Staying but moving back into the house... not so much

[MercuryHat]

After a great 6 weeks of me thinking we had turned things around, I insisted on giving my uBPDhubby a phone message at an inconvenient (for him) time. He went nuclear - screaming, yelling and swearing at me. This is going past my limit clearly stated before and violently disregarded in this case.

I moved out of the house that night and moved into the itsy bed in the loft in my office (adjacent to our house). It took 18 days, much pressure from the therapist and numerous times of me breaking it down for him for him to finally apologize. At first the apologies were bull___ and filled with reasons as to why he was justified and I deserved whatever he had given me.

Eventually, (as his mood improved) the apologies became more sincere.

In the one month since "the incident", I have stepped back from the brink of divorce. We have agreed that we will keep trying to work on our marriage. But, we are waiting for another appointment with our marriage counsellor (who is away).  We can't discuss things without the cousellor present.

In the meantime I stumbled across BPD a few days ago and my entire perspective and paradigm has shifted. All of a sudden so much makes sense!

We are kind to each other again (tho' I don't trust him to not get dysregulated again... .in fact I know he will) and are even hugging each other again in the mornings and at night before bed (a ritual we established years ago, which I now know serves us well).

But, each night I climb up into the loft and feel so comfortable and cozy. I sleep well knowing that I am in my own space. I am safe from weird surprises at night. I can let my guard down.

I honestly don't know what, if anything, will convince me to leave the comfort of my loft. I am starting to see the inkling that if we are to survive and stay married, it may be by me moving permanently out of the house.

I so much enjoy having a calm place to go to. I so much LOVE knowing that when I am in my office there is not going to be any crazy ___ that catches me off guard and sends me into overdrive hyper/over-functioning crisis mode.

I used to have the house to myself each night, after everyone went to bed. It was quiet and calm. However, when I heard the door to our bedroom door open and he come out to go to the bathroom I always froze. What (if anything) might happen? Just his presence in the room gets me immediately into hyper alert... .just in case.

Having my quiet place to retreat to is such a joy. When I relax I can really relax. It's pure bliss!

We live on 3.5 acres. We have several buildings. The house. My little office. His shop. My art/dance studio.

I don't know the logistics, but I've been finding myself wondering about putting a permanent bedroom (or two) into my art studio (there is enough space). Maybe we can survive as a family, if he and I aren't in each other's back pockets all the time.

Does anyone round here have any experience with staying together, but not living together? Has anyone made such a thing work with a BPD partner?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

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Does anyone round here have any experience with staying together, but not living together? Has anyone made such a thing work with a BPD partner?

Is this really a solution?

I would think any measure like this should be taken as a means to an ends. Like therapeutic separation or parallel parenting which are interim stages of repairing otherwise irreconcilable damages.

[Notwendy]

I don't know if it is a move towards repairing a relationship. However, a loft in a part of the house seems different than moving away to a different house altogether. At least this way, the couple are sharing common living space, meals, and even if the beds are different, can still spend time together at night if that works out.

I can understand this though. Over the years, I find I am still in somewhat more guarded when my H is around than when he is not. It is because of years of accidentally triggering him when I am just being me. I sometimes sleep in a different room, more so lately because he is snoring a lot. He is seeing a doctor for hormonal issues.

This is triggering his abandonment issues I think. As much as I try to discuss the idea that once the doctor comes up with a treatment plan, then we can talk about better solutions. I don't know if he needs a sleep study or hormones, and until we know more, we really can't talk about the best solution. However, all he seems to hear is " we will never sleep together alone and you don't seem to care". I do care, but I also care about us getting sleep. When he snores, I try to move him to stop the snoring. Neither of us get a good night sleep. I sleep much better in quiet and he can snore without me waking him up.

I have found, that when I am alone, I can relax better. I really understand the sense of safety that Dancing Den feels in the loft. However, the ultimate goal is to have strong enough boundaries to feel safe with or without the partner in the room. Is that achievable? I don't known. For now, I hope that my H feels better and we have a remedy for the snoring. For Dancing Den, it may be a temporary solution while working on boundaries, and still spending time as a couple in the same home.

[Verbena]

I don't have any experience with living apart while staying together, but I think you are fortunate that you have a large property with separate buildings so you can get away without actually moving out. 

I have often wished I had a set-up like that.  My husband and I live in the same house but occupy different bedrooms and have for about five years.  We essentially live separately in the same house in that sense. 

I find that when he's home, I am much less relaxed than when he's gone.  I also find that he is almost pleasant on the phone as opposed to face-to-face conversations.  It's being around him that I can't stand. 

