Is it me

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I’ve switched over to this board from the leaving board because my exBPD/NPDbf is trying to get me back and part of me (my heart) is foolishly entertaining that idea. At the same time, my rational side is telling me to stay well away. It’s a terrible place to be in and I feel confused and heartbroken.

We broke up three weeks ago. We spoke for the first time yesterday after three weeks of game playing via email and text where, as usual, he tossed my emotions all over the place and I let him. This morning I was reflecting back on our conversation where he pointed out that it is always me who leaves. I suddenly had a terrifying thought. Is this me! Have I got BPD or traits of it because he's right. I am the one that always ends it.

I’ll try to explain and perhaps someone can help me. The most difficult aspect to deal with for me has been the come here/go away where he draws me in with love, affection and promises and then, sometimes quite abruptly, switches moods, acts as if I don’t matter, becomes unavailable, goes back on dating sites, or worse, starts ranting, raging, and insulting me leaving me with terrible anxiety and never knowing if I’m coming or going.  If it’s a particularly bad rage attack I just can’t take it. Sometimes I’ve try to fight back only to end up on a heap on the floor so I usually leave, vowing never to go back and end the relationship.

This is usually followed by nasty emails and texts from him making me feel even worse, but then he starts to mellow, the emails/texts/calls become nicer and kinder and eventually he persuades me to talk to him again. I have never been the one to instigate getting back together, it‘s always him and he pointed this out yesterday and he’s right. I'm the one that always calls it off. I have read a lot about BPD but not enough yet, but I’m terrified that it’s me. I’ve had relationships in the past that weren’t like this. I also don’t switch moods, I’m not abusive and would never intentionally hurt anyone, call them names, rage and rant at them, make promises I don't keep, etc, etc, but I’m now so confused. Is this me?

[Larmoyant]

I’ve switched over to this board from the leaving board because my exBPD/NPDbf is trying to get me back and part of me (my heart) is foolishly entertaining that idea. At the same time, my rational side is telling me to stay well away. It’s a terrible place to be in and I feel confused and heartbroken.

We broke up three weeks ago. We spoke for the first time yesterday after three weeks of game playing via email and text where, as usual, he tossed my emotions all over the place and I let him. This morning I was reflecting back on our conversation where he pointed out that it is always me who leaves. I suddenly had a terrifying thought. Is this me! Have I got BPD or traits of it because he's right. I am the one that always ends it.

I’ll try to explain and perhaps someone can help me. The most difficult aspect to deal with for me has been the come here/go away where he draws me in with love, affection and promises and then, sometimes quite abruptly, switches moods, acts as if I don’t matter, becomes unavailable, goes back on dating sites, or worse, starts ranting, raging, and insulting me leaving me with terrible anxiety and never knowing if I’m coming or going.  If it’s a particularly bad rage attack I just can’t take it. Sometimes I’ve try to fight back only to end up on a heap on the floor so I usually leave, vowing never to go back and end the relationship.

This is usually followed by nasty emails and texts from him making me feel even worse, but then he starts to mellow, the emails/texts/calls become nicer and kinder and eventually he persuades me to talk to him again. I have never been the one to instigate getting back together, it‘s always him and he pointed this out yesterday and he’s right. I'm the one that always calls it off. I have read a lot about BPD but not enough yet, but I’m terrified that it’s me. I’ve had relationships in the past that weren’t like this. I also don’t switch moods, I’m not abusive and would never intentionally hurt anyone, call them names, rage and rant at them, make promises I don't keep, etc, etc, but I’m now so confused. Is this me?

[Notwendy]

I think I can reassure you that if you are asking this question, this is not typical of pwBPD- who tend to blame others and not look inward. I also understand your fears as I thought the same thing with the conflict in my relationship and my husband blaming me for all of it- some things were his projections, but not knowing any better, I took them to heart.

Fueling my fears were also that my mother had BPD, and I found myself getting all emotional and crying and having these crazy making circular discussions. Assuming it was me, I went to counseling - while my H had no interest in counseling for him.

