Being on higher level of consciousness, self-help circles, need for admiration

[Isus]

Do your BPD folk look for attention and admiration in trying to come off as one with higher level of consciousness, wisdom etc? Or use self help groups, religious groups or New Age circles to get attention and admiration?

My dad is dBPD in his late sixties. Last couple years we have again been in contact after over a decade of first NC then very LC. He is very smart, educated, well-read, sophisticated, witty and charming. He is also genuinely accomplished artist. But no amount of admiration is ever enough for him and that undermines his genuine accomplishments at times.

When he is not feeling well, his art tends to be extremely sensationalistic, screaming for attention and even vulgar. When he has better phase, his work becomes more genuine and deeper. Okay, not my problem, I own lot of his works, but mostly ones I do actually like. But when he feels he is not getting enough admiration through these rather genuine accomplishments, he has a tendency to reinvent himself and start looking for attention is some spiritual type group setting.

He has battled most of his life with poly substance misuse issues. He has been severely alcohol dependent long periods of time, his amphetamine use was totally out of hand several times and led to psychosis couple of times and so on. When he was in that bad shape and couldn't get admiration from his usual cronies, he headed to AA. Easy to learn the slogans and use his sophistication, charm and talent for public speaking to get admiration. When I was in contact with him in those times, he often told me, when drunk, about 'the pathetic losers' who crowded the rooms and how easy it was to con them (no, not drinking was not on his AA agenda.)

When he managed to control his substance use better, he forgot the AA rooms and moved to religious circles. For a bona fide atheist he certainly has been a member of many different religious groups from different religions. Usually takes him month at most after the conversion to become a 'great and inspirational speaker' and some kind of guru. And less than a year to be out from that group or religion.

Now we have been in more contact couple years and he has been doing very well, but yesterday I noticed an add about some New Age happening in the city close to me and my Dad seems to be one of the advertised persons to present, well, something. He hasn't mentioned anything about this to me, nor has he told any supernatural experiences lately. Well, he does know I'm not appreciative audience for that anyway.

My son was also coerced to attend to one of the anonymous programs for his addiction, long story, but timing was anything but right, nor is the whole concept good fit for him, and unfortunately only available group that in anyway worked to his schedules, was dominated a really shady guy who seemed very predatory and tried to dominate my kid. He managed to get a permission to stop going before anything happened, but it seems likely this guy would had tried to take financial advantage of my son, if he would had for example told him anything worth blackmailing. 

I myself also have experience of self-help groups that are dominated by people whose behaviour brings BPD or other personality disorders to mind.

Is it common behaviour for pwBPD to be interested about self help or spiritual groups and want to come of as being in higher level of conciousness or more healed, or more victimized than anyone else or simply some kind of spiritual authority?

[deux soeurs]

Hi Isus.  My sister has BPD although now she would deny it.  From what I have read about the disorder, it is quite common for folks with BPD to have addiction issues.  Remember, addictions are ways people "self medicate".  It makes a lot of sense to me and with my experiences with my sister as well as other disordered people.  My sister has been on prescription medication for various things since she was in her twenties.  While she doesn't drink and tends to think anyone whom enjoys fine wine or drinks socially is an alcoholic, (holier than thou syndrome) she in my past interactions appears abuse her prescription drugs.  Drugs are drugs, period.  I also noticed with her, exactly what you said regarding your father and exploring the "flavor of the month" so to speak with new religious beliefs, the afterlife, the hottest trends, as well as the hottest diseases.  Again, to me, it makes perfect sense as folks with BPD have no sense of self so they must keep searching for that self, the constant admiration, the affirmations etc.  It is easy in our age of electronics and internet to find legions of adoring fans whom have never met us.  It is also to create yourself differently than you really are.  I am happy for you that you are able to find a balance with your father.  At least he knows enough not to mention the "silly" stuff to you.  I know my dad has told me my sister doesn't mention her crazy stories and drama to him either.  While the folks with BPD may be mentally ill, one thing is for sure, they are smart. Issues, how long does your father exhibit his good behavior ?  Do you notice a pattern in his stable times versus his times of dysfunction?  I am glad you were able to get your son away from a bad situation.

