exactly the stance I had to take with my family (though to a much higher degree with the FOO).

You HAD to learn it. it was your very survival at stake! I am so impressed that you found such an effective way of making it out of your childhood alive and with enough perspective to be awakened to it in time to learn new skills.

That takes humility. And strength, courage and vision. Instead of haranguing yourself for being so resourceful, perhaps you could notice that it was an incredibly difficult thing to do but you did it anyway!.

I wonder if you might see that easier in the 3rd person. imagine it all happening to someone you love, admire and respect. Would you criticise them for what you have had to do the way you condemn yourself? Somehow your self compassion has dwindled. You owe it to that little kid to pay credit where credit is due.

   Okay, so I mentioned that I have a hard time being needy and dependent. 

I will challenge your definition of needy and dependent. You are in the human race! We are not meant to live in an island/social vacuum state. Some people, many people welcome the opportunity to share in life's riches. Think about this - when you help someone out, do you sneer and think "You should have got it together, man! i hold you in such contempt for having unexpected occurrence and needing help."? Or do you think "You poor soul. I'm sorry you are in need. Here, allow me the gift of helping you. Let me share life's riches with you"? As in all things - balance. Give and take is a natural state of human beings.

And all those explanations of what I have done to save money are because I feel shame and I am very very defensive about it all.

I wonder who taught you it was shameful to be human? Is it truly your voice or the work of the inner critic masquerading as your voice?

I have heard and read far too many comments regarding other people in my situation where they say "you should have planned better so it is your own fault" and "that will never happen to me as I have saved for my retirement"

.

There's a term for people who display this kind of attitude. That term is smarmy git. And they are wholly disconnected with reality. Seriously. I will challenge you on how worthwhile it is to pay attention to people who think this is an acceptable way to speak.

In the meantime I do wish you luck and I am glad you are learning to trust your brother more fully. it may remind you heart that you can trust YOU more fully!

Ziggiddy

[Harri]

   Wools, thanks for the imagery!  Love it.     Next time I feel like that I am going to think of what you said here... .and maybe wear some scuba gear along with my skis!

Zig, oh boy.  Challenge accepted!  (and thank you for pressing my buttons... .you hit on a quite a few! Once again I am reminded that as angry and as hurt as it makes me, I am far more comfortable with people who dislike me than I am with people who express kindness and generosity.)  I am both pleased and honored to have you as a friend here.  Thank you.

Until you are able to learn that sometimes, oftentimes the other person is very much at fault you will repeat that compulsion. It's ok. I hope you can see it as a compulsion and not at all a reflection on your true worth nor even part of your genuine toolbox of behaviours.

Okay.  But how do I *know* when it is the other persons fault and not take the blame or is it more a matter of accepting that we both played a part?  I want to say I am pretty good at recognizing my faults and contributions to conflict, but I can't really say that.  Yes, I can take responsibility for my own words and actions, but I usually do it to an extreme and make myself a martyr (I would say this is where my in-acting BPD traits come into play).  So I struggle with two things here; recognizing and acknowledging the other persons part in the conflict AND trying to find balance in looking at my own role.  I have noticed a pattern to my behavior when conflict occurs--->  I accept and own my part (usually to a fault and I throw *myself* under the bus) and I apologize and try to make amends and fix whatever I can.  After a while, I get angry and pissed because the person I did this with (my family, my ex, most of my 'friends' over the years) fails to see their part and own their own stuff or at least we never talk about it and I certainly almost never hear an apology.  It seems like they use my openness and willingness to take responsibility as something to hide behind... .and it pisses me off to no end.  I have yet to find someone who does not do this (not even the couple of people I do consider a close friend... .i have just learned not to go there with them as I want them in my life).  When i get like this, I close myself off from this person.  I want to learn not to do that... .and I want to know it NOW!   

Ugh... .babbling here.

