I'm in this. Recommitted after blow up.

[girlyju]

Hi, I'm happy to have found this group. I am married to a man afflicted with BPD. I myself am afflicted with Bipolar and PTSD. It sometimes makes for funtimes in my home. Due to these "funtimes" I've begun researching DBT. I joined a group. I'm making connections. I am beginning to understand my role, as the spouse, a bit better. I have a long road ahead, but I do love this man and I pledge to stop making things worse. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

  girlyju!

Are you looking into DBT for yourself, your husband, or both?

Can you be more specific about one kind of "fun times" are you looking to change?

 GK

[Rapt Reader]

Hello, girlyju & 

Gee, I'm really impressed with your attitude! You have a problem, you researched it, you're getting help to remedy your own part in the dysfunction, and you are committed to helping your husband come along for the ride... .That is so cool 

I'm really glad you found us, too, and I'd like to encourage you to add to your toolbox of communication skills by checking out every single link to the right-hand side of this page, and invite you to check out the Feature Articles linked to under the 4 photos lined up over the thread listings on this Board. And continue to post here, tell your story, and ask any questions that come up... .We're here 24/7 and would love to get to know you better, girlyju 

P.S. Greykitty's question intrigues me, too

[girlyju]

hi rapt and grey,

i am learning dbt for myself and for my dh. there are no therapists where im at but i'm making use of some great tools online.

funtimes? o goodness, where to begin... .we are a high conflict couple, i've now learned. in the past have not been able to regulate myself much less help him. we argue, attempt to prove the other is crazier and at times it ends violently.

for the past several months i think i've been better about using techniques to regulate myself and in many instances have not gotten drawn into the battle... .i think it's been helpful because now he can see his own mi with better clarity and he's only recently admitted to having mi.

a few days ago we had a big blow up... .that ended violently. i dont want to be naive or a battered wife by any means... .and i really thought thats it, i was done. thats really when i began pouring myself into understanding BPD better. it became clear to me that the violence was a predictable outcome given the circumstances. he yelled at me to leave him alone and i reacted by getting louder, kept at him, followed him from room to room... .until he began raging.

understanding changes everything. i understand that i was dysregulated, and also understand that he has limitations. i understand that he and i both need a safety plan. that he and i both need dbt training and skills.

i understand what he's going thru, what it must be like for him, because i imagine it's like my ptsd but all the time for him. i understand also that he loves me and likely me yelling at him (judging him) was unbearable for him. i understand he craves my acceptance but very rarely allows himself to be vulnerable enuf to receive it.

none of that excuses his behavior, of course. he hurt me physically. yelling isnt breaking the law, what he did is... .but what i did to him was just as painful to him.

i do not think i am being naive about this. in fact i think i am in wise mind and more mindful than i've ever been. i think it's important to use this time of harmony between us to practice scenarios that will aid us when we inevitably lose it again.

we will make it, he and i. mi won't kill me and it won't kill him either. i won't let it.

[Grey Kitty]

Your own understanding of your role in this is a HUGE thing in your favor.

Learning dbt for yourself sounds excellent too. 

One of the most important things is to realize that once someone is dysregulated, nothing good is going to happen. The best outcome at that point is getting some separation and space.

His yelling at you to leave him alone is actually a good sign. Many pwBPD are the ones chasing their partner from room to room.

If it isn't clear to you already... .when he is like that, LET HIM GO AWAY! The outcome may not be good, but it will be better for you, your husband, and your marriage.


If you don't mind me asking... .you say very clearly that you were upset at this time. How did that start out? What were you so upset about that built up to something that big?

I find that the more specific you are about the situation, the easier it is to work through it and find better ways to deal with it in the future.

[girlyju]

There was a lot leading up to it. I wasn't at my best for sure - I was sick, in pain and therefore emotional. I recently was laid off from my job, was fighting depression. I felt like it "should be my turn" to be nurtured.

In the meantime I perceived days of disrespect that i hadn't talked to him about (or set appropriate boundaries for) much less resolved or let go.

