Does their fear of shame prevent them from communicating?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi. Some advice / gut reactions would greatly be appreciated.

Having just read the following on this site;

"Shame is a strong component of the BPD experience, and for a pwBPD to actually face the content of what he or she has done is furiously painful... .What the pwBPD is avoiding is a sense of being judged. the best way to do that is not to be faced with the consequences of his/her actions."

I understand and fully accept this.

My question is... .

My EXBPD has screwed me to the tune of nearer £18,000, some of which included money from my young child. (How low can you go?) Having tried to approach, negotiated and settle this amicably, and having been sent away, aghast at his rewrite of history and reality, claiming he does not and will not ever owe this money (He most certainly does - he signed the documents!)... .I am now having to launch a court action (having issued a lawyers letter which he promptly ignored!) which will either compel him to attend in court and fight his corner / be judged / face his shame /  stand there and try to convince a judge that he is innocent of the claims made... .or ignore it... .in which case it is ruled in my favour without his attendance.

Given the accepted TOTAL wish to not face their shame and their inherent desire NOT to be judged or view badly, what are the chances of him actually turning up and attempting to defend the seemingly indefensible?

I know time with tell on this one, but I feel sick and anxious and would just appreciate your thoughts on this one.

Thanks in advance,

C14xx

[Compassion14]

Hi. Some advice / gut reactions would greatly be appreciated.

Having just read the following on this site;

"Shame is a strong component of the BPD experience, and for a pwBPD to actually face the content of what he or she has done is furiously painful... .What the pwBPD is avoiding is a sense of being judged. the best way to do that is not to be faced with the consequences of his/her actions."

I understand and fully accept this.

My question is... .

My EXBPD has screwed me to the tune of nearer £18,000, some of which included money from my young child. (How low can you go?) Having tried to approach, negotiated and settle this amicably, and having been sent away, aghast at his rewrite of history and reality, claiming he does not and will not ever owe this money (He most certainly does - he signed the documents!)... .I am now having to launch a court action (having issued a lawyers letter which he promptly ignored!) which will either compel him to attend in court and fight his corner / be judged / face his shame /  stand there and try to convince a judge that he is innocent of the claims made... .or ignore it... .in which case it is ruled in my favour without his attendance.

Given the accepted TOTAL wish to not face their shame and their inherent desire NOT to be judged or view badly, what are the chances of him actually turning up and attempting to defend the seemingly indefensible?

I know time with tell on this one, but I feel sick and anxious and would just appreciate your thoughts on this one.

Thanks in advance,

C14xx

[ogopogodude]

C14,

... .I understand, from my limited researching, that BPD-afflicted persons have deficiencies in their emotional centres. They have not evolved or matured in this aspect of brain function. Logically, feelings of shame and humiliation (and fear) are emotions that are associated with the limbic system where emotions are processed.

   Communication is obviously a problem with BPD persons. But communication is also a problem with other afflictions so one must keep this in mind as well.  Anyways, the question in your title of your thread: does the fear of shame  prevent them to properly communicate---> this may be a stretch.  My ex did so many bizarre actions and said so many weird things (and still does) that there certainly wasn't any evidence of fear ... .or shame, or having to face the consequences at a later date.   

   Human behaviour is guided and modified by what is socially acceptable in each culture, as a general rule. What is considered socially acceptable and what is not (i.e. what is "normal" is simply not an issue when it comes to a BPD, in my humble opinion.  Or if it is, they suppress this concept or "deal with it after the fact" hoping that what they did or did not do at an earlier situation will "go away" or that people will probably forget what happened in the past.

If a BPD person really "cared" (if that's the proper verb/word) about about being in a state of shame for a certain action or inaction then they have a normal brain function, wouldn't they?  My ex-wife, however, is quite artistic at times. Fear is a major driving force in the BPD person but "fear of shame"?, ... maybe... .but I don't think so.  Bpd's have fear alright, ... but fear of other things is more likely.  Can anybody else put their two cents in on this one?

[peiper]

Personally I don't feel that my exBPD feels any shame. Time and time again she did her best to destroy me emotionally and never showed any remorse whatsoever. With mine she got what she wanted and then had no use for me. It was my fault I let her do all she did. Never again.

[ForeverDad]

You are setting a boundary with him - consequences for the signed documents.  That is the reality, however it doesn't mean he will accept it.  If he doesn't show up it may be that he will try to act the victim?  If he does then likely it will be so he can Blame-Shift and make it someone else's fault, anyone's but his.