Zig, the rest of your response here opened my eyes to a kinder gentler way to look at myself and my behaviors.  I don't have the words to say what I want to say.  My chest feels tight and my breath catches and I hurt inside... .I am scared to embrace what you have written here.  You have shown me what self acceptance and self care looks and sounds like and it hurts in a good way.  The examples you gave here are so very important to me.  See, I can talk about acceptance and love and compassion for other people and I mean every bit of it, but I have such a rudimentary idea of what these things look and sound like and I am afraid of making a mistake.  I fear becoming arrogant and oblivious in my ignorance.  But I can build off of the examples you wrote here.  (Sometimes I wish there were posts stickied to the top of the page that list out examples so I can refer to them quickly and easily.) 

Thank you for the acceptance, understanding, validation and encouragement.     I am sure there is more that I should be responding to here, but I can't right now.  I will however, keep poking.  This is going to require some patience because every time I poke, I cringe inside and squint my eyes which makes it hard to see. 

PS  I have now incorporated 'smarmy git' into my vocabulary.   I have a feeling it sounds much better with an Australian accent though.   

[cleotokos]

Hi Harri, I don't have much to say other than to let you know I read your post. We're all here for you, I know how good it feels to get your thoughts down just for the sake of it 

[Harri]

Hi there CleoT!  Yes, this place is wonderful!  I love the feedback and support and thank you for reading me. 

[Ziggiddy]

Okay.  But how do I *know* when it is the other persons fault and not take the blame or is it more a matter of accepting that we both played a part?

Harri it may be very very hard for you to accept but sometimes some things are COMPLETELY the other person's fault and you are completely blameless. Quantam leap I know. If you have had a read of the survivor's guide or any similar literature part of our development is dependent upon acknowledging that none yes NONE of it was our fault.

A long time ago I came across the case of a little kid whose mum had broken his arm. he insisted it was his fault because he was so bad. Do you believe he was partly responsible? The case worker told him that there was nothing NOTHING no bad thing he could possibly do that would deserve to have his arm broken. I will contend with  you that you are have instincts which may have been blurred or cognitively distorted but that work nonetheless.

How will you know when it is the other person's fault? You'll know. if you don't reason it away. How do you not take the blame?

Hm good question. Maybe by thinking of yourself as the other person? How would YOU act if you were the other person? Whose fault would it be then?

[Wintersun]

Harri! I'm so happy to see you back here. I'd wondered how your surgery had gone and had hoped all was well. I'm glad you took time to recover but sorry to hear that you have to face further health struggles. At least you have not lost your sense of humor ("I will be seeing one doc in particular on Tuesday and I am going to insist he listen to me *before* he starts filleting me!" !).

I know you probably don't want to even think about a legal battle, but from what you described it sounds like you are owed compensation for this medical error. Your doctors screwed up pretty badly and that their surgical error has really affected your quality of life. Have you considered a malpractice lawsuit?

I can hear that you really dislike having to ask for/accept help. I think that's totally understandable given what many of us have faced with our family members. In my own experience, any vulnerability was grounds for attack (for ex.,  it created an opportunity  to be characterized as "weak". You may also have a reflex against accepting gifts or help since, at least with Queens, accepting such things later confers expectations (for ex. "I did x for you, now you must submit to my every demand". I think you mentioned your mom had strong Queen traits. So this reluctance to accept help seem understandable. I really like Ziggity's suggestion for a kinder, gentler approach to yourself. I think I should think about implementing this advice too!

I honestly didn't think your response to Ms. Clingy was bad at all. You stood up for yourself and your needs and you did so in a kind, loving way (ex., reassuring her that your desire to step away was not a criticism of her). Unfortunately, she could not accept your needs and descended into childishness. This sounds like someone who has a lot of work to do on themselves. Best to part ways and leave her to her own journey. I'm happy that you did what you needed to do to take care of yourself. Good on you.

Take good care, my friend. I am so glad you're back here. 

[Ziggiddy]

I can hear that you really dislike having to ask for/accept help. I think that's totally understandable given what many of us have faced with our family members. In my own experience, any vulnerability was grounds for attack (for ex.,  it created an opportunity  to be characterized as "weak". You may also have a reflex against accepting gifts or help since, at least with Queens, accepting such things later confers expectations (for ex. "I did x for you, now you must submit to my every demand". I think you mentioned your mom had strong Queen traits. So this reluctance to accept help seem understandable.

