uBPDmom seeking sole guardianship (long)

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

DH and his ex (uBPD) have had joint guardianship of SS20, who has development delays and anxiety, since he turned 18. It took months for DH and his ex to come to a joint agreement. DH's ex went back and forth on wanting joint guardianship, wanting DH to have sole guardianship, wanting to have sole herself and then back to joint.

DH and his ex fundamentally disagree on how to raise SS20. His mom believes he is mentally handicapped and should mostly just stay in her house so he is safe. She is ruled by her fear of abandonment. DH believes SS20 has tons of potential. It took months for them to get an arbitrator in place so that when they disagreed on guardianship issues, a third party could help them come to agreement. She 'fired' two arbitrators before they even started because they didn't side with her in initial discussions. She finally landed on a former judge. But the first time the judge did an arbitration, she fired him after one meeting (he questioned her and scoffed as some of her suggestions.) DH even had a clause in the joint agreement saying one person could not fire the arbitrator, but she found a loophole -- she says the arbitrator is biased and asked him to resign. The former judge told DH his hand are tied but he would stay on until they agreed on another arbitrator. She refuses to deal with this guy or suggest anyone else and so they've had no arbitrator for months.

Now she has decided she wants sole guardianship. And a flurry of letters from her lawyer to DH's lawyer have ensued. DH's ex has sat SS20 down and told him that she needs to be his sole guardian because DH is such a bad father. SS20 is totally stressed by this. SS20 knows his mom's wrath. He tells us (and his mom) that she thinks he's 'stupid' so he doesn't want her as his sole guardian, but he also doesn't want to tell her that. He just wants everyone to get along, and he just wants to be normal and have the freedom his brothers have.

A couple years ago, SS20 went to a special program at a college over an hour away from here, lived in residence with support and then after graduation from the program got a part-time job and moved in to a supportive home (proprietors upstairs provide occasional support/check-ins.) His mom basically left him alone (DH did most meetings with his program, etc.) for over a year. SS20 was doing terrific, until last year when his mom swooped in to "save him". She moved close by (she knew no one in the city, doesn't have a job). Her idea of saving him is to restrict him from doing things (including riding his bike to work, which was what the arbitration was about.) A few months ago, SS20 decided to move back to our city. He was very nervous telling his mom, but called to say when he told her she said that of course she would follow him.

Recently DH's ex was successful in having SS23 (an addict who appears to have a PD) turned completely against DH. uBPD has convinced SS23 that the reason he started drinking (ie the reason he is an addict) is because his oldest brother bullied him when they were kids and DH allowed it. Total bunk but it is set in her mind. SS23 is quite immature, has been in 5 treatment programs since he was 15, and is totally enmeshed with his mom. He is her golden child. She is his enabler -- paying off his drug debts, buying him new wardrobes, electronics, etc. each time he completes a program she picks or when he relapses and comes back to her. It is a totally unhealthy relationship. He has tried to break from her a number of times but ends up back with her when his anxiety/depression get too high, or when he relapses and spends all his money. The last time he relapsed his mom saved him and kept him under lockdown in her house for months before she got him in a treatment program.

I've read a bunch of Dr. Childress's stuff about his views on 'parental alienation' and can see what he describes as happening with SS23. Except that Dr. C talks about it in children, and SS23 is an adult. Reading Dr. C's  material, I suspect DH's ex believes she was successful convincing SS23 of her delusions around DH being a horrible father, she is trying to same with SS20. SS23 even mentioned to DH that one reason he such a bad father is that he pushes SS20 too hard. Pretty much mirrored exactly what his mom would say. Meanwhile, he hasn't been around DH and SS20 much for years.

I have a number of concerns, not the least being that a judge could listen to DH's ex believing she is just an overprotective mom and reprimand her (now, now you must let your son grow up) and send her on her way as sole guardian. DH's lawyer says that's a possibility. Another strong possibility is that the judge sees the battles between DH and his ex and says SS20 should have a public guardian. That might not be a bad thing because then DH's ex would have to battle the public guardian if she didn't like what SS20 was doing. There's also a risk that uBPD pulls her application for sole guardianship and asks for the status quo to continue if she sees a risk of losing. That scenario would leave SS20 and DH in limbo wondering what is next.

