She's back with parents after 20 yrs. Are they my replacement by proxy?

[PHDnon]

She is 38, two kids around age 10.  The quiet waif, so she doesn't rage... .much  .  Five people in a house with few options to carve out personal space.  It's been four months.  It's a college educated, white collar household.  I know they just put a weekend home on the market, most likely to take the profit to use as down payment on a house for her at some point.

I never figured out a specific thing from her childhood that caused her BPD.  Being a waif, she silently stresses to the max about what the parents say and think.  Mom particularly.  Staying out all night or using mom to babysit isn't going to play well.

Can the parents be a replacement by proxy in this circumstance?  A "redo" of childhood?  In other words, new supply.

Anyone ever seen this turn out well?  I am sure she is "using" them in her mind, and she has a lifetime of experience with them.  Just seems like storing a keg of TNT in a match factory.

[JRT]

As I understand it yes... .

My ex was a waif as  well... .as I was researching what had happened a couple of things bothered me that were not consistent with most of the BPD accounts that I read about here:

-that she didn't rage

-that she tended not to go with a replacement during recycles, in fact, she waited a long time in between romantic r/s's and was actually quite picky

Although mine didn't rage against me, I realized that she raged incessantly against her son... .that qualifies too. Likewise, a replacement does NOT have to be a romantic interest (although it satisfies ancillary requirements and is usually the most convenient in terms of availability), it can also be a non-romantic person to complete the triangulation. In my case it was her son and in yours it looks like it might be one of the parents.

There is an article somewhere here on this ... .let me know if you are unable to locate it.

[Leaving]

Interesting.  I'm not surprised at all that she returned home.  I think if my inlaws lived in a larger house my husband would move back home with them.  Ironically, they would want him to move back home anyway.  They are enabling self serving people who never wanted their children to grow up and become self sufficient or successful.

I do know that once I decided to leave, my husband immediately turned to his family and became good friends with them.  Before that, he was very cold and detached.  I don't know why they would want to go home.  My husband needs someone to serve him and care for him and I can't help but think in his case, it would be a matter of convenience ( mom making his bed, paying his bills, etc... ) like he used me.  I think too that going home is a safer choice than going out on their own where they feel very vulnerable and alone. 

I was always my husband's mother which destroyed our marriage.  I was forced into that role because he's such a child.  Children need parents.

[JRT]

Sure! Its not difficult to superimpose that upon other replacement stories here.

[PHDnon]

Although mine didn't rage against me, I realized that she raged incessantly against her son... .that qualifies too.

There is an article somewhere here on this ... .let me know if you are unable to locate it.

My ex wife was a queen/witch.  This waif threw me for a complete loop.  She seemed to rage incessantly at herself.

In my opinion, they are harder to spot.  Although the circular conversations didn't vary much.

I checked for a link, but haven't been able to locate as of yet.

[PHDnon]

I think too that going home is a safer choice than going out on their own where they feel very vulnerable and alone. 

As soon as she realized I had called it off and was truly gone, she sent me a text that said she could find "another avenue of support"... .a strange comment, since I did not do much financial support for her.  Took a few days but I realized she meant emotional support.  Made me feel like my love was nothing more than pork bellies traded on a commodities market

[JRT]

I found it... .here it is:

Triangulation is an often misunderstood term on this site.  Triangulation as coined by Murray Bowen MD is the “process whereby a two-party relationship that is experiencing tension will naturally involve a third party to reduce tension” (Bobes & Rothman, 2002).

Simply put, when a two-person relationship becomes unstable the individuals will tolerate only a small amount of tension before they involve a third person. The resulting triangle can hold much more tension because the tension can shift around the three relationships.

Bowen's observations are incredible.  We all do this.  Triangles often help us cope.

Sometimes, however, triangulation can cause more turmoil in the relationship, causing further communication difficulties and conflict. According to Bowen''s Theory, a triangle creates an ‘odd man out,’ which is a very difficult position for individuals to tolerate. Anxiety generated by anticipating or being the odd one out is a huge force in triangles.

In calm periods, two people become comfortably close "insiders" and the third person is an uncomfortable "outsider." If tensions increase, insiders more actively exclude the outsider and/or the outsider may work to get closer to one of the insiders. If the tension is too much for one triangle to contain, it spreads to a series of "interlocking" triangles.

A classic example of triangulation is a mother telling her son that his father is treating her badly, rather than facing her husband directly and resolving the conflict. And while this may initially solve the mothers anxiety, the triangulation may create issues in the relationship between the son and the father where the mother takes sides - in effect, there are now two conflicts being triangulated among the parties.

