How to validate that she believes people hate her

[formflier]

So... .I can be a bit thick in the head... .or sometimes slow to get going on what the obvious next step is in my r/s... .and my personal growth.

I have a habit of complimenting people... .which is good.  I do not have the habit of validating people... .

I hear things... .and I check my situational awareness to see if I believe it... .vice identifying with the other persons feelings... .and validating that feeling.

I used to try to point out errors in my wife's thinking  "INVALIDATION"... .that is bad.  I think I'm doing well in this category... .most of the time I just have to keep my mouth shut.

So... .I got pitched a fastball yesterday... .a couple... .and watched them pass by without swinging.  3 strikes and I was out... .without a swing.

Wife had her sub job cancelled at the last minute.  Came home and was convinced someone stole her IPAD and that her job was cancelled because the other teachers hate her.  (I've been told by several administrators that I trust... .and teachers that I trust... .that she is excellent in the classroom)  I've also peeked in doors before while she was teaching... .and she is excellent.  So... .my mind is screaming at me... .that she is good... .and there is no reason for others to hate here.

She gets out several sentences about this topic.  The final thing she said was to identify a person... .and she said that Miss so and so absolutely hates me... .(this woman always looks like a sourpuss to me... .)  We are lying in bed... .I was resting my head on her chest/stomach area.  "mmmm" came out a couple times but I didn't really speak any words... .  I was trying to formulate a validating statement... .but it felt burdensome to me.


So... .there comes a very obvious pause... .I'm trying to think of something to say... .and she exclaims (but not in a mean way... .the tone was different) 

"I don't know why I talk to you.  You just think that I don't know what I'm talking about... .and don't care... ."

She hushed... .I let that sit for a bit... .

Slowly turned and looked at her and said. 

"I was trying to be a good listener.  If you want to know what I care or don't care about... .please ask... .I will be happy to tell you... ."

Then... .I followed up with a question about what they said when she got to school... .(she found out she was canx when she got to office... .)

Anyway... .what I believe I should have said is (in order to validate)

"It's tough to believe that people don't like you... ."  (Is this a good validation effort)

"it's tough when people don't like you... ."  (this seems to be validating the invalid)

Should I have asked how this made her feel... .angry... .etc etc  and then validated the anger?

I've looked at some workshops... .and will try to look at a couple of them... .and look at them again... .each day.

This will take a while... .but I've got to get to the point where this is second nature to me.  That I validate... .almost without thinking.


Thoughts? 

FF

[Notwendy]

I recommend "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" really.

It explains that men are fixers. They hear that their partner is upset- and they try to fix it quickly, but that doesn't work well for the partner. She wants to be heard. Maybe there is something to do about it, but she needs to be heard first, not fixed.

I recently experienced this. It isn't a necessarily a BPD issue- although these things can come into the picture.

I was emotional over something and speaking to my H. It had nothing to do with him. I could hear the agitation in his voice- my being upset was affecting him. There was literally nothing he could do about the situation. It had nothing to do with him at all. Yet his agitation was rising, and he kept saying " Now stop worrying, don't be upset, this is nothing to be upset about".

Prior to all the T and co-dependency help, I would have likely reacted to his agitation. He sounded angry to me, and agitation is something I have difficulty with.  I might have also said, in the past "I don't know why I bother to talk to you." Or, sensing his agitation, I might have gotten scared and cried. This could have gone into a larger argument making me feel I can not talk to him.

So I had to think this time - if I expect him to tolerate my being upset, I have to tolerate his feeling agitated. I was able to validate him. " I know this upsets you to see me upset. I am sorry that this upsets you. I know that you can not make my upset go away, and that you wish you could, but I'm not asking you to do this. I just need to feel you are listening to me- thank you for listening."

He got it.

Your wife says people at work hate her. You know it isn't true, and she may know it isn't true, but at the moment, she feels rejected at the last minute cancellation. That hurt, even if it had nothing to do with her. And also, this has nothing to do with you. You can't fix it. It's her job. If people hate her or like her, you can't fix it either. You may not even need to validate her by saying something specific or in the right way. She just needs to feel that  you heard her.

" People hate me".

"Aw honey, it has to hurt to feel that way"

Did you ask her specifically to tell you who she think hates her? Sometimes my H will "information gather" as if he needs evidence of my feelings. You don't need her to give you evidence. The feeling is what it is.