[Isus]

Hi deux! I may have too jaded view to my dad, but I have never really felt that he so much tries to find a place to belong or any inner meaning or sobriety, when he has gone through those religions or ideologies. I have always felt he has looked more stage to show off and find admirers. And he is charming and witty so he does find them. And in some endeavours there has also been some money for him. Of some he has talked to me in ways that I'm sure he did consider them mostly clever scams. Was proud of himself for 'leading those suckers on.'

My relationship with him is not validating for him but has tended to be rather confrontational. I understand that me being more validating would be more healing to him and would make our relationship more peaceful, but I really can't bring myself to do that much. I have tried, but I feel I come out as b___y and sarcastic how ever much I try. And he finds my attempts unauthentic and patronising. And we have found some kind of balance, where I'm permanently rolling my eyes and he is explaining how what ever he has came up with last isn't that bad or silly. And when he is upset enough not being able to take my attitude, we do not communicate.

My dad's life has been ups and downs functioning and behaviour wise and substance misuse has certainly made him worse and been more apparent when he has been in his worst. Bit of the chicken and egg things there. However he has mellowed when he has gotten older. He doesn't get that upset any more that easily and it is easier for him to calm down after he does. He isn't quite as impulsive as he was. He is more self aware. And I can't say he would be misusing substances any more. He still does drink and even occasionally binge drink, I'm sure he smokes pot every now and then and so on, but it is a far cry from his alcohol dependent and amphetamine using days.

About twenty years ago he met a lady he married. He did some really shi**y emotional stuff to me around that time that I have had hard time forgiving, but I have to admit that with her he did let go most of his substance abuse. After they divorced he had some short periods of substance abuse again, but I guess he decided that enough is enough and last decade he has mostly been moderate user and that has helped a lot. We were in no contact or very low contact or low contact big parts of these last two decades till about two years ago (I had young kids and after those emotional stuff he did to me, I didn't want him to young kids' life) so I don't actually know when the changes for better did start to happen. But I do know that these last two years we have had better relationship than ever before. I don't trust to him at all, but I do trust myself to be able to deal with things he may dash to my direction.

But during last two years he hasn't stolen from me (or I haven't noticed), he has only few times asked for money and only ones tried to lie that he is going to pay it back, he hasn't totally ditched me (just disappearing for month or two without telling even if we had some plans is to be expected with him, I don't get too upset by that), he hasn't been violent, he hasn't tried to take advantage of my kids to my knowledge, not badly at least, while he does make snide and degrading comments about my husband whom he doesn't like (not that he would really know him the least) he isn't too confrontational to his face so just not letting them to same room much and never leaving them alone with each other works just fine. So, for him, he has been in his best behaviour last couple years at least with me.

How long this will last is a good question. But in meanwhile my kids will learn to know their other grandpa and I have learned to know his side of the family. He was in no contact with them almost 50 years but has been in touch few years now. So I guess that too is a sign of improvement. His family is dysfunctional to the side of true tragedy, but still, I enjoy getting to know them. Being able to find my roots also from that side of family.

About my son and his bad twelve step experience. His addiction is one of those with highest percentage of pwPD. I have seen studies where up to 30 to 50 % of people with that addiction also have some personality disorder. Usually antisocial, narcissistic or borderline, so it is clear there will be a lot of people with PD in all support groups and meetings too. And unfortunately an only available for him was apparently dominated someone with predatory behaviour. And in some ways layman support groups can be a attractive places for predators to prey. After all, one is expected to listen, question their own thinking and and more or less abide the group's ideas, be open and reveal personal info. That kind of setting is likely to interest not only those who are looking for help for themselves but also those who are looking to profit something about other people's revealed vulnerabilities. I have always felt that for my dad, it was the admiration he had to gain from his AA stunts (as said, he clearly wasn't there to get sober) but the person my son met was more likely after money or power over others.

