It almost came out tonight, and then I put on my cape and jumped in to save her

[Ripped Heart]

Following on from the events of yesterday, there has been some back and forth communication today.

It's exBPDgf's D17's 18th birthday on Monday and she is in a panic about getting things right to the point she is getting stressed. She called to offload and I listened, made a couple of suggestions such as putting together a list of what needs to be done and if she finds it too overwhelming, if there is anything on the list I could assist with. As it happened, there were a few things she needed looking up online which were causing the greatest anxiety for her so I had a look and sent her the information. Which turned out to be a great help for her.

Earlier in the evening, I have a feeling she was inviting herself around to mine. She said she wanted to bring me a couple of things but didn't have enough fuel in the car to get over and come back (usually I would have offered to fill her car but didn't this time) then she said she was off work tomorrow anyway (I think she was expecting me to ask her to come over and stay, but I didn't) Instead I told her we could do that another time as I had plans tonight to meet up with a couple of friends and that we were going out for a meal and a catch up.

I also told her how I felt about her and that I haven't wavered in my feelings at any point, that I can't keep chasing her emotions around because I'm not designed to love one second and hate the next. So that as part of the new year, I've explained my feelings and rooting myself firmly in one spot. Whether she goes or stays is entirely down to her but that whatever decision is made you have to accept the actions that come with it. It takes 2 people for a relationship, and I've all I've needed to say about where I stand, she has just as much choice so what she wants is down to her.

exBPDgf, was generally ok with this though I did detect some sadness when I explained I had other plans and then she suggested we do something later in the week because she has offered to bring her boss up this way for a meeting she has. I said that sounded like a good idea and the we could do that.

Several phone calls later and she called in absolute tears, the only time I heard her cry like that was yesterday and she was not in a good way. Said that the pain in her chest was so intense she thought she was dying or wished she was dead because she couldn't deal with the pain.

I sat on the phone with her, told her it was ok to let it out and that she wasn't alone and that I was right there with her. I asked if she wanted me to go down to hers so she didn't have to feel alone right now but she is overtired and just wants to try and sleep. Instead, she is panicking about being alone in the house tomorrow afternoon so I suggested we go out for the day, have a walk around a park and do something fun through the day which right now she has agreed would be a good idea.

Some of the words she said during her meltdown have struck a chord. She wanted to know why I'm so kind to her despite the nastiness she has put me through. She was also on the verge of telling me she did something horrible to me through December (the affair) but broke down so badly, she couldn't get her words out. Instead, I told her that December was last year, this is a new year and a fresh start and lets just focus on the here and now. This calmed her down and we started talking about the good things, I told her I was proud of what she has accomplished this month with her bills, that I was proud of how she handled the stress of Christmas and that she did a fantastic job overall. Explained to her that I got the theme of her presents to me (and was right) which cheered her up a little and calmly soothed her off to sleep.

Before she went, she asked that I don't leave her because the 2 days NC have been the worst 2 days of her life (taken with a pinch of salt but heartwarming all the same) and then off she went to sleep.

Sp here I am, wide awake in case the phone goes again. Head racing and adrenaline pumping after calming down a raging beast, even though none of the comments were nasty. Back to where I was last week with wondering how and where things stand and still putting on an act of caring but indifferent, despite everything in me wanting to jump in the car and race down to her.

In between all of this, I've had my mother on skype trying to guilt trip me over an article I sent so she can better understand exBPDgf's behaviour. In there it states FOO issues usually surround men in relationships with pwBPD and given this is my 2nd go around, she now feels it's all her fault so is projecting the guilt back on to me for her being a "bad" mother. So I've had to soothe my mother tonight too and explain that she wasn't a "bad" mother, that the article does carry some truth but that if I felt she was a bad mother, we wouldn't have the relationship we have now. She was upset that none of the "blame" lies with NPD father, to which I explained that he is gone from our lives, lots out on so much and that if he was shown anger towards him it would still show him he had control, that his punishment is indifference because he has lost out on so much.