Having been in counseling over the years to deal with my own FOO issues- nobody has ever considered that I had BPD. I was so afraid of being like my mother that I looked up to my other role model - my father. I thought he was the good guy, the victim of my mother. That's a natural consideration from a kid's point of view. What I had to learn as an adult was his role in the dysfunction. What part did he play in this for it to go on and on, and if I didn't have BPD, then why was this cycle of conflict playing itself out in my marriage?

Is it you? My best guess is that you don't have BPD, but something is keeping you tied to this relationship, to the push pull cycle, as you are also participating in it. Is it me? This part is you. Ultimately the only thing we can change is our part in any relationship. T helped me see mine, so looking into what part is you may help you clarify this and also take steps to make positive changes.

[Samuel S.]

All you want is to have a loving relationship. You are not abusive. You are loving. He is negative and then wanders back to being "nice" again. How can you expect to feel loved, to feel safe in such a relationship? Indeed, your doubts and thus your need to exclude yourself from him are totally justified. I think he is just playing you like if you were a bouncing ball. He will throw you away with his expectation when he is "nice" again, that you will accept him back again. That is pure maliciousness and pure abuse, and you deserve to be treated with love, care, and compassion. He obviously does not know how to do that.

[Larmoyant]

Thank you so much Notwendy and Samuel S. Your comments made me realise that he always makes me doubt myself, always blames me for things going wrong, and I do tend to take everything he says to heart. You mention circular conversations and he always twists the conversation around making me doubt my own perceptions. Reflecting back on the lastest conversation he’s still doing it, twisting the truth, denying what he said and did, changing what I did, but it’s hard to see it at the time, when you are actually having the conversation. His version of events was nothing like mine and I have a very good memory. Sometimes this makes me feel as if I’m going crazy. Samuel, he does play me like a bouncy ball, that describes it perfectly. Sometimes I can see it and other times I’m just left in a confused, sobbing mess. I don’t feel loved and safe in this relationship and when he’s raging I run away to safety. I’ve decided that’s ok, that’s normal, who wouldn’t run away. He turns into the incredible hulk.  Notwendy, I do need to ask myself what role am I playing and why do I want him so much. I have my own foo issues, one is fear of abandonment (which also made me question whether I was the one with BPD) and it might be the reason why I cling on. I’m so run down with his accusations and blame that I asked my friends and family if I’m unstable and abusive and my mother started crying and said I was one of the most loving, grounded people and never, ever accept what he says. She wants me to end it with him. Everyone I know wants me to end it with him! He’s calling again tonight and I’m trying to prepare myself. This is truly a battle between my rational brain and my heart, and I can’t stop it yet. When he called last time I was scared to rock the boat, scared to say what was really on my mind for fear he would go off the rails or hang up on me. I’ve got to stop that today.

[Samuel S.]

Yes, it is very scarey to be around a BPD person. You don't want to rock the boat. You want everything to be calm. I am in such a situation as well with my BPDw. I do everything to please her, but it is never enough. I rarely stand up for myself when she becomes abusive. I am afraid of her. So, I usually don't react to her, but I take it personally. I take it internally. Just today, she had a busy day with work and with her D18. There are also some other issues outside of our immediate family. She said she doesn't want to talk about it, because it triggers her. So, my fear button is pushed big time.

I have come to the conclusion that she is not going to change after 14 years now. I am trying my best to earn and frankly to win extra money in order to move on out, because I would not be able to afford to live financially just on my current salary and with my current health benefits.

In your situation, Larmoyant, you and he are not living in the same house. If there is a way to make this a permanent situation and if you can completely block your exchanges with him, that is the ideal. It is sad, because you love him and because he loves you. Nevertheless, when there is no respect, when there is abuse, a relationship can exist. I feel for you and frankly for myself, because we both deserve better!

