What Does It Mean To Be A Man?

[fromheeltoheal]

I think it's a society pressure rather than our essence of selves.

And where do you think that society pressure comes from?  Human nature, or specifically the nature of humans who are descendants of humans who saw the value in male/female bonding for the purpose of raising more humans; the ones who didn't see that value died out.

Do you still wash your clothes in the stream? Society needs to evolve the way men have treated women for the past two thousand years is a disgrace, millions of women burnt up as witches, physical abuse, the list goes on and on. Just because something was Doesnt mean we should encourage it as something to hang onto today. Males under pressure to be men causes fights, suicide and even wars, it's nothing to strive for.

And where do I think it comes from? A desire to maintain a hierarchy that keeps almost everyone enslaved. I think it comes from ego.

Society is evolving.  Primates have been around for 55 million years; 2000 years is a drop in the bucket.  Change happens very slowly in evolutionary time.

And yet we can change ourselves in the blink of an eye. That's the beauty of this life, short as it is, we go around constructing life every second of the day. For sure I have to live in a world that is at is, but I personally won't be contributing to laying down a set of rules that any group of people should adhear to for the benefit of another group, things are hard enough without adding to the pressure of behavioural norms. Apart from not killing and being respectful and conscious of course! We all oughta do that... thou I know a group of people that don't! They won't be making my world anymore either.

Absolutely.  Individually we can change our lives immediately by choosing what to make things mean, what to believe, and what to focus on, no question.  And societies need rules, which are the popular consensus of masses, although any rules that try and negate human nature won't work.  And women will continue to test men, because evolutionarily it works.

[Trog]

I think it's a society pressure rather than our essence of selves.

And where do you think that society pressure comes from?  Human nature, or specifically the nature of humans who are descendants of humans who saw the value in male/female bonding for the purpose of raising more humans; the ones who didn't see that value died out.

Do you still wash your clothes in the stream? Society needs to evolve the way men have treated women for the past two thousand years is a disgrace, millions of women burnt up as witches, physical abuse, the list goes on and on. Just because something was Doesnt mean we should encourage it as something to hang onto today. Males under pressure to be men causes fights, suicide and even wars, it's nothing to strive for.

And where do I think it comes from? A desire to maintain a hierarchy that keeps almost everyone enslaved. I think it comes from ego.

Society is evolving.  Primates have been around for 55 million years; 2000 years is a drop in the bucket.  Change happens very slowly in evolutionary time.

And yet we can change ourselves in the blink of an eye. That's the beauty of this life, short as it is, we go around constructing life every second of the day. For sure I have to live in a world that is at is, but I personally won't be contributing to laying down a set of rules that any group of people should adhear to for the benefit of another group, things are hard enough without adding to the pressure of behavioural norms. Apart from not killing and being respectful and conscious of course! We all oughta do that... thou I know a group of people that don't! They won't be making my world anymore either.

Absolutely.  Individually we can change our lives immediately by choosing what to make things mean, what to believe, and what to focus on, no question.  And societies need rules, which are the popular consensus of masses, although any rules that try and negate human nature won't work.  And women will continue to test men, because evolutionarily it works.

'worked'. And I'm not even sure I agree to that. I just don't agree let's leave it there, it seems to be a popular discussion to lay out tidbits of what makes a gender im spoiling the fun so I'll bow out of the discussion as ive nothing to add. Respectfully.

[Turkish]

I grew up as the adopted son of a single mother who never had boyfriends. As such, I had no male role models around. As a way to validate herself, she used to tell me from a young age, "I'm both your mother and your father." Invalidating, and even then I realized it on some level.

I learned to be in tune and aware of a woman's feelings from a young age. What better way than to start life WoE? My Ex used to comment that I was emotionally feminine for a man.

So having no role models, I constructed myself. I used to have more femae friends than male, and wrongly took self worth from that fact. What was the real fact? That I could sooth and validate. In other words, taking responsibility for someone else's emotions. I spent almost 6 years doubting what it was to bd a man by listening to an invalidating partner tell me that "men do this" or "you're the man, this is your job," also confused by being raised by an independent woman who relied on herself for everything, so my role model in that regard was skewed. This is my background in briefs. 