So count yourself blessed that you have this arrangement.  I know it's not a solution, but I don't know that there is one--other than divorce.  My husband is not BPD, but he has very serious mental issues that I find intolerable and that he will not even discuss. 

[Ceruleanblue]

Is your husband wanting you to move back in with him, or is he okay with the current situation? I totally understand how you feel tense when you are around him, and how you fear never knowing what will set him off. I live with that too. Things will be find, then you say or do something innocent, it gets twisted, and no matter what you say, they won't believe you, it's THEIR reality only.

Maybe you could compromise, and spend weekends with him, then during the week sleep in the loft? Maybe the marriage counselor can help you both come up with something that feels okay to both of you? If your husband truly is BPD though, it's super hard to get good results in marriage counseling. Even if they agree in therapy, they usually find a way to back out, or do it and blame you, or harbor resentment. At least that has been my experience, and I've read a lot on here where most with a truly BPD partner have very limited success in marriage counseling. Just go in with low expectations, maybe? BPD puts a whole different slant on marriage therapy, because they don't like to shoulder responsibility, and they tend to be hard to negotiate with.

Keep us posted, and hope you come up with a solution.

[MercuryHat]

I honestly don't know how it is working for him, with me sleeping in the loft. I haven't asked as I really don't have the energy (or won't give the energy) to stay present and calm and deal with whatever comes out of him when we try to unpack his feelings.

We're in a kind of holding pattern waiting for our appointment with the counsellor, on Monday. It is not an ideal thing, but seeing the counsellor is vital to my emotional safety, these days. My husband behaves much, MUCH more reasonably with the counsellor as a witness. And, when he cracks and goes down a path about how unreasonable I am about this or that perceived slight I've done to him, the counsellor is there to bring reality back into the picture.

When it's just the two of us, I get lost in the crazy hooks that he throws out, and I take the bait way too easily.

I am still digesting the BPD influence and using SET to avoid fights and sidestep the power struggles.

But, unpacking our feelings and how to move forward... .I'm not able to do that yet.

I'm still super guarded around him. And, with my new reading about BPD I think that might become my new normal - guarded.

He tried to kiss me last night, but I turned my head away. I just can't be present physically if I don't feel emotionally safe.

I don't know how I will get to a place of feeling safe around him. I now wonder if that is even going to be possible?

[formflier]

When it's just the two of us, I get lost in the crazy hooks that he throws out, and I take the bait way too easily.

I applaud your personal insight... .seeing the issue (taking the bait easily) is a huge step.  Effectively changing this behavior in yourself will take time... .but will pay huge dividends.  HUGE. 

He is putting the bait out there for a reason... .he is getting something from your reaction.  Once you control the reaction... .you get some control back in the r/s.  Note:  This may frustrate him... .he may try harder... ."don't take the bait!"

I don't know how I will get to a place of feeling safe around him. I now wonder if that is even going to be possible?

Can I suggest that instead of feeling safe... .a goal may be to feel "confident" in your ability to use  the tools and strategies you have learned at bpdfamily.

What an eye opener it was to survive my first extinction burst.  To be honest:  I didn't at all feel "safe"... .but once I stuck to the lessons... .and it worked... .WOW... .that was the moment I knew I could do this long term... .

That was the moment I had hope again.

How does all this sound to you?

FF

[Notwendy]

In a similar way that FF says, keeping ones sanity during an extinction burst is a big moment.

I started with working on the personal triggers I had learned during childhood. My parents' anger was terrifying. This was understandable as a child. The family pattern was that we kids were enlisted to keep mother with BPD happy- an impossible role and to not misbehave as that would trigger her rages. If this happened, dad would get angry too. Nobody physically abused us, but the emotional fear of my parents' anger was significant.

My H's dysregulations and rages were very frightening to me. Like my parents, he was not physically abusive, but his outbursts were frightening. Also, I accepted his accusations as real and believed his critical remarks.

At some point, after a lot of personal work, I realized that his remarks were based on his feeling, not reality about me. It almost got to where I had to stop myself from giggling at some of the accusations because they were not true, but that would not be kind. The rages have diminished some since I don't reinforce them by enabling. Yet the emotional response- to be guarded is still there, not so much about him, but because sometimes, I just don't want to deal with this kind of interaction.

I do feel calm when I am alone. However, I could still sleep with him and not feel unsafe. He's been snoring for a long time, and I have asked him to go to the doctor to do something. I didn't leave the bedroom to make him do it- I  got to the point that it affected my sleep.   Now, he is getting checked for it and I hope he feels better and sleeps better.   

[lemon flower]

But, each night I climb up into the loft and feel so comfortable and cozy. I sleep well knowing that I am in my own space. I am safe from weird surprises at night. I can let my guard down.

