Enmeshment, Engulfment ... my thoughts

[Sunfl0wer]

I have often been curious about the unusual dynamic between my uN/BPDexbf and his daughter.

I often label the severity and extent of his enmeshment as emotional incest, which I still believe is fair to say. 

Then this label helps me to move on as it is too troubling for me to think of.

However, after thinking about the words enmeshment and engulfment a bit more, I think I have come to a bit more understanding that I did not have.

I have always understood that he was hypersensitive to perceived criticism toward her, because his narcissistic traits would suffer ego injury.

However, what puzzled me always, was how undone he would get over her and I enjoying one another and just bonding.  In my head, him bonding with my son would really impress me and make me love him more as it would be symbolic of us moving towards my desire for "family" where we all would share getting our needs met by one another.

I have always thought that as a result of his undeveloped ego:

He is jealous, therefore also... .

    - afraid he will lose her to me

    - afraid he will lose me to her

    - jealous that I am a "better" parent

    - jealous that he is left out and not getting his narcissistic supply while others are

However, I now am considering that he was also afraid of engulfment!  This never occurred to me, till now, but makes complete sense.

I NEVER considered that he was afraid of LOSING HIMSELF!



Follow me pls... .

So, he has ego issues, sees her as an extension of himself, the "all good" extension of himself. 

He uses her to meet his supply of narcissistic needs. 

In his mind, they are one in the same.

It is just that she is all of the best parts of him in purest of forms.

Therefore, when he feels that I have "offended" her in some way, he swoons in to attack me and destroy me.  (This was always the case, and I understood this and why)

However, the opposite must be true too?

When I was close to her and clearly bonding, he felt engulfed!!

So that is why he would interrupt and try to ruin it!

So wierd!

Did you guys see this before?  Does it make sense?

[fromheeltoheal]

Hmmm.  Well, engulfment is usually used in the context of an intimate relationship between two people, where a borderline, for example, will get so close to someone that they feel like they'll lose themselves, cease to exist, get swallowed up in the other person, a byproduct of having an unstable sense of self that is not fully formed, making it impossible to retain a sense of an independent ego and autonomy.  So that freaks a borderline out, they become triggered, and push you away, only to then feel abandoned and pull you back, only to repeat the cycle.

What I'm hearing is triangulation, which in a simple sense is you bring a third person into a relationship and it changes the dynamic of that relationship.  You might try checking out Karpman's triangle, with it's perpetrator, rescuer and victim, and the roles each of you fulfill, and how they change.  It can get pretty deep, for any group of 3, and then throw a borderline in the mix and things can get challenging to understand.  Take care of you!

[Sunfl0wer]

Hmmm.  Well, engulfment is usually used in the context of an intimate relationship between two people, where a borderline, for example, will get so close to someone that they feel like they'll lose themselves, cease to exist, get swallowed up in the other person, a byproduct of having an unstable sense of self that is not fully formed, making it impossible to retain a sense of an independent ego and autonomy.  So that freaks a borderline out, they become triggered, and push you away, only to then feel abandoned and pull you back, only to repeat the cycle.

What I'm hearing is triangulation, which in a simple sense is you bring a third person into a relationship and it changes the dynamic of that relationship.  You might try checking out Karpman's triangle, with it's perpetrator, rescuer and victim, and the roles each of you fulfill, and how they change.  It can get pretty deep, for any group of 3, and then throw a borderline in the mix and things can get challenging to understand.  Take care of you!

Humm, so... .I did look up, and review Karpman's triangle and I cannot see how it would apply here.

Example:  SD and I are laughing and interacting, exBF notices, becomes visibly upset, makes up some excuse to end our interaction such as sending SD off to do a task, or asks me an irrelevant "important" question that changes the mood,  such as, " how is your friend coping with her illness."

I cannot identify and place all three roles on us for this  type of interaction.  Maybe in the case of sending SD to do a task: he is persecutor, she is victim, and IF I complain, then I am rescuer... .  However, usually, it was a case of him "interferring" and "inserting" himself to "beak up" the intimacy between us both. 