And then my friends tonight, one is going through a rough time with his gf too and the other is a recovering alcoholic with PTSD. I love my friends and they have been there for me as I have for them. However, tonight in all was a bit too much of an emotional overload for me and completely draining. Looking forward to Wednesday now where it's Therapy and a couple of hours in the gym to release some of that built up frustration.

[Mutt]

exBPDgf and your mom in the same night. It's a lot. T and gym will do some good.

[patientandclear]

Ripped ... .IBYKWIGTS*

I don't get this.  "My feelings are what they are and I've rooted myself in one place, and it's entirely up to you whether you come or go."

Are your feelings really not affected by her affairs?  That you very very very recently discovered?

Are you just there if she decides to claim you?

If you are intending to send a message of such unconditional availability, I'm anxious for you, that you are buying yourself a murky snarl of hurtful stuff you are kind of tolerating.  Do you have boundaries pertaining to her behavior?  Did she cross them already?  What are the consequences -- just that you injected a little uncertainty into the status of your relationship?  (That's not usually helpful with anyone, let alone someone with BPD.)  That you might or might not be available on any given evening?  Are you wanting to communicate that you are OK with what has happened to this point (that was December, this is a new year) but it better never ever happen again?  (That is usually a weak message that people have a hard time believing.)

If you were not intending to say you will be there unconditionally if she decides to claim you, you may be sending a confusing message.

Do you think she's getting a clear message from you about what you need?  About what the conditions are under which you want to be in a r/s with her?  You say that you've said everything you have to say about where you stand.  But your actions seem to be telling a very confusing story about where you stand.

From this story it is pretty hard to tell that she is your ex.  She says "don't leave me, the two days of NC were the worst of my life."  As you note in your title, you did rush in and save her in a myriad of ways.  Your role here is pretty parentified (I hope you don't mind my being blunt).  What this isn't, however, is a relationship with an ex.

I said it once above, but I just want to reiterate that injecting uncertainty and doubt into your status isn't the same thing as communicating a boundary.  It's sort of the opposite.  It's "I don't like what you did so I'm going to make you wonder what I'm willing to be to you" (murky tangle) rather than "I am going to be super clear that because X happened, I am doing Y, and will persist in doing Y unless Z occurs."  Or "because X happened, I don't feel safe enough to be intimate with you.  I really regret that it came to this, as I loved being with you."  Or "I can forgive past instances of X but it is super painful for me.  If X ever happened again, I would Z" (various sorts of clear boundaries).

Maybe I'm missing key discussions you've had that were instead as clear as I'm urging, and if so, sorry for getting all pedantic on you





* I Bet You Know What I'm Going To Say (for other readers)

[sweetheart]

Ripped Heart I just want to echo what patientandclear said really loudly and then say that your actions and words to your exgf tell her that cheating on you is ok. She even checked you out on it and you said, (not a direct quote but), oh don't worry about that this is a  new year we'll forget about what you did last year, I don't mind !   Hello what are you doing here?   

Yes this is the undecided board and it's also the place to put in place changes to how you are going to do things  differently should you choose to return to this relationship. Hopefully your T will help you reflect and work through what has come up for you.

My post is meant with concern in the hope that you can find ways to protect yourself from being hurt again. My concern is that if you continue on this path you are heading for more hurt.

[Ripped Heart]

Many thanks for the response guys, as always patientandclear to kick my ass when it needs kicking and you too sweetheart 

In answer to the question, yes my feelings are affected by recent events and yes, I do feel that perhaps I'm casting aside my own personal feelings for those of someone else. It's very difficult for me because it's all I've ever known, it's how I've been trained and programmed and whilst I do recognise this now (a huge step forward for me) it's a very difficult cycle for me to break at this point. Kind of like an addiction in one sense, so again I have to be honest about what I know, what I understand and what I feel, even if I know it to be completely wrong, I find myself relapsing back to what I feel comfortable with right now.

It's a constant internal battle I have where logic always seems to prevail, regardless of whether it makes sense to others, or whether it is the right thing to do. It's how my brain interprets it and that's where I feel I need the most work. Because I do understand and that's why I value opinions and concerns such as PatientandClear because they do make sense and it also helps me gain perspective.

