How to stay loving...

[Ceruleanblue]

Yes, we all had choices, but BPDh's scary/bad behaviors sort of limited our choices. Before BPDh threw my son out(one week prior to our move, so basically my son and my last week living together), we'd all discussed the move. Now, mind you when we got married BPDh had agreed to stay in our hometown until my son graduated. My son decided to stay in our hometown, and live with my parents, so this involved them greatly too. One week before the move, BPDh had a meltdown and dysregulated on me, my son said something about how embarrassing BPDh is(a friend stopped by and BPD was raging), not thinking BPDh could hear him, and my husband went after him. I got between them, because I was afraid my son would get hurt, and because I wouldn't let BPD get physical with my son(he did that ONCE, and it's the only time I stood up hard and fast to BPDh), he threw both my kids out.

A couple days later, BPDh had calmed down, but when my son asked if he could come home for the last week, my husband refused, but said my daughter could. No way, would I let just one kid back home, so they both stayed at my Moms. My son called my Mom when BPDh was dysregulated, and BPDh did all this in front of her, and my kids. Plus, he was raging at me over his girls so I finally, after four years, broke down and apologized to them, that same day, and BPDh was still unhappy. Ii did something that was huge to me, apologized for things I didn't do, and he still wasn't happy, and he took out his rage on my kids. NOT OKAY!


So far, he's apologized to my daughter, but it was clearly my son he wanted rid of. I can honestly say that my son was targeted, for no real reason. My daughter is three years older, more disrespectful towards me, and BPDh thinks that's okay. In fact he's weird with her. She has zero respect for him, because she says he's awful to me, but she manipulates him to get her way, and she loves that he dotes on her. Its' gross.

We all had choices, but to me, they seemed like both choices were bad. And I think my son and I made HONORABLE choices. He told me to move with my husband, and he's wanted me to make this marriage work, even though BPDh treats him horribly. I don't understand that at all. I tried to be honorable to my marriage, but it's made me feel like a "bad parent". BPDh could have made honorable choices, but I don't feel he did. He chose to put himself, and only himself first. He hasn't apologized to my son(only to me and my daughter) for throwing my son out, or how he handled any of this. My son who was always tense around BPDh, now can barely stand to be around  him. I usually go visit my son alone, and my son doesn't even want to come stay overnights or visit where we live. I'm sure because he fears BPDh.

My family has lost respect for BPDh, but still treat him nicely. BPDh is getting better due to either his upped dosage of meds, or from the DBT, but this is still a huge issue humming in the background for me.

So much of our marriage has been about HIS adult kids, and their hatred and unacceptance of me, and their projectiong their issues onto me, that it really rankles that I've made all sorts of effort, and sought peace with his PD kids, but he makes zero effort with one of mine, and MY kid is not grown!

I want to stay loving BPDh, but this one issue is making it so hard. Other things I could overlook/forgive/write off as his disorder, but this one is really undermining my efforts.

I look back and can't even see how doing something different would have had a better outcome. I could have stayed with my son, but then my marriage would have ended, something none of us wanted. We are getting better, but I still wonder if the cost of us getting better should have had to be at such suffering on my part. BPDh would never make the choice I did. He's consistently put his adult kids ahead of our marriage, and he can't stand up to them at all, but rages at my son and I.

I'm glad for any and all improvement, but I'm stumped as to how to keep loving a man who made me "choose".

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Ceruleanblue]

New boundaries are firmly in place, and I think I've been getting some extinction burst from him possibly. Also, I am taking care of me, and putting in a lot of effort with my son.

The "marriage" part of this seems to be getting better due to the DBPT, and possibly by my reestablished boundaries. I just can't seem to turn off the voice in my head telling me things are better because BPDh "got rid of my son"... .and this makes resentment not go away in me, and it's hard to "stay loving" when there is resentment.

The ideas you've all given really have helped though. It gives me some new things to think about and try.