"Ms so and so hates me"

You could stand in her shoes " You know, I feel that way too sometimes when I don't think people are getting along with me at work as much as I want. I wish everyone liked me too"

And the icing on the cake? " Well honey I love you, you're the best as far as I am concerned"

[MaroonLiquid]

Anyway... .what I believe I should have said is (in order to validate)

"It's tough to believe that people don't like you... ."  (Is this a good validation effort)

How about... ."it's a tough situation to be in when we feel that people don't like us."

"it's tough when people don't like you... ."  (this seems to be validating the invalid)

This is invalidating the invalid because we can't know what other people are feeling.


FF[/quote]

[Notwendy]

I agree with ML, but take it further. Connect with the feeling.

"It's tough to believe that people don't like you"  This is a view from the bridge. She's in the water ( of emotions). It's like saying " yeah it's tough to be in all that cold water"

" It hurts to feel this way"

That's connecting to her in the water, without getting in it yourself. Yet she knows that you are connecting with how it must feel.  " yes, it's cold"

You are not validating the invalid or agreeing with her. You are joining her by connecting to the feeling.

Very subtle difference but can you see where one response is more connected than the other? Without being co-dependent and feeling or trying to change her feelings?

[married21years]

validate the feeling, if someone acts towards us anyone would feel they hate them it is a natural reaction. but this is not a fact. so validate the feeling and then when she calms down ask how you can help her check her assumption. offer to help dont help without the request.

[formflier]

 

"It hurts to feel that way... ."

I like this... .this could be a way to get her to identify the hurt a bit more.

Is she more angry about the canx... .or does she "fear" the canx is because people don't like here.


Notwendy,

She volunteered that Ms so and so hated her... .I didn't ask.  My "mmmh" and "mmmhuhh" sounds were an attempt at active listening... .to let her know I was engaged... .but listening.

Keep comments coming... .am I on track with the "it hurts to feel that way"?

FF

[formflier]

 

She identified a woman by name that "stole" her IPAD.  She saw the ipad on her desk... .same color... .same protective case that was missing a part.  She mentioned to the lady that she had one just like it.

Went on for 30 minutes... .literally... .about how bad this woman was that stole her ipad... .she would get hers... ."I'm gonna this and I'm gonna that... .because she stole... ."

A little while later wife is in the living room on her ipad.  I said... ."Oh good... .you found it".  Wife:  "Yep". 

Me:  "Where was it ... ."

Wife:  "Under s14 pillow... ."

Me:  "Oh... ."  and I left the room.

I'm thinking I did better in this interaction.  Didn't invalidate or point out she was wrong. 

I'm wondering if I could have used SET to try to nip the 30 minutes of blathering about stealing... .and just look for it.

FF

[Notwendy]

"I'm thinking I did better in this interaction.  :)idn't invalidate or point out she was wrong.  

I'm wondering if I could have used SET to try to nip the 30 minutes of blathering about stealing... .and just look for it."


Pointing out that she was wrong would feel very shaming to her.

Stopping the 30 minutes of her "blathering" would feel invalidating to her. Interrupting her to go look for it would feel as if you were abandoning her.

I can only speak from my point of view, but the Venus and Mars books said it too. 30 minutes of blathering might seem ridiculous to you, but not to me. I think my H sees it as blathering too. I have vastly cut back on my emotional talk to him. However, it feels demeaning when he dismisses, or tries to fix my emotions.

Also, feelings don't last forever, they pass. If you can stand in her feelings and hold on to yourself- and not try to control them , they will pass. This one did.

Accept that it went the way it was supposed to. She lost her i pad. She considered that this person stole it. She was upset. Yet she also solved this issue on her own. WITHOUT YOUR HELP.  This is important FF. It isn't your job to fix this dilemma in any way. It had nothing to do with you.

Now, had she asked you to help her look for it, then that would be a request for help. But going off to look for it while she was talking to you- in order to shorten her speaking- would not feel helpful to her. It would feel as if you were trying to spare yourself from the blathering.

What she needed was for you to listen to her and accept her the way she is.

[vortex of confusion]

I was thinking that maybe asking a question like, "What makes you think Ms So and So hates you?"

I think she kind of touched on that when she said that somebody looks like a sourpuss all the time. That can easily be validated with something like, "Oh man, dealing with a sourpuss is difficult. It is easy to think that a sourpuss hates you. Sometimes, I think they hate everyone." I don't know if that is validating the invalid or not. I think it seems valid since there are negative people out there that seem to hate everyone.