I think I could relate as an army medic because although things didn't make sense, there were clear and defined rules. For example, in the middle of a skirmish it was all about survival, the enemy were trying to ensure you didn't survive and you were doing your best to survive. The moment an enemy soldier went down wounded, he was then a casualty and no longer the enemy. He went from being the person trying to end your life to being the person who needed you to save his. Someones brother, father, son and your mindset had to switch just as quickly. Was it right? I don't know but that was the rule. You could heal him and 2 weeks later he takes out half of your friends, so it was a constant battle between doing the right thing and your own thoughts and feelings. The way I would view it was that other person was following orders in very much the same way I was.

Growing up with Aspergers, I know what it's like to be different, I understand some of the coping mechanisms of a pwBPD, though theirs is based on emotion and mine on logic, there has still been an overlap. I know what it's like to have black and white thinking, although I have the ability to process and move away from that, I know what it's like to have entirely different coping mechanisms that others might not understand. So to a large degree I can empathise though that doesn't mean to say I always agree. I've come a long way from the boy who used to do everyone's homework because I had abilities well above my age. I didn't know or understand it was being used, but it didn't matter anyway, it was about acceptance. I gave people what they wanted and in return they left me alone until the next time. As an adult, I do understand that I'm being used but it's been the same for me most of my life and I don't know any different. It's very difficult for me to express my wants and needs if I've always taken care of my own needs or don't even have any wants of my own. Again, something I have to work on.

In terms of the affair, yes it does affect me. But then I start to think that I've never cheated on anyone, I don't understand what would drive someone to do that so without knowing or understanding, is it possible to actually judge another for the way they cope and deal with things. Something such as last night, just hearing the way she cried and described the pain and agony she was feeling. I know it's about her and I know she has done something that is really hurtful to me but am I right to hold her accountable? Hearing her pain last night, she is already doing that to herself so is it right of me to add to that.

We all make mistakes and again it's something I know all to well how it feels. My mother hasn't let things slide of things I did when I was 5 or 6. I'm still held accountable for them now and it's constantly used against me as a guilt trip. For example, I once through a ball in the house and smashed an expensive vase my mother had bought. We had very little money at the time and it was a big thing for my mother. Over 30 years later, I still get reminded of how hard she worked and that through an error of judgement, I took something valuable away from her. So yes, in the same way that exBPDgf offloads on to me, I've had a lifetime of my mother doing the same thing. I've had the responsibility of my parents divorce put on my shoulders over the years, felt the resentment from my mother because of being different and like I was always a burden for her. I guess in some ways, my actions are to try and do the opposite of that because perhaps I have too much empathy towards exBPDgf because I know what it's like to be different and have nobody understand.

This is where it gets difficult, because I haven't been unhappy. The events of my own life have caused me to push myself way beyond my limits and as a result accomplished things that others could only dream of. I haven't sat and wallowed or blamed the world for my own struggles, instead used the strengths I know I have to accomplish goals and dreams. I just seem to have an issue where it comes to my weaknesses. Because despite all that has been achieved, it doesn't feel complete without having someone to share those experiences with and it does get lonely when you feel like you are on a strange planet observing it all through the glass.

PatientandClear, you have mentioned a few times now about me not sending her clear messages and I know you are correct. That's more on me though because I don't know my needs. I take care of my own needs and what I need from her is for her to be happy (which I know is wrong) As for being confusing about where I stand. Again, I think you are totally correct, I know where I want to stand but the impression I'm giving out is that I'm saying, I'm going to stand on this shelf until you want to take me down again.

Obviously I don't want things to continue the way they are, I know that it is no good for either of us and that I'm enabling her behaviour. I know my own role in this and I also carry guilt for it too. Sometimes it feels like I want her to continue to feel the way she is because then I have someone to rescue but I no longer want to be a rescuer. I can't pull away just like that because I know it won't do me any good. It has to be done in a safe, secure and complete way in order for it to work successfully and that's where I need a lot of help in therapy because I haven't quite got the grasp of that part just yet.