According to Bowen, these three part relationships (triangles) have at least four possible outcomes which are as follows - 2 are good and 2 are bad:

(1) A stable pair can become destabilized by a third person;

(2) a stable pair can also be destabilized by the removal of the third person (an example would be a child leaving home and no longer available for triangulation);

(3) an unstable pair can be stabilized by the addition of a third person (an example would be a conflictual marriage becoming more harmonious after the birth of a child; and

(4) an unstable pair being stabilized by the removal of a third person (an example would be conflict is reduced by the removal of a third person who takes sides).

The triangulation concept is one of eight parts of Bowen's family systems theory: www.thebowencenter.org/pages/concepttri.html.  Bowen's point is that triangulation is occurring all the time - we are all involved in triangles - some good, some bad.

Getting Out  For the purpose of conflict resolution, it's helpful to understand triangulation and to avoid it.  Generally speaking, the first step for getting out of the triangle once you are in it is to identify the original source of the tension or problem and deal with it and not get all caught up the additional issues created by the triangulation.

The way to avoid creating triangles is to be self aware and not be lured by the immediate gratification that they offer. 

The Karpman Triangle further explained the conflict dynamics that can develop in triangulations.  Karpman identified that polarized roles of the participants emerge as one person assumes the role of victim.  He also explained that the roles often shift around in time increasing the conflict among the 3 parties. Staying out of the drama generally means not reacting in kind to the polarized view of the victim or embracing the polarized role in which you are cast. Stay centered. Karpman is explained here: Karpman Triangle. 

Misconceptions  Some members think of "triangulation" as a dysfunctional BPD behavior perpetrated on them by a person with BPD - and why not - this is how we see triangles when we are in them and the '"odd man out" smiley. Seeing it this way is exactly the opposite of what we want to do to end the drama.

Triangles are all around us. This was Bowen's point.  And while it is true that some triangulation can be dysfunctional - triangulation is most often functional or benign.

[Leaving]

I found it... .here it is:

Triangulation is an often misunderstood term on this site.  Triangulation as coined by Murray Bowen MD is the “process whereby a two-party relationship that is experiencing tension will naturally involve a third party to reduce tension” (Bobes & Rothman, 2002).

Simply put, when a two-person relationship becomes unstable the individuals will tolerate only a small amount of tension before they involve a third person. The resulting triangle can hold much more tension because the tension can shift around the three relationships.

Bowen's observations are incredible.  We all do this.  Triangles often help us cope.

Sometimes, however, triangulation can cause more turmoil in the relationship, causing further communication difficulties and conflict. According to Bowen''s Theory, a triangle creates an ‘odd man out,’ which is a very difficult position for individuals to tolerate. Anxiety generated by anticipating or being the odd one out is a huge force in triangles.

In calm periods, two people become comfortably close "insiders" and the third person is an uncomfortable "outsider." If tensions increase, insiders more actively exclude the outsider and/or the outsider may work to get closer to one of the insiders. If the tension is too much for one triangle to contain, it spreads to a series of "interlocking" triangles.

A classic example of triangulation is a mother telling her son that his father is treating her badly, rather than facing her husband directly and resolving the conflict. And while this may initially solve the mothers anxiety, the triangulation may create issues in the relationship between the son and the father where the mother takes sides - in effect, there are now two conflicts being triangulated among the parties.

According to Bowen, these three part relationships (triangles) have at least four possible outcomes which are as follows - 2 are good and 2 are bad:

(1) A stable pair can become destabilized by a third person;

(2) a stable pair can also be destabilized by the removal of the third person (an example would be a child leaving home and no longer available for triangulation);

(3) an unstable pair can be stabilized by the addition of a third person (an example would be a conflictual marriage becoming more harmonious after the birth of a child; and

(4) an unstable pair being stabilized by the removal of a third person (an example would be conflict is reduced by the removal of a third person who takes sides).

The triangulation concept is one of eight parts of Bowen's family systems theory: www.thebowencenter.org/pages/concepttri.html.  Bowen's point is that triangulation is occurring all the time - we are all involved in triangles - some good, some bad.

Getting Out  For the purpose of conflict resolution, it's helpful to understand triangulation and to avoid it.  Generally speaking, the first step for getting out of the triangle once you are in it is to identify the original source of the tension or problem and deal with it and not get all caught up the additional issues created by the triangulation.

The way to avoid creating triangles is to be self aware and not be lured by the immediate gratification that they offer. 

The Karpman Triangle further explained the conflict dynamics that can develop in triangulations.  Karpman identified that polarized roles of the participants emerge as one person assumes the role of victim.  He also explained that the roles often shift around in time increasing the conflict among the 3 parties. Staying out of the drama generally means not reacting in kind to the polarized view of the victim or embracing the polarized role in which you are cast. Stay centered. Karpman is explained here: Karpman Triangle. 

Misconceptions  Some members think of "triangulation" as a dysfunctional BPD behavior perpetrated on them by a person with BPD - and why not - this is how we see triangles when we are in them and the '"odd man out" smiley. Seeing it this way is exactly the opposite of what we want to do to end the drama.

