enough is enough ~

[debyt]

I am emotionally drained.  Sat night I thought he was actually going to follow through with moving out.  He had picked out a property to call on and even had spoke to the kids about leaving, basically preparing them for the separation.  I took it well when he told me and I offered to work on a child plan that would be mutually beneficial.  Then it all turned stupid.  For the next 4 hours I got dragged into a discussion about our relationship and how I didn't try hard enough to help him with his BPD (non-diagnosed because he won't go for testing) and how sorry he is for not being a good enough to me. You know, Stockholm all over again.  We did this dance about two years ago and it didn't last.  I was praying that he would be the one to move out on his own and I thought he had FINALLY made the step.  I was wrong.

My best and most honest friend told me "you know he can't do it! He's not capable of it."  I  know she is right.  I am the main caregiver in the family because he really can't handle it.  He knows it too. Even admitted it Sat night.  

My question for everyone is: Do I have to be the one to move since he won't?  It means relocating our kids and it will get ugly when I do.  I shouldn't have to be the one to uproot the kids!  If I don't, we will keep doing this dance until the boys are out of high school and then I can walk away but I can't wait that long.

HELP!  I'm at a loss.

[Mike-X]

debyt, I am sorry to hear about the emotional exhaustion and your SO seemingly not following through on moving out.

Can you also elaborate on his efforts to move out thus far and what discussions you have had about timelines? I know that you mentioned that he picked out a property to call on and spoke with the kids about leaving.

I apologize, but I am not sure where you are at in the process of managing your responses to the dysregulation. I can only imagine the exhaustion after a 4 hour discussion. However, can you elaborate on the exchange? My thought is that you might be able to get some communication advice that can help facilitate your SO actually moving out.

[Loosestrife]

Would he be open to divorce/separation mediation?

[fromheeltoheal]

I say focus on what you can control.  You could tell him to move, which doesn't sound like it will work and he isn't affording you that control, but you can control whether you move or not, and you may be able to control your emotional state and live your own life while living together, but that would be the hard way.  Beyond that, other folks have made suggestions about getting third parties involved, and you would have some control there too.

[debyt]

Mike-X:"Where you are at in the process of managing your responses to the dysregulation?"

Managing my responses? really? there is no management to it.  I have learned to clam up.  That is all I can do.  No interaction when he gets intimidating, condescending, rude, critical. I am starting to speak honestly and not care if he is hurt by my honesty; I used to care because I didn't want to make his BPD worse.  I am 45 and I have decided that I don't care what people think of my opinion anymore and if it hurts them, I'm sorry, but this is a free country and way too many have run over me in my life.  Honesty is my new policy.  I see this is the only way to get him to leave, by actually telling him how I feel about his cycling. 

I have since found out that he didn't talk to the kids.  That was his way of getting me to open up and talk to him.  Manipulation.  He also gave me the phone number of the property owner so I could throw it away for him, "since we are going to try AGAIN." It's more like he is going to try and I am going to wait for the next shoe to fall.  (before the 4 hour talk he deleted his phone numbers from my cell phone and threatened to kill himself. even tried to scare me into caring about his mental state by taking the gun to another room.  I didn't react to him and his response was "you really don't care do you?"  I told him that God had to handle his issues because I didn't have the strength to do so anymore.) sorry, I shouldn't wander from the subject.

He has limited his phone calls the last couple of days and it has been relieving!  I call when I think of him and only when I have time to active listen to him.  I know that won't last but for now it is nice to be able to actually accomplish something at my office.

[ForeverDad]

Why would you have to move?  Is he the deed owner or is he the one on the lease?

If you're the one on the lease or deed, then you could tell him to leave.  That's hard, of course.

So a divorce is inevitable?  Have you started the legal paperwork yet?  Likely the lawyer could file for you to have legal possession of the house or apartment at the same time he files the divorce paperwork.

As for suicide threats, did you get that recorded?  First, none of us is qualified to judge whether a person voicing suicidal comments is really contemplating it or using it to manipulate and guilt.  Second, when you call the emergency responders for the next incident (yes, very likely to be more threats of suicide) and he predictably denies it, then you'll have proof rather than weak he-said, she-said.  Yes, that would get him very upset but frankly threatening suicide is extremely serious.  Either it's manipulative and should never be done or it's real and he needs help.  A visit by emergency responders would problem put a stop to that if he's using it to guilt or coerce you.  However, it would ramp up the tensions and conflict too so figure out what you want to happen beforehand.

