first post

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hi all,

Introducing myself for the first time and wanted to say thank you for all your posts and advice that I've been reading (but not posting) for about 6 months.  It really helps to read the advice and the support on this board.

A bit about my experience.  There's a lot, but will try to get it out in a nutshell and also where we all are today.  I am supporting my sister and her kids S16, D11 through a separation with my BPD BIL (brother in law, sorry, don't know all the lingo on here yet).  He is NPD / BPD, undiagnosed, but diagnosed with BiPolar and a 20 yr addict of marijuana.  Our family got him into 30 day drug and trauma treatment last year after his unsuccessful suicide attempt in front of her (which he now says he faked because he was "angry".   During the crises of my sister filing for separation, he was in treatment and based on his previous erratic, unstable, and emotionally abusive behavior and rage - the family helped her get an OOP (Order of Protection) so after his 30 day he could not come back to the house.  We did not feel confident the treatment would come anywhere close to treating his real issue - BPD/NPD.  We just wanted to give her breathing room from his chaos and drama and he was escalating - even while being in a psych hospital for 7 days and going to an intensive out patient to get his meds adjusted and make sure he was stable. 

He was extremely unstable, even more unstable because he knew she was contemplating leaving him and said she was after the suicide attempt.   In the IOP, he snowed all the counselors that he was just fine but would come home and act erratic, harassing my sister, demanding to know if they were going to stay together or not.  She was afraid he was going to do something to himself in front of the kids.

(Keep in mind in all of this that our Mom committed suicide when my sister was 5 and I was 3 - so him threatening to kill himself to her on a repeated basis if she asked him to stop smoking pot, get help, get out of the house and get a job - he would just silence her by threatening suicide.

After the suicide attempt, my sister asked him not to speak about it to their S16 until they had a chance to talk to a therapist.  Before he went in for psych treatment (2 days after the attempt), he took S16 for a walk and told him exactly how he tried to kill himself - without telling my sister.  The S16 began crying at the table 2 days later and told my sister he was stressed out and had anxiety and was concerned about his father.

So by BIL effectively switched what he was doing to my sister - to my nephew.  He took him hostage and played the victim so his S16 felt sorry for him, felt the need to care for him, and set up a parental alienation scenario (which has increased over the year) that my sister was to blame and responsible for the Dad's actions.

Fast forward to know (as there is a lot of stuff imbetween) - but he done everything to turn up the alienation of the S16 from my sister (And me, who has been flying in to help keep her strong and help with the kids for the last year for weeks at a time).  Everyone that helps my sister is painted black.  His tactic is to isolate her and create chaos and pain, whereby she might just change her mind and come back to him.

We are in the grey area of the temporary agreement they have been working under for a year, she has informed him she is not reconciling (he flipped out and threatened her in a parking lot after that therapy session - therapy session was mandated in their temp agreement) and harassed her with hundreds of texts that were a violation of the OOP and she could have had him arrested but did not because of the kids and in particular the S16.  So we just documented.

This guy plays the victim to his family and anyone who will listen (his D11's friend's parents, neighbors, anyone) and she is to blame for everything because she is "controlling and excessive".

Yet she has a very demanding executive job and pays the bills for the entire family - including him and will end up paying him spousal support while he reduces his work hours and contributes ZERO to the kids monetarily, not their college fund, nothing.

So, again, where we are at today... .They just turned in Discovery statements.  She got his Discovery back yesterday where he claims his parental concerns for her are that she is "overly controlling and excessive".  Also, that she has alcoholic tendencies because he alleges she has driven under the influence and the kids have witnessed it. Also that she has accused the son falsely of smoking and he has "passed urine test". (not true, she has been testing him and he's failed 2x in the last year - this just makes him look like an ass now because he's been caught with it a 4th time).

She is in a tough spot because the S16 has just been caught for the 4th time in the last year smoking pot - with pot in his car, directly out in the open. (he just got his license this year).  She has final legal decision making authority so informed the BPDex that on the advice of his current therapist - she will be bringing S16 in for a substance abuse evaluation and intensive outpatient teen program.