[Notwendy]

The cycle of abuse, the push pull dance is between two people doing the steps. What you are dealing with is his power to pull you back in. It can feel like an addiction because a high intensity relationship does release brain chemicals in a similar way drugs do. When the rage/abuse is over, and there is calm or separation, the person with anger/BPD feels a withdrawal, also fear of abandonment and begins to pull the person closer, and it seems the other person feels a strong pull back in.

But it takes two to dance. Why do some people stay and why do some leave? For me, it was understanding that this was the dance of my parents, and also me with my mother- and so without being aware of this, I did this with partners.

Even people who don't have FOO issues can be drawn into this pattern over time. Yet to break the cycle in our own relationships, we are the ones who usually have to do it. It is about how people manage emotional pain. This is a motivation to change, but someone who projects and rages does this to get rid of the pain. It works for them. Once the rage is over, they feel relief, but the person raged at does not.

This could be an isolated relationship or a pattern. However, for me, I would want to get therapy regardless to heal from this kind of relationship and also so that I would not bring similar issues into any possible future ones.

Before I became aware of this pattern in myself or my family, I noticed it in a friend I had met. She was a lovely person, and had escaped injuries from her abusive ex husband who almost murdered her. Many really nice men wanted to date her, but she was not attracted to them. I also noticed she drank a lot, and ended up in a relationship with someone who was probably emotionally abusive. It was then that I considered that she was attracted to this type of man, even if I didn't understand why at the time. Nice men were out there, but unless she dealt with her own issues- the alcohol and the emotional wounds, she was not available to these relationships.

The issues in my marriage were much milder, but my part in it was making them worse. We have kids and I was highly motivated to work at change. I think each of us has to decide according to our own circumstances, but Samuel is right-we do not have to accept being mistreated.

[Surg_Bear]

Not sure the labels help much- except that you said that you had read some, but not a lot about BPD.

GASLIGHTING

CRAZY MAKING

Somehow, pwBPD have and use these tools to play the cat-mouse push/pull dance they do.

They can push you away and pull you in, all the while making things seem like YOU are the one who is crazy.  They subtly project their inner life onto you, something rings true / resonates deeply with something you can barely reach from your own stockpile of emotional memories, and then, you're buying into it, and feeling guilty for being the crazy one, the bad one, the misbehaving one, whatever.

The manipulation and abuse can be so subtle, and done with such pin point accuracy, that they can actually get you to accept the blame.  It can also be flagrantly obvious and flagrantly hateful-- this is the same twisted psychological BS that manifests in false allegations of crimes, such as domestic violence, child abuse, stealing, destroying property, etc. 

I agree with Stephen here- you are separated in your own homes and it might be better for you to stay away and go No Contact.  You might get lucky and find someone different, after you grieve your loss, who doesn't abuse you in an emotional way.  Wouldn't it be awesome if you could find someone whose behavior doesn't amount to psychological abuse?  You still have the chance to make a clean break.

It is so much harder to do when children are involved, decades of this have passed, and money matters complicate things so much.  You can love yourself enough to get out before it ever has to negatively effect your children, or cost you half a million dollars.

If you decide to stay with him, love yourself enough to learn more about how to deal with this kind of partner in your life- how to stop the abuse before it reaches your innermost armor and really, really hurts you.  Go to the Tools section of this website, and start posting with like minded HEROES on the staying board.

Good luck.

Love,

Surg_Bear

edit-  I should add that I saw my Psychiatrist yesterday and a good part of my hour with him was me discussing how I am doubting my perceptions and sanity so much lately, that I honestly wonder if I am the one with Borderline Personality Disorder.  I see how much of my wife's behavior and pathological ways of thinking are so outside of her awareness that why couldn't the same thing be happening within me?  She could go decades abusing me, and thinking everything was fine.  How could anyone do this and not be aware of it?  If it could be happening inside her head, why couldn't it also be happening in my own?  Maybe I am the Blame-shifter, Crazy-making, Gaslighter?  His response was almost exactly NotWendy's-  the fact that I am asking the questions, and considering the possibility, that, by definition, excludes BPD.  They are INCAPABLE of arriving to the conclusion "It is / was my fault" completely on their own. 