Also, to give a bit of insight into the dynamics that sometimes come into play with teachers. When I was doing my student teaching, I often felt like other teachers didn't like me. I was great with the kids but sucked at dealing with other teachers. I didn't quite fit in because I didn't get involved with the teacher politics. Not sure how else to describe it. As a sub, your wife isn't going to fit in and be treated like part of their little groups. It isn't some kind of grand conspiracy. It is more like typical office politics. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't quite figure out how to handle the office politics of being a teacher. In my current profession, I don't have those problems. Over the years, I have had a lot of friends that have reported things that are very similar to what your wife is saying. I seriously doubt that they were all BPD or mentally ill.   And, as a sub, getting jobs is pretty reliant on whether or not the teachers like you. If the teachers like you, they can specifically request you. And, it can work in favor of getting a long term sub assignment. I am not sure if that is how things work there. I know that is how it works around here.

With regards to her comment about not knowing why she talks to you, I can relate to that sentiment. My husband tends to do one of two things. He will interrupt and take over the conversation OR he will sit there and listen without saying anything. When he listens without saying anything, I feel like he isn't listening. He has gotten a lot better at responding when I ask him if he heard a word that I said. I think this is more a guy/girl thing than a BPD thing. I feel best when he responds with something like, "I heard you but I am not sure how to respond because I don't have any experience with that kind of thing."

Maybe you could validate with something like, "I hear the pain and frustration in your voice. I would be frustrated too if I felt like that."

Instead of sitting quietly, maybe you could ask a question or two instead of just saying "Hmmm... .". Maybe try to get more information like "How often do you have to see Ms. Sourpuss?" "Is there a way that you can avoid Ms. Sourpuss?"

[Sunfl0wer]

"It hurts to feel that way... ."

I like this... .this could be a way to get her to identify the hurt a bit more.

Is she more angry about the canx... .or does she "fear" the canx is because people don't like here.


Notwendy,

She volunteered that Ms so and so hated her... .I didn't ask.  My "mmmh" and "mmmhuhh" sounds were an attempt at active listening... .to let her know I was engaged... .but listening.

Keep comments coming... .am I on track with the "it hurts to feel that way"?

FF

I think many would find: "it hurts to feel that way." Invalidating.  It could be heard as... .If you didn't feel that way, you wouldn't be feeling hurt.

Since it sounds like you actually cannot relate to her emotional experience... .therefore harder for you to validate emotions... . Maybe you can find a different approach at validating?

Try drawing out facts, then validate ones you actually understand?

For example:

Her: I can't stand those girls at work, they are mean, they suck!

FF: what did they do?

Her: it's everything they do, their attitude like they are better.

FF:can you give an example?  Maybe something today?

Her: they were making plans for a party, as though I wouldn't overhear.

FF: You think they should have included you in the planning?  Or taken the conversation to a more private area?

Her: of course they should have spoke elsewhere! That is so rude!

FF: well, it makes sense that overhearing this would bother you.

Humm... .kinda suck example on my part... .

But my point is that while you cannot mind read... .

It is validating to just have another person request more info... .to understand.  It feels like they care.  Maybe in requesting more info... .you can appear to be caring (which you do) but also be hunting for a piece you CAN agree with?

Like: sounds like moving the conversation would have been the most respectful thing to do.

(2 posts during my posting... .sorry if not so new)

[Notwendy]

Also lying in bed talking about emotional stuff is not a good idea. For one, we are both tired. Being tired makes it hard for me to control my emotions. Being tired makes it harder for my H to process, understand, and control his emotions.

Also, the hmmmm responses late at night would make me feel as if he was not listening, but drifting off to sleep! That's not his fault. Expecting him to listen when he is lying in bed, exhausted, is not fair.

If I heard "hmmmm" "mmmmm" the next thing I think would be " snnnoorrrrr!" Also nothing puts my H to sleep faster than me going on and on about something emotional  

One thing our marriage T has talked to us about is not to do this- talk about emotional stuff at night. At first I would be upset if my H said he didn't want to talk, but I know better now as pushing that led to those night arguments. Now, we can both say we are too tired to talk.

One option might have been to say honey, I love you and I want to listen to you. Can we talk more in the morning?

[formflier]

One option might have been to say honey, I love you and I want to listen to you. Can we talk more in the morning?

She normally flips out and continues talking when I say anything like this.

All... .ALL of our counselors over the years have implored... .begged... .demanded... .etc etc... .that she hush at nigh... .there are very limited examples of conversations that go well... .and miles long list of conversations that don't go well.

She has me trapped... .due to the machinery I use to sleep.  Now... .when I quit talking... .or say these things... .it takes 5-10 minutes to blow over... .

