Struggling with forgiveness

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

What I nottice is at the core of my patterns is wanting people to see past the thing that keeps them from having empathy.  It is like I am attracted to people and situations where there is a lack of empathy for what ever reason and I want people too see.   It relates to my own desire to be understood and my foo.

I think it is why I am soo attracted to a particular flavor of quiet borderlines I can see them really making a huge effort to see past this thing in the way like a genuine huge effort and it is that drive in them I find so attractive. 

[Blimblam]

What I nottice is at the core of my patterns is wanting people to see past the thing that keeps them from having empathy.  It is like I am attracted to people and situations where there is a lack of empathy for what ever reason and I want people too see.   It relates to my own desire to be understood and my foo.

I think it is why I am soo attracted to a particular flavor of quiet borderlines I can see them really making a huge effort to see past this thing in the way like a genuine huge effort and it is that drive in them I find so attractive. 

[SlyQQ]

Hi Blim hope your well i know for sure BPD dont have a high weight on age or physical appearance of thier partners ( similar to high level aspergers ) there actual parameters are more complicated security ( or their perception of it ) rates very highly is this what you mean?

[fromheeltoheal]

I too am understanding-driven Blim, I don't feel understood fully often, that people don't really 'get' me, and sometimes I just stop trying, and that's OK.  Lately I've been studying Myers Briggs, I'm an INTJ, and learning my type I've become OK with the fact that I never get bored, I live in my head a lot, and I don't really need other people around, although I want them around, but only the right ones; being alone is far better than being with people I don't connect with.  So what I've been doing, for practice and because I've noticed results, is to share my truth openly and honestly quickly, without freaking people out, rapport needs to be there, I call it blurt mode, just to see what happens yes, but also some people really light up to that and a connection is formed.  Still new, still fun, and I'm making new friends.  Onward... .

But what does your post have to do with forgiveness?

[SlyQQ]

Re read your post Blim an i think i get it there but for the grace of god go I right. I agree with this sentiment an always percieved people with BPD in this light My perspective encompasses what i regard as good BPD those who try to cope with their illness an genuinely doing thier best ( which i see in my step daughter despite some spectacular slips ) an those who see BPD as a strength that makes them special an exploit this to their own ends

their is a big difference one has my sympathy an support the other my general disdain though this may have to do with an overlap into ASD and even though they may be ill I find it hard to empathize with a sociopath somethings just need to be quarantined for everyones good ( regardless of how innocent the party might be ) 

[Blimblam]

Slyqq,

Well it is not necessarily just to do with pwBPD.  It is really anytime I see it is not a lack of capacity for empathy, such as a psychopath. It is more like our false self or our own narcisissm and the pattern we are stuck in.  It is like when ever i see, I wish I knew the propper word to describe it. Well the symbol for it is a coiled snake or a coiled snake eating it's tail.  Well when ever I see it i feel drawn to putting myself in the way an if I don't it bothers me and it is like I carry the weight of the that around with me. 

Fromheeledtoheel,

I was looking into Meyrs Briggs too for a bit, i myself am an Infp.  Well, I think it has to do with forgiving the "original traumas," like the thing that is im the way is from traumas I have experienced in my life but if we trace it back to its origins it is a sort of oroginal truama that occurred in history and how it has continued to exist throughout the ages.   Sort of like an "original sin," a sort of fracturing and fragmentation of the self, a fall from grace.

Sorry I've been thinking in terms of occult and religious symbolism lately. 

[SlyQQ]

Painful as it is live an let live or live an let die as the case may be seems a neccasary evil in todays world

[Perfidy]

Blim, can you identify "the thing?" That holds others back?

[going places]

www.amazon.com/How-Forgive-When-You-Cant-ebook/dp/B00DEQAK5W/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1424087370&sr=8-2&keywords=how+to+forgive+when+you+cant

How to Forgive, When You Can't by Dr. Jim Dincalchi

[123Phoebe]

What I nottice is at the core of my patterns is wanting people to see past the thing that keeps them from having empathy.  It is like I am attracted to people and situations where there is a lack of empathy for what ever reason and I want people too see.   It relates to my own desire to be understood and my foo.

I think it is why I am soo attracted to a particular flavor of quiet borderlines I can see them really making a huge effort to see past this thing in the way like a genuine huge effort and it is that drive in them I find so attractive. 

Hi Blim, I find your subject matter here really thought provoking.

What comes to my mind is "Apathy" and "Entropy". 

From Merriam-Webster:

apathy

    noun ap·a·thy \ˈa-pə-thē\

: the feeling of not having much emotion or interest : an apathetic state

Full Definition of APATHY

1

:  lack of feeling or emotion :  impassiveness

2

:  lack of interest or concern :  indifference

Definition of ENTROPY

1

:  a measure of the unavailable energy in a closed thermodynamic system that is also usually considered to be a measure of the system's disorder, that is a property of the system's state, and that varies directly with any reversible change in heat in the system and inversely with the temperature of the system; broadly :  the degree of disorder or uncertainty in a system

2

a :  the degradation of the matter and energy in the universe to an ultimate state of inert uniformity

b :  a process of degradation or running down or a trend to disorder

3

:  chaos, disorganization, randomness

I guess in layman's terms, I'm attracted to creating order out of chaos and like you, Blim, it's roots are deeply entrenched with my FOO; not only wanting desperately to feel understood, but trying with all my might to understand what the heck was happening.  To bring light to this process of degradation.