There is also a chance this could turn out very well. DH's L is going to push to have SS20 assessed to see if he actually needs guardianship (there are other less controlling options). An assessment could show that he needs a different level of support, which might restrict uBPD's influence. DH may also apply for sole guardianship and a judge could see the ridiculousness of uBPD's claims and rule that DH should be the guardian.

So now what? DH will keep working with his lawyer to determine what's next. Everything rests of what DH's ex decides to do. If she continues with her application for sole guardianship, this will go to court. There will be a full court hearing, with DH, his ex and SS20 having to testify. DH's L says she will ensure that SS20 can testify without his parents in the room.

SS20 is naturally highly concerned. DH has tried to assure SS20 that he doesn't have to choose sides, that he will be heard, etc.  But it will be frightening for SS20 to be in a courtroom saying anything he thinks will get back to his mom. He has lived for many years loving her at the same time he is terrified of her. Recently he said "I hate her" when she blocked him from getting a job. But of course he doesn't hate her. He expressed his anger to us, but likely said nothing to his mom for fear of what would happen.

I am always concerned at times like this that no one in the court system will ever know that SS20's mom has mental health issues. She's undiagnosed as far as we know and is unlikely to seek diagnosis or treatment. She is high functioning and in early discussion with someone can often convince them she is a poor single mother who is just trying to do her best for her special needs son. We have seen this with SS23 when she would meet with his Ts and tell her tales. It would take several meetings before the Ts would figure out something wasn't quite right -- and then she would pull SS23 out of the program. She might appear to be normal in one court hearing.

Any ideas?  (Sorry this is so long.)

[NorthernGirl]

DH and his ex (uBPD) have had joint guardianship of SS20, who has development delays and anxiety, since he turned 18. It took months for DH and his ex to come to a joint agreement. DH's ex went back and forth on wanting joint guardianship, wanting DH to have sole guardianship, wanting to have sole herself and then back to joint.

DH and his ex fundamentally disagree on how to raise SS20. His mom believes he is mentally handicapped and should mostly just stay in her house so he is safe. She is ruled by her fear of abandonment. DH believes SS20 has tons of potential. It took months for them to get an arbitrator in place so that when they disagreed on guardianship issues, a third party could help them come to agreement. She 'fired' two arbitrators before they even started because they didn't side with her in initial discussions. She finally landed on a former judge. But the first time the judge did an arbitration, she fired him after one meeting (he questioned her and scoffed as some of her suggestions.) DH even had a clause in the joint agreement saying one person could not fire the arbitrator, but she found a loophole -- she says the arbitrator is biased and asked him to resign. The former judge told DH his hand are tied but he would stay on until they agreed on another arbitrator. She refuses to deal with this guy or suggest anyone else and so they've had no arbitrator for months.

Now she has decided she wants sole guardianship. And a flurry of letters from her lawyer to DH's lawyer have ensued. DH's ex has sat SS20 down and told him that she needs to be his sole guardian because DH is such a bad father. SS20 is totally stressed by this. SS20 knows his mom's wrath. He tells us (and his mom) that she thinks he's 'stupid' so he doesn't want her as his sole guardian, but he also doesn't want to tell her that. He just wants everyone to get along, and he just wants to be normal and have the freedom his brothers have.

A couple years ago, SS20 went to a special program at a college over an hour away from here, lived in residence with support and then after graduation from the program got a part-time job and moved in to a supportive home (proprietors upstairs provide occasional support/check-ins.) His mom basically left him alone (DH did most meetings with his program, etc.) for over a year. SS20 was doing terrific, until last year when his mom swooped in to "save him". She moved close by (she knew no one in the city, doesn't have a job). Her idea of saving him is to restrict him from doing things (including riding his bike to work, which was what the arbitration was about.) A few months ago, SS20 decided to move back to our city. He was very nervous telling his mom, but called to say when he told her she said that of course she would follow him.