She doesn't accept accountability... .it's not her fault she says things at night... .

Sigh... .I suppose this wills slowly get better.

FF

[formflier]

 

Plus... .one of the reasons I want to validate better... .is that the other responses to his are like pulling a one armed bandit.

Sometimes she wants silence... .sometimes she wants me to talk... .sometimes mmmmhmmm... .asking what she wants brings out the flamethrower... .I should have known.  My guess is... .I get is right 2 times out of 10... .just out of pure luck.

I don't get upset anymore... .I will calmly state something I have to say... .and hush... .or leave.

But... .suggestions about "just asking"... .or consistently doing it a certain way... .do not work in my r/s... .at least at this point.

My hope is that if I can consistently validate... .that might change this dynamic.

FF

[Notwendy]

My hope is that if I can consistently validate... .that might change this dynamic.

Not if you are working at changing her by validating her or finding the right thing to say or do to change her.

For me, - and this has been confirmed in MC, what works is to be able to hold on to ourselves during our own emotional reaction to them when they are emotional. This is a challenge for both of us, coming from enmeshed FOO's and I would venture to say that all of us are in an enmeshed relationship if we are her. Our partner's emotions really get to us, and ours to them.

This is different from empathy.

Ideally, it would be good if my H was not agitated when I was emotional - but he was. He was in a hurry to do something, he was getting angry.

Ideally, it would be good if I did not let this get to me, and make any meaning of it. Then I would get upset and he would get more upset and we'd get on that merry go round of misery.

Anger, agitation, is a huge challenge for me as I was very tuned into my parents, particularly my father, and if there was agitation, mom was going to blow up... .However, my emotional reaction to my H if he is already agitated would result in him acting out in anger too.

I couldn't change this,control this, do anything about it if I was acting on him. In fact, sometimes it made it worse. There is no way to change their emotions. It just can not be done.

However, I can act on me, and I didn't react to his agitation with my emotions. This works with my mother too. She is still as BPD as ever, but she doesn't need me to-

Do something about her feelings

Make her feel as if she is "wrong" for feeling or being or doing something that I think I can do better.

Talking to her as if I am a doing some kind of theraputic intervention.

Feeling any sense of superiority or judging her

React with my own emotionality to her.

You are in bed, your wife wants to talk. Asking to postpone this is not effective for you at the moment. So just let this be. Listen to her. Say kind things to her, hold her. You may be feeling uncomfortable, but hold on to your emotions.

She solved her own "crisis" without you looking for the ipod. Can you acknowledge that? To you and to her. This didn't escalate, she found her i pod. Why do you feel you need to make this different? She also managed her own feelings about work and losing the ipod, and she expressed them to you but didn't escalate or act crazy for a long time.

This is her, FF. She can deal with things like this on her own. She's a great teacher, that says a lot! She raises 8 kids which is also a lot.

She may be more competent than you give her credit for.

[married21years]

validation seems to be working for me

[vortex of confusion]

But... .suggestions about "just asking"... .or consistently doing it a certain way... .do not work in my r/s... .at least at this point.

I have an inkling of a thought about this.

I am trying to figure out how to phrase it. I am thinking about a conversation that I had with my kids about why they aren't bothered when I am inconsistent but they are when dad is inconsistent. It boils down to being predictable. Even if I act differently in every situation, there is still an underlying consistency in how I approach things. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. It is about the underlying attitude.

The example that comes to mind is playing a musical instrument. There are people that play an instrument and are playing things note for note yet it still sounds way off. Then, there are other people that can play an instrument and miss a bunch of notes yet still have it sound wonderful. I think that is something to think about with validation. You can be doing textbook validation and have it come off horribly or, you can kind of wing it and have it be clunky but come out wonderfully.

Are you trying to validate because you love her and think she is a wonderful person and want to spend the rest of your life with her? Or, are you trying to validate to get her to change? Are you trying to validate her to make her feel better so you can get what you want? If your underlying attitude is that you are trying to validate and get things right so you can get what you want, then that might be coming through in your attempts at validating. It is something to think about.

[formflier]

You are in bed, your wife wants to talk. Asking to postpone this is not effective for you at the moment. So just let this be. Listen to her. Say kind things to her, hold her. You may be feeling uncomfortable, but hold on to your emotions.

I should have been more clear... .talking is not the issue.  Talking about the evil thoughts I have... .my "misbehaviors"... .whatever else she has conjured up... .is what is not working.