It's hard to answer this question because we see it and ourselves through filters. What does society say (it changes through time), and what do women want (which also changes through time, also based upon society--- to be fair, we could say the same thing in reverse talking about what it means to be a woman). This can be further complicated by those of us, like myself, who had cross-cultural relationship. Again, definitions.

My T quickly picked on the fact that I had no male role models, and says I am "inventing" being a father. In a way, I invented being a man. I'm open to ideas, but am also cynical. I'm not going find the answer searching youtube videos, talking to life coaches, or reading men's magazines. What I've done is to acknowledge my inborn traits, as well as those learne, recognizing the dysfunctional parts and exorcizing them. I am, however, that I am. Loyalty, integrity, truthful (I'm still tryg to exorcize my avoidant traits), kind to all, and underneath it all, strong when needed. I protect, and even my Ex never faulted me for that. I am honorable. I'm a mirror to my children, not the other way around, and I'm a safe harbor. I give duty as needed, respect authority, while trying to exercise authority when it is given to me. I respect others, but am working hard on also respecting myself. I think others see when one respects his or herself, and they tend to mirror that. When I fail at any of these, I don't beat myself up (shame), I acknowledge it, and strive to do better. I am only human after all, not a construct, and the shame is on anyone else who thinks otherwise.

This is all a constant work in progress, of course, and notice I didn't mention minutiae like "fixes gadgets" or "mows the lawn." I think too many get caught up in details and roles at the expense of considering underlying values. Values are what define a person, not expectations.

[waverider]

You are not a man if you are trying to match yourself to a list of qualities that are laid down by a woman. That is simply being a reactionary follower, and not being you. It is not a stereotype job description, where the job it is to be approved by the opposite sex. Or anyone for that matter.

You are a man when you can clearly understand what you value, being able to see your own flaws and accept them. Make your choices in life, know why, and be proud of who you are.

It can be like a penny dropping, you suddenly become a different kind of aware, a mindfulness which in turn brings about a certain self confidence that you simply would have no need to ask this sort of question, as you know.

[workinprogress]

I ran across something in the book "Wild at Heart" tonight.  It applies here.

The book says that a man needs a battle, something that he is involved with or called to that is bigger than his relationships/wife/family.

After a lifetime of letting other people be my battle, I understand that the author is correct.  A man needs a power bigger than him that drives him.

I saw an interview with Mohammad Ali, in which he said that he fought for "Allah."

Later in the same show, they spoke with George Foreman who talked about a near death experience.  During the NDE, he found that his money and his possessions meant nothing.  He tried to bargain and say that he would donate his money.  I believe that according to the story, Jesus told him that he didn't want his money, that he wanted him.  So, George Foreman made God his priority and went on to be a champion fighter.

Now, I want to add a sobering thought, BPD's will not allow you to have anything greater than them in your life.

[waverider]

The short version I heard was that "every man needs a task in order to feel a sense of purpose".

I guess with no task there is no reward, only either emptiness or a false sense of entitlement.

Dealing with BPD has been a huge task and hence has given me a huge sense of being who I am.

[Turkish]

The short version I heard was that "every man needs a task in order to feel a sense of purpose".

I guess with no task there is no reward, only either emptiness or a false sense of entitlement.

Dealing with BPD has been a huge task and hence has given me a huge sense of being who I am.

Maybe, PDs aside, a man needs to love, and a woman needs to be loved. Of course this could be reversed and still be true, but I am thinking in the context of purpose and primary need.

[Perfidy]

":)on't try to understand women if you're a man. Women understand women, and they hate each other."~John Wayne?

[Crumbling]

Doesn't it all just boil down to the fact that we need to know ourselves, and accept ourselves for who we are?

My BPDh tried to pull a "I'm the man of the house so you do as I say" on me the other day.