[Notwendy]

I think , to some extent, people with BPD can be divisive and want to be the center of our attention. How much they do this can vary. My H, who I consider to have traits did this in a more subtle underhanded way, being unavailable or too tired to socialize as a couple ( now we have no couple friends) and being jealous of my friends. He, at times, has expressed some jealousy over my attention to the kids, but they are his kids too, and he knows it is in their best interest not to do this, and so does not. So while I think I have forgone friends over this, it has not extended to family members.

Mom on the other hand, sees things strictly black and white. If she is angry at a family member, and someone else is not, then they are not on her side. It isn't unusual for her to say "so and so is on MY side" after dragging them into an argument with someone else. Her whole family does that, and she recalls once a social slight years ago where the whole family sided together because of that. Family members on my father's side have told me that when he was first married, he had to cut off much contact with them after that because my mother doesn't like them.

I am mom's black child, and also the one most likely to stand up to her. She has painted me black to many of her family members and by doing so, has severed my relationship with them. She also put my father in that position, and he chose her. I know it was painful for him. She did not allow him to help me much financially with college. They had plans to send me to boarding school as a kid,  but they didn't- possibly because it was too expensive.

I think it was a good decision that you have a relationship with your son while allowing him to not like your H and choose to not be with him. I certainly hated my mother when I was his age, although now being older and wiser, I am more understanding of her situation and we do have a cordial, but not warm and fuzzy, relationship. My father would not allow me to express my feelings about her. He made my relationship with him contingent on me accepting my mother and pretending all was normal. Once, in college, a school counselor advised me to go NC with her, but my father would insist I include her. If I sent him any letters ( and later e mails) he passed them on to her, and if we spoke on the phone, she listened in.  In a nutshell, I was not allowed to have a one on one relationship with my father.

In contrast to this, we spend family time with our kids, but we also have times where my H is with the kids individually and so am I. We are a couple but we are also individuals, and neither of us are divisive about the other and encourage the kids to have a good relationship with each of us. A relationship with an older child is in ways similar to a friendship where I think you have to build it and work on it.

You are in a tough position, but at least you have set a boundary that you will have a relationship with your son as an individual, and even if your H tries to stop this, I hope you will continue to do so. It was very important to me to have at least one parent who cared about me.

[Ceruleanblue]

Yes, I will always have a relationship with my son, no matter what. BPDh isn't his Dad, and my son's Dad(who I was married to for 18 years), isn't much of a Dad since he left nearly 10 years ago. What's funny is that my son didn't start disliking BPDh until he threw my son out on our last week living together. I know he thought BPDh was sort of crazy, and didn't like his behaviors, but he never seemed to actually dislike him, until now. I can't blame him for that. Heck, I'm having major issue with getting past what BPDh did, and making me "choose".

It's just so funny because I never made him choose, no matter what his kids did, and he always made me out to be that bad guy if I even suggested boundaries to him. I've never seen a parent so enmeshed with their kids. Ever. Yet he felt I could and should just move away leaving my son behind because he wanted me to. So typical of BPD, or maybe it's just that he's so narcissistic.

I guess I'm just saddened that I have to find ways to "stay loving", instead of it just being a no brainer. I'm hoping that his current better behavior is truly the result of his higher dose of meds, and his DBT. I'm also hoping that some of the love feelings come back, as time goes on. I find it easier to ACT loving towards him than it is to actually FEEL loving inside about him. I married him to love him unconditionally, and I do love him, but I want those "in love" feelings to come back... .

[Notwendy]

There is a lot written about love being a choice, not a feeling. I would think this loss of feelings is a cause of many divorces, BPD or not. A good book about the feeling is the Passionate Marriage, about how enmeshment affects passion. An interesting read.

However, feelings tell us something, and what I think you may be experiencing is resentment over having to choose. I found that when I am feeling resentment, it is hard to feel positive. Still, I don't aim to stop the feeling but use it to guide me. If I am feeling resentment, it is because of something that I need to pay attention to.

I don't think many parents would be OK with being put in the position of choosing spouse or child. You also had the option of a good place for your son- with your parents, and he is almost college age and leaving home so living there may not be a bad solution at all. Still, the feelings involved are hurtful. I would have some concerns about him feeling unwanted- having had his biological father leave him. I hope you are able to talk about this with him and also offer him some counseling if he wants it. Also, you did not put your H in this position, but you are you, and he is who he is.