Triangles are all around us. This was Bowen's point.  And while it is true that some triangulation can be dysfunctional - triangulation is most often functional or benign.

That's a great explanation of Triangulation.  At first I didn't understand why anyone would want to bring in a 3rd party but that example of the mother complaining to the son about her husband is what I could relate to because my BPD/NPD mother did this to my brother and I all the time.  She still tries to do that.   I consider 'toxic triangulation'  to be passive-aggressive or covert manipulation in that the person is either trying to gain sympathy, attention or manipulate someone to do their confronting for them. 

[PHDnon]

I see the triangulation she was doing between herself, her ex husband and me.

I guess the parents are taking my place on that dynamic.

Here is what I don't get... .if I had to live again with my queen/witch ex wife for six months, it would literally go south in a hurry due to the emotional damage she caused over nearly 20 years... .under that line of thinking, how does this  waif waltz back into the environment that most likely caused her BPD symptoms?  Seems like it would stir up a whole litany of regressive shame and coping problems.  But that question may simply be an attempt on my part to introduce logical thought into an illogical manipulative process.

[Leaving]

I see the triangulation she was doing between herself, her ex husband and me.

I guess the parents are taking my place on that dynamic.

Here is what I don't get... .if I had to live again with my queen/witch ex wife for six months, it would literally go south in a hurry due to the emotional damage she caused over nearly 20 years... .under that line of thinking, how does this  waif waltz back into the environment that most likely caused her BPD symptoms?  Seems like it would stir up a whole litany of regressive shame and coping problems.  But that question may simply be an attempt on my part to introduce logical thought into an illogical manipulative process.

Yes, I agree with your last sentence. I think you're trying to apply normal neurotic thinking to your ex.  When I say ' neurotic' , I mean a person who is aware and insightful.  From my experience,  BPD people lack personal insight and therefore, don't recognize that they have a problem or that there is a problem relative to them or their families.  My husband realizes that his parents are ' off' but he doesn't really understand how their behavior harmed him.  He makes excuses for them ( they are old, they can't change)  and he pretends to take the high road and say that he's ' over it and healed' and doesn't blame them. I think it's difficult for him to acknowledge that they did anything wrong because then it means he's broken in some way and he can't handle that truth. Aside from all that, it's very common for abused people to return to their abusers and abusive dysfunctional relationships.  After all, it's what they are familiar and comfortable with and they have spent years developing coping skills that enable them to function in dysfunctional relationships. It's the functional relationships that trigger them and make them feel insecure. 

[PHDnon]

After all, it's what they are familiar and comfortable with and they have spent years developing coping skills that enable them to function in dysfunctional relationships. It's the functional relationships that trigger them and make them feel insecure. 

Excellent point!  To use an analogy, they can't stand using the cruise control on the interstate but thrive in a Walmart parking lot on Christmas Eve.

[JRT]

After all, it's what they are familiar and comfortable with and they have spent years developing coping skills that enable them to function in dysfunctional relationships. It's the functional relationships that trigger them and make them feel insecure. 

Excellent point!  To use an analogy, they can't stand using the cruise control on the interstate but thrive in a Walmart parking lot on Christmas Eve.

Mine typified this: she was like a fish out of water without chaos happening.

[Leaving]

After all, it's what they are familiar and comfortable with and they have spent years developing coping skills that enable them to function in dysfunctional relationships. It's the functional relationships that trigger them and make them feel insecure. 

Excellent point!  To use an analogy, they can't stand using the cruise control on the interstate but thrive in a Walmart parking lot on Christmas Eve.

Yikes... .Christmas at Walmart?  I almost had a panic attack!  

One of the things I noticed about my marriage early on was that there were predictable cycles of good days and then bad days and I began adapting to those cycles without realizing how it was harming me.  The cycles would range from 3 good days to two bad or a week on and a week off.  Last year while I was telling my counselor about these cycles she explained to me how a person can become just as addicted to chaos, violence and drama as they can food, sugar, cigarettes or alcohol. The outcome of those behaviors produces the same high in their brains.  My husband has a history of abusing substances ( not constantly though) and everyone in his family has an eating disorder ( mostly over-eating though my husband tends to cycle between binging where he will put anything in his mouth to not eating for a day or two).  Over the last 12 or so months I paid close attention to his behavior/moods and noticed that he would actually become very erratic and agitated and unable to think clearly nearing the end of the ' good' phase and I knew something bad was about to happen.  :)uring his agitated phase he would quickly gorge himself on sugar, tobacco, sinus medicines, yoga or other exercise or have a great need to socialize or bait me into an altercation or all of the above.  Inevitably, he would always end up baiting me into an altercation and sometimes his pursuit became very high intensity like when he would deliberately chase me around the house or office and say things to me or accuse me of things that were so bizarre and untrue and I know he knew that but was just trying to get me to blow up. Soemtimes he would do something horrible with our finances and then say, ' WHAT?  What did I do NOW?" as if I was always accusing him of being a bad boy. Most often he would become dangerously passive-aggressive and do things that would upset me terribly like leaving our front door open all day and we ' accidentally' got robbed or my dogs would get out and I would have to spend hours searching for them.  It was always an ' accident' according to him and I could never prove that he did anything deliberately even though I knew he did.  Unfortunately, spouses and children are abusers safest targets since there are rarely any witnesses.  I was my husband's favorite target because I was the safest person to 'assault' with his passive-aggressive behaviors.  He knew he could unload his repressed anger and rage on me and in turn, enrage me, depress me, anger me, harm me and I would still be here the next day.  After he assaulted me with his destructive behavior, we would move right into the happy go lucky phase and all would be good until next time. He never once acknowledged what he did or sincerely apologized. IF he did apologize he did so like a small child whose parent forced him to say " I'm Sorry" but he didn't even know what to be sorry for.  