YOU ARE NOT THE CRAZY ONE IN YOUR RELATIONSHIP.

[Samuel S.]

Yes, it is very scarey to be around a BPD person. You don't want to rock the boat. You want everything to be calm. I am in such a situation as well with my BPDw. I do everything to please her, but it is never enough. I rarely stand up for myself when she becomes abusive. I am afraid of her. So, I usually don't react to her, but I take it personally. I take it internally. Just today, she had a busy day with work and with her D18. There are also some other issues outside of our immediate family. She said she doesn't want to talk about it, because it triggers her. So, my fear button is pushed big time.

I have come to the conclusion that she is not going to change after 14 years now. I am trying my best to earn and frankly to win extra money in order to move on out, because I would not be able to afford to live financially just on my current salary and with my current health benefits.

In your situation, Larmoyant, you and he are not living in the same house. If there is a way to make this a permanent situation and if you can completely block your exchanges with him, that is the ideal. It is sad, because you love him and because he loves you. Nevertheless, when there is no respect, when there is abuse, a relationship CANNOT exist. I feel for you and frankly for myself, because we both deserve better!

[Samuel S.]

There is something else that seems to be commonplace about a BPD. When they push and pull whenever they please, it is a question of releasing their pain as well as control, because they cannot release their pain, and they can only manage their lives and ours, if we let them. There is a certain air of arrogance about them. My BPDw daily will complain about her job and about her studies and about different obligations about our family. Then, she says it is her choice; yet, she still complains. Last night, she heard about her sister and her family who are truly having a terrible time. My BPDw told her not to complain, because she believes that it will only result in more hardship, instead. So, my BPDw clearly does not practice what she preaches. To even bring this up to her will either make her rage or be meek. Usually, she will just rage.

Our BPDs play mind games. We nonBPDs are pushed and pulled into this rat trap unless we can get enough courage to get out of the rat trap which is easier said than done.

[Corpal74]

It is not you. You are a victim to the traits. You are not coming and going, you are getting sucked in and pushed away. There are many promises made, and if your partner is anything like my mom it is very believable. The switch happens because of their internal emotions. They feel as the victom however they make themselves a victim to their self destructive pattern. They need love and yet the very ones who love them disappoint them because they have unrealistic views of how a person should be. All of a sudden they feel attacked. It can be something as little as buying the coffee. This is what happened when my aunty bought me a coffee. My mom is angry months later because my mom wanted to buy it. It is about more than coffee. My mom feels betrayed. It isn't logical but it is how she feels. Hope that helps.

[Surg_Bear]

Not sure the labels help much- except that you said that you had read some, but not a lot about BPD.

I agree with Stephen here-


Love,

Surg_Bear

I meant SamuelS.  I agree with SamuelS here-

Not Stephen.

I'm watching Steven Universe with my 6 year old right now.  Hilarious Anime cartoon we found on Hulu Plus.

Sorry.

[Larmoyant]

Thank you all so much for the reassurance. It's only been 18 months, but 18 months of pure chaos that's left me with no career and my physical and, even worse, my emotional health has suffered, yet I feel hopelessly drawn to him. In just 18 months! This makes me question my sanity because why, despite all the rants, rages, push/pull, on again/off again, do I stay. This time around we have been apart for three weeks or so and he’s currently in another country. This has given me much needed space to think, but I’m still attached. He recently pulled me back into talking to him again, saying he misses me, loves me, etc, etc, but he has now switched again! He phoned last night, but all he wanted to do was argue about various past events where I’m at fault for everything and some of which was blatant rewriting of history. Around and around we go. No wonder I’m feeling crazy, it is crazy, but I’m reaching my ’enough’ moment. At one point he threatened to put the phone down, a favourite move of his, and the unresolved conflict usually leaves me in a state of high anxiety and my heart starts racing which scares me. This time I told him if he hung up on me he would never hear from me again. To my surprise he didn’t hang up. I think he senses I’m getting stronger.  It took a while, but I managed to steer the conversation and it ended relatively well, but I could still sense his black mood. An hour later I received a dramatic email asking me why I did this and why I did that, projecting all of his bad stuff onto me. I’m trying to learn ways to cope with it, what to say, what not to say, etc. It’s exhausting. It’s unbelievably painful because all I want to do is love him.