Oh Em gee, Wintersun! This^!  You have just helped me a great deal.

What a helpful bit o insight

[Woolspinner2000]

... .sometimes some things are COMPLETELY the other person's fault and you are completely blameless. Quantam leap I know. If you have had a read of the survivor's guide or any similar literature part of our development is dependent upon acknowledging that none yes NONE of it was our fault.

Ziggiddy,

I've been thinking about what you said, that sometimes NONE of it was our fault, all this week. Mind stretching for me, totally so, even as you suggested it might be.

How can such a concept be? It is so deeply ingrained. My mind says that surely I contributed, yet at the same time it also says what did I do to bring about such treatment? I have no idea. The assumption within (because of our instinctual need to right the uneveness of our world as a child) says I must've done something wrong or else I wouldn't be treated this way.

I've been wondering this week at what point do we become responsible for our choices? if as a child it was not our fault yet now we are adults, when is that magic time that we DO become responsible for our choices? For me and I would imagine many if not most survivors, we were unaware of how our past influenced our adult choices until the  came on for us and we began to discover that we do have choices.

Perhaps I'm only part way through the step of the Survivors Guide which says "I accept that I was powerless over my abusers' actions... ." but not yet through the part which would say that it wasn't my fault. I think that must come next.

Wools

[Harri]

Hi Ziggiddy.  I hear the words and I can say them and I can accept on an intellectual level that I was not to blame.  I just don't *feel* that I am free of blame, not completely.  I have accepted that my past happened but like Wools, the belief that I am to blame, at least in part, is so ingrained I am unsure how to change it.  I started to write that holding onto the belief that I am to blame gives me control, because if I caused it I can change/fix it.  In another thread, Justnothing pointed out the difference between responsibility and blame and I definitely think the two are all mixed up in my head.  I can be responsible for changing me today without blaming myself for the past.  Very hard to wrap my head around that.  

How will you know when it is the other person's fault? You'll know. if you don't reason it away. How do you not take the blame?

Hm good question. Maybe by thinking of yourself as the other person? How would YOU act if you were the other person? Whose fault would it be then?

Thank you... .and UGH.  I have gotten a bit better about listening to my quiet inner voice and not dismissing the insight/knowledge but I still need to work on it.  I think your suggestion to put myself in the other person's shoes is an excellent idea though there are so many things that just do not bother me but are upsetting to others (and the other way around too)... .and here I go complicating things!     

Hello Wintersun!  Thank you.  It is good to see you here too.    You are right about being vulnerable to attack when exposing a weakness.  It becomes an opportunity to mock and belittle me and was used as a weapon.  I had forgotten that that often happened with my mother, so thank you for helping me find that missing piece.  I am sorry you have personal experience with this too.  

Regarding the compensation for the botched surgery and complications... .I am unsure.  I never wanted to as accidents do happen but this has definitely impacted my life in a huge way.  I found out yesterday that the damage is far more extensive than I thought which has serious implications for any future surgeries (which I am almost certain to need given the disease I have).  It also means that the surgery that the doctors have been saying I need given the 'do or die' current situation is not an option.    I am not at all upset about that as it is not a surgery I wanted but... . I don't know.  I keep getting stuck at the but.    Ugh.  Just need time to think and process.  I am sure there is a time  limit for such things as well.    

Sorry if my replies seem distracted and disjointed.  I am so focused on all things medical right now that being coherent and examining my own issues here is frustrating as hell.  I can't find my words.  Gimme my words dammit!  Okay, enough whining for today!

Thanks again.  

[Ziggiddy]

Ah blame. it's such an interesting word.

I will speak of clarinets and ... .no hang on - wrong forum!

Seriously let's talk brain hardware. And neuroplasticity.

Our beliefs are mixed with our emotions are mixed with our cognitive thought.

The single most effective way to learn something is to have all those parts of our selves engaged during the learning process.

So, here we are little kids looking up with wide eyed wonder at our shining beautiful parents who are whispering, shouting, toning "This is your fault. You are solely to blame."