It sounds like you're trying the soft approach.  Six months ago you were talking about him leaving, here we are nearly halfway into the next year and it appears nothing major has been accomplished.  Nice to try going gentle and all that, but for many of us that didn't work.  You may need to rethink the slow-go approach and decide the band-aid has to come off more quickly so the pain of unwinding the relationship isn't extended for half of forever.  As it is, he's very likely to delay and sabotage as much as he can, it will be up to you to get things done sooner rather than later.  Believe me, our cases can be 2-3 times longer than 'normal' cases.  I recall my lawyer told me it would be 7-9 months for a divorce and it was a couple weeks shy of two years.

[debyt]

You are right, ForeverDad. The soft approach is not working and I am not normally a flight personality.  I am a fighter.  But after 15 years of this, thinking it was normal because this is the marital example I was raised under, I am not in the mood to fight.  What I have learned though is that this is just the tip of the iceberg.  I expect a lengthy separation/divorce because even the T's have to have T's of their own to deal with these personalities. 

Yes, the Big D is coming.  My best friend says I need to start the paperwork now and start working through it so I have a negotiable starting point.  I did start a child plan but abandoned it because it hurt too much to fill it out.  Guess I have to get back to it.

We own our home and I believe eventually he will just leave.  It's so hard to read him because now I realize he is a manipulator.  Wonder how long his "change of heart" will last.  Oh, yeh, when is the next NEW moon?  That's when he is at his worst.  I met him under a full moon and things were great!  I was very codependent then.  Not now!~

[Mike-X]

Mike-X:"Where you are at in the process of managing your responses to the dysregulation?"

Managing my responses? really? there is no management to it.  I have learned to clam up.  That is all I can do.  No interaction when he gets intimidating, condescending, rude, critical. I am starting to speak honestly and not care if he is hurt by my honesty; I used to care because I didn't want to make his BPD worse.  I am 45 and I have decided that I don't care what people think of my opinion anymore and if it hurts them, I'm sorry, but this is a free country and way too many have run over me in my life.  Honesty is my new policy.  I see this is the only way to get him to leave, by actually telling him how I feel about his cycling.

I am sorry about the manipulation  and suicidal threats. By managing your responses, I was trying to ask about your use of the communication  techniques offered on this site for confronting pwBPD honestly without getting drawn into escalated  arguments or long drawn out discussions.  I am sorry if I came across as doing anything else. I certainly dealt with my share of manipulation and rage with my uBPDgf, so I am again sorry if I came across as anything other than very sympathetic to your situation.

[livednlearned]

Hi debyt,

There is a really great book written for you! It's called Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing A Spouse with BPD/NPD by Bill Eddy. He's a former social worker who is now a family law attorney, and also has a great website called www.highconflictinstitute.com. Eddy writes about high-conflict personalities (HCPs). He points out that not all people with BPD are HCPs, but all HCPs have BPD. To be an HCP, a person with a PD has to also recruit negative advocates, be a persuasive blamer, and have a target of blame (you). This is important! Because your ex may not be as high-conflict as some of the cases here on the family board. Lucky for you, though, you get to learn from those of us who did divorce an HCP  

So first thing: buy the book. You can download it to your computer from Amazon.com. Then consult with a lawyer. More than one if you can. Ask lawyers about how to have your ex removed from the home. Ask them lots of questions, and go with a friend if you have one, the one who tells you how it is. It's emotional to talk to lawyers and a lot of information will be flying around, much of it hard to remember. Then, after you think through which strategy seems like it will work best, you can retain the lawyer. It's better for your kids to stay in the home they know. Divorce will jar them, it does even if it's an amicable split. They need stability. And so do you!

However, if your ex is dangerous, then safety comes first. You may need to move out into an apartment or somewhere you can stay temporarily, and then move back into the home after your ex has been court-ordered to move.

It's a really good idea to put together an exit plan before you talk to your ex. Have things really thought through, contingencies, everything you can think of. If it's better to write him a letter, then do it that way. If you have a therapist, sit down with him/her and then take that plan and run it by a lawyer, or vice versa. These are really really really hard divorces and you need a team of angels. A lot of us have or had a tendency to sabotage ourselves. You need someone who will save you from yourself a little bit as you get yourself to this next level.

Also, keep in mind that you're going to be ok.    I know it doesn't seem that way right now, and you're tired. You've been dealing with him for a long time and he has worn you down. Once you get some distance, your strength will start to return bit by bit by bit. Two years from now, you'll barely recognize the person you are now.