The longer we stay, the more we learn to tolerate.  Count your blessings that you're free from the destruction.  Total freedom is all I dream about.

[PHDnon]

The longer we stay, the more we learn to tolerate.  Count your blessings that you're free from the destruction.  Total freedom is all I dream about.

That sounds horrible.  I am sorry 


The relationship that brought me here was with a BPD waif.  I did not see the signs, even though I was married to a BPD Witch for 19 years.  The waif raged inwards, the ex wife raged outwards.  The wife's cycle was every three weeks for over-the-moon drama.  The days in between only reached satellite orbit.

I dreamed of total freedom during my marriage too.  But for me, it took a LONG time to rid myself of the PTSD-like reactions that I developed to insulate myself from the insanity.  My T helped immensely with my stand alone self worth, but I had to get into subsequent relationships to notice how my action/reaction responses were skewed.

I am glad I didn't know about the staying board here.  My marriage needed to end 

[Leaving]

The longer we stay, the more we learn to tolerate.  Count your blessings that you're free from the destruction.  Total freedom is all I dream about.

That sounds horrible.  I am sorry 


The relationship that brought me here was with a BPD waif.  I did not see the signs, even though I was married to a BPD Witch for 19 years.  The waif raged inwards, the ex wife raged outwards.  The wife's cycle was every three weeks for over-the-moon drama.  The days in between only reached satellite orbit.

I dreamed of total freedom during my marriage too.  But for me, it took a LONG time to rid myself of the PTSD-like reactions that I developed to insulate myself from the insanity.  My T helped immensely with my stand alone self worth, but I had to get into subsequent relationships to notice how my action/reaction responses were skewed.

I am glad I didn't know about the staying board here.  My marriage needed to end 

Yeah, I hear ya!  I really don't know how anyone could ever be happy and secure in this type of rs.  You mean you had two relationships with BPDs?  I have PTSD too and I have such a low tolerance now for anything that resembles the insanity that I've endured. I pity any poor man who comes into my life after my marriage because if he truly accidentally does something that resembles what my BPDh has done I will probably spontaneously combust and evaporate from his life in an instant!  You're right about the need to establish new relationships in helping us to recognize how we've changed ( good or bad).  I ended up mostly isolated from all people so, I really need to work on that.  I did however notice bad changes in myself when I began working again a few years ago and when we would have family gatherings or if someone came to visit us. I lied quite a lot to my coworkers to cover up problems in my personal life.  That was difficult for me because I'm not a liar and I hated myself for doing that. It certainly didn't help my self esteem!   I hated that my coworkers would talk about their birthday celebrations and then when mine would come around they would ask what I did and I couldn't say, ' NOTHING' because my husband didn't notice so, I made up some happy story. I didn't have time to attend work functions because my husband always created some drama that would prevent me from going. So, I turned into a liar. Lovely.  I didn't want people to think I was a loser who married an abusive man.  I remember one Christmas when I had completely neglected to fix my hair or put makeup on and when my mother saw me she commented about my unruly appearance and asked if I was ill and it struck me how I had become so accustomed to neglecting myself because my husband always did things to prevent me from caring for myself like creating drama if I was putting makeup on.  It's funny how he always spent two hours getting dressed and fixing his hair on his shaved head but I only got 3 minutes if that!  He always insisted that we have family functions at our home but then he would never help me with anything at all- not even answer the door bell. Another time a friend came to visit and it became embarrassingly clear how I had become tolerant of disrespect from my husband who would not answer any of my calls, not show up for dinner and make us all wait for him, etc... .  My friend said something to me about how I had changed and seemed to tolerate a lot of disrespect and negligence. 

It's very easy to overlook the changes in ourselves when we don't have feedback from healthy relationships.  I'm glad that you are on the road to a better life.  I can't wait!