He is already starting to undermine her decision and parenting by talking directly to the son and asking her for pictures of the pot.  She is not sending the pictures (we feel it's a trap anyway because he could call the police and say that she has pot in her possession in hopes to get her arrested) and said unless he wants to discuss a treatment plan and address the email she sent - there is nothing to discuss.  She is documenting his non-response to the original email that the S16 was found with pot in his car and his unwillingness as a united parent to discuss next steps.

She has sent 2 proposed summer schedule parenting plans to him and he will not respond or agree to either of them, yet wants to pick up the kids by texting the same day and uses the "maximum flexibility" clause for his S16 frequently (and coaches the S16 to use that language as well).

I know the above is a lot to digest, but if anyone has any advice on how to combat the parental alienation WHILE trying to get their child help for a drug problem and could use tips on how to document the BPDex unwillingness to communicate in a rational coherent way.

Also, she is in a grey area until mediation and he is all over the place with the schedule.  He leaves for 15 days (good riddance) but when he's home wants to pick up the kids in the middle of the day (She says no because they are operating under the temp agreement and it only specified kids in school - not that he gets them).

Basically, he just wants to create chaos before mediation because he is full of rage and wants to "get her", wind up his S16 as a ticking time bomb to send back into the house and also alienate him from his Mom - the one stable person in his life who can get him help.

Basically, his goal is to wear her down (even though she pays all his bills and medical insurance) and have her completely frazzled until they get into mediation and/or court.

Any feedback or tips on how to deal with the S16 situation, preparing for mediation / court based on his accusations, etc. would help.

This guy is out for maximum damage for being "left" and humiliated because she is finally standing up to him and not taking his abuse.

Thank you!

[Hard Rock]

Hi all,

Introducing myself for the first time and wanted to say thank you for all your posts and advice that I've been reading (but not posting) for about 6 months.  It really helps to read the advice and the support on this board.

A bit about my experience.  There's a lot, but will try to get it out in a nutshell and also where we all are today.  I am supporting my sister and her kids S16, D11 through a separation with my BPD BIL (brother in law, sorry, don't know all the lingo on here yet).  He is NPD / BPD, undiagnosed, but diagnosed with BiPolar and a 20 yr addict of marijuana.  Our family got him into 30 day drug and trauma treatment last year after his unsuccessful suicide attempt in front of her (which he now says he faked because he was "angry".   During the crises of my sister filing for separation, he was in treatment and based on his previous erratic, unstable, and emotionally abusive behavior and rage - the family helped her get an OOP (Order of Protection) so after his 30 day he could not come back to the house.  We did not feel confident the treatment would come anywhere close to treating his real issue - BPD/NPD.  We just wanted to give her breathing room from his chaos and drama and he was escalating - even while being in a psych hospital for 7 days and going to an intensive out patient to get his meds adjusted and make sure he was stable. 

He was extremely unstable, even more unstable because he knew she was contemplating leaving him and said she was after the suicide attempt.   In the IOP, he snowed all the counselors that he was just fine but would come home and act erratic, harassing my sister, demanding to know if they were going to stay together or not.  She was afraid he was going to do something to himself in front of the kids.

(Keep in mind in all of this that our Mom committed suicide when my sister was 5 and I was 3 - so him threatening to kill himself to her on a repeated basis if she asked him to stop smoking pot, get help, get out of the house and get a job - he would just silence her by threatening suicide.

After the suicide attempt, my sister asked him not to speak about it to their S16 until they had a chance to talk to a therapist.  Before he went in for psych treatment (2 days after the attempt), he took S16 for a walk and told him exactly how he tried to kill himself - without telling my sister.  The S16 began crying at the table 2 days later and told my sister he was stressed out and had anxiety and was concerned about his father.

So by BIL effectively switched what he was doing to my sister - to my nephew.  He took him hostage and played the victim so his S16 felt sorry for him, felt the need to care for him, and set up a parental alienation scenario (which has increased over the year) that my sister was to blame and responsible for the Dad's actions.