Reading and understanding views and comments made make perfect sense to me, applying it practically is what I struggle most with and also being able to communicate some of that across. It will get there eventually, because it is something I desperately want and need to do, it's just a whole new learning curve for me and I need to continue to reprogram my brain to adapt.

[patientandclear]

Ripped: I understand feelings are tough! And persistent! As are life-long patterns and coping mechanisms. You have a LOT of insight into where yours come from--it's such an asset for you.

Two thoughts after reading that post. One is to urge you to consider that being used is not the same as being loved. Both feel like "being wanted," so it's confusing.

The other is to ask if you trust her not to hurt you repeatedly. If not, what are the implications of that. And some related questions: if you don't trust her not to hurt you repeatedly, are you taking steps to protect yourself from getting hurt, since she's not? Steps other than ignoring your hurt, which I detect has been a huge coping strategy for you during your life?

[sweetheart]

Hello Ripped Heart,

What you have in abundance is insight into your behaviours and feelings and that is a fantastic starting point. You also have a T  this will help you untangle and explore your core issues. It's a long slow process, and for me I spent many years in therapy before I met my dBPDh and I still ended up marrying my father! 

As long as you keep posting then we can ring any alarm bells for you as you continue to try and make sense of what is going on. Take it easy.

[Grey Kitty]

From this story it is pretty hard to tell that she is your ex.  ... .  What this isn't, however, is a relationship with an ex.

I'm new to your story, and I gotta admit that I was kinda snowed when I started reading--I really wasn't sure she was your ex!

 I know all too well how easy it is to check out on your feelings around something like this. Engaging with my own feelings is my biggest struggle right now. Using logic as a way to stuff the feelings is something I've done for decades myself.

Hang in there, and try to stay with your feelings as much as you can. 

[Ripped Heart]

I say ex because on New Years Eve, it was finally over, I said it and she said it. 3 days of NC and I started getting the suicide threats and she was desperate to make things work. In truth I honestly don't know if there is a relationship or not. If I get too close, it's like I become a stranger, if I get too distant, it's like she's my gf so honestly, I don't even know myself right now.

3 days now of calls in the early hours of the morning where she has cried and cried, feels so much pain to the point she wants to die. So tonight I drove down there and took her out for dinner. She cried most of the time, couldn't look me in the eyes but needed to hold my hand, hug me and not let go. At the end of dinner, I drove her home, made sure she got back in safely and then left. Didn't stay and it went no further than that.

She has invited herself over to mine next week for a few days so I guess we will see how things go. I got the feeling tonight that the affair wasn't a replacement, it was done out of anger to get back at me and she really is carrying a lot of pain over it. It was unspoken again tonight but I can see in her face she really is suffering internally and there is no way I'm going to add to that.

What she did say tonight is that nobody has tried to understand her in the way I have tried and that makes her really sad for some of the things she has said and done. She also said that where others have screamed and yelled at her, hit her or verbally abused her, I've treated her with love and kindness and there are times she has wanted me to yell at her because she feels she deserves it which is why sometimes she tries to provoke a reaction. She says something nasty and I try and comfort her which then makes her feel bad for saying something nasty.

She says she so desperately tries to hate me because she might suddenly start feeling irritated or angry, not at anything I've done but out of fear that I'll leave her for my ex. My ex is a huge issue for her because we get along really well mainly because of d14. She feels jealous because I have a history and because I have an attachment to exgf through d14 and we have no children of our own, she doesn't feel deserving of me. It's why in the past she has been sad because she really wishes her children were my children because then we would have that connection and she would feel safer. I think it's because she knows that if it ended, there is nothing tying me to her and fears the abandonment.

So yes, tonight was all about her and also exploring my own feelings about whether it's time to give up or whether I have it in me to try and keep this going. As it stands, I do want to keep going but I also need to strengthen and protect myself too.