This could be something to bring up in counseling with your H or in individual counseling. That you feel somehow who you are was violated by being put in this position. Without the counselor present, I could see this going into a circular argument where he justifies his position. It still may be in your son's best interest to not be living with your H, but maybe there is some arrangement you can work out where you spend some time staying at your parents too, and having more family time with your son.

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, I actually broached the subject with BPDh Sunday morning, and it went really well. I'm so thankful that he's doing so much better. I really think it must be the medicine he's on. I'm sure his DBT is helping, but he's only had a few sessions, and after this latest higher does of meds, I noticed a big difference(after a couple weeks on it, of course). He and I were able to talk, and he actually apologized for putting me in the position he'd put me in. Of course, it's easy for those with BPD to do what they want, and just apologize later. I hate being that cynical, but it's happened so often.

BPDh said we could move back, but I'm betting he'll change his mind, plus we signed a lease. I really like it here, but the sorrow over losing over two years of high school, my son's a junior next year(not to mention missing part of this sophomore year too), is not getting any better. As I stated, this is the only thing I've been unable to write off as BPDh's disorder, because my son was a target for four years, and so was I, and I feel this was thought out and deliberate on BPDh's part. He pretty much admitted it was.

Tonight, we have marriage therapy, and I hope it gets addressed. So far, every week we've been talking about BPDh's "adult", mean, angry, likely personality disordered kids. I know it's because our therapist has sensed from BPDh that this is a huge core issue in our marriage and with BPDh. He's so enmeshed that he'll take any form of disrespect and abuse from them, then he takes it out on me or my son before we moved. I'm hoping the therapist does not discount this issue with my son, because he's a big proponent of putting marriages first, and I am too, but not when it involves underage kids. I didn't ask BPDh to move away from his son, and we were married and living separately, just so HIS SON could finish out high school. See, why I'm having huge issues with this? Yet another HUGE double standard.

[formflier]

 

How did MC go?

[Stalwart]

Sorry, I just caught this from Vortex so I'll just take a step back for a moment.

Vortex:

"Number 19 on the list that Stalwart posted stuck out:

Quote

19. Adults shamed as children often involve themselves in compulsive processing of past interactions and events and intellectualization as a defense against pain.

It stuck out because isn't that what a lot of us do in order to stay in a relationship that continues to cause us pain. What would happen if I stopped intellectualizing the pain and started feeling it? What would happen if I let myself think and feel things like, "My husband's behavior is unacceptable. Putting me in the position to make that kind of decision hurt me to the core."  


I really believe that perhaps because they can't tolerate the level of remorse or regret for their own actions that they have to intellectualize an interaction as a defense against that pain. They learn to offset it to thought rather than deal with the emotional rawness so they don't have to feel it. That would be the need of the defense mechanism.

Absolutely, we do the same thing Vortex. The difference might just be in us not avoiding truths or rewriting and reliving them differently in our minds while we rationalize them to a better level to protect ourselves. Maybe we're more apt to seek with truth rather than avoid truth in our searches when we build our walls and lift our screens. Maybe we know we'll heal better exposing ourselves to the personal volitilities than they can, so we're more willing to risk the truths.

Lower the shields on any defense mechanism and your definitely going to expose yourself to the consequences. That's why they don't and buy into 'the new story' and are so able to overlook what might be our perception or rationalization of what the truth is or was - to protect themselves from the pain caused by their own actions. We seek to heal from offenses from others.

Just food for thought Vortex.

[Notwendy]

This is a great thought, I am taking it up on the when we were children thread so I don't hijack this one.

[Stalwart]

vortex, Sorry for how lengthy this is but I just feel I need to take a stab at this topic from a bit different perspective in order to be clear from my perspective. Please bare with me:

I’m not a psychologist so stating these in easily understood terms may not be affective but I’ll give it another try here vortex. The differences in BPD entrained thinking being their reality and ours as having well and ‘properly develop’ synaptic responses that come from our brains is entirely different. We're getting out of the mainstream and into the biology of BPD and us.