When he made "yet another" a snide remark at me I started telling him how I felt - unskillfully of course. I am sure he felt attacked and judged. I felt like I was losing respect for myself for staying in the relationship when he was so mean to me... .What I wanted was to be listened to, validated, I became even more upset when he told me to just leave him alone - I felt like it was the ultimate insult.

It was sort of a perfect storm.

Yes, I do know to leave him alone now. :-P The thing was that - I felt like my need to be validated and heard and respected was of equal importance, if not more important, to his need to be left alone, which made me want to demand respect from him.

The next morning, he tried to say that "the whole thing was all my fault." It was as if he was trying to convince me that it was me that assaulted him. He started (what I now know as gaslighting) telling me that I wasn't remembering it correctly. He was acting mad. He couldn't listen to me when I told him he'd left me bruised and banged up. - kept interrupting about irrelevant things. I asked him to listen, and not interrupt. He said he would then he would interrupt again. He was agitated and impatient... .I could see he was going into that mode where he hates me.

But I stopped caring. I felt like if he could beat me up and not even have the decency to listen to me after that then there is no way to stay. I spent the day applying for jobs out of town, thinking i'd get a job and move away asap.

He came home for lunch and "caught me." He was upset. He told me that if I was going to leave that I needed to leave now - get all my ___ and go. He said some other nonsense about how he'd moved all the money out of our acct. I remained calm - I was angry. I felt I'd had enuf of the drama. He texted me after he left. He said in his text "it will hurt me if you stick around, knowing that you are going to leave."

Those words were finally true. I felt compassion. I started looking up everything I could about DBT, BPD, high conflict couples... .I can look at the situation and know precisely the dynamics at play... .I recognize that there is risk that this is a "charm" moment - I will have to be the driver of our continued improvement... .I will need to establish and stick to boundaries regarding my needs getting met... .I will need to walk away, time and time again, from his baiting and pushing. I will need to be the stronger person while he learns skills and gets better.

I am going to throw myself into this. My reward will be the freedom of my husband, who is locked inside a painful BPD-induced prison most of the time and also my own self regulation and mental health. We have many strengths: I have known him since I was 12 - I am in a place of trust like probably no one else. I can be specific about the abuse he endured - I was there! We have both been practicing mindfulness so dbt is a natural progression. There is fertile ground in us. We have no kids in the house... .Our weakness is that we both have mental illness - that I can become regulated, triggered, depressed. I will have to practice a great deal of self care.

I get it. I'm in this. I choose him.

[Grey Kitty]

  I hope you never go through something quite like this again.

There was a lot leading up to it. I wasn't at my best for sure - I was sick, in pain and therefore emotional. I recently was laid off from my job, was fighting depression. I felt like it "should be my turn" to be nurtured.

You were in a place where you needed and wanted support. Completely legitimate.

The thing was that - I felt like my need to be validated and heard and respected was of equal importance, if not more important, to his need to be left alone, which made me want to demand respect from him.

Yes, your need for validation and to be respected IS that important.

I'd suggest you look at it this way: If you were naked and alone in the arctic, would you demand respect from a hungry polar bear?

You have completely legitimate needs... .that he is completely incapable of fulfilling. When he is dysregulated, he's nearly incapable of doing anything kind or positive toward you. ":)emanding" validation from him will work as well as it would with that hungry polar bear!

The next morning, he tried to say that "the whole thing was all my fault." It was as if he was trying to convince me that it was me that assaulted him.

I recommend a zero tolerance policy on that. Be clear. This is domestic violence. Assault. If he EVER touches you again, his ass will be in jail so fast that his head won't have time to go up it!

For your own safety, make sure you mean it.

The same with giving you any sort of excuses or justification for it. Here's something I've said to my wife:

"Abuse is fundamentally about control. If you are subjecting me to abuse, any efforts on your part to tell me how I need to change or improve are part of the control and abuse. Until the abuse STOPS, I refuse to discuss any thing I'm doing wrong with you. You cannot set ANY conditions on me for you to stop abusing me."

You might also say that you are working on yourself, but will not be reporting back to him on it.

... .

These two statements do not contradict each other.