Did not go over well... .but it started me thinking, does he derive his 'manhood' from thinking of himself as the head of the household?  I certainly blew that out of the water for him pretty quick.  Did I bruise his manhood?  Don't know, was too angry to care.

Does a husband need to feel like the king in his castle to feel like a man?

[fromheeltoheal]

Does a husband need to feel like the king in his castle to feel like a man?

No, a man needs to have a sense of purpose and an internal drive to achieve that purpose to feel like a man.  The last woman a man should take direction from is his mother; he should be with his woman and do things for her because he wants to, not because she's directing him to, and if he does follow her direction she will lose respect for him, and he for himself.

[Crumbling]

     Same holds true in reverse, ya know. 

I remember just before getting married, the pastor that married us asked me to really think about what I felt our chances of success in the marriage were.  I told him I would, but that my gut reaction to his question was that our chances would be great, as long as I stay strong enough to never take his advice about my life.  He laughed, patted me on the back, and said you guys'll do fine!

We both need to make our own choices to feel healthy about who we are.

My BPDh certainly lacks a sense of purpose and internal drive.  Maybe that's why he looks at unhealthy ways to feel like a man.

[fromheeltoheal]

    Same holds true in reverse, ya know. 

I remember just before getting married, the pastor that married us asked me to really think about what I felt our chances of success in the marriage were.  I told him I would, but that my gut reaction to his question was that our chances would be great, as long as I stay strong enough to never take his advice about my life.  He laughed, patted me on the back, and said you guys'll do fine!

We both need to make our own choices to feel healthy about who we are.

My BPDh certainly lacks a sense of purpose and internal drive.  Maybe that's why he looks at unhealthy ways to feel like a man.

Yes, and as a man it's much easier for me to understand men, but it's never a good idea to give a woman advice she didn't ask for, or to be with a woman who takes unsolicited advice unquestioningly.  I don't know your story Crumbling; are you staying with him?  Are you trying to help him find some purpose?

[Crumbling]

Been married with pwBPD ten and a half years.  I'm staying.  I've invested a lot, and he is making strides at keeping his dysregulations at a minimum.  Both married before, I have two grown kids, none together.

I can't help him find his purpose, that's his path.    Just trying to understand him more.

[maxen]

i'm always baffled by discussions like this. i wonder what interests a woman has in telling a man how a man should be, or what interests a man has in telling a man what a man should be. the world is a big place, and there are lots of kinds of people in it, who have developed different but effective reactions to the demands of life. yes, i think i've noticed patterns. no, these don't predicate how i approach any individual. i'll only say that i see nothing above asserted about men, which would not also be true of women.

[fromheeltoheal]

i'm always baffled by discussions like this. i wonder what interests a woman has in telling a man how a man should be, or what interests a man has in telling a man what a man should be. the world is a big place, and there are lots of kinds of people in it, who have developed different but effective reactions to the demands of life. yes, i think i've noticed patterns. no, these don't predicate how i approach any individual. i'll only say that i see nothing above asserted about men, which would not also be true of women.

True maxen, and men and women are wired differently, so I agree, it's not very useful to have a woman tell a man how to be a man.  And those of us who grew up without strong male role models can benefit a lot from hearing how other men "who have developed different but effective reactions to the demands of life" live their lives, which starts with their beliefs about what it means to be a man.

[Crumbling]

Yep, Maxen, that's right. We are all individuals, and that is the best way to be defined, by who we are as a person, not a gender.

That being said, I believe there is benefit in knowing your gender traits.  They are there.  I've had no kids at home for years, and I still turn around when someone yells, "Mom!" in the grocery store.  I'm a mom to the core of who I am and that's because I have the right parts for the job.  This I know, and can sense when I'm mothering someone, and therefore deal with it internally instead of acting on impulse.   A man should be able to capture the same comfort of knowing what makes him a man inside... .hence, I feel, the validity of the discussion.

[hergestridge]

You know who you are. That's one of the problems that pwBPD have, they don't know who they are.