Fast forward to know (as there is a lot of stuff imbetween) - but he done everything to turn up the alienation of the S16 from my sister (And me, who has been flying in to help keep her strong and help with the kids for the last year for weeks at a time).  Everyone that helps my sister is painted black.  His tactic is to isolate her and create chaos and pain, whereby she might just change her mind and come back to him.

We are in the grey area of the temporary agreement they have been working under for a year, she has informed him she is not reconciling (he flipped out and threatened her in a parking lot after that therapy session - therapy session was mandated in their temp agreement) and harassed her with hundreds of texts that were a violation of the OOP and she could have had him arrested but did not because of the kids and in particular the S16.  So we just documented.

This guy plays the victim to his family and anyone who will listen (his D11's friend's parents, neighbors, anyone) and she is to blame for everything because she is "controlling and excessive".

Yet she has a very demanding executive job and pays the bills for the entire family - including him and will end up paying him spousal support while he reduces his work hours and contributes ZERO to the kids monetarily, not their college fund, nothing.

So, again, where we are at today... .They just turned in Discovery statements.  She got his Discovery back yesterday where he claims his parental concerns for her are that she is "overly controlling and excessive".  Also, that she has alcoholic tendencies because he alleges she has driven under the influence and the kids have witnessed it. Also that she has accused the son falsely of smoking and he has "passed urine test". (not true, she has been testing him and he's failed 2x in the last year - this just makes him look like an ass now because he's been caught with it a 4th time).

She is in a tough spot because the S16 has just been caught for the 4th time in the last year smoking pot - with pot in his car, directly out in the open. (he just got his license this year).  She has final legal decision making authority so informed the BPDex that on the advice of his current therapist - she will be bringing S16 in for a substance abuse evaluation and intensive outpatient teen program.

He is already starting to undermine her decision and parenting by talking directly to the son and asking her for pictures of the pot.  She is not sending the pictures (we feel it's a trap anyway because he could call the police and say that she has pot in her possession in hopes to get her arrested) and said unless he wants to discuss a treatment plan and address the email she sent - there is nothing to discuss.  She is documenting his non-response to the original email that the S16 was found with pot in his car and his unwillingness as a united parent to discuss next steps.

She has sent 2 proposed summer schedule parenting plans to him and he will not respond or agree to either of them, yet wants to pick up the kids by texting the same day and uses the "maximum flexibility" clause for his S16 frequently (and coaches the S16 to use that language as well).

I know the above is a lot to digest, but if anyone has any advice on how to combat the parental alienation WHILE trying to get their child help for a drug problem and could use tips on how to document the BPDex unwillingness to communicate in a rational coherent way.

Also, she is in a grey area until mediation and he is all over the place with the schedule.  He leaves for 15 days (good riddance) but when he's home wants to pick up the kids in the middle of the day (She says no because they are operating under the temp agreement and it only specified kids in school - not that he gets them).

Basically, he just wants to create chaos before mediation because he is full of rage and wants to "get her", wind up his S16 as a ticking time bomb to send back into the house and also alienate him from his Mom - the one stable person in his life who can get him help.

Basically, his goal is to wear her down (even though she pays all his bills and medical insurance) and have her completely frazzled until they get into mediation and/or court.

Any feedback or tips on how to deal with the S16 situation, preparing for mediation / court based on his accusations, etc. would help.

This guy is out for maximum damage for being "left" and humiliated because she is finally standing up to him and not taking his abuse.

Thank you!

[livednlearned]

Hi Tangoburger,

I know it feels like a lot to share -- so much of it rings true to what many of us experience, and I'm glad you posted to let us know what you and your sister are dealing with. It's comforting to know that she has you, someone who has her back.

The best expert on parental alienation that I know of is Dr. Craig Childress. His recommendation with PA is to basically do a therapeutic separation from the alienating parent. As hard as it is, getting S16 into a treatment program and removing him from his dad's influence could be the most important thing to happen. Especially now before S16 is emancipated and becomes an adult.