1. You have behavior you need to work on to stop provoking him.

2. Regardless of the provocation you gave him, physically assaulting you is completely unacceptable on his part.

Lastly, I've gotten a great deal personally from mindfulness meditation, and it helped my wife as well. If you can, keep that practice up as well as working on DBT.

And when you feel yourself almost triggered, or notice that you are already triggered, STOP INTERACTING WITH HIM. As quickly as you can, and as kindly and as peacefully as you can. If you only get one of those three, pick quickly.

 Take good care of yourself!

[girlyju]

I very much appreciate your advice and take it to heart. I did some research today on domestic violence. And successful treatments. I was able to ID his outburst as:

":)ysphoric-Borderline Violence - this kind of batterer entails a needy, dependent, and emotionally overwhelmed person who resorts to violence in frustration. Jacobson and Gottman (1998) called this the "pitbull" type of batterer, feeling extreme emotional and physical arousal and distress. Renzetti (1992) also classified 68% of the abuse in her lesbian samples as due to dependency needs. This kind of abuser is more likely to show obvious emotional adjustment problems and distress, such as depression, fears of abandonment, and great emotional dependence on the victim. "

I found out the best chance for a successful treatment is only when he takes responsibility for it and we put some boundaries up... .This weekend I will concrete my safety plan (I have it in my head, but need to iron out the exact details, notify my bug-out contact, etc.) I also downloaded a no-violence contract for us to both sign. It includes threats of violence and threats of leaving, a written plan for escalating tensions, and requires that if things were to ever get violent they would be reported within 24 hours, etc. Finally, I have a friend that we both trust that I can ask to do a periodic safety check-in on us, asking how things are going, speaking to each of us without the others presence. (It helps that she is a domestic violence volunteer!)

The studies I read mentioned that the reason people don't leave violent situations is that they do not recognize that they are in a pattern and because there is often a honeymoon period afterward where the abuser genuinely tries to change and make things better. This absolutely reinforces what you were telling me. I have to be crystal clear to him and to myself what I will do if this were to ever happen again.

My plan: After our morning meditation, when we are both peaceful, I will bring up to him the two statements you mentioned (both/and) as a way of opening the conversation. Then show him this study (using skills!) and explain to him that for me to maintain self respect and a sense of security I want proof that these changes are permanent. Then we will go over the no-violence contract and talk about a safety check-up.

On a side note... .I note that I am changed and I feel a little sad about that. I note that I also feel like I understand who this guy really is for the first time in our lives, and I accept him. I've already grieved for the relationship I thought I was going to have... .this time I think I grieve some innocence I feel I've lost. There is a part of me that WANTS to relax and soak up what I would receive as love that he is showering on me... .and yet I now know that a big part of this *IS* honey moon of BPD idealization, that ultimately WILL set me up for failure; that now is the best time I have to entrench these permanent solutions for our long-term success.

There is no unchanging or unlearning. He both loves me and also doesn't always *see me* really. And doesn't love require understanding? So he will not always be able to deliver real love. What a terrible handicap! So I am both sad about that and also resolved and hopeful to help him and us so that he can understand and be less handicapped in that way, for a greater percentage of time.

Thank you again! :-) 

~Julie

[Grey Kitty]

  You sound really good.

Here's a little pep talk about your DV 'talk' coming up:

You are telling him that it is unacceptable.

You are telling him what you will do. (Leave / involve police next time!)

You are not asking for his opinion.

You are not negotiating anything.

If he starts equivocating or justifying, that is right down the path to beat you again. Be completely clear that that is also unacceptable.

If there is anything that needs a rock solid boundary, this is it.

You can do this!

 GK

[waverider]

It is good that you realize the first step to getting anywhere is to learn regulation skills of your own. Otherwise you can't use any other tools as you are swept up in the reaction and in no state of wise mind to do anything appropriate.

Even those of us without any underlying issues of our own used to get drawn into this reactionary dysregulation as a response.

It is a cycle Trigger> reaction>counter reaction> counter reaction to the counter reaction> etc until you are both fired up and so far away from the original issue you are both frustrated and totally incapable of resolving anything. YOU have to break this cycle before anything starts to change.