Ponder well the counter-allegations he might make.  If he appears he is very likely to try to make everyone else in the past relationship look 'worse' than him.  That's what my ex did, any time she misbehaved I knew to expect some allegations.  For example, when my ex cursed out the pediatrician's staff and the pediatrician "withdrew services" for our child, I knew to expect false allegations and sure enough I was contacted by CPS shortly thereafter for claims I raged and beat my very active boy, of all places, on the shins.

Be aware than once you have a judgment, it's not over.  Then you'll have to get it enforced, if you can.

[maxen]

i wrote the quote in the OP. i based that not only on my reading of BPD but on my experience in my marriage. my wife did once express shame over her behaviors, but never guilt and certainly never apology. numerous times in the marriage, even before the marriage   ,  she "forgot" to tell me things, important things, because, i came to realize, she feared my comment (this before i ever heard of BPD). her fear was, objectively, preposterous. i even tried to assuage her, saying "i can't always agree with you but i always want to hear what you say." it didn't work.

so in my case, shame did prevent her from communicating. but as to the specifics of your case, Compassion, you should take on board what ForeverDad has said in the post above. that's the sort of thing you need to be prepared for.

[livednlearned]

From what I understand, there is a difference between shame as a fleeting emotion, and shame as a chronic state or condition that distorts a person's entire sense of self. Often, people who do not have BPD mistake the two (and sometimes confuse guilt with shame, too). In that chronic state of shame, which is not necessarily connected to their actions so much as how they block any recognition of feeling toxic levels of shame, a BPD person develops maladaptive ways to cope with what are intense and sometimes severe feelings. The maladaptive ways are BPD behaviors like lying, hiding, concealing, avoiding, but also anger, impulsivity, rage, abuse, hedonism. When shame becomes intolerable, they may also become suicidal. Anything to avoid confronting the chronic feeling of shame they experience. Defense mechanisms to protect them from experiencing the shame directly tend to be fierce, like survival mechanisms. And also disassociation and psychosis.

What we see are the defenses to acknowledging or confronting that shame, but it is there. It's driving the whole show.

I think it's hard to predict how your ex will respond, but many people with BPD tend to sabotage themselves in court situations. Bill Eddy, who wrote Splitting: Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse and founded the High Conflict Institute, goes so far as to say that if lawyers see a client sabotaging his best interests in court, there is a good chance he or she suffers from BPD.

Be extra cautious right now, especially the week leading up to the court date, and definitely the day of the hearing. If recording is legal, consider having a device handy at all times. The worse-case scenario is a disordered person will try to threaten you, or harm you, to prevent you from showing up in court. The best-case scenario is that he will not appear. But like FD said, no matter what the court orders, you will be in the position of enforcing that order. If you can, try to include language that will optimize your ability to collect the money, like consequences or leverage. You may not be able to garnish his wages, but perhaps there is something else that can be done to flush him out. The only way I was able to collect legal fees from my ex, who was court-ordered to pay them, was by threat of jail. Suddenly when the bailiff was taking out handcuffs, N/BPDx seemed to put two and two together. But my ex also has very strong narcissistic traits, and is a former trial lawyer. I think he dealt with his intense shame (ie. having incriminating emails he wrote being read aloud in court) by having an almost disassociative, psychotic experience in the court room.

[Linda Maria]

