Questions with only one correct answer

[Hmcbart]

Does anyone else deal with questions from SO that can only be answered the way the person asking wants it answered?

My w will ask a question, usually when she is upset or frustrated about something, that can only be answered to confirm her thought. The first question is usually the only one that can be answered with your own true opinion or thought. The subsequent follow up questions are phrased in such a way that answering them with your true thoughts make you A) look like and idiot or B) confirms or validates her thought on the subject.

If you choose option "A", you get a follow up about why you would be so stupid. Choosing option "B" leads to the next question of, "then why would you answer it the way you did the first time?". It's kind of like watching an episode of Law & Order but you the defendant (guilty until proven innocent).

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[formflier]

 

I think I deal with stuff like this... .and... .my tactics are to refuse to participate... .or ask for help in clarifying the ojectionable part of the question... .because I don't understand it.

This is actually easy... .because I truly don't understand.

I used to deal with "questions with a premise... ." 

"Why are you so mad at me... ? " 

These used to twist me into all sorts of contortions and JADES... .I would invalidate her by "proving" that I wasn't mad.

Now... .I have found it effective to counter with

"Are you asking about my emotions?"

Key is to stay calm... .and if they ask... .answer directly about your emotion.

If they make claims about "knowing" your emotions... .I ask for help understanding how they know their information... .since I haven't been asked about my emotions... .and I am not mad... ."so... .how is it that you know my emotions better than I do... ."

Now... .be careful with this.  Back when I was reactive... .and would really fight... .she would get a rise out of this... .and I think it encouraged her.

Now that I'm even about it... .and clearly point out... .without saying it... .that she hasn't asked about my emotions... .and can't read minds... .that frustrates her... .and I can see this line of attack growing less from her.

I also use it to ask her is she is trying to be empathetic with my actual emotions...

I had the dumb luck... .about a month and a half ago... to have my wife tell me that I invalidated her by asking a question. 

Yep... she used the word invalidate... .  No idea where she got that... .but I jumped on it.  We had MC soon after... and I made that the focus on the session... .because I stressed that i DID NOT want to invalidate her feelings.  Which allowed to to rhetorically ask is she wanted to avoid invalidating my feelings... .she grudgingly agreed.

And... .I'll say... .seems to have been grumpy for a while about this... but sees to be more accepting now of not invalidating me by claiming to know my emotions.

Long winded... .did this help... .give you ideas?

[Hmcbart]

Yes, I wasn't sure if this was unique to my situation.

Once during and exchange I asked her why she kept asking the same question. She said they were all different questions. I tried to explain that they were technically worded different but about the same subject. I told her that as soon as I answered unsatisfactorly she would rephrase and re-ask the question. If I changed my answer to the one she was trying to get me to say, that answer was then used for the basis of my guilt for what ever happened.

I finally stopped playing the game her way. I started making up answers that had nothing to do with the question. I guess I just changed the game and created my own rules. It only ever served to push her further to the point of raging. I was usually laughing by that point because of how ridiculous it all was. *safety tip #1- never laugh when they are on the verge of raging!

I have unfortunately heard my 12 y/o do the exact same thing (without the laughing). I told her one night after we had a blow out that her was doing the same thing I do. I told her when she doesn't like his or my answers to her question she will ask it in a way that we can only give her the answer she wants. That didn't sit well either but at some point I had to say something to make it stop.

Now as soon as she starts the questioning I will ask if she wants my answer or hers. This doesn't make things better but does shut her down long enough to keep her from exploding. She will be silent for a day or two then we get a break or it starts over with something else.

It's very difficult sometimes for me, I am a natural smart a$$ and will unintentionally say something that I shouldnt. At times I have too if it only serves to make me laugh, I need the laugh to hide the hurt that often follows the explosion of words.

[formflier]

   I asked her why   

Hey... I love discussing tactics... .especially when I find they work for me.  I have stopped using "why"... .  Sounds very courtroomish.    I now will say... ."help me understand... .xyz"... .say it very gently... evenly.

She said they were all different questions.

This is what I call "probing" for information... .see if you can turn it around... .and ask open ended questions... .ask about emotions... there is something there to validate.  Some fear (most likely) that is triggering them to probe... .

I tried to explain

Stop explaining... .  anytime you think about explaining something to a pwBPD traits... .SLOW DOWN.

You have to go in a much more roundabout way... .express your understanding of a situation... .ask them for theirs... .watch out for them to misconstrue your "understanding"... .they may want to "bait" you.

  *safety tip #1- never laugh when they are on the verge of raging!

Been there... .done that.  Read the lessons here... .what were you most likely doing to her... when you laughed at her?

  I told her when she doesn't like his or my answers to her question she will ask it in a way that we can only give her the answer she wants. That didn't sit well either but at some point I had to say something to make it stop.

The big theory thing that lots of pwBPD seem to have... .is that they have a hard time accepting that others think differently... .or feel differently.  It invalidates them... .and they "lash out" at those that come to different conclusions.

Getting them to the point where they are aware that others are different... .and that is ok... .is a big step.