What did I get out of it? I gave her the money for her d17's 18th birthday present on Monday so yes, I rescued her tonight too. However, instead of me offering that up, she asked if it would be ok instead. In a perverse way I see that as progress for both of us because I didn't jump in and also she felt like she was able to ask. I've already told her that if I can help, I would but if I do say no, it's not because I don't want to but because I can't. Financially, I earn in a month just short of what she earns in a year so it's not like a huge amount given tonight, it's more about that she can deliver on what d17 wants for her birthday and she has offered to pay me back at the end of the month, which this time I will hold her to.

[Grey Kitty]

Ripped, the present state of your relationship sounds kinda murky.

If I get it right, she is falling apart and traumatized... .mostly because you and she agreed to break off your r/s and you went NC for 2-3 days.

You give lots of details about the support she needs and how you gave it to her... .which would sound pretty reasonable and healthy if you were in a r/s with her.

You sound very worried about what she's up to, how she's doing and probably what she wants.

What YOU want with her in the future?

[Ripped Heart]

Grey Kitty,

I discovered on New Years Eve that she had cheated and ended the relationship, December was a difficult month of push/pull anyway. Started at the beginning of December when I saw my youngest daughter for her birthday. BPDgf didn't like it because my ex was also there so immediately felt jealous and threatened, she ended the r/s out of anger and fear I was going to get back with ex, but then backtracked when her friend talked some sense into her.

I then found out that she had told her friend she wanted to end the r/s anyway but didn't know how, so told her that all I want is for her to be happy so opened the door for her to leave without any regret or remorse. That night I left her house and went back to mine and the following morning she was devastated. She thought I'd slept on the sofa and when she realised in the morning I'd gone, she was beside herself and didn't want the r/s to end. However, later that evening, she met a guy in a bar and went back to his house out of anger (didn't know this until New Years Eve)

Then followed a month of push/pull and by Christmas things seemed back on track, she was slightly dysregulated and stressing over Christmas only for her to end up upsetting d20 on Christmas Day. That didn't help and she asked if I would leave the day after because she was depressed. I did and she was hurt and upset that I actually left which then drove her into the bed of same guy again on New Years Eve. I found out and ended r/s and then later that evening she also decided her heart was no longer in it and that it was over. At that point I went NC and it remained that way until 3rd Jan. I don't think the falling apart was as a result of me going NC, I think that was just the tipping point, it had been building up all month and the fact I followed through on NC is what finished it all off.

Got a message through to ask for an address to post some things back to me, sent the address, got another message asking to talk, said there was nothing to talk about, got a suicide threat through, agreed to talk, got told she forgot what she wanted to say, I said I need time and space to heal and she remembered what she wanted to say. Since then, she has been devastated every night and constantly on the phone. She has invited herself over a couple of times this week and I had other plans with friends so tonight I agreed to take her out and that's where things are right now.

Apparently the 3 days NC made her realise that her heart was really in it but I'm not buying that right now. I know what she is up to, since I went NC she has been laid in her bed in too much pain to do very much. She was in work the other day but ended up going home early because she isn't coping very well right now. As for how she is doing and what she wants, I think I am putting those first right now, because I don't know any different.

As for what I want with her in the future, I'm still working on that right now. I would love for things to work out but I also have to be realistic and in order to get anywhere I need to heal otherwise it will just become an endless cycle where I'm enabling the behaviour. I need to focus on myself and getting myself right to think that far ahead but as much as I try, I can't stop jumping in and saving her right now and that has to stop.

[SlyQQ]

Cheating on me is about number ten on the list of bad things my ex BPD did to me if something like this is really bad for you you should consider things closely especially if you " are going back in"

[Mutt]

I can't stop jumping in and saving her right now and that has to stop.

The first step is always the hardest.

[Grey Kitty]

I can't stop jumping in and saving her right now and that has to stop.

I found your topic title to be very telling... .and I'm inviting you to have a little fun with it.

... .and then I put on my cape and jumped in to save her

Can you give a name to the superhero role you are playing?

What is the emblem on your chest?

[Ripped Heart]

That's a really good and thought provoking question grey kitty 

I wouldn't say it's 1 particular superhero because it's made up of many different aspects. Ultimately though, it feels more of a parent than it does anything else. I'm parenting an adult child who is perhaps more than capable of taking care of themselves but either chooses not to or as I've witnessed, has no faith in their own abilities at times. I actually have more of an adult conversation with d14 than gf44, and d14 requires less soothing too.