[Samuel S.]

He loves you. He argues with you. He has his black mood as you aptly expressed it. Then, he loves you again. Bottom line, he is being extremely cruel to you. Let's look at it in another way. If you or someone else were to act the way he is acting, he would be hurting as well. Yes, you are hurting big time, and my heart goes out to you!

The very fact that you stood up for yourself is excellent, and I applaud you for doing so! You are defending yourself against his extremely immature behavior that nobody should ever have to suffer. I can understand why you love him still, because you feel there is something still left in your relationship with him. Nevertheless, I think he is very aware of this and is playing this very hurtful game with you.

Your relationship with him should be based on mutual respect first and foremost and then love. He obviously does not respect you. Otherwise, he would be standing beside you, respecting you, loving you. He may love you in some perverse way, but he is being absolutely unfair to you while you are bending over backwards due to your love for him.

I am in a very similar situation with my BPDw. She has been very manipulative, very verbally abusive, and now does these same things while being neglectful of our relationship. She shields herself with her work, with her studies, with her complaints so that she won't be close. In fact, I think your situation is similar to mine with not only the push pull concept they play with us, but also being afraid of being close.

My BPDw lost her D7 16 years ago to a mosquito bite along with being physically and emotionally abused by her mother. Then, she met me who listened and validated her and loved her. This was appealing to her until she could not accept the fact for a long while that my side of the family was deserving of love as well. She ultimately admitted she was jealous of them and eventually accepted that there are different kinds of love. Then, slowly but surely, she has left emotionally from me and has the desire to control everything.

I just wish your BPD, mine, and everyone else's would realize that we nonBPDs are deserving of love as well and that we are a team. Like an old song lyric said, "sometimes, when we touch, the honesty is too much." I just wish they would wise up before we nonBPDs get fed up and leave, if we have enough courage to do so and can financially afford it. Frankly, I don't have the courage, and I can't financially afford it right now. That is why I shield myself with doing constructive things like teaching, tutoring, writing books, going to movies, visiting with friends, and seeing relatives - mine and hers.

What are you doing to take care of you? I sure hope you are doing some constructive things that validate you. It can be a temporary fix or a way to shield you from the cruelty he has been inflicting upon you.

[Larmoyant]

Hi Samuel, you sound like a lovely, kind, caring person and I am so sorry you are enduring this as it's truly heartbreaking especially when all you want to do is love them. One of the things I've been trying to find out is if he is aware of what he's doing. Sometimes I think he is aware because he can be truly sadistic in his game playing, he sometimes gets this strange look on his face where he seems like he is enjoying watching me cry, but at other times he seems like a hurt child and all I want to do is help him. When I read your question "What are you doing to take care of you" I actually cried, still am crying, because I'm not helping myself. I'm just spending all my time trying to understand and work him out.I've even just posted another comment trying to see if I can sort this out so we can have a future. I'm getting very tired of all this. I'm going to have to make a decision soon. I hope you eventually find the courage to do what's in your heart, but if you stay please take care of yourself and know that you deserve so much more.

[Thread]

You asking the question "am I BPD?" is the first answer to no. That's what my therapist also told me when my husband (before knowing about BPD) made me confused as heck and I truly believed I was the one causing his turmoil.

No. You're not. Its called projection. You will start to notice how most things will become "because you did it first" or "you act such and such way" even though your BPD is the one doing the action. Very common. Story of my life.

