What to do when they JADE?

[Sunfl0wer]

I have a hard time talking to someone at work.  It is my job to make recommendations, however, often when I do, she cuts me off to JADE and I have a hard time getting my point across.

Can you guys help me with these communication tools or how to handle this?

(This is not my partner, she is likely codependent, not BPD I don't think, hopefully my post is ok here?)

I ended up stating: I'm not judging.  I need to explain/educate because... . 

So when it is my job to make a recommendation, and the other person keeps becoming defensive, how do I quickly move the conversation to be more productive vs doing a verbal dance around her defensiveness?

I ended up feeling that a lot of valuable time was wasted and not focused on the solution, therefore I ended up spending extra time to put all of my recommendations in writing even though they were simple things I wouldn't usually write out.  I think the written instructions helped me to feel that at least someone can see that there was actually a solution recommended and work that was attempted vs thinking that I was the one wasting time.

Any thoughts?

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[Notwendy]

I think that writing things out is a good idea, as long as you are careful not to make any emotional statements. I find that this works well with my H. His first response to me is negative, but if I think about it- it is JADE. To him, a suggestion sounds like a criticism, and his first impulse is to defend himself. If he thinks the suggestion is a hurtful criticism, then he will aim to hurt back. I am trying to comprehend why someone would do this. His family is passive aggressive. If they had a suggestion, they would do it indirectly or in some round about way.  A direct suggestion is seen as a threat.  Also someone with BPD are also co-dependent in a sense ( basing their self image on others) although not all co-dependents have BPD. (IMHO).

When I send written suggestions, like in an e mail, I bypass the knee jerk reaction of being attacked- or if he has it, I am not there to see it. He can take his time to digest it. Somehow written information is easier to get the message to him as it doesn't include the emotionality of my voice or facial expressions that can be misinterpreted.

Sometimes he has told me that he understands things much better if I write them out. Then there is no question if I ask him later, he can't say " you never told me!"

It is hard to say how your co-worker feels, but this may explain some of it. You don't want to single her out, but just say you are implementing a personal preference to make suggestions in writing, and then, see how it goes.

[vortex of confusion]

My first question is "Where do the two of you sit on the food chain?" Are you her superior, equivalent, or inferior?

In a work situation, I would stop trying to talk to her directly and would instead write out very clear and concise e-mails. If need be, CC it to the higher ups to cover your butt. Workplace politics can be a bear if not approached with tact.

[Sunfl0wer]

Thank you for responding guys!

Yes Notwendy, that is exactly the issue!  My words are automatically interpreted as criticism even before they come out.  Then we get derailed trying to address emotional issues and/or redirect to the work at hand.  I am trying to find balance in not coming off as cold, but it takes away from the job when I am cut off mid sentence and confronted with this defensive ramble... .and my job is only as effective as the person can be receptive, so if they are being emotional and not really able to hear me, then the time is lost that could have been used in the formulation of the solution part of the process.

Maybe I can explain the work dynamic more for more clarity VOC:

I am there to provide a service to my client.  The client has an assistant. 

(In this example, the assistant is actually coD and client has PD, but the PD person is not hindering the process)

It is my job to both provided direct services to the client and also consult with the assistant to make suggestions, offer professional opinions on ways to adjust/improve the performance of the assistant and to facilitate her to implement systems I've created.

So the assistant was frustrated a system wasn't working and let me know she is looking to resolve this and wants my opinion for solutions.  (This is my consult role... .all good)

I reply that I need to know what the current system is in place.  (We need to analyze and break it down to see where the problems are and see what is working.)

She answers some vague answer.

I rephrase and ask more specific questions to try to force her to break it down to me in the steps, drawing out the info every step of the way. 

She becomes defensive... .goes on a JADE tangent.  Now not only am I not able to hear the current system, how the heck am I supposed to modify it if she is going to spend the minutes JADEing?

I'm forced to make recommendations based on partial info. (Not too big an issue, not my preference, but it can still work)

One of my work problems is that often the client and/or the assistant do not recognize the value of the consult portion of my work and therefore see it as "just talking," vs imperative to the whole outcome/system.

So when it appeared that the assistant was annoyed that we "were talking" I decided to make an abrupt stop in the conversation and announce, "My role is not to judge, I'm not judging at all, I need to know this to help solve this." "What we are doing now is the consult portion now and this is important stuff that we are talking about and it is ok that we focus on the consult aspect right now as we need the whole system to work even when no one is here to ensure that."  What I think she heard was: You are not doing your role effectively. Tell me how you wrecked it.  (Not at all my message).

I just wish to more effectively communicate in a way that people will listen easily.  I know that  sometimes things are harder to hear and people don't want to hear advice/opinions and I need to just RA it, however if there is anything I can do to make it easier for others to listen/follow the system/stay focused then it just makes what I'm doing better, and also makes me feel that I have grown from the process!