However, I'm expected to be superman. Indestructible in every sense, bullet proof that even the nastiest comments can't penetrate me. Able to read minds and hear thoughts from miles away, to fly in and save the day by sensing danger before it even happens. To be there when called or needed day or night.

Then there is the batman element, to hide in the shadows, act when called upon and then cast back to the shadows when the job is done. All of which the purpose it to operate so that I'm unseen in helping her out to make her look good and capable of doing it on her own so nobody suspects there is anything wrong.

As for the symbol, It's probably a big shiny cash sign as that's what comes in to play most of the time. From sorting out her bills, to buying her a car, to giving her the money for her children's gifts, to taking her out and dining in restaurants, to weekends away and doing other fun activities.

All of which I cannot put the blame on her because those are the things I do and that's my role within the relationship.

[Mutt]

However, I'm expected to be superman. Indestructible in every sense, bullet proof that even the nastiest comments can't penetrate me. Able to read minds and hear thoughts from miles away, to fly in and save the day by sensing danger before it even happens. To be there when called or needed day or night.

Then there is the batman element, to hide in the shadows, act when called upon and then cast back to the shadows when the job is done. All of which the purpose it to operate so that I'm unseen in helping her out to make her look good and capable of doing it on her own so nobody suspects there is anything wrong.

I like that contrast.

Superman and Batman. One has a light or good tone, whereas the other has a darker and edgier tone.

Life is somewhere in the middle - the grey area.

You save kids and animals, you don't save adults.

[Grey Kitty]

I've been thinking of other (potential) superheros as well. A while back, FormFlier mentioned the adventures of LogicMan(tm) (who he channeled with his wife before he learned what invalidation was... .to ill effect!)

I heard this while chatting with a friend once: "Holy Invalidation, Batman!" It made me think of old cheesy Batman comics and Saturday morning cartoons (not the Dark Knight version) with REALLY cheesy arch-villains. I kinda ran with it and am now trying to imagine the epic battle between these two:

The villain: "The Invalidator"

The superhero: "CoDependent Man"

I'm afraid the "$" on the chest fits well on CoDependent Man, instead of Superman or Batman.

[Ripped Heart]

Most definitely co-dependency issues which are very frustrating to me. I can break free of them but all it takes is a crying gf and my heart is straight back in there to rescue her.

It's funny you should mention LogicMan, I recall in ancident with exN/BPDw because she would constantly use my Aspergers against me. Highlight my flaws and weaknesses as to why I would never be good enough for her. In one of her rages, she handed me a letter she wrote to me telling me she wrote it in a way I would understand because is was void of all emotion and purely based on logic.

I read it, told her that was brilliant (I knew she was trying to get a reaction out of me) thanked her for her attempt to understand me and that I appreciated the effort she had gone to. If steam could have come out of her ears, it would have done. She simply exploded in a way I've never seen before. I suspect it was her attempt to ridicule me, for me to bite and then for her to justify that I was the angry one. She would often scream at me for not validating her feelings but by this she actually meant, taking responsibility for her feelings. She saw me as a monster, tried her best to prove it and when it didn't work, would rage at me because she wanted me to admit to how she was feeling.

BPDgf is very different in the sense that she has said some nasty things to me to try and provoke a reaction but only once to the point of raging at me. That's the part I find most difficult, she's raged about other people. Told me that she desperately wants to hate me because that's how she is feeling but that she knows I'm the nicest guy she has ever met and that's what causes her internal battle. She wants to paint me black but can't and when she does something to provoke it or an action that she knows will hurt me, she feels so bad about it afterwards because she knows I didn't deserve it.

So in terms of your epic battle, I've been there with exN/BPDw and learned to play the game. Maybe it wasn't fair on her but there was no way I was ever going to give her the ammunition so it was almost a 2 year epic battle with no winners or losers at the end of it and it very almost was a fight to the death