Now as soon as she starts the questioning I will ask if she wants my answer or hers. This doesn't make things better but does shut her down long enough to keep her from exploding. She will be silent for a day or two then we get a break or it starts over with something else.

This is good... .I think it can be done better?  might be better to ask directly about her feelings... .find things to validate.  As it is likely that they really don't care about getting the question answered... .the question is likely a result of underlying emotional turmoil. 

Validation might ease that turmoil.  Note... .it won't fix it... .but will help manage it.

It's very difficult sometimes for me, I am a natural smart a$$ and will unintentionally say something that I shouldnt. At times I have too if it only serves to make me laugh, I need the laugh to hide the hurt that often follows the explosion of words.

Being in a r/s with a pwBPD is a choice. It is a choice for us to use tools.  Choices are powerful

Sometimes... .when I'm in a feisty mood.  I don't use tools... .I "react"... .and say exactly what I feel about whatever crazy a$$ stuff she is saying or doing.  Yep... .there is a mess to clean up after that... .and I use tools for that.

It is liberating to know I have choices... .it's powerful to know that I have tools that will help... .

[Jessica84]

Formflier - your "help me understand" approach has worked for me in all sorts of ways. I don't know how your full approach works so I've had to wing it... .some examples: "help me understand what you need from me"... or how I can support you better... .or how you are certain of this... .or what your goal here is... .

I don't know if I'm doing it right, but he's been pretty receptive to it. I say these magic words and he is right on track, happy to clarify. Happy to hear the right question so he can soul-search for an answer. Sometimes he drones on and on and goes all around the bush to figure out what he's feeling or trying to say, but generally it's a good guide for him.

Just wanted to say thanks! I call it the formflier method! In my head of course. He has no idea what I'm doing! 

[formflier]

Formflier - your "help me understand" approach has worked for me in all sorts of ways. I don't know how your full approach works so I've had to wing it... .some examples: "help me understand what you need from me"... or how I can support you better... .or how you are certain of this... .or what your goal here is... .

I don't know if I'm doing it right, but he's been pretty receptive to it. I say these magic words and he is right on track, happy to clarify. Happy to hear the right question so he can soul-search for an answer. Sometimes he drones on and on and goes all around the bush to figure out what he's feeling or trying to say, but generally it's a good guide for him.

Just wanted to say thanks! I call it the formflier method! In my head of course. He has no idea what I'm doing! 

I love it... .!  Thanks for acknowledging me. 

My family T... .that was huge help to me and my family... .coached me on the "help me understand" thing.  I think I had heard it earlier... .but he really... .really... .pushed it hard.  So... I took it onboard... .saw results... and stuck with it.

Hey... .look around for FTC... .French Toast Club.  It's on bpdfamily.  I felt especially evil ... .   when I asked my wife to make me french toast the other day.  She has no idea about this site... .

I grinned the entire breakfast!

But... .the theory of "help me understand"... .is to be non-confrontational... .and it lets them know you wan to "come alongside" them... .vice "confront them"... .with "why do you think xyz"

[formflier]

 

Oh... .yeah... .there is no "full approach"... .I totally make it up as I go.

Many times I focus on not laughing... .or grinning... .as I say it... .ask it.

"help me understand how you believe another family has control of our daughter's choice of a college major... "  (literally... .I have said that after my wife said another family had "taken control" of our daughter.

We worked around it... .and I believe she realized that she was saying crazy a$$ stuff... .and allowed her a way to gently back off a silly statement. 

But... .for theory... .ask for help... .listen... .validate... .validate... .ask for help... .break the issue down into more parts to help understand... .validate...

Then... maybe restate a position and ask if you have it right... .then... if so... .great... .if not... ."help me understand where our positions are different... ."

Yes... .I am very familiar with them bloviating... .

[formflier]

Just wanted to say thanks! I call it the formflier method! In my head of course. He has no idea what I'm doing! 

Ready for a dare!

Next time... .I want you to say... ."building understanding with you... .makes me feel like you are the lead... .and I am your wingman... .thanks for being a nice stable platform for me to fly formation off of... ."

I dare you!

Up to you to make up a good story on where you cam up with all of the "pilot talk".

Note:  Job of the lead is to be stable... .predictable... .communicate well with dash 2... .and anyone else flying formation.

dash 2 flies off lead.  dash 3 flies off dash 2... .dash 4 flies off dash 3... .and so on... depending on how big the formation is.



I dare you!

[Hmcbart]

I know now what I did when I laughed. Even though I was laughing at the situation, it didn't matter. Most of this is not new, been dealing with it for 19 years. Only now have learned that there is an underlying cause. Only now have I found this place and the information to learn to adjust my behavior to lower the chance of anger.

I train people for a living and sales people on top of it. I train them about open ended, closed ended and leading questions. I have never been able to counter her line of questioning because there is no actual logic, at least not to me.

I haven't even tried the validation methods yet. I'm no where near that point yet. I know if I were to try it, the minute I get frustrated, she's got me where she wants me. That's always been my issue, I hate to argue so I will keep backing away until I'm cornered. That's when I will lash out and go right in to defensive mode.