Self regulation is about mindfulness in the moment and being prepared with contingencies about what you you are going to do if XYZ is happening. That is, not getting caught up with winging it in the moment under pressure

[girlyju]

Reporting back.

What went well: I was regulated. I didn't back down and also gave him space.

What didn't go well: First attempt... .I started talking to him about what had happened. I was upset but regulated. I was clear in that I wasn't judging him, but I asked to be validated. I was crying. At first, he seemed empathetic but when I told him I felt traumatized, he lost it. He accused me of being dysregulated. He asked for space and I gave it to him.

Second attempt: I told him I need him to use "give" skills and I wanted to talk to him. He immediately was defensive and told me that I needed to stop playing the victim. He said that I punched him and he would "break both my arms to get me away" from him if necessary. (I don't remember punching him, but maybe I did when trying to get out of the house?) He started listing these other times I've supposedly hurt him... .the couple of times I almost got in a fight with a friend. I tried to reel him back to present, and say I am not talking about historical instances, just talking about using skills here and now. I told him I needed to know that we are making progress, that we are trying, otherwise why bother? He said something angry and stormed out.

He then texted me that he asked for space and I gave it to him, so that was progress.

I'm trying to wrap my head around this. I'm so confused! He seems to really believe that he was somehow acting out of self defense! It doesn't make sense! I have bruises on my ankle, knee, hip, ribs, shoulder, forearm from him stomping and kicking me with heavy steel-toed boots. The back of my head is still tender from it being slammed so hard. How could he believe he did all that to me in self defense? And he doesn't have a mark? I was curled up on the floor.

I guess my question is, is it ok that he doesn't admit that he beat me up? Can we sign the no violence contract and move forward, or does he have to see that he is capable of and in fact did hurt me?

I can see that his and my discussion would move forward if I didn't insist on talking about what happened.

I know that half of that answer is posed at myself. Do I need him to acknowledge it? So far, I would say, yes. So far, yes, I have wanted him to acknowledge and to apologize. Since that night I can't sleep and when I do I have nightmares... .One time I saw him stomp the life out of a rat in our driveway. I was horrified. I keep envisioning that I am the rat... or I dream I am putting my own kids at risk to save his daughter from being carried away by a kidnapper. (I'm interpreting that as putting myself at risk to save him) I see his boots and shiver. I am afraid of him. I work with abused/neglected children. I get that I have experienced trauma.

We have had so much pain maybe it is too much to move forward... .

I find myself repeating the series of events in my head, as if I'm trying to prove that I'm not crazy! Like I'm asking - is it me? He tries to convince me that it is. I have to remind myself that I have had very stable relationships with my family and friends and coworkers - even my first husband and I hardly ever yelled... .that it is really is him that has BPD... .

So in trying to work this through in terms of dialectics - both/and are true. So his version of reality is that he was acting in self defense IS true. And it is also true that he beat me up - not I, him. So I am thinking that he really does *have to* admit that he beat me up and that it was not ok for him to do so. He needs to understand (to his core) that "defending himself" needs to be something other than hurting me... .otherwise I believe he could (accidentally) kill me. Just last month he sent me to the ER from throwing a glass at me that broke over my head. He probably needs to make a plan as to what he will do when and if he feels the need to "defend himself" against me again.

His comment that he would "break both my arms"... .(!)

I emailed him the contracts - one for no violence, one for respect. I also found a "validation proclamation" that is pretty cool. He emailed me back that he printed them out. So it seems that he is willing to sign them.

Please let me know your thoughts - does he need to see (my version of) reality? Is it ok that he believes that he was acting in self defense? Am I supposed to radically accept?

[123Phoebe]

Please let me know your thoughts - does he need to see (my version of) reality? Is it ok that he believes that he was acting in self defense? Am I supposed to radically accept?

Pardon my French, but HELL NO to all of the above!

All you need to Radically Accept is that he beat you up!  What you do with that information is entirely up to you.

Safety First!

[Grey Kitty]

I'll second that HELL NO.

If he can't see that he beat you up, I'd expect him to do the same next time he beats you up. Probably when he breaks both your arms!