Im sorry youre going through this.

Also the mean, and angry texts, then turning into glorifying texts. Also a normal BPD characteristic. Hot and Cold. Rarely inbetweens.

 

[Larmoyant]

Hanging, wow I have literally just got an email from him where he uses the words "because you did it first" about going on a dating site whilst still in the relationship. I did no such thing, but he did! What on earth do these people get out of this, projection, lies, these circular conversations that go no where! I'm shaking right now. We are supposed to be sorting our problems out.

[Notwendy]

What do they get out of it? They have some really bad feelings and this is how the manage them- project them on to someone else and then abuse that person for making them feel bad. However, it isn't the partner who is making them feel bad, but when they project their feelings on to that partner, they perceive it this way.

Look up the "Victim Triangle" or ":)rama Triangle". There are three roles, and a person can play all 3 in a relationship: Victim, Rescuer, Persecutor. It does not matter how you get on the triangle as one is inevitably going to end up in Victim- being attacked in some way.

So for instance, your BF feels badly, projects it on to you. You become (to him) the Persecutor. He "Rescues" himself by his anger at you. You are then the Victim, and he is the Persecutor.

Perhaps more importantly- what do you get out of this? Why are you still emotionally hooked into this? The answer to this may give you some insight as well as help you make a decision.

[OnceConfused]

Do the Nons have some trait of BPD?

I guess , yes - some traits. We all are afraid of abandonment. The big difference is that we can REGULATE our fears and our emotions while BPD cannot.

Larmoyant, I suggest you looking seriously again at the leaving option, while you still have not invested lots of times and joint stuffs (shared home, marriage, and kids) . So many of the posters here are stuck because of their joint stuffs, which will make the suffering lasting a LIFE TIME. The pain of leaving now and the fear on the unknown future might be overwhelming but trust me, time will be the best healer and 5 years from now, you will look back and be glad that you did.

It has been 8 years since I left xBPDgf and I can tell you that my life has been a HAPPY trail. I found my now wife shortly after I left xBPDgf and the last 8 years has been pure BLISS. So don't be afraid of the unknown future. Of my story, instead of the weekly breakups and walking on eggshells (from how I ate my foods, how my children were b*tches, how tight I was even after loaning her 25K to fix her house, why I did not buy her a 25K diamond ring, how I shoud leave her my late wife 's 401K - instead of my children. She went from 1 crises to the next ), NOW I simply just enjoy my life and the love of my wife.

I often have pondered on the word "LOVE" that many of the posters here used. To me, that love is not real love, for it is only our attachment and our fear of leaving a known pain to face an unknown future. How can you say you love that man who has brought in your illness, your anxiety, your daily fear ? or is that love simply a mask of your attachment?

On the opposite side, is he really LOVE you? Or is he simply fearful of being abandonned so he pulled you back when you are ready to leave?

To me, to love someone is to make that person feel LOVED, cared for, and trust. Does your man make you feel LOVED, cared for or trusting him?

In any r.s we do have conflicts because of our beliefs, our upbringing in dealing with one or 2 issues, but that is normal. But once the conflicts arise to a daily event, then we have to ask ourselves, is this joint partnership worth it?

Happiness is not something that your friend can bring to you as a gift but simply a result of what he does every day. A wise man once said:

Happiness should not be the end goal, Happiness is the way.

Another wise man also offered:

YOu cannot give what you don't have.

What this means is perhaps BPD don't have a love of self therefore they cannot give us that love. So much fear and self doubt are inside them, and thus they send us nothing but fear and doubt. So you cannot expect to have a silver bullet or a magical bill to give to BPD to change them to a person full of self love.   Your BPD tells you every so often that he loves you, but what actions he does to show that love ?

Some foods for thoughts.

[Thread]

The sad part of it all... They truly believe you did it first and if you didn't you were planning on it.   it's sick, it's sad and it causes you to feel crazy! Ironic huh!