I have tried the get out of the area approach but it makes things worse. I'm sure there are some abandonment issues in there.

You'd think after 19 years I would have found out about this stuff sooner.

Something I was told once and it means more everyday. "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you their with experience". I guess that would need to be adjusted to BPD people instead of stupid, in my case she is the smartest person I've ever met.

[Jessica84]

Another line that works during a rant/rage is a nice calm "I'm listening" followed by some grunts and uh-huh's since he rarely stops talking long enough for me to say anything! I try not to interrupt but we have had whole conversations where I've said less than a few sentences. Usually the less I say the better anyway! Gives me time to gage where he's at mentally, emotionally...

When he starts to go off on wild tangents or gets annoyed or accuses me of arguing with him (even if I'm agreeing with him) I'll toss in a "Help me understand... (fill in the blank of whatever is making me a moron)... ."

Works. Every. Time.

What is French toast club?

[Hmcbart]

I try the listening and uh-huhs and I'm listening. Bad part it most of these interactions take place in the evening... .after my ADD medicine is well depleted for the day. I have to make sure I have the TV off and anything shiny put away or I'm done in about 2 minutes.

[Jessica84]

Hmcbart - don't be too hard on yourself. I've done the laughing thing too. It was purely reactionary from something so ridiculous he said, and so over the top, I actually thought he was joking. That didn't go over well. Well, no, that's an understatement. He punched a wall and screamed at me to leave. He was probably about to boil over anyway, but I didn't realize it. 5 seconds before we were ok, or so I thought. I made things soo much worse. Soo many mistakes and assumptions.

You'll learn so much here. The lessons are very helpful. Go easy on yourself. Baby steps.

Formflier- I'll take the dare. I'm always injecting little tips I learn here. You'll have to tell me where I went wrong if it blows up in my face! Sometimes I feel dealing with BPD is more dangerous than flying a plane!

[Jessica84]

I try the listening and uh-huhs and I'm listening. Bad part it most of these interactions take place in the evening... .after my ADD medicine is well depleted for the day. I have to make sure I have the TV off and anything shiny put away or I'm done in about 2 minutes.

LOL! I don't have ADD but I am a chronic multi-tasker. I have to be with my job, but I'm a busy bee by nature. He once heard me unfolding crinkled up receipts while on the phone... .he got mad and hung up... next I'm getting texts about how rude I am, how I wasn't listening. I was listening to everything he said while mindlessly shuffling papers. What's the problem? He took it as invalidating. So now I definitely don't type, do dishes, touch papers or anything else that could distract me... or at least, things he can HEAR over the phone!

[formflier]

I haven't even tried the validation methods yet. 

Try it... .it will feel clumsy.

Even better... .try it... when things are normal.

Here is a SET... .

wife with nice cup of hot coffee.

Wow... .that is a good smelling cup of coffee (sympathy)

I can see how anyone would enjoy holding that cup of coffee (empathy)

Coffee will help you be ready for your first meeting this morning (truth)

You will feel like idiot... .she will look at you weird... .but... .it is easy way to practice.

Then... .when she is teetering on the edge of a dysreg... .it will feel more normal... .

Listen... .it still feels "forced" and weird... when I do it... .but it does seem to work...

[formflier]

  anything shiny put away or I'm done in about 2 minutes.

My belly hurts from laughing... this struck me... .just the right way...

[formflier]

What is French toast club?

Not sure if this is the thread that started it... .but the main "members" of the FTC is in there.  Join up... .!



https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=239993.0

[Jessica84]

I've stumbled my way thru validating, and still do. It does feel clumsy at first. I felt like a baby calf taking its first steps! Awkward and unnatural. It gets easier with practice, but there's no perfect formula: If you say X, she'll do Y, and everything will be wonderful. It doesn't work like that.

It also ONLY works for me when I'm in a calm state of mind. He has a way of picking up on my "vibe" somehow. If I'm triggered in any way and my "vibe" gets off, nothing I say will mean anything to him. I've learned to tune in to that, and escape from the situation even if only to the bathroom for a few minutes to calm myself, get my vibe centered. That's when I give myself the pep talk: it's not me, don't take him personally, he knows not what he does... .

Before you try it with her, try it out on non-BPs. My relationships with friends and family have improved as a result. Plus, they're safe to test it on, less explosive.

Formflier-- I don't understand your SET example. How does a good smelling coffee imply sympathy?

[formflier]

Formflier-- I don't understand your SET example. How does a good smelling coffee imply sympathy?

Not a direct example... .but just a way to get the flow... .

Sympathy and understanding of smelling good... .are similar. 

The point is... .to try the format... and get used to it... .when it doesn't matter.

Coffee doesn't matter... .

[Jessica84]

Formflier-- I don't understand your SET example. How does a good smelling coffee imply sympathy?

Not a direct example... .but just a way to get the flow... .

Sympathy and understanding of smelling good... .are similar. 

The point is... .to try the format... and get used to it... .when it doesn't matter.

Coffee doesn't matter... .

Gotcha.