By the way. It *IS OK* to judge somebody for beating you up! That is completely unacceptable behavior.

I don't remember your details. Are you and your children still living with him? If so, please, please, PLEASE make a safety plan to get you and your children out on zero notice.

[girlyju]

Thank you both for your replies. Our children do not live with us. For my safety plan, I have contacted a close-by friend and she has agreed to be my "bug-out" location. He does not know where she lives, and she lives within walking distance. I will confide in my other friend, who is a dom violence volunteer (and a director of nat'l alliance on mental illness) as well so that there is an outside source looking into our situation.

UPDATE: He came home for lunch and we talked again. I was firm. I told him over and over that regardless of my actions (following him, etc) his were NOT ok and they were UNjustified. I told him that I cannot budge on this. He tried to circle out of it, accusing me of this and that on this/that occasion. I told him that to be with him I must feel safe. That unless he accepts that he is to not physically hurt me in any way, under any conditions, I would not feel safe around him and I could not live with him. He tried to get me to promise that I wouldn't follow him or wake him up when dysregulated. I said, we can talk about that later - before I can move forward I will have to start to believe that he is actually sorry and I can't until we talk about the hurt that was done to my body. We went on and on. I kept calm, and kept repeating my position. I told him he needed to think this through - that he needed to really feel this at his core... .that I could not live with someone that felt it was EVER ok to hurt my body.

Before he left, he looked at me wide-eyed. He had the look of great fear - not afraid of me leaving, rather afraid that I would physically hurt him and that by making this vow, he wouldn't be able to defend himself. He said, "I commit. I won't ever, ever hurt you." then he said, "I will call the police if you try anything!"

I told him that it was clear that it hurt him a great deal to say that to me. I told him I loved him, that he can trust me, and that we can talk more tonight. I said I can guarantee 100% that I am growing, that I will continue to improve over the course of my life, and that right now I am focused on improving those very things which he is feeling as threatening.

The contracts I have are: 1. "Before the Final Break-Up Relationship Agreement" (10 relationship rules that we both sign off on); 2. Safety & Protection Plan for Couples - Anger Mgmt Contract" (altho I do believe he was acting out of FEAR not ANGER at a perceived threat?) *Is it possible that he is also High Functioning Autistic? I'm just thinking how he reacts to any emotion I might have - whether justifiable given the circumstance or not - as "wow! she's out of control!"?

I also have a "Validation Proclamation"

What I want us to do tonight is write down the stages of Trigger/Reaction episode, then brainstorm what we each could have done differently at each step; then each of us formulate our own strategy for dealing with stressful discussions in the future. (for example, I think it would be helpful for me to give my initial "I feel like... ." in writing/email so he isn't faced with my emotion which seems to be a HUGE trigger for him)

Please continue let me know your thoughts. I very, very much appreciate it.

[123Phoebe]

I also have a "Validation Proclamation"

What I want us to do tonight is write down the stages of Trigger/Reaction episode, then brainstorm what we each could have done differently at each step; then each of us formulate our own strategy for dealing with stressful discussions in the future. (for example, I think it would be helpful for me to give my initial "I feel like... ." in writing/email so he isn't faced with my emotion which seems to be a HUGE trigger for him)

Please continue let me know your thoughts. I very, very much appreciate it.

girlyju, you might not want to hear what my thoughts are...

What you have planned out for tonight sounds like therapist territory.  We are not their therapists.  Boundaries are needed and he's already bust through a big one, by beating you up.

What kind of advice has your domestic violence volunteer friend given you?

[Grey Kitty]

Before he left, he looked at me wide-eyed. He had the look of great fear - not afraid of me leaving, rather afraid that I would physically hurt him and that by making this vow, he wouldn't be able to defend himself. He said, "I commit. I won't ever, ever hurt you." then he said, "I will call the police if you try anything!"

If that comes up, I think you could both validate that and agree with it.

If one partner gets violent, for the other partner, step #1 is get distance, and step #2 is involve the police, especially if distance is hard to get.