Recently DH's ex was successful in having SS23 (an addict who appears to have a PD) turned completely against DH. uBPD has convinced SS23 that the reason he started drinking (ie the reason he is an addict) is because his oldest brother bullied him when they were kids and DH allowed it. Total bunk but it is set in her mind. SS23 is quite immature, has been in 5 treatment programs since he was 15, and is totally enmeshed with his mom. He is her golden child. She is his enabler -- paying off his drug debts, buying him new wardrobes, electronics, etc. each time he completes a program she picks or when he relapses and comes back to her. It is a totally unhealthy relationship. He has tried to break from her a number of times but ends up back with her when his anxiety/depression get too high, or when he relapses and spends all his money. The last time he relapsed his mom saved him and kept him under lockdown in her house for months before she got him in a treatment program.

I've read a bunch of Dr. Childress's stuff about his views on 'parental alienation' and can see what he describes as happening with SS23. Except that Dr. C talks about it in children, and SS23 is an adult. Reading Dr. C's  material, I suspect DH's ex believes she was successful convincing SS23 of her delusions around DH being a horrible father, she is trying to same with SS20. SS23 even mentioned to DH that one reason he such a bad father is that he pushes SS20 too hard. Pretty much mirrored exactly what his mom would say. Meanwhile, he hasn't been around DH and SS20 much for years.

I have a number of concerns, not the least being that a judge could listen to DH's ex believing she is just an overprotective mom and reprimand her (now, now you must let your son grow up) and send her on her way as sole guardian. DH's lawyer says that's a possibility. Another strong possibility is that the judge sees the battles between DH and his ex and says SS20 should have a public guardian. That might not be a bad thing because then DH's ex would have to battle the public guardian if she didn't like what SS20 was doing. There's also a risk that uBPD pulls her application for sole guardianship and asks for the status quo to continue if she sees a risk of losing. That scenario would leave SS20 and DH in limbo wondering what is next.

There is also a chance this could turn out very well. DH's L is going to push to have SS20 assessed to see if he actually needs guardianship (there are other less controlling options). An assessment could show that he needs a different level of support, which might restrict uBPD's influence. DH may also apply for sole guardianship and a judge could see the ridiculousness of uBPD's claims and rule that DH should be the guardian.

So now what? DH will keep working with his lawyer to determine what's next. Everything rests of what DH's ex decides to do. If she continues with her application for sole guardianship, this will go to court. There will be a full court hearing, with DH, his ex and SS20 having to testify. DH's L says she will ensure that SS20 can testify without his parents in the room.

SS20 is naturally highly concerned. DH has tried to assure SS20 that he doesn't have to choose sides, that he will be heard, etc.  But it will be frightening for SS20 to be in a courtroom saying anything he thinks will get back to his mom. He has lived for many years loving her at the same time he is terrified of her. Recently he said "I hate her" when she blocked him from getting a job. But of course he doesn't hate her. He expressed his anger to us, but likely said nothing to his mom for fear of what would happen.

I am always concerned at times like this that no one in the court system will ever know that SS20's mom has mental health issues. She's undiagnosed as far as we know and is unlikely to seek diagnosis or treatment. She is high functioning and in early discussion with someone can often convince them she is a poor single mother who is just trying to do her best for her special needs son. We have seen this with SS23 when she would meet with his Ts and tell her tales. It would take several meetings before the Ts would figure out something wasn't quite right -- and then she would pull SS23 out of the program. She might appear to be normal in one court hearing.

Any ideas?  (Sorry this is so long.)

[Matt]

NorthernGirl,

Sorry it took so long to get a response.  Probably because of the length of your post (though it's hard to talk about all this more briefly).

A few thoughts... .

First, about SS23 and alienation.  You comment that alienation is usually something that happens with kids - true.  But addicts can be kids.  What I mean is, when someone starts using every day, their emotional growth is stunted, because they don't deal with setbacks by experiencing the emotions and learning from that, they deal with things by "self-medicating" with alcohol or drugs.

My SS35 started drinking when he was 10, and never got sober til about 25 or 26.  So at that age, he still acted a lot like a kid;  emotionally he was probably about 10, though he was intelligent.  I don't remember how old your SS23 was when he began drinking or using something else, but that could mean he is still subject to alienation, because he's still processing feelings like a much younger person.

As for your SS20... .

I think it would be best if you can have a "custody evaluation" including objective psych evals for both parents.  I'm not sure "custody evaluation" is the right term, since he's an adult, but maybe there is something similar that fits.