I honestly don't know what, if anything, will convince me to leave the comfort of my loft. I am starting to see the inkling that if we are to survive and

I don't know the logistics, but I've been finding myself wondering about putting a permanent bedroom (or two) into my art studio (there is enough space). Maybe we can survive as a family, if he and I aren't in each other's back pockets all the time.

I guess numerous couples live under one roof but sleep in seperate rooms, for all kinds of reasons, sometimes it's about snoring ;-)

ofcourse this only works when both partners see the advantage, I suspect your husband will probably feel rejected, maybe it would work if you both have your own bedroom but you still spend an "acceptable" amount of nights with him... .

[Notwendy]

I still spend "acceptable" time with my H. It could also be that since I am more guarded around him, that I am more startled easily when he starts sounding like a growing bear in the middle of the night.

There is a fiction novel- I won't be a spoiler by saying more- where the daughter of a dysfunctional mother discovers that her deceased father had a secret apartment where he went to to get some peace and quiet. It may be how some people cope. However, I would hope that being honest about such things is the better route.

[MercuryHat]

FormFlier - Hope sounds good to me. I am lacking it at the mo'

I am so exhausted. And, to be honest, I'm a very blunt person. Beating around the bush is infuriating for me. Diplomacy is something I have been learning the past 2 decades, but it still doesn't come naturally.

The lessons here make sense, but it is so much material to integrate. They make sense on a good communication level. But, I'm still attached to my belief that good marriages are between two equals. That we are both working on and with this stuff.

How do I practice what is in the lessons (empathy, sympathy, good boundaries, patient communication) when I am the only who is practicing them? Isn't that co-dependance? Isn't co-dependance what I'm supposed to be healing myself from?

What about my needs for empathy, sympathy, patient communication, (his) good boundaries? Do I need to turn to strangers on the internet to get my needs met?

Right now, I am starting a new business. This has been in the works for months now and I have some financial support (from outside our marriage) as I focus on my business, for the next few months.

Being the grownup in my marriage (which is the role I've played for 7 years now) is more than I have to give at the moment. I am (supposed to be/needing to be) busy with my business at the moment. It is probably not a coincidence that he is at a low point and "needs" me.

But his "needing" me - that right there is the hook. And I can't take that bait.

What he really needs is himself and every time I step in there he doesn't need to step up for himself. And thus the cycle continues

So, I remove myself. I am practicing doing it compassionately, with empathy and sympathy for his struggles. But, firmly so that I dont' have to stay around for the crazy.

But, trouble is nothing gets resolved.

Last night's skirmish was me trying to ask/inform about me taking a night off this coming week. It went south pretty quick. I didn't ask properly. Something was obviously eating him, but I don't know what. And, I can't ask because he won't admit what is really going on it will be some weird diversion from the truth.

I don't have time or energy for that.

Which brings me to feeling hopeless about our marriage.

When I need to turn my attention elsewhere, or I don't have the energy to be oh so careful (which doesn't come natural to me) it's a mess.


Add to that my own experience growing up in a home with rage (much like NotWendy) and I am fully allergic to rage. I am fine with a good dose of healthy expressed anger, sometimes that is a necessary thing.

But, my hubby thinks anger is bad, therefore the only avenue left for his is through rage.

When I think about our dynamics my head goes around in circles. There is so much that is beyond my control. There is all of his behaviours, his thought patterns, his "stuff" that I have absolutely no power over.

I sincerely try my best, but I am so misunderstood by him. The filters that he has on his ears distort most of what I say. When I get him to repeat it back to me, it is so messed up, all distorted. I empathize that it must really hurt for him to hear that. I sympathize that it is a lousy thing. I try to tell him what I am trying to say and immediately he goes off into what I "really" said - which is the distortion that he's up in arms about. And there the discussion dies.

We take some time away. I try again in a couple of hours. During that time he's been stewing about what I "really" said (his distortion). At no point is there room for what I am trying to discuss.

I just don't have the time or will for this right now. I have a business to get up and running and my own financial independence to launch.

It seems to me that in order to get done what I need to get done that I just need to make unilateral decisions and act on them. This is not what I think/thought marriage to be. But, it is the only way for me to not get paralyzed by the ridiculous conversations.

How can one have respectful communication with someone who isn't able to deal with objective (or multi-subjective) reality? I mean I can use respectful modes of dialogue, but the subjects are never dealt with.

Maybe I need to go from the staying boards to undecided.

[MercuryHat]

Lemonflower, when my hubby and I first got together we discussed several long term couples we know of who live in separate houses on the same land (perhaps this is a rural thing, and unheard of in the city). It's not common practice, but it does happen.

I explained that I think it's a good thing for me. We both agreed that this might be a good thing for us, eventually.