Both the non and BPD affected person are confronted with the same situation that involves their behavior. Let’s assume for a minute that whatever the interaction was, it was your fault it took place. The non will rationalize the situation for the truth that is in it. Hey, we may choose to put the blame on someone else rather than except it, but we know that is a lie. It is a lie we are willing to consciously accept to avoid the truth and consequences we perceive from it.

A BPD has been hardwired as an entrained defense mechanism to automatically divert blame from themselves. Because it’s an entrained process and resulting behavior it’s developed in a way that it’s become a norm of thinking and rationalization. It is no longer a choice because the diversion isn't done on a conscious level – it takes place on an automatronic subconscious level. Their mind developed and is entrained to perform the diversion function without consciously knowing they are.

Our processing mechanisms are hard wired in manual. We have to consider truths as they are presented on a subconscious level and then make our conscious decisions what we do with truths. We could no sooner turn ourselves over to an ‘automatic’ mode to avoid facing the truths than a BPD who is wired on ‘automatic’ to do this can turn on their ‘manual’ modes to process it as we do.

Their brains have developed to automatically offset guilt to another as a coping mechanism against chastisement and the pain that comes with it. It didn't happen in puberty or those stages of consious development. It happened from birth through the primary development of their interactive synaptic systems or wiring of the brain functions.

That is what mindfulness therapy and practices do, they attempt to help a person rationalize in a conscious ‘manual’ mode in order to overcome their subconscious ‘automatic’ processes.

Hey, it’s a challenge for a non to buy into radical acceptance of the working of a mental illness which in the case of BPD actually on primary levels really relates to an actual physical impairment in thinking.

We classify it so simply as being mental, when actually it’s foundations are a physical underdevelopment of the (organic or physical) synaptic nerve ways in the brain resulting in an altered form of thinking.  

It’s difficult to embrace on that level and understand. If it weren’t difficult we might be challenged ourselves.

I hope I’m explaining this clearly from my perception of it. It comes down to answering the question do they lie? Sometimes. But other times it's a subconcious process they don't even know they are doing and that their thinking allows them to do and that it's different from how we see, think and process for our world. It's the reality and consequences of dealing from their world.

[Notwendy]

"Their brains have developed to automatically offset guilt to another as a coping mechanism against chastisement and the pain that comes with it. It didn't happen in puberty or those stages of conscious development. It happened from birth through the primary development of their interactive synaptic systems or wiring of the brain functions."


This is so true IMHO. I don't know where this began for my mother. I don't think she is able to access this painful a memory. Since her parents are deceased, I can't get any information from them, don't know it would have been possible.

My H can recall some painful instances where his father chastised him as a child. Sometimes I think he processes things I say to him as if it is the voice of his father. Sometimes what he hears is not what I say, but to him, he really hears it as that. This is so upsetting to me because I don't think I can change it, and trying to explain that I didn't mean that once her hears it is not effective- it's just JADE at that point.

[Stalwart]

Hey NotWendy:

Just so you know this is the science behind it. Not my science behind it. Don't be upset - it doesn't speak to everything Notwendy. There is no perfect science either.

There are people that came from nurturing families that didn't engage in putting their children down in a harmful way. It's about both genetic and environmental conditions and applies differently in each person's development. Maybe perception of constant chastisement due to insecurity, might just be a childhood perception that isn't taken into consideration.

I can say from my own personal experience that things fluctuate. My wife didn't face physical harm but her mother is afflicted. She was not only a screaming meemie, she was also extremely critical. She was an unwed single mother back in the days when that just didn't happen. Reason I say that is it was common for my wife to also hear "I wish you were never born - you're the whole problem." She lived through a lot of volatile relationships her mother brought into the house and even physcially abusive ones toward her mother. She had a severe upbringing in an invaliding setting to say the least.

It's been my observation that height of emotional dysregulation and degree of guilt are a factor in getting it wrong. There's been times even back in the dark days when my wife might come back a couple of days later and say something she said wasn't true or claim partial responsibility; I was just mad - but not very often."

She's learned to do that now a lot more and to jump in with her responsibility right away after a situation, but she's aware now and engaged in learning mindfullness thinking. but hey don't dig up the past or hope to heck something doesn't trigger some of her past situations.