I'm not a lawyer, and things are different depending on where you live. It's important to talk to a lawyer to find out what the laws are and get an outline of a strategy. But the hospitalization and OOP, plus attempted suicide attempt, and his inability to cooperate about the parenting plans are a deep hole for him to dig out of. If your sister's strategy was to tell the court he is a danger to himself, and a danger to S16, who has been caught 4x doing pot, and mom is concerned he will follow in his father's footsteps, the allegations from BPD BIL that your sister is "excessive and controlling" aren't going to carry much weight.

The key is to go into the hearing with a detailed plan about what to do, in order to avoid having a judge made the full decision. Most courts want the parents to figure things out. If a parent is a danger, then it's important to go in there being clear that you, the stable parent, understands he is a danger. And to counter any allegations very bluntly. "The allegations that my client has a drinking problem are summarily false and there is no evidence, real nor imagined, to substantiate these claims. BPD BIL is seeking to malign my client out of fear that his history, of which there is substantiated and exhaustive evidence, will put his relationship with his kids in jeopardy." Or whatever lawyers say.

And then tell the judge, "We want S16 to enter a month-long treatment program with no contact with his dad unless the court sees fit that there is supervision, and visitation terminated if any talk of pot or suicide is mentioned. We also ask that dad undergo anger management and substance abuse treatment, and get a court-ordered MMPI-2 psych evaluation within the next 30 days. If the court will, your honor, we request that visitation be supervised until BPD BIL has shown proof of treatment, and the kids under therapy to help them make sense of the suicidal ideation and substance abuse."

What courts desperately want to see is a reasonable solution. Be the problem-solver who has a plan that the judge can get behind. A lot of lawyers don't do this because their clients aren't on the ball, and the Ls may not care. You also want to have consequences for non-compliance if the judge does adopt your plan. For example, if the OOP is violated, or if he messes with S16's treatment.

Your sister is probably worn down beyond exhausted and terrified about S16 drifting toward his dad. As hard as it is, she needs to bring the full force of reality down on S16 now while she still has some influence. Otherwise, at age 18, he will go live with his dad and that's not the scenario anyone wants to see.

As for his messing with the schedule. She can file an ex parte motion for suspension of emergency visitation (ask a lawyer if she would need an OOP in addition) -- or whatever equivalent you might have where you live. This tells the court something serious is happening, and the court often approves it until a hearing to be determined (in some states, it has to occur within 6 weeks -- mine went on for 4 months).

What worked in my case was having a lot of court-ordered boundaries that my ex kept violating. Court starts to see that a parent can't control his behavior and has no regard for court orders, and then starts to side with the stable parent. So the sooner you can erect court boundaries, the better.

In some instances, court will not look at things that are older than six months. In theory. The debacle with BIL going to an inpatient treatment a year ago will probably be relevant. Something to ask an L about.

I don't know if this is true in your case -- but in my own experience, the counter claim and discovery was just theater. The judge doesn't even read it. Most lawyers and judges know that feelings and emotions are running hut at the beginning of the separation, and tend to expect there will be a cooling off period. I think they pretty much expect mud-slinging in those documents. My ex, a raging alcoholic, accused me of being an alcoholic when I had been darn near tee totaling for the majority of our marriage. My L didn't even address it and stayed on the offensive in an assertive way. If I remember correctly, my L told me that if N/BPDx was her client, she would get him into AA immediately to show the court he knew he had a problem. Lawyers know that if their clients admit they have a problem they are working on, it will go better for them. This would probably extend to a child. Meaning, if the dad has a pot problem, and the child is developing one, a healthy, recovering parent would say, "My son needs treatment too." Only an addict would deny that his addicted son doesn't need treatment. In court, there is a fine line between admitting guilt and being punished, and admitting guilt and earning trust. When it comes to addictions and behaviors that are documented, it's best to own it and discuss how, as a parent, you're going to deal with your problem. My guess is that BIL won't be able to do that, if only because your sister suggests it. This is how you use BPD against them -- their weakness is that they do not want anything you want, even if wanting it will get them a favorable outcome in court.