Thanks for listening!

[Sunfl0wer]

 I just was rereading what I wrote... .I think I figured out part of my problem:

I like to spend the consult time working through the problem solving aspect with all people involved.  I find that usually a collaborative effort gets the best results when trying to create the system.  I like for us to bounce around ideas and problem solve together.  My problem is that while this method usually works for the majority of my clients, there are some that it doesn't.

When I encounter this I need to:

1.  Recognize that I am working with a person with limited collaboration abilities. (Harder said than done... .often I engage and continue to "reason", "make them a contributor"

2. Gather info quickly/ accept the blanks they will not provide (vs trying to make them see the light and my good intentions)

3. Move on to the brainstorming, creation of system solo

4. Return with my advice written out

Review the info and get feedback (after the fact of already creating the system)... .That way... .I am still doing my job, it is mostly complete... .and now with their objections put at the end of my process vs the middle... .they cannot derail me from completing things... .and we can modify as needed.

Or... .

I can get a sheet of paper with "Consult" or something written on top.  When I enter "consult" mode I can whip out the paper and track anything useful they are trying to contribute... .thus increasing their motivation to stay on track and contribute useful vs emotional info.  Then they see on paper... .what work was done.  Then I can write out key focus words... .to help us make a list... .and help me redirect to the topic at hand.

[vortex of confusion]

I can get a sheet of paper with "Consult" or something written on top.  When I enter "consult" mode I can whip out the paper and track anything useful they are trying to contribute... .thus increasing their motivation to stay on track and contribute useful vs emotional info.  Then they see on paper... .what work was done.  Then I can write out key focus words... .to help us make a list... .and help me redirect to the topic at hand.

Would it be possible to create a consult worksheet that is kind of like a standardized form that would give you a script to work from so that IF things start to veer too far off into the emotional then you can use validation tools to validate the emotion and then steer things back to the worksheet.

Also, if you have standard consult questions, would it be possible to e-mail the questions/form in advance so that you can have information to work from in advance?

[Fian]

I also agree that asking for information up front via email might also make things more effective.  Then you can ask for them to fill in the blanks in an in-person meeting.  That way you get more information, regardless of whether they JADE.

The other approach, which is more nuclear.  Is involve their boss and say that you don't want to discuss emotions in your meeting.  This is about work.  You need answers to questions about the job.  If they want to justify what they did, they can explain that to their boss.  Your role is not to judge them, just to analytically look at the system, identify the problem points, and propose solutions.

Personally, I would probably go with the nuclear option, but then people skills are not my strong point.  (:

[OffRoad]

If email is not an option (at any time in the consultation), use a lot of words when explaining. Instead of simply saying "What is the current system that is in place?" Say "In order to help figure out how best to improve the system, would you please explain to me the current system in place, what part is working well, what part could use improvement, and what part is not working at all?"

Yes, it is a crudload of extra words, but I find that all those extra words are needed for people with thin skins. In the above, you have already said that you believe part of it is working well, there for this assistant is doing SOMEthing right. You also ask for her input on what needs to be changed instead of coming across as "Tell me what is going wrong so I can fix it." People like to be part of the solution.

[Sunfl0wer]

Email actually is not practical in this situation.  I do not know the problem system we are trying to resolve ahead of time often. It is also not even allowed. (For legal protection issues... .not my preference... .but I have emailed in the past and was told this is not ok)

<sub>I am however, having an issue with boundaries at work:

I tend to stay later than I have to.

I tend to take work home with me more than necessary.

I tend to listen, when I could probably find better ways to redirect.

I tend to sympathize vs empathize.

I tend to take on a caretaking role of people's feelings. 

I really want to work on these things within myself.

The dilemma I feel is that once in a while... .Staying late is ok... .not codependent. So how do I identify when it is ok vs me helping too much?  Is it about the individual act of over helping?  Or maybe an accumulation of repeating over helping?  Or how we feel about it?  Or the function it serves in the r/s dynamic?</sub>

Oops... .back to topic... .

I think a problem solving form/worksheet of some sort will definitely help.  I will google to see what I can find.  (It is a different, very customized problem/solution every time... .so a general problem solving worksheet will have to suffice.).  Thanks VOC and Fian!

Fian, there is no boss to oversee this.  It is my job to facilitate the whole process.  I'm starting to think I may be interested in some sort of advanced business communications course to sharpen my communication skills.  Humm... .