[deux soeurs]

Isus, , but in reading your situation, could he be BPD cluster B which exhibits narcissistic traits?  The behavior you describe seems more NPD and Cluster B can exhibit mild to severe NPD traits.  I am no doctor of course but he seems to want the attention and adoration that those groups offer.  You are lucky though to be able to get to know him again, now that he is older and mellower.  It is a good lesson for kids too if they must, to realize not all families are wonderful and loving all the time.  I don't think I will ever be able to have a relationship with my BPD sister.  I went through great lengths to keep her from knowing my kids and am grateful for that but my situation is different.

[Isus]

Deux, narcissistic traits are of course a real possibility with my dad. To my understanding it is rather common for person with one PD have traits also from other PDs and borderline and narcissistic  PD are in the same cluster anyway. But I also believe that BPD is much more descriptive for my dad's inner world than NPD. While he can be very callous at times (like the examples I just told about his shenanigans in self help and spiritual circles) it is mostly relating to 'others.' You see, for him, people are either 'his people', 'enemies' or 'others' and he can be extremely generous, protective or accommodating to 'his people', really cruel and 'anything goes' to 'enemies' and 'the others' are meaningless and can be used if needed. Of course people can go from one group to another in split of a second.

He is also capable to great empathy and can be moved by many bigger and smaller things and can be very emotional and feel big also in matters not directly related to him. Callous characteristics are more prominent when he is down; stressed, anxious, struggling with life, during substance misuse and so on. I also don't know if it is due poor object permanence but even when he is feeling strong empathy etc. sustainability of it is poor. Out of sight, out of mind.

Other thing that parts him from NPD is, that he knows his bravado is just that. He may convince himself it is true for shorter periods of time, but sooner or later he does become aware that he is just showing off. He can go on and on how great he is and brag and bluster, but he does know it is just bragging and in reality a lot of time he is aware he isn't feeling good about himself.

You mentioned you have kept your BPD sister away from your kids. I did let my dad be part of my oldest life when he was very young, but at the time his unreliability wasn't likely to harm my kid. And you can be sure I never left my kid alone with him and me and my hubby were talking about boundaries already then. It was my dad who ditched me at that time and when he was ready to come back and I was ready to allow LC to myself almost decade later, I certainly kept my kids away from him. For me things changed when my kids became adults and more capable of defending themselves. It also helps that in reality they are not that interested. My dad can't much harm them, when they show so passing interest to them and are not interested to play his games. Not that I think that my dad would want to harm them, but that just tends to happen with him. But when I have to pay for my youngest that he would model couple hours for him (I wanted sketches of him) and my oldest could barely spare twenty minutes in coffee shop for him, when dad was passing by his town, I'm not really that worried about his influence to my kids now.

I also think there is difference between BPD sibling and BPD parent when it comes to this. I'm an only child though, so you can take this with as big grain of salt as you wish, but relationship with one has with sibling and (biological) parent is very different. Siblings, especially if grown in same household, are big part of our life story. They share those same memories that no one else knows about. But one generation down, when it comes to our kids, our siblings are only part of their life story, if they are actively involved in their life. Our parents may be big part of our life story and memories, if they are present in our lives. But even if they are, if they have ditched us or we are even adopted, our biological parents are big part our history, part of 'where do we come from?' And for our kids our parents still are part of their history, part of their 'where did I come from' even if they are not actively part of their life.

I think that if I had a sibling with very challenging behaviours like my dad, I would feel no need to let them interact with my kids at all. I likely would try to shelter my kids from it totally. I would tell about them to my kids. Tell that they have this aunt or uncle who has lots of issues, but I would discourage any contact even when my kids would be adults. But when this challenging person is their grandparent, I feel differently. That my dad is part of my kids' history, part of their roots. That getting to know him a little helps them to build their identity. I likely wouldn't feel like that, is it was a sibling of mine.

[Isus]

Now I have learnt more about this latest New Age-thingy of my dad's. Seems quite a mess. Involves at least two lady friends, who seem to be serious with my dad and this spiritual thing and few more passing attractions on the side. Dad also accidentally led it out to me that he doesn't believe to the spiritual side of it at all. For some reason it would make me feel little better, if he would at least be a honest believer.

He tried to tell me it is some kind of post-postmodern real life art project that will achieve... .well, something. Makes my head hurt.