Hopefully, BIL's lawyer is reputable and will encourage his client to get into treatment (or encourage him to support S16 getting treatment), knowing that he will be on the defensive if things go to court, based on his documented history. Tell your sister to stand her ground in mediation -- it might be best to be in separate rooms, and to have you there to help her stay strong. That way, the other L can work on his client. Most L's want to settle, they don't want to go to court. If your sister is in the room, your BIL might not back down as easily as he would with a neutral mediator and an L.

Sorry for the long post! I know it's a lot to take in. She has a lot working in her favor, and if she can arrange a substantial separation from BIL and S16, that will help break the spell of parental alienation. Look up Dr. Craig Childress online -- his blog has a lot of information on it, including recommendations for dealing with PA. Basically, he recommends a big long separation from the alienating parent while the child is stabilized with therapy.

[getting_better]

Hey, Tango - so sorry to read about your struggles for you and your sister and her kids. So many of us on these boards have dealt with similar behavior.  You're in the right place.

I separated from my dBPDw last year and filed for divorce last month. I've been reading Bill Eddy's book "Splitting: Protecting Yourself When Divorcing Somebody with BPD", and there's a lot in there that's very helpful for the family court system.

Just wanted to give you a quick bit of advice from his book.  He recommends not going into court and calling the disorder by name - this doesn't fly well in a court setting without an actual mental health expert there to lay it down and back it up.  He suggests sticking with behaviors.  I've committed to memory the nine factors of BPD as set forth in the most recent version of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) - the universally accepted handbook for all mental health professionals.  These behaviors are textbook BPD, but they paint the picture of instability that seem to read better in court: 

Your BIL has a history of:

- Recurring suicidal threats

- intense and unstable interpersonal relationships

- Severe mood shifts

- Severe emotional reactivity to stressful situations

Hope this helps.  Your sister and her kids are lucky to have you!

[Hard Rock]

Thanks for the good advice everyone.

I have contacted Dr. Childress for a consultation regarding the PA of the S16.  We also have the book Divorce Poison.

Many people are advising to limit the time with the father - but this is a 50/50 state and my sister knows that will be a real battle as he's already worked the S16 over for a year.  I'm sure he's even prepared him for court to make statements about his Mom if a custody evaluator or mediator should get involved (which is bound to happen in this situation)

Now the stbxBIL is saying he never disagreed my sister to get treatment for the son, but he did send an email stating he was worried if the son got in patient treatment (my sister never suggested in patient - only an evaluation and possible group therapy to start) for his marijuana usage that his friends and respected elders "might look down on him and it would be embarrassing".  I'd love to ask him if admitting his son needs help would be more embarrassing than the S16 losing his life and/or his license until he is 25 when the cops catch him at 16 (his 1st year of having his DL) with an illegal substance in his car?

The stbxBIL now changed his tune on getting him treatment because someone (maybe his lawyer) probably advised him that it won't look very good when they start the court process if he did not agree to get his son help/treatment when he claims his own treatment (which my sister had to force him into) for his 20 yr addiction to marijuana claims it helped him and his is "completely healthy" now and gain tools. (now he's trying to paint the picture that she's the one who is mentally ill and sick).

He also is probably afraid that during the course of treatment of his S16 (which involves parental participation) that his alienation will be exposed or his own game playing with the kids will be exposed somehow.

Does anyone have a bullet proof way to document? 

She was texting him during this past year, but is now only emailing.  She has his lame original response for her request for him to discuss and agree that S16 to get some treatment and to please not undermine the process for the sake of his own son's healthy and well-being.

(it is stipulated in their temp agreement from last year to use Google Calendar or parenting schedule and once they go to mediation, her lawyer will request they move to OFW)

But what she's really looking for is a way to document before mediation all his contact schedule changes AND the things the son has spewed at his mother which is a direct result of Parental Alienation.

How have you all documented parental alienation effectively?