We're here for you.  

[ForeverDad]

However, if your ex is dangerous, then safety comes first. You may need to move out into an apartment or somewhere you can stay temporarily, and then move back into the home after your ex has been court-ordered to move.

It's a really good idea to put together an exit plan before you talk to your ex. Have things really thought through, contingencies, everything you can think of. If it's better to write him a letter, then do it that way. If you have a therapist, sit down with him/her and then take that plan and run it by a lawyer, or vice versa. These are really really really hard divorces and you need a team of angels. A lot of us have or had a tendency to sabotage ourselves. You need someone who will save you from yourself a little bit as you get yourself to this next level.

Also, keep in mind that you're going to be ok.  ... .Two years from now, you'll barely recognize the person you are now.

Safety, of course, is a high priority.  But keep in mind that if you move out temporarily then you bring the kids with you.  Why?  If you leave them behind then he will jump into the void and try to unfairly squeeze you out.  He may, whether successfully or unsuccessfully, claim you abandoned the kids and that can add huge delays and complications to the legal wranglings.  Court is very slow to figure things out, I have concluded they want the parents to figure out amongst themselves what will work best.  Of course, you already know that won't work with someone who actively sabotages and can't be reasoned with much of the time.  So bottom line: you want to start the divorce in the best possible position as a person and as a parent.

Frankly, before you decide to take a Move Out path, you should really try to identify the way or ways that you can get official possession of the home.  Or, if neither of you can maintain the home with one income long term, you may decide you have to force it to be sold (yes, like everything else, tough to do with an obstructive spouse) and find more economical residences.

Consult with some lawyers and choose a good one that has a strategy, experience and is proactive, not passive.  You already have a good T, great.  You have trusted friends and family, great.  You have solid peer support here, great.  Don't hesitate to call upon and consult your various resources!

I recall my lawyer telling me, ":)on't worry (about the bad parts), stay quiet, we'll get it fixed later."  Well, for me 'later' was two years down the road in the final decree since (1) neither the court nor my lawyer (I've concluded) was anxious to actually fix or improve the temp order and (2) my ex delayed the case as long as possible since she had a favorable temp order and she wanted to obstruct my parenting.  Not even when our Custody Evaluator wrote, "Mother cannot share 'her' child... .Mother should lose temporary custody... .If Shared Parenting is attempted and fails then Father should get custody."  That's why I say, get the best temporary order you can, once set it can be difficult to fix or improve.

If there are specific DV or otherwise abusive incidents in the past you can list, even if not reported, then do so with dates and other details as that may be additional basis to support a move out order for him and you being granted temporary possession of the home.  Remember that saying "he always" or "she always" is legally ineffective due to vagueness and likely to be ignored, details to some extent are needed and especially within the past 6 months.

Yes, get the SPLITTING handbook by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger.  It explains some of the common traps, contortions and seeming illogic of family court processes.

[whirlpoollife]

" change of heart " could be him just buying time to get himself prepared .

it's possible you can stay in the marital home during  the divorce process.  I did but had to wait five months to get a hearing to have xh move out which then coincided with the first custody hearing. 

He refused to move becaue he felt I should becaue I was the one who filed for divorce. 

First L said if I just left then I would be abondoning the home and kids because I could take the kids with me without some order .

Second L said that would not have been the  case. In settlement xh got 62% of marital assets so he still received money from the marital home. 

The five months of living together after I filed was not good. There is no cohabitation with an abuser. It should not have taken that long. Or I could have moved with a good temp custody order and not loose any equity in the home.  I didn't know about either at the time.

So consult with more than one L. As you have educate yourself  and know what questions to ask. The one you choose has to understand PD and be willing to fight for you. Not just look at the law and go by numbers only.    My second L was good at numbers, but unwilling to understand or believe me in what xh was capable of.  L would tell me that's  irrelavent . But he sees it now as xh drug the divorce process out to three years and continues to do so , by appealing the support order again.

The L should explain step by step and what options if such and such happens too. 

[GaGrl]

I wonder if it would be possible to get a move-out order based on your H's suicide threats.  That is not something that you or the children should continue to be exposed to/deal with if the divorce petition is filed and he is still in the house.

[livednlearned]

I wonder if it would be possible to get a move-out order based on your H's suicide threats.  That is not something that you or the children should continue to be exposed to/deal with if the divorce petition is filed and he is still in the house.