We don't need to be told who we are or guided towards gender traits. I think that is a terribly misleading path. If there are some natural way to act for a man or a woman, this not something that we have to teach eachother.

Why are people so eager to tell the world that men and women are wired differently? If you are so sure, why you don't you just lean back and watch that prove itself.

I think there is a dishonesty in the reasoning where they say someone have this inherent trait and we just have to help him/her bring it out. As if nature won't have its way unless we help it. I'm not buying into that.

[fromheeltoheal]

Why are people so eager to tell the world that men and women are wired differently? If you are so sure, why you don't you just lean back and watch that prove itself.

It's the other way around: it does prove itself again and again, and then we talk about it on threads called What Does It Mean To Be A Man?

[Crumbling]

I agree pwBPD don't know who they are.

But, consider this scenario:  I complain about something --- my H starts telling me what I should do to fix it.  I recognize his response as being motivated by his 'manly need to fix things', and appreciate that about him, and tell him so.  I also ensure him that I was just expressing my feelings, and not really needing him to fix it, but just to acknowledge them.

In this case, knowing what it means to be a man is helpful.  No?

[fromheeltoheal]

I agree pwBPD don't know who they are.

But, consider this scenario:  I complain about something --- my H starts telling me what I should do to fix it.  I recognize his response as being motivated by his 'manly need to fix things', and appreciate that about him, and tell him so.  I also ensure him that I was just expressing my feelings, and not really needing him to fix it, but just to acknowledge them.

In this case, knowing what it means to be a man is helpful.  No?

Yes, and knowing what a woman needs and wants is helpful too.  It takes conscious effort for a man to not jump in and fix, and to know that listening to a woman express her frustrations, hearing them, and acknowledging them will make her feel better, the being heard and understood in itself, and in a sense that's fixing them, avoids a lot of heartache.

[hergestridge]

Why are people so eager to tell the world that men and women are wired differently? If you are so sure, why you don't you just lean back and watch that prove itself.

It's the other way around: it does prove itself again and again, and then we talk about it on threads called What Does It Mean To Be A Man?

But if you really read this thread you will see that what is being discussed is how to guide people how to be proper men and women. How does that come from something proving itself again and again?

[maxen]

But, consider this scenario:  I complain about something --- my H starts telling me what I should do to fix it.  I recognize his response as being motivated by his 'manly need to fix things', and appreciate that about him, and tell him so.

there's nothing inherently manly about your h's reaction. some men won't react that way, and some women will. when my wife complained about something, i talked with her about it, or just said "oh", because where i'm from women are pro-active and take care of their own situations and if they want something fixed they tend to do it themselves. i credit this to their farm upbringing.

[livednlearned]

I'm 39 and I am in the process of rebuilding myself.

The only thing I know is my old self is of no use now. I am scared of what will come, but even more scared of remaining the same.

I realized I am a people pleaser when it comes to women, i'm working on changing that, first i'm repeating to myself everyday 'I am completely independant of the good or bad opinions of others' 10 days by now. I has helped.

One thing I felt from an encouter with a woman was that I felt insecure and as a child. I've been talking to my T about 'becoming a man' from time to time, now is the time, but What Does It Mean To Be A Man?

I think the original post is more about feeling insecure, being a people pleaser, and being able to feel whole or ok despite what others say. In that sense, maybe it does not matter what it means to be a man so much as what it means to feel healthy and whole.

Thoughts?

[fromheeltoheal]

Why are people so eager to tell the world that men and women are wired differently? If you are so sure, why you don't you just lean back and watch that prove itself.

It's the other way around: it does prove itself again and again, and then we talk about it on threads called What Does It Mean To Be A Man?

But if you really read this thread you will see that what is being discussed is how to guide people how to be proper men and women. How does that come from something proving itself again and again?

There is no proper way to be a man and there are as many kinds of men as there are men, although there are gender traits that show up consistently, and one way to notice them is how they contrast with the gender traits of women.