FYI, if the police are involved on any sort of DV call, the guy is a LOT more likely to go to jail than the woman. One (divorced) member here described how when the police got involved, his small child was clinging to him, and the police were saying that he should give the child to the mother (so he could be taken to jail). His child just started wailing louder and clinging harder to him, and he's sure that were it not for this, he would have been in jail that night. And she was the violent one, not him.

Obviously, don't tell him this sort of story--he is afraid and needs comfort, and this will just make him more afraid. Still... .you can rest a little easier knowing that the law is very likely to favor you.

What I want us to do tonight is write down the stages of Trigger/Reaction episode, then brainstorm what we each could have done differently at each step; then each of us formulate our own strategy for dealing with stressful discussions in the future.

My take is that this is like an emotional senior project, and your partner is in emotional pre-school.

It is a great idea... .but way beyond his capacity to do well today.

I'd highly recommend you look at what YOU can do to work on yourself... .starting with learning about how to enforce boundaries with him.

[girlyju]

Just a quick update: I have connected with and confided in a dear friend who lives within walking distance. She has been a victim and understand the complexity. She advised me to pack a bag, leave it and some cash in a place I can get to. I'm leaving it in the trunk of my car. I connected her to my other friend who is dom violence volunteer advocate, who she is to call if there is any emergency. I feel like that's a solid plan.

It was so weird telling someone about what's been going on. Like unreal. I could see how I was being tricked into thinking I had the disorder! I'm a relatively assertive person, I told her. My friend says, yeah but you won't be if the cycle of abuse continues. She was dead right.

I mentioned to her that I have the feeling he would call the police as if I was abusing him (ie set me up) before he would hurt me again. I believe you, grey kitty, that they are more likely to arrest him regardless. But that would be only if I came after him with unregulated emotional needs again.

I feel 100% certain that if I can regulate my own emotions I am safe with my polar bear. If there is one thing (maybe my favorite thing) I can brag on about my dh is that he has *never* let me down on continuous self improvement and I won't let him down either. We are both committed to fixing us.

I am deep into learning on my own what I can to help myself and what his unique BPD needs are. We are practicing skills from the dbt workbook together. This morning we set forth a fun competition to see who can out-validate the other. Lol

Grey, can you suggest any good sources of info on setting healthy boundaries?

Thank you again for all your support. Once I'm fully recovered I will pay it forward.

[Grey Kitty]

I feel 100% certain that if I can regulate my own emotions I am safe with my polar bear. If there is one thing (maybe my favorite thing) I can brag on about my dh is that he has *never* let me down on continuous self improvement and I won't let him down either. We are both committed to fixing us.

I'm gonna be a hardass on this one.

Yes, that is good. No it is not good enough. You need to be physically safe, even if you fail to regulate your own emotions. Do whatever it takes to make sure you have this safety.

Aside: If failing to regulate your emotions leads YOU to physical violence, that changes the game. THAT is completely unacceptable on your part. This is a hard and clear line. Don't cross it. (Again, if you have before)

We have a couple workshops on boundaries. Reading them is a good start.

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

BOUNDARIES: Case studies

And once you do that... .post here or start a new topic, sharing where you think you need a boundary, and how you think plan to enforce it. I find that working in specific concrete examples is very productive.

[waverider]

I feel 100% certain that if I can regulate my own emotions I am safe with my polar bear.

Problem is you can't 100% guarantee this. Best intentions and knowing better aside. I still dysregulate occasionally myself. Most people will.

[123Phoebe]

Domestic violence/physical abuse, drastically changes the dynamic, girlyju

I feel 100% certain that if I can regulate my own emotions I am safe with my polar bear.

Unfortunately, feelings don't equal facts.  Your emotions have ZERO to do with his violent tendencies; it has nothing to do with you, who you are as a person.  Sure, you can try not to provoke him and of course for your own protection, it's best not to poke the bear.

That being said, he's already done it without consequence.  From what I've heard/read about DV, it's not a matter of if he'll beat you up again, it's a matter of when... .

This morning we set forth a fun competition to see who can out-validate the other. Lol

All the validation competitions in the world won't stop him from becoming dysregulated at some point in time and you know who his angst will be directed at?

Please protect yourself