We were thinking maybe after our kids were grown.

I'm thinking maybe sooner!

The only way it would work for me to be in a different house on the same land, is if we ARE together and still married and working on it.

There is no way he would be able to work it if we weren't together.

I think that in terms of his personality, that kind of arrangement would work well.

However, he is a man at war with himself.

There is his beautiful evolved wise being being self. He can deal with his own emotions. He practices his new (since me) skill of speaking up for himself. Stating his needs and preferences.

Then there is the broken shamed part of him who survived his perfectionist father and (perhaps) BPD mother. That part of him is too busy trying to live by the "rules" of how things should be. He has no room for preferences, needs, emotion, or anything that might hint that the tight facade can't be maintained.

So, while his personality could work well with that kind of arrangement. His perfectionist side couldn't - as it would continually pour salt in the shame wound.

I hate shame! 

[OffRoad]

What about my needs for empathy, sympathy, patient communication, (his) good boundaries? Do I need to turn to strangers on the internet to get my needs met?

If it works, it works. If it doesn't, then you know that, too. Some non spouses get their needs for empathy, sympathy, patient communication met my their friend and family network, so they don't need it so much from their SO. Is that the way it's supposed to be? I don't think so. But that's when you have to take everything into consideration when you make your decisions about your life.

Last night's skirmish was me trying to ask/inform about me taking a night off this coming week. It went south pretty quick. I didn't ask properly. Something was obviously eating him, but I don't know what. And, I can't ask because he won't admit what is really going on it will be some weird diversion from the truth.

Here I have to ask. Why were you ASKING for a night off? Why didn't you simply say, "I'm letting you know I'm taking X night off." You can add "to do XXX" or not. And no matter what he says, say "It's a shame that is inconvenient for you, but I'm taking X night off." If it goes south, say that you aren't arguing about it and remove yourself from the vicinity.

I get that you are saying you don't want to have to deal with this. It stinks. You shouldn't have to. He should be a big boy who accepts that you have your own things you need to do. But it is possible that if you consistently enforce your own boundaries, his neediness may abate. You don't get angry, you just go do your own thing. Alone.

I sincerely try my best, but I am so misunderstood by him. The filters that he has on his ears distort most of what I say. When I get him to repeat it back to me, it is so messed up, all distorted. I empathize that it must really hurt for him to hear that. I sympathize that it is a lousy thing. I try to tell him what I am trying to say and immediately he goes off into what I "really" said - which is the distortion that he's up in arms about. And there the discussion dies.

All you can say when they refuse to listen is "I'd be upset if someone said that to me, too. However, I said XXXX. If you choose to hear it a different way, there is nothing I can do." and exit. This has left my H with his mouth hanging open, because I refuse to argue with him about it. I state my position once and only once. H then sometimes has to process for a day or so, but I expect that.

It seems to me that in order to get done what I need to get done that I just need to make unilateral decisions and act on them. This is not what I think/thought marriage to be. But, it is the only way for me to not get paralyzed by the ridiculous conversations.

BBM: For anything regarding yourself and your business, yes. But anyone should do that. I think we forget that in a non BPD relationship, people aren't always looking over their shoulder wondering how their actions are going to affect their spouse. You have something that needs to be done, you ask if there is anything planned for that day. If the answer is no, then you say that you will be gone that day from x to x. THAT'S normal.

[MercuryHat]

Why were you ASKING for a night off? Why didn't you simply say, "I'm letting you know I'm taking X night off." You can add "to do XXX" or not. And no matter what he says, say "It's a shame that is inconvenient for you, but I'm taking X night off." If it goes south, say that you aren't arguing about it and remove yourself from the vicinity.

One thing that sets him off is the "disrespectful" way that I inform him of things. He wants things put in the form of a request. This is something that consistently comes up for us. I am trying to be responsive, thus I was requesting the night off.

However, the way I phrased it was not quite perfect (typical). I said "I was going to take tonight off, but it didn't work out, so I'd like to take another night off this week. Will that work for you?"

Apparently I was supposed to say ":)o you mind if I take off another night this week"

Apparently there is a huge difference between the two and respect is somehow lost in that difference.

(can you spot the difference?  )(doh... .<--that would be my unhelpful sarcasm)

I don't know OffRoad, I really can't explain it.

[MercuryHat]

All you can say when they refuse to listen is "I'd be upset if someone said that to me, too. However, I said XXXX. If you choose to hear it a different way, there is nothing I can do." and exit. This has left my H with his mouth hanging open, because I refuse to argue with him about it. I state my position once and only once. H then sometimes has to process for a day or so, but I expect that.

I like that. I hope I can remember it!