Hi compassion14!  I totally get how you must be feeling sick and anxious.  My situation is not so bad - I have a uBPDsis who has made life hell since my Mum died, and after 18 months of real nastiness and being jerked around, I had to start court proceedings in order to get properties sold, as while she was the one insisting they be sold, she then did everything she could to hold things up. I just had to start bringing the nightmare to an end.   Once papers were served, things moved a bit more, then stalled again, but finally both properties have been sold.  I have no doubt it wouldn't have happened without the threat of court, and I have no doubt I would have won, and could have claimed all sorts of costs, rent etc. but I am happy to let it go and take a financial hit regarding solicitors fees etc. rather than continue with a claim for the other things.  However, she now won't respond to the solicitor's letter stating we are not pursuing the claim, so he may still have to go to a hearing to listen to some mad stories about me, involving me in more cost!  It's like it just never ends.  So far, she has actually ignored all communications from my solicitor and the court - I only knew she had received the papers, because the next day she did finally sign the contract (the 3rd one sent to her in nearly 3 months) meaning one property finally sold, and a few days later, accepted the offer on the other one - we had been waiting 6 weeks for her to confirm acceptance.  She had ignored all communications from all parties, solicitors, estate agents etc. - even though she had chosen the companies herself - and I had just agreed rather than give her an excuse to not co-operate.  But she couldn't even co-operate with people she had chosen to work with.  I think she realised the threat of court was real, and if she hadn't signed contracts etc. when she did, we truly were on the verge of losing the sales - then she would have no chance in court - because it was crystal clear what was going on.  I was dreading going to court - but I always thought that she would just either not turn up - or would come representing herself - as she thinks she is much cleverer than any solicitor, and she would spew a lot of irrelevant rubbish about how terrible I am - not understanding that whether I am or not was of no interest to the judge, and I would win the case.  I cannot for the life of me work out why they don't communicate - she could have come up with all sorts of slightly more plausible stories and spun things out for much longer in some ways - but she just ignored all calls/texts/letters from everyone, and then left weird out of hours voicemails on people's machines saying she had a problem with her phone, she couldn't pick up messages, why wasn't she being kept informed etc etc.  It was clear as day what was going on.  She was even denying receipt of hand-delivered letters from the solicitors - they were by this time taking photos of themselves putting them through the letterbox, and surprise surprise, they are now the subject of an official complaint themselves!  I don't think they really have any shame for the most part - with my uBPDsis - it's like she can't even acknowledge I exist, or have any rights - she will only respond to anyone if she wants to, not because - by normal standards - she is obligated to.  She seems to have no regard for anyone, and her non-communication has cost her money as well, as costs have mounted up on the properties that the estate then has to pay - but she doesn't seem to care.  So there is no logic.  Sorry -ended up venting - I wish you well with the court case - I honestly think you will be fine - because you will have all the facts and figures at your fingertips, and your case will be clear and credible.  It is highly unlikely to be that way for the other side, and my experience has been that professionals see through this stuff straightaway as they are not emotionally involved.  Fingers crossed for you - I wish you well.

[Compassion14]

Thank you so very much everyone. Your input and insight is invaluable and is helping me build a picture of what is to come and what I need to remain mindful of. Yes, I think there is a chance of him blowing up prior to the hearing, though what resonates more is the vision of his disassociating and ultimately contradicting himself in court. He will be highly intimidated and will enter a very strange zone to deal with it - IF he chooses to deal with it. I am also prepared for the fact that there is NO way he will just hand over the money IF and WHEN he is ordered to pay it. It will be a battle to the end - but I am prepared to pressurise him and force him into a corner to see some sort of justice served. He cared not one bit about the stress, tension and despair him behaviour caused me and my family. I, in no way, wish to be in the situation I am in with him, but I will NOT back away from something that is SO wrong and deserves acknowledgment and validating - even if that is only ever from the court itself.

I nearly walked away, for the sake of peace, when this first happened, then thought, 'NO, he will just do this to someone else - PLUS, I did not deserve one bit of this!  I gave him everything, and more, only to be humped so outrageously.

I dread and look forward to facing him in court. Not that he'll be able to look me in the eye. It's not about revenge. It's about self esteem. And £18K. Fingers crossed. 

[Linda Maria]

Good for you Compassion14!  My experience has been that when they are forced to do something - it usually works out better than you think.  I was in bits last year, with all the hate mail that came my way.  When I got a solicitor - and she realised she couldn't get to me personally so much - or there were likely to be consequences, the nasty letters did dry up.  They seem to tell their mad stories, and go on the attack where they think they can get some sort of response, or get away with it, to keep feeding their weird needs.  My uBPDsis has I know, moved onto other targets - she is suing or officially complaining about all sorts of people who have done absolutely nothing wrong - estate agents, solicitors etc.  All these parties acted very professionally, were endlessly courteous and patient with her, and never challenged the lies and stories though it was obvious what they were.  They were just doing their job - which we were paying them to do!  So I do think at some point you do have to take a stand, and do it the best way you can, as that's the only way you can get closure, and also be able to look yourself in the eye, and know you did everything you could.  Then you can move on with the rest of your life.  That's how I feel about it.  Lots of luck - I think it will be emotionally challenging, but will work out for the best. 

[Compassion14]

Thank you Linda Maria, that means a great deal.   

C14X