[fromheeltoheal]

OK, well maybe something will jump out, but a simpler version is the dynamic of three people is different than the dynamic of two, especially in that adding one to an existing relationship will change it.  You mention he might be afraid he will lose her to you or vice versa, and what if he loses both of you to each other?  That would be double abandonment in a borderline's head, weird I know, but possible?  And as you mention he's got an undeveloped ego, so plain old high school jealousy might be in play.  My ex said her 17 year old daughter was her 'best friend', which wasn't doing either of them any favors, and as her daughter was maturing she became the dominant one in the relationship, kinda gross really.  And my ex had older kids who grew up and left, so she was very aware that offspring would surpass her and leave at some point, and her daughter was on the cusp of that when I was around, so my ex was fearing abandonment, again, in a big way.  The other piece is my ex was an entirely different person with her daughter around, common for borderlines, and she stepped up her game and became someone I wanted to be with when it was just the two of us, needless to say I didn't enjoy having her daughter around much.  That could be a component with you too; if he's two different people with each of you, who is he when you're both there?  Or is he just anxious and unsure?

[Sunfl0wer]

OK, well maybe something will jump out, but a simpler version is the dynamic of three people is different than the dynamic of two, especially in that adding one to an existing relationship will change it.  You mention he might be afraid he will lose her to you or vice versa, and what if he loses both of you to each other?  That would be double abandonment in a borderline's head, weird I know, but possible?  And as you mention he's got an undeveloped ego, so plain old high school jealousy might be in play.  My ex said her 17 year old daughter was her 'best friend', which wasn't doing either of them any favors, and as her daughter was maturing she became the dominant one in the relationship, kinda gross really.  And my ex had older kids who grew up and left, so she was very aware that offspring would surpass her and leave at some point, and her daughter was on the cusp of that when I was around, so my ex was fearing abandonment, again, in a big way.  The other piece is my ex was an entirely different person with her daughter around, common for borderlines, and she stepped up her game and became someone I wanted to be with when it was just the two of us, needless to say I didn't enjoy having her daughter around much.  That could be a component with you too; if he's two different people with each of you, who is he when you're both there?  Or is he just anxious and unsure?

What you say, makes sense to me and feels familiar.  It doesn't really matter exactly how specific I analyze it, the root of either of these scenarios is the same: fear of abandonment.

The other piece is my ex was an entirely different person with her daughter around, common for borderlines, and she stepped up her game and became someone I wanted to be with when it was just the two of us, needless to say I didn't enjoy having her daughter around much.  That could be a component with you too; if he's two different people with each of you, who is he when you're both there?  Or is he just anxious and unsure?

Now for me, this right here Is exactly what I am bothered by and still struggle with.  I don't know exactly why.  I appreciate that you voiced it.  That means so much to me!  Yes, he is two different people.  When she is around, everyone else is shunned, and he mutates into "super duper daddy."  I wouldn't mind if I thought he was just being a Disneyland dad, but it was more than that, he was being a three year old with a three year old best friend and took on all the attributes of a three year old, but with adult authority doing it.  If they were up playing and I was trying to sleep, He'd have a tantrum if I said keep it down, like I was just plotting to ruin his fun, etc. 

[Grey Kitty]

Perhaps you are overthinking the "why" aspect of this r/s.

If you notice the pattern that he will usually/always do something to interrupt a positive interaction between you and your SD... .be aware that he's doing it... .and think about whether you have the ability/authority to work around it (Don't know your history or how much you have any kind of official/legal role as a parent).

It is definitely immature, unhealthy and ugly behavior. I'm not sure I'd call it emotional incest from how you describe it. When i think emotional incest, I think of treating your child like an adult, and sharing things with your child that aren't age-appropriate... .almost the opposite of regressing to the same age as the child.

I think your first assessment of jealousy was spot-on... .and if he's not even acknowledging that feeling... .you aren't going to solve much by speculating what is underneath the jealousy.

Anyway... .ugh. Do you get any time with your SD when he's not around?

[apollotech]

Hi Sunfl0wer,

Does this triangle make sense:

His actions in the triangle are as Rescuer. He is rescuing SD (the Victim) from you, the Persecutor. If he is jealous of the relationship between you and SD, he is intervening to protect her, while, at the same time, negating his jealousy. She, in his mind, is possibly seen as his possession, objectified. The attachment must be protected against said imagined threat that you pose.