This is a really good point. Suicide is an act of violence that a person commits against himself/herself, and courts will err on the side of keeping you and the kids safe, and having your ex undergo psychiatric evaluation (this is something you can ask for).

Hold your cards close right now. Divorce means that this person is no longer going to be your intimate other, and that means it's ok to start drawing the line in the sand, to allow you to start keeping your thoughts and feelings to yourself. As you begin to detach, your H is going to be triggered and he will do whatever he can to not abandon you, unfortunately, like in the past, these behaviors will likely be highly dysfunctional and intended to cause you harm in one way or another. Similar to what whirlpoollife was saying -- your H may be buying some time to get a lawyer involved. Some lawyers will be very aggressive and you could be the one who gets blindsided and knocked off your feet. Not a good position to be in. You don't want to be on the defensive as you begin the divorce process if you can help it.

[debyt]

Mike-x, thank you.  I have calmed down.  Thanks.  What I meant to say is there is no communicating with him.  I am accused of not communicating when it is he who doesn't do so effectively.  I am guilty too but he is amazingly good at twisting a conversation to suit his usage.

All you are great! and so on target.   My closest friend has given me her divorce file and is helping me WAKE UP! and see this from the  outside of my body and not the inside of my mind.  I will get the book.  I need to start a questions file and start attorney shopping.   So far, the attorneys I have "hired" in the past for business purposes (all three at different firms) ARE USELESS.  I could have done better and  won my case instead of losing, but child custody is not something you mess around with. 

I guess the one thing I am most afraid of is his temper and a scene in front of the boys.  I want to protect them from the pain.  guess it's too late for that.  He has said he would move out but then uses it to draw me back in.  Some one please be blatantly honest with me: he isn't going to go on his own, is he?  I fear the answer is no. 

I need techniques on using his fears against him to get out of this.  Any one ever tried this option?

[debyt]

Today was the day.  It actually started last night.  He wanted to make love and I told him no.  I wasn't in the mood to placate him and continue CRAZY.  It was time to speak honestly and frankly.  and frankly, I am tired to living this way and I really realized thanks to a Utube video that I was perpetuating the insanity buy waiting for the "time to be right".  It will never be right.

My receptionist also is a paralegal at one of my client's offices and brought me the filing packet for divorce/child plan.  I filled most of it out last night and the rest tonight.  I faxed it to her to start the typing process and I plan to have my client represent me in court. 

I have spent the entire day ignoring texts and phone calls to the point that that he told me "file the papers and I will sign them"... .I'll believe that when I see the notary stamp!  Too bad I am a notary and can't seal my own docs.!  He insisted I tell the boys what I was planning to do.  I already had two hours before THAT conversation and both were understanding, though disappointed that things would be changing in the house.  The oldest told me I was doing the right thing and the youngest said he didn't want to see dad leave because he was afraid he would never see him again or at the least very often.  He's really afraid of his dad abandoning him. 

I started out in the middle with the child plan and the household items.  I don't need much and can provide just enough for us even without support.  Child support would be nice but with the way the court system and the state operates, I will be thrilled to get anything.

I offered to let him stay here until he finds a place but he is staying at a friend's house since they went out and got loaded at the tavern.  I  had a shot or two as well but I am not sad.  I am RELIEVED!   They say when you get to the edge of the cliff and know that you have to just jump, it's not the fall that scares you anymore and you find YOU CAN FLY!

Now comes the hard part: sticking to my guns and following through.  NC will be difficult but I am tenacious = stubborn.  I have my kids support and I have you folks here. Thank you! 

Another good place for me right now has been the utube: Going Mental: Saying Goodbye to Crazy.

WOW WHAT STRENGTH it gave me.

I don't learn from others well.  Guess I am too tenacious/stubborn.

Ok... .now what should I expect... .I need an eagle to ride on... .suggestions please on what to do next besides NC and wait for the lawyer to file?

[whirlpoollife]

Nice he is staying at a friends house, I hope it stays that way till you can have an order that says you can stay in the marital home through  the divorce process.     Then change the locks!

You did it right with kids, as to say things are going to change in the house. Just that wording is better than what I did , from advice from a past therapist , and tell them mom and dad are getting divorced.

Keep assuring them that you will always be there for them and to ask you questions. Start now to keep that line of communication open to you.   I was so petrified at the time that I couldn't say much of anything , and there was damage with communication with kids that I had to repair.

For the support issues with me, it's not that I want child support it's xh is a very entitled person and con artist.  He wants a lump sum retroactive spousal support from me. And feels he should have the kids but I pay for them.  So spousal support questions can be part of the questions for L.