A simple talk about a tough day... .is ok

I see your point notwendy... .not so much changing her is my goal... .but changing the dance... .because I am dancing differently.  She will do... .what she will do.

FF

[formflier]

Are you trying to validate because you love her and think she is a wonderful person and want to spend the rest of your life with her? Or, are you trying to validate to get her to change? Are you trying to validate her to make her feel better so you can get what you want? If your underlying attitude is that you are trying to validate and get things right so you can get what you want, then that might be coming through in your attempts at validating. It is something to think about.

I am trying to validate her to change the dynamic... .and hopefully have my family be more validating.  I came from a complimenting family... .but not a validating one... .they did some... .but focus was on accomplishment.

Her foo is very invalidating... .multigenerational... .they excel at pointing out fault in thinking and feeling in everyone... .except the person in the mirror.

It comes down from her mom's mom.  My wifes grandmother.  Now that I know what to look for... .or think I do.  I can see it getting better in each generation.

So... .my goal for change... .is to accelerate the change in the current generation that is growing up.

FF

[KateCat]

my goal for change... .is to accelerate the change in the current generation that is growing up.

formflier, have you ever thought of suspending your job search and settling in to what might become the position of primary parent?

I recall another forum member describing his wife's recent attempt to teach--and her inability to do so--but your situation might prove very different. (Even allowing for the school lady with the irritable facial expression,  .)

Do you have a sense yet of how your kids are experiencing the changes in the family? Would more of the same feel good, or are kids under stress from changing roles?

[vortex of confusion]

I am trying to validate her to change the dynamic... .and hopefully have my family be more validating.  I came from a complimenting family... .but not a validating one... .they did some... .but focus was on accomplishment.

Her foo is very invalidating... .multigenerational... .they excel at pointing out fault in thinking and feeling in everyone... .except the person in the mirror.

It comes down from her mom's mom.  My wifes grandmother.  Now that I know what to look for... .or think I do.  I can see it getting better in each generation.

So... .my goal for change... .is to accelerate the change in the current generation that is growing up.

Have you broached it with your wife like this?

I have had a lot more success with my husband when I pose things as, "We both want better for our kids than we had. The kids see how we interact. Let's find a way to get on the same page and be on the same team." My goals are very similar to yours as far as changing things to set a better example for the kids and stop some of the cycles that have happened in my family and my husband's family. Is your wife willing to discuss things at that level?

[formflier]

  Is your wife willing to discuss things at that level?

Yes... .one of our new years resolutions is to be more "positive" in our communications and validating.  My wife had recently started talking about being "invalidated" by things that I said... .so it was on our mind.  I still don't know where that came from.

More positive means instead of telling a kid don't do this... .and don't do that... .tell him what to do.

Pickup the toys and store them over here (positive)

Don't make a mess with your toys... .(negative)

I don't mention my thoughts on her mom or grandma.  As she paints them black and white... .I don't want to get caught on wrong side of her painting.

FF

[formflier]

formflier, have you ever thought of suspending your job search and settling in to what might become the position of primary parent?


Do you have a sense yet of how your kids are experiencing the changes in the family? Would more of the same feel good, or are kids under stress from changing roles?

Yes... .we are letting "fate" decide it.  So... .if we get a job that we would move for... .then... .we move and life goes on.

If we don't get a job... .we stay here and make best of it.

Youngest two are doing really well with changes... .our r/s has improved.

more later... .

FF

[formflier]

 

My wife was adamantly opposed to her being a full time teacher... .at first.

Now she has quite a bit of experience under her belt... .and has been observed by principals (and gotten good reports)... .and has been sought out by some teachers to be their replacement... .

She is more open to it.

I'm fine either way... .

FF

[Lunira]

Maybe something like this?

You: "I think that Ms. <the Sourpuss you mentioned> probably doesn't like anybody, every time I see her she's scowling."

She'll likely respond by ranting about Ms. Sourpuss for a bit.  Towards the end, she'll remember that not all the people there are like Ms. Sourpuss, and therefore, everyone doesn't dislike her. 

[formflier]

You: "I think that Ms. <the Sourpuss you mentioned> probably doesn't like anybody, every time I see her she's scowling."

I've been considering doing something like this... .it feels a bit odd for me... .slightly against my values and raising.  Seems like I'm speaking ill of someone... .saying things that I don't know. 

However... .it doesn't seem like a flagrant violation of values... .so... .I believe I'll be ok to at least try it and see.

I'll need to be careful... .ready for when she asks if I am trying to talk her out of her position... .or feeling.

FF