Thanks OffRoad, I DID use A LOT of extra words... .I broke the darn process into the tiniest yes/no questions I could to make it easier!  Lol! I got so specific to ask: "At noon, tell me if... .such and such happens.  Who implements that part?"  The more specific I got... .thinking I was being helpful... .the more I realized this person was JADEing.  Obviously she was predefensive and scared of me judging and trying to avoid giving info... .so the more I probed, the more she JADEd!  Lol! But it is my JOB to give the feedback... .AND in this situation... .SHE specifically requested it!   The funny thing is... .this is EXACTLY what I did in my r/s with N/BPDex!  He would JADE... .and I would try to help facilitate better communication.  But it RARELY worked! 

I think I need to start being aware of what the other person is capable of... .communication/emotion wise... .and lower my expectations vs trying to facilitate them to work where I'm at?  How do you guys do that?  It is easy for me to tell a person needs me to "dumb it down," and I do that automatically.  However, what is confusing to me, is identifying a normally bright person who is not following logic due to an emotional block that they are having.  I am logical... .I have a harder time identifying that my logic is ineffective when there is an emotional issue they are having... .I think applying more logic will "fix" it.

I feel like if I can find the answer on how to manage this lady... .then I will also have resolved an extreme important aspect of my coD r/s dynamic!

Thanks all!

[Sunfl0wer]

Reading over my thoughts... .leads to new thoughts... .

If I try to recall my internal dialogue about the situation it would go something like this:

She really wants a solution.

I really want to have the answer to help solve this problem.  It will benefit us both.

Let's do this!

Work with me here lady.

She is struggling to listen/focus.  I will repeat it so she can hear it.  She is still struggling to focus.  I will modify my language, break it down, simplify my language.  I can see she mistakes my questions for attacks, I know she likely has a difficult history... .based on previous conversations with her, and this is the source of her behavior.  I do not need to be offended or take it personal.  Maybe if I can soothe her and prove to her that I am on her side, she can listen and we can get back on track?

This is where I think I need to make some cognitive shift!  I need to not take responsibility to soothe, I do not need to be on anyone's side.  I need to put a boundary here! 

So how do I get aware and change this in the heat of the moment?

Also, I think this is why I end up "attracting" disordered persons.  I think the average person would have been confused at her JADEing vs empathizing. I think the average person would have thought, she is a difficult person and confusing me, let me limit these interactions.

I think the fact that I am numb to her JADEing, meaning I do not take it personally is the reason I ended up with a r/s with a N/BPDexbf.  My self, instead of being confused like the avg non coD and turned off by his internal struggle, I related to it and felt obligation to provide empathy where he likely had little.

So that was so helpful to get out of my head... .I feel like I have a bit more clarity... .a small piece in focus... .

So how do I undo this dynamic with this lady without an extinction burst! (I may just wait it out until the r/s ends... .as it is a temporary situation and an extinction burst could mean a complaint... .not good)

[Fian]

To clarify what I said before, I was not saying to speak to your boss - speak to hers.  Her behavior is counter-productive and she needs to stop.  You aren't her boyfriend, so she should be able to have a business only discussion.  If she wants to JADE, she can do that with her boss to explain why she took the actions that she did.

Anyway, I am not sure that is the best approach to take, but it is an alternative action to consider.

[Sunfl0wer]

Fian, thank you for offering alternatives, I certainly always appreciate gathering as many approaches that could work and want different perspectives that I may not have considered!



However, in this situation, complaining to her boss is not a good idea.  This would open up an investigation for her behavior and cost everyone a lot time in the process... .no one wants a minute of wasted time... .and even just the phone call would be viewed as such and not welcome at all.

I am less interested in fixing her behavior to force her to comply... .but want to learn a way to be effective and efficient when dealing with people that are blocking communication. 

This issue will come up again and again for me... .I want to have an approach that I am confident about implementing independently... .and see if I can do anything solo to get a better result in these situations.

Thank you again for listening and sharing!

[an0ught]

When someone JADEs they are defensive and they are afraid not being heard and understood. In that state a pwBPD is not receptive so any communication from our side probably needs a bit of suspending. A good strategy is to let them talk out (there are studies that show doctors are more effective if they let the patient talk out initially). Bite your tongue for a while. Then validate to ensure the other side sees they are understood. Then proceed with your agenda.

JADE is a sign for poor boundaries and insecurity on the pwBPD side. Gently strengthening boundaries can also be done through PUVAS:

- Pay attention

- Understand fully

- Validate emotions

- Assert yourself

- Shift responsibility where it belongs

[Sunfl0wer]

When someone JADEs they are defensive and they are afraid not being heard and understood. In that state a pwBPD is not receptive so any communication from our side probably needs a bit of suspending. A good strategy is to let them talk out (there are studies that show doctors are more effective if they let the patient talk out initially). Bite your tongue for a while. Then validate to ensure the other side sees they are understood. Then proceed with your agenda.