As you go foward, prepare that the emotional strength you gain can be two steps fowards one step back.

And know that the setbacks are temporary only.

[catnap]

You might want to consider a T for your sons, someone they can talk to about the changes that will be occurring.  Especially for your youngest who is already concerned about not seeing Dad.  If Dad is aware that son has this fear he will capitalize on it to either manipulate or punish you.  He will feed your son's fears and blame you.  My fear is that he will try and alienate the youngest against you.

Congrats on getting the paperwork and diligently working on getting it filled out. 

[ForeverDad]

Don't be surprised if the children say, in effect, why didn't this happen before now?  What I'm saying is that many parents have stayed "for the kids" when it's actually more difficult for the children if action isn't taken.  I recall in my own case that my son didn't even want to talk about his mother after she was out.  And he was young enough that he showed his real feelings, running to me at exchange pickups and often resisted returning to her at exchanges for the first couple years.

Living in a calm and stable home will give them a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  So many of us felt we had to stay in a marriage no matter what but sometimes, in cases like ours, that's just not the right thing to do.  Nearly 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  You don't have to feel guilty about ending the dysfunction.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment - your home, wherever that is - away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

[debyt]

well, where to start.  He didn't stay gone but one day and I am meeting with the lawyer tomorrow to start divorce proceedings.  He feels if we are separated that we might as well be divorced... .soo ok!

He has shown all the signs of loss of control and abandonment to the extent of "I won't live through this if you throw me out".  He was so distraught last night that I told him he needed to be committed and that we needed to go NOW.  He agreed to the committal but wanted to wait until Friday so he could do it over Memorial Day Weekend... .how convenient! FOR HIM!  I AM SO ANGRY.  Mostly at myself because I can't do what needs to be done.  I am strong with I am not in his presence and I know what I want and need to do BUT when he is there I am so strung out.  I agreed to "working on the marriage" instead of insisting that he leave.  I told him if he will get help that we might be able to make our marriage work. With all of this manipulation I am sure that I am done with him.

The only avenue I feel I can take is to move him out, set him up in housekeeping and go as close to NC (except for the kids) as is possible and file concurrently for divorce.   Has anyone ever moved their spouse out without them expecting it?

[ForeverDad]

Some states do have a provision for the person filing to also file for possession of the home at the same time.  Ask your lawyer.  My ex was already out when I filed so I don't know what my state's law is.  I would presume my option would have been to have the initial hearing setting the temporary order (some 6 weeks or so after filing).

However, if you have real safety concerns, more than just "I want my spouse out", then you can file ex parte (emergency motion with just one party appearing) for an immediate order until a full hearing can be held a few weeks later to have both sides heard.  So... .do you have a measure of 'fear' or 'concern' for your safety, the children's safety  due to your spouse's contemplated or threatened behaviors?  While you don't want to make up excuses, if you have real concerns, as it does appear to be the case here, then don't be timid.

We understand the private setting where you're pressured to give in and "try again".  For most here, our ex-spouses were relentless persuaders or manipulators, using FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) against us.  Once he is out you can have the distance to maintain your boundaries better.  Court and its orders, such as possession of the residence, provides the structure to enable you to be firmer and stronger about your boundaries.

A practical logic to use could be to say, "I need distance to see whether the relationship can be healed."  He will resist that but perhaps others here will have a better way to say that.  Frankly, though, unless he is in effective and progressing therapy, making solid progress, the relationship will never become healthy and functional.  Protests to try again and again will just be you getting back on the roller coaster again and again.  How many loops or cycles will you stay on?

[debyt]

A practical logic to use could be to say, "I need distance to see whether the relationship can be healed."  He will resist that but perhaps others here will have a better way to say that.  Frankly, though, unless he is in effective and progressing therapy, making solid progress, the relationship will never become healthy and functional. 

Have you been in my closet? I have said exactly those words!  I told him I needed him to get MMPI testing and go to regular counseling.  He agreed to do that but wants to stay in the house while he does this.  I explained that He triggers my father figure issues and then I trigger him with my defensive arguments to his inquisitions. He has resisted and wants to live in the garage with NC... .NOT HAPPENING... .  Yes, I am getting off this roller coaster of insanity.

I plan to follow the lawyer's directions and do exactly what he says.  He is a retired judge in our county and a business associate.  Things will GET WORSE.  I know that.  Does anyone have any respectful tactics to use?