I feel it happening all around, when something as simple as a negative remark made about a spouse is expressed.  It's as if Entropy is in action and it bothers me, I want to put a lid on it because it's polluting the air  

Does unavailable energy = Apathy?  Is positive energy required to feel Empathy?

Can these be tied to Forgiveness?

[Blimblam]

Well first of all thanks for the responses. And I will check out that link thanks. 

I think we all lack empathy at times when it is in conflict with our "false self."  Essentially our own narcissism or ego the patterns we are stuck in.  I think it is the scape gpaying that bothers me the most, no also when a sort of cultish handing over of power to an ideal that creates groupthink that makes scape goating acceptable behavior.  It is like I feel some sort of obligation to take a stand of sorts.  I have gotten my ass kicked in the past for it when I have been outnumbered, as the times I did nothing because I was afraid of getting hurt haunt me.

The thing in the way is a sort of fragmentation of the psyche.  In my religion I guess it would be considered the original sin.  The creation of the false self that our true essence got trapped in.  I guess the original sin or original truama and fall from grace would be in our life time being born and falling from a perfect state of symbiosis.  Then we spend the rest of our lives trying to get back to that state while adapting to the world in which we live to recieve that nurturing.  On a larger societal scale it's like we can trace back the individual truamas we experienced back not just through foo but from the things in their life that truamatized them such as wars, poverty, prejudice, society and its institutions.  anyway it's like the truama is like really old and basically just gets passed around like a hot potato through out the ages. 

I feel like that's what I'm trying to forgive like it's essentially the original trauma and how it just seems to permeate through everything like a fractal.  Because when it comes to my family logically I can see how it is just arrested development and they can't see past their own frame of how they see the world and the things that led to that.  It is just the way people defend this thing that hurts people. It seems like the happiest people are the ones that just do not try at all to see past their false self enstead utilize it to take advantage of others.

[SlyQQ]

Still strugling to follow Blim sorry got a cross between original sin and vendetta shackling everyone is that right ? Happiest people i have seen round the world are the tibetans they eat rancid yak butter and barley flour ( tastes like sawdust but better han the butter ) its cold as and they live in mud buildings and burn cow dung to keep warm but it makes sense to me

[fromheeltoheal]

It seems like the happiest people are the ones that just do not try at all to see past their false self enstead utilize it to take advantage of others.

Ignorance can be bliss, although taking advantage of people does not make you happy.  It may give a brief superiority buzz, but that is a weak substitute for true connection and love; the need for uniqueness and the need for love and connection oppose each other in the human personality.  An ordered one.  Adopting the belief that humans are perfectly imperfect sits a lot better than the belief we're all doomed to original sin and glossing over it with a false self.  Someone mentioned the other day "isn't life just about getting comfortable with being uncomfortable?"  Well, sort of I guess, don't know how empowering that belief is, but if we're comfortable, we're comfortable, yes?  And the classic 'friends are the family we choose for ourselves' always goes a long way for me.

[going places]

It seems like the happiest people are the ones that just do not try at all to see past their false self enstead utilize it to take advantage of others.

Ignorance can be bliss, although taking advantage of people does not make you happy.  It may give a brief superiority buzz, but that is a weak substitute for true connection and love; the need for uniqueness and the need for love and connection oppose each other in the human personality.  An ordered one.  Adopting the belief that humans are perfectly imperfect sits a lot better than the belief we're all doomed to original sin and glossing over it with a false self.  Someone mentioned the other day "isn't life just about getting comfortable with being uncomfortable?"  Well, sort of I guess, don't know how empowering that belief is, but if we're comfortable, we're comfortable, yes?  And the classic 'friends are the family we choose for ourselves' always goes a long way for me.

Agreed!

[BuildingFromScratch]

Hey Blim, hope you're doing better and better. I think forgiveness comes naturally as a result of healing. You work on your own issues, and break free from the false self more, and process the trauma in a more gentle way, then eventually forgiveness will come.

I've been meditating and following the path of The Buddha, giving up attachments and such. It has really helped me. I've had thousands of images and sounds flash before my eyes. I think it was disassociated trauma leaving me. Now I have waves of anxiety hitting me and the emotions are processing in a healthy way. Along with some euphoric experiences. Without the tools of metta meditation, mindfulness meditation, and Ajahn Brahm on youtube, I would not have made this much progress. I suggest those things, but the choice is yours!

Wish you the best. I know you'll find your own path. Good luck.

[Blimblam]

Thanks all,

Yeah I'll check out those meditations. Meditation has helped me a lot.  When I speak of original sin I guess I sort of mean the original fragmentation of the oneness and everything is basically just a metaphor for that in a million different ways repeating the same pattern like a fractal. 

I guess when ever I see the creation of a collective false self In ignorance it upsets me and to me it is just a false idol. 

There is this movie called "the wave" about a teacher who did a social experiment to show how people can be manipulated into creating a fascist state.  It's based on a true story.  The German remake of the movie is the best version.  In any case it basically just requires an us vs them mentality and briefing them as less than human.  There a number of other steps to create the "us" as a false self and sort of parental figure.  The truth is is happens all the time in a million little way.  It just bothers me because when ever I try to make people aware of what is happening what it is they are doing it hits a wall of their defences.