Hey life's a work in progress for the best of us eh?

[Ceruleanblue]

Formflier:

MC didn't go so great. I've decided to be way quieter since BPDh said "see how she made that all about her"(even though I really didn't). Problem is with me being quiet thought is BPDh sits there or just barely answers T's questions, so it's just us sitting there with T talking mostly about this situation with BPDh's kids. I fail to understand why our marriage focus' all about his kids? I get that the T has probably realized that BPDh is totally enmeshed with them, and is trying to get BPDh to support our marriage, defend it, and set boundaries with his kids.

After nearly an hour of this, I brought up how "stuck" I am in dealing with moving away from my son. He said we'll discuss it next session. I know BPDh is likely to blow up, and he says he's sick of hearing about it from me, but I'm really struggling. He made me make a choice, and either choice was not a good one. I feel I'm shirking my parental duties, and I wanted to finish raising my son until he was out of high school. BPDh was given that opportunity, and in fact we were married, but he continued to live away from me just so his son could graduate from his school. I didn't ask him to uproot his son, yet look what he did to me/my son. I'm trying to get past it, but I feel it was so utterly selfish and narcissistic on BPDh's part.

Oh, and I kept all our "terms" except one when we got back together(he didn't have any "terms" set for him), and he's mad about that now. I apologized to his kids who weren't owed an apology, I got into BDSM because he said it interested him(now he has no interest because I wouldn't let him outright bruise me, but he did whip me so hard it hurt for hours), and I got a motorcycle because he wanted me to... .I jumped through all these hoops, and he's focused on ONE thing I now don't want to do because he changed the terms. I accepted him as is! I'm not sure if this is worth discussing in therapy?

[Notwendy]

Your comment where he blames you for not enjoying his bondage fantasies because he can't bruise you but he whipped you to the point of pain is concerning to me, from the standpoint of boundaries.

I'm not familiar with any of this. I know that this is something people are into. I am not judging here, but making the assumption that whatever two people do together should be mutually agreed on, as well as mutually respectful. There has to be some boundary about physical harm and pain, as well as a boundary where crossing it constitutes abuse.

I assume that your H has some boundaries, I hope he would not bruise you or whip you to the point of hospitalizing you, but it seems that his boundary on this doesn't match up to yours. However, we are responsible for what our own boundaries are. This is your body and you can decide what someone does with your body. They don't like it? Too bad- it is not their body.

The issue here is his blaming you for his lack of pleasure. We are also responsible for our own feelings. How far you go so he will be happy may not have a limit if he isn't happy and blaming you for it. The only thing you can do is decide what your boundaries are. It seems that your H is challenging your boundaries, whatever they are. Respectful people don't do that, but he isn't one of them. It would be nice if other people respected our boundaries, but we can not depend on others to do that. Respecting our own boundaries means we choose them first, even if others don't like that.

[formflier]

He made me make a choice, and either choice was not a good one. 

How did this happen?  I generally know the story... .what if you refused to make the choice.

Somehow... .I hope the MC can help guide you guys on how to negotiate big "life issues".  The result may be that nobody in the r/s is "happy"... .or "gets everything they want... ."... .but I think that what you are going through also doesn't work.

You have the power to say no... .

Do you think you have the strength to do so?

FF

[vortex of confusion]

You have the power to say no... .

Do you think you have the strength to do so?

That is huge! It was very difficult for me to come to the realization that I could have said no. I didn't think that I could say NO because of my husband's behavior.

Once I realized that I gave in and gave up my personal power, I felt horrible. I had the power. I didn't have the strength. Now, it is all about finding MY strength.

If you don't feel like you have the strength, what might it take to get stronger? I am still working on that one.

[formflier]

  It was very difficult for me to come to the realization that I could have said no. 

This is where forgiveness is appropriate.  Sometimes the hardest person to forgive... .is ourselves.

For me... .the trick seems to be to take a lesson onboard... .one that I learned the hard way... .and make sure that I make better choices in the future... .rather than ruminate on perceived past failures.

FF