JADE is a sign for poor boundaries and insecurity on the pwBPD side. Gently strengthening boundaries can also be done through PUVAS:

- Pay attention

- Understand fully

- Validate emotions

- Assert yourself

- Shift responsibility where it belongs

Thank you!  I have not tried PUVAS at all.  Does it need to be in sequence order the way SET is?

[an0ught]

Hi Sunfl0wer,

yes, I think order plays a major role. Validation always comes first. Besides helping the other person it is a good way to feel the temperature and warm ourselves up. This is where our self management can make a huge difference. If we can manage to stop ourselves for a moment and put the things into the right order we will be more effective.

Having said that order plays a big role I also think we got to be realistic. DEARMAN is a 7 step process and while we all may agree and celebrate it the reality is that it takes skills to get through SET with 3 steps. For 7 steps back and forth in an emotionally charged environment with a person who is not so logical and us being fearful... .My brain is too limited for such gymnastics and I try to break DEARMAN down in 3-4 stages (being clear what I want, being assertive, being mindful/flexible and negotiate/close).

I have not paid too much attention to PUVAS myself for a long time. Recently I realized that what I'm doing all the time - SET with T being "this is where I see the responsibilities of each side" is close to PUVAS. If you think about it like that then it is not a big step up 

Nowadays I think PUVAS is a good hygiene tool to keep boundaries clean and up-to-date.

[waverider]

Where possible prompt the other person to come up with solutions and then guide from there, even if it morphs into something completely different, rather than say "I think xyz will that work?" which triggers the reasons why it wont.

The principle is they want to have a say (like a role in a debate) so if you start on the affirmative they will naturally take up the negative. So by allowing them to start on the affirmative then you can better control the "negative".

A lot depends on the initial stance taken up, once that is set it is hard to reverse it. It has a lot to do with validating someones worth from the get go.

Good therapists will always spend a lot of more time asking clients what they feel would be a good thing to do rather than telling them what they think.

[Sunfl0wer]

Thank you anought! I will have to come back here and give this a go and practice this here!  DEARMAN is also unfamiliar to me, so I will have to read up on both first.

Waverider,  well maybe I should be posting this in personal awareness board. :/. I just feel a bit like the staying board is very solution/skills oriented and this is what I missed out on... .I wish I found you guys earlier so I could learn the skills in the context of the r/s.

The person I was communicating has coD issues, the client has PD, however this was a workplace situation.

I am paid to tell these people what to do, my information should be the value to them... .NOT listening to their feelings!  Lol! I want to learn how to stop allowing myself to get sidetracked by their lack of listening due to the emotion they are having.  There is a little room for that... .as long as we can quickly redirect to the process and get back to being productive about the system.

[waverider]

Thank you anought! I will have to come back here and give this a go and practice this here!  DEARMAN is also unfamiliar to me, so I will have to read up on both first.

Waverider,  well maybe I should be posting this in personal awareness board. :/. I just feel a bit like the staying board is very solution/skills oriented and this is what I missed out on... .I wish I found you guys earlier so I could learn the skills in the context of the r/s.

The person I was communicating has coD issues, the client has PD, however this was a workplace situation.

I am paid to tell these people what to do, my information should be the value to them... .NOT listening to their feelings!  Lol! I want to learn how to stop allowing myself to get sidetracked by their lack of listening due to the emotion they are having.  There is a little room for that... .as long as we can quickly redirect to the process and get back to being productive about the system.

A lot of the skills we promote here, even though initially to help with a BPD partner, are actually useful life skills for use in everyday interactions. I know it can sound like counselling them, but ultimately it needs to be more subtle than that, for if a pwBPD feels they are being counselled it comes across as patronizing and defeats the purpose. It is more about putting us in a more open frame of mind and helping us to not invalidate. After a while it becomes subtle and subconscious, and other people lower their guard when communicating with you.

The tools oil the wheels of personal interactions

[123Phoebe]

It is more about putting us in a more open frame of mind and helping us to not invalidate.

This is important.  Equally as important is to not validate the invalid, as I believe that is where we get sidetracked.

[an0ught]

One of the things we have to be careful is with flexibility. Compromise is good but can be bad in the wrong places.

One of the values DEARMAN and PUVAS provide is that within these structures there are dedicated places where we assert our view of reality. That view may well be uncompromising, possibly a bit b&w to make it more crisp. That view is ours, we take full ownership, it is our position statement and it is totally ok if the other person does not fully agree or holds widely opposite views.

Within the framework of the discussion and negotiation we again are taking a balanced stance, are flexible and willing to compromise.

Why?

1) We anchor our position. There is obvious value in the shifting sands of BPD for that.

2) We avoid acting passive-aggressive which can easily happen when we mix our goals with our view and project the latter.

3) It provides clarity, being better understood is a good basis for discussion.

We assert our position but we push for a shared solution.