Your husband should probably propose to be sole guardian, and make a strong case for that, by saying you have tried joint guardianship and that didn't work because Mom didn't cooperate - and maybe some of the professionals who have been involved would be willing to testify to that (or maybe you could subpoena them).

So your case is:

* Joint guardianship didn't work because of Mom's behavior

* Objective psych evals (like the MMPI-2) show that Mom's behavior is due to a psychological disorder

* Dad's psych eval is OK

* Dad wants to be sole guardian so he can make sure SS20 has good opportunities to grow

* Dad will commit to support a positive relationship between SS20 and Mom (but Mom can't be expected to do likewise)

* Dad has everything needed to do a good job as sole guardian - he has adequate time, support from Mrs. Dad, a good understanding of how to support SS20, etc.

* Mom has shown she can't do the job - she holds SS20 back and causes problems with Dad

It's a pretty strong case!  But you'll have to gather evidence, witnesses, etc. to support each piece of it, and mostly to show that Dad will do a great job as sole guardian.

I think many dads in these situations - and I include myself - whether the kids are young in years or like your SS20 - dads often take a very weak approach, and don't ask for much.  I'm not sure why, but I did that for a while, til I got some good advice, and got stronger.  It sounds like your DH is doing this too - he surely wants to do what's right and sounds like he (and you) can do a great job, but for some reason we seem to hold back and not speak up and say, "I can do this!".  Maybe you can find a way to encourage him to do what he probably knows is best... .

[GaGrl]

Approach this as a custody issue.

[Matt]

Approach this as a custody issue.

What she said.

[livednlearned]

NorthernGirl,

Is there any reason to not do the psychologist assessment of SS20? Regardless of what tactic bio mom takes, it seems like it would put a stake in the ground, assuming that there is an assessment that is likely to uphold the view that SS20 can live independently (as he has already proven he can, with support).

[NorthernGirl]

Thanks LnL, Gagrl and Matt for taking the time to read the long post and provide your ideas!

This is somewhat like a custody issue but it sounds like there are some differences. The good news is that there are guidelines in the Guardianship Act that make it clear the guardians are supposed to be helping build the person's independence. DH's ex really struggles with that so that should be clear.

Matt -- some of the ideas you listed are similar to what DH and his lawyer are looking at. The biggest exception is that DH's lawyer doesn't think she can get a psych evaluation of the parents. I don't know why but when I have raised it, DH's lawyer just says that's not how it works. 

I don't know how this will all work, but it sounds like there won't be witnesses, other than DH, his ex and SS20, in court. If this goes to court, I guess I'll learn more about the process. DH is definitely prepared to try for sole guardianship although a few years ago he would have been less willing to fight his ex. He sees the damage she is doing now.

And yes, Matt -- we think SS23 is much less mature because of his addiction. Even so, it's extremely hard for DH to see SS23 not want to have anything to do with him. Thanks again everyone. 

[Matt]

Regarding SS23 - in a similar situation, I found Al-Anon to be very helpful.  I found a "men's group" but most are for whoever is close to someone with a substance abuse problem.

I only went a few times, when I was lowest.  Nobody else - like my family and friends - really understood what i was going through.  But a group of strangers got it instantly because our experiences were so similar.

(It also restored my faith in humanity.  If you ever aren't sure if people are good or bad, go to an Al-Anon meeting and you'll find out the answer.)

[NorthernGirl]

Yah, DH and I went to Al Anon a few years ago, and DH went back several times in the last few months with all that is going on. He wasn't sure how to bring up the mental health issues with SS23, but said that he quickly heard around the room that other parents were dealing with similar issues that go along with addiction. SS23 went to AA a few times and seemed to be getting something out of it. He asked DH to join him at a few meetings, which DH did. Then he asked his Mom. She dropped him at the door and SS23 said she told him she didn't want to go in because she didn't want to be around "those people." SS23 stopped going to AA.

DH showed his new T a letter SS23 had written, and after reading it the T said something like "have you ever heard of borderline personality disorder?" So it appears SS23 is showing signs of that. Likely NPD as well.

We're not sure how much of SS23's stuff will come out with the guardianship issue. We're keeping DH's L informed as I suspect it is SS23's willingness to conform that has DH's ex trying to get SS20 on her 'side' as well.