So our limbic system knits that into our belief system with the forehead slapping moment - yes! Of course! I am to blame!

And the neural network forms.

And then the next thing happens - yes yes I am to blame for that. And that. And oh just everything.

And the neural network thickens and the synaptic activity gets more efficient engraving that belief onto our mind. Stamping our soul.

So now i come to my middle age, discover the height and depth and width of the dysfunction yet I start overturning these cherished beliefs.

Golden idyllic childhood? No. belief changed - with time, reason and application of REASON.

And so on.

Please, Harri, Wools, all of us, please PLEASE keep in mind that the abuse you and I suffered DAMAGED OUR LIMBIC  SYSTEM.

If it's hard to believe it's NOT YOUR FAULT it's a matter of the lack of firing in your synapses because how could it POSSIBLY be your fault?

i will use again and again the example of the 3rd person.

If you saw a mother break a child's arm would you  conclude that that child is even partly to blame?

What if the child broke something? Lost something valuable? Put someone else in danger?

Would that be enough reason? What if the child was unkind to the cat? Or the child punched the mother? Would that justify it?

NO!

A policeman would not even be justified to break the arm of a murderer they have caught without going up on CRIMINAL charges.

Because it is WRONG.

Now you can see it rationally but you can't FEEL it. I get that. I have some problems with it too. But I keep on whittling away at the neural pathway because I am in some kind of conflict and my HEAD tells me it can't be my fault. Now I will train my heart, and brush out my synapses and I hope to one day get the full  moment where my feelings match my heart.

Because my brain was never trained that way as a child. But now I know the brain can change, the hardware can be mended by CHANGING MY MIND! How awesome is THAT?

And I know one day, soon that penny gonna drop and I am going to yell I GET IT!

i sincerely hope you guys do too.

[Woolspinner2000]

Ah Z,

That's a very understandable and heart felt reply! 

Reading and understanding what you said gives me space and takes the pressure off for it helps one to see that this process takes time, that there is a reason why it is so difficult to comprehend, and that with time and continued work and effort, we will get there. Thank you for taking the time to answer so well.

Did you know that neurons are probably the slowest growing cell to repair itself in the body? When one has a physical injury to the nerves in the body and there is only numbness or lack of feeling, the nerves can often re-grow but it takes time. Within the brain, those new pathways can be formed (which may be quicker in our situation), but isn't it an interesting comparison? The lack of feeling and numbness is literally what BPD survivors experience too. We have to give them time to grow.

Wools

[Ziggiddy]

hahaa just reread what I wrote. What a lot of shouty words and impassioned pleas!

And exclamation points!

No I did not know that Wools, about the slow growth of neurons. It makes sense though.

I read  about neuroplasticity last year and was amazed at the things people learned to accomplish even though they had literally parts of their brains missing.

Other locations would take over tasks and neural function would be lost in a different area. That is good news for so many reasons but especially (IMO) that the emotional damage can be repaired by simply being exposed to new information repeatedly and making a choice to change. I LOVE the brain!

i am also very struck by what you said about the numbness. Of course! <slaps forehead> that is so logical and simple and obvious but I didn't look at it like that before.

Once you sustain a psychological injury, of course there would be resultant numbness.

That is a relieving thought 

[Harri]

   I like the impassioned pleas, shouty words and exclamation points!  I could almost picture you jumping up and down and yelling GET SOME NEW NEURAL NETWORKS!

And I realize how right you are and how right Wools is.  It will take time, but it can be done.  It already has for some things.  I think part of my learning system is broken too.  I can't seem to take lessons learned and apply them to other situations, even more lateral ones never mind bigger ones.  The shame and humiliation is still there, deep down and I have to go back for each incident as I remember it.  Maybe as the new networks get stronger, I will be able to apply lessons learned to other situations.

It makes sense that my feelings will follow as I change my beliefs and behaviors and If I can apply that for other situations, I can darn well do it here too.

Wools and Zig, thanks for the new perspectives and for the hope that someday I won't have to wrestle so much with the shame and humiliation.