need advice ASAP

[whitebackatcha]

UBPDGF has me on NC. I usually chase, but this time I didn't. Long distance relationship, she blocked me. I joined a group i knew she was in because other friends are there too. I just received a text saying "Thanks for joining the last safe group I have. I hate you." She has made no other direct contact since Friday.

Should I even respond?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[babyducks]

my quick take it that text doesn't need a reply.   

It doesn't look to me like an invitation to a serious conversation but more like an opportunity for her to dump negative feelings.   I try to avoid being involved in dumps of negative emotions.

If you replied what do you think you should say?

[whitebackatcha]

my quick take it that text doesn't need a reply.   

It doesn't look to me like an invitation to a serious conversation but more like an opportunity for her to dump negative feelings.   I try to avoid being involved in dumps of negative emotions.

If you replied what do you think you should say?

Well, I did the best I could. She told me once that ignoring messages just because I didn't like the topic was hurtful. She also reacts strongly against typical validation. I said this:

"I joined because *friend* posted a link. We can't see each other's posts, so I didn't see that as a factor. I'm sorry you feel invaded by me. I understood that you didn't want contact, so I have been honoring that."

She tells me people mention me all the time (not true) so of course I knew she'd see. I didn't get to respond yet.

She has now unblocked me, told me "Yes, completely invalidating my feelings makes me love everything about you!" Sent a bunch of love stickers, went through my old posts and liked all of them, commented in said group how that was the last group I wasn't in and wasn't it great I was there now (they think she's serious, of course), and then posted a picture in a group of the last gift I sent her, saying I was just so sweet for sending it.

I guess now I tell her I want to talk with her, and to have her tell me what she needs, but I know it won't be pleasant at best, and it will be a disaster at worst.

I'm so tired, and this is so hurtful. She is supposed to love me, not sarcastically imply she doesn't have a reason to. I know this is what they do. I was just wiped from the NC, and had hoped that when and if it ended, it would be when she was calm.

[babyducks]

I'm curious.   What part of her reaction makes you want to tell her you want to talk to her?

[whitebackatcha]

I'm curious.   What part of her reaction makes you want to tell her you want to talk to her?

The part of me that is trying to follow these rules of dealing with someone with BPD. Also the part of me that is scared she will block me again if I ignore her.

I guess I thought I had to because I have to be the bigger person and not expect her to be regulated.

[maxsterling]

I think this is a situation where you have to examine what you want.  Do you have desires of maintaining a relationship with her in any way?  Or are you okay just letting her go and moving on?

The reality is that she is going to feel that way no matter what you do or don't do.  Trying to "fix" it will only lead to frustration.  If you want to let the relationship go, I suggest just not responding and deleting the message.  If you want to try and keep some kind of relationship, I also suggest not responding, and waiting for her to calm.

[whitebackatcha]

I think this is a situation where you have to examine what you want.  Do you have desires of maintaining a relationship with her in any way?  Or are you okay just letting her go and moving on?

The reality is that she is going to feel that way no matter what you do or don't do.  Trying to "fix" it will only lead to frustration.  If you want to let the relationship go, I suggest just not responding and deleting the message.  If you want to try and keep some kind of relationship, I also suggest not responding, and waiting for her to calm.

This is why I get so confused. There is all this advice on what to say when they're being crappy, how it is the BPD, how this is the sort of thing they do and to not take it personally. We are supposed to validate their feelings even when they're expressing them in a crappy way. How does that coexist with what is being said in this thread?

I appreciate your reminder that there is no way to "fix" her, and to focus on myself. I am trying hard to do that, as it is new for me.

[maxsterling]

I think this is a situation where you have to examine what you want.  Do you have desires of maintaining a relationship with her in any way?  Or are you okay just letting her go and moving on?

The reality is that she is going to feel that way no matter what you do or don't do.  Trying to "fix" it will only lead to frustration.  If you want to let the relationship go, I suggest just not responding and deleting the message.  If you want to try and keep some kind of relationship, I also suggest not responding, and waiting for her to calm.

This is why I get so confused. There is all this advice on what to say when they're being crappy, how it is the BPD, how this is the sort of thing they do and to not take it personally. We are supposed to validate their feelings even when they're expressing them in a crappy way. How does that coexist with what is being said in this thread?

I appreciate your reminder that there is no way to "fix" her, and to focus on myself. I am trying hard to do that, as it is new for me.

Well, that's the conundrum of BPD that we all struggle with.  The line between helping and enabling.  The line between boundaries and punishment.  I know exactly what you are dealing with now.  My wife has treated me like absolute crap, I will enforce a boundary for my own protection, and then she will claim I am making things worse by not communicating with her more.  Yet if I do communicate, I am a punching bag once again.  On my end, it feels like no-win.  But if I think about it, it is only a no-win if I consider my goal as to "fix" what is "broken".  I can choose to trust me, work on me, take care of myself, and let her do what she is going to do.  That's the difficult option #3 that we rarely see.

It sounds to me like you are in a place where you aren't sure if you want the r/s to continue or not, even as friends.  That's okay, we understand because we have all been there (or still are there).  And it sounds like you are wondering if there is anything you can do right now to re-establish some kind of constructive conversation.  I'm saying that anything you say or do right with her will not get you to your long term goal, whatever that may be.  You can communicate with her, and likely just become her punching bag again.  Or you can not respond, and she will get upset, and be her punching bag. That is why I am suggesting, for the time being, just taking care of yourself, doing what you feel is right, and doing what makes you happy.  At some point in the future, she may reach out in a calmer way, and you can decide how to act in that case.  Or, you may feel stronger and less reactive after a while, and try and reach out to her. 

The trick is to learn to act and not react. 

[whitebackatcha]

Well, that's the conundrum of BPD that we all struggle with.  The line between helping and enabling.  The line between boundaries and punishment.  I know exactly what you are dealing with now.  My wife has treated me like absolute crap, I will enforce a boundary for my own protection, and then she will claim I am making things worse by not communicating with her more.  Yet if I do communicate, I am a punching bag once again.  On my end, it feels like no-win.  But if I think about it, it is only a no-win if I consider my goal as to "fix" what is "broken".  I can choose to trust me, work on me, take care of myself, and let her do what she is going to do.  That's the difficult option #3 that we rarely see.

It sounds to me like you are in a place where you aren't sure if you want the r/s to continue or not, even as friends.  That's okay, we understand because we have all been there (or still are there).  And it sounds like you are wondering if there is anything you can do right now to re-establish some kind of constructive conversation.  I'm saying that anything you say or do right with her will not get you to your long term goal, whatever that may be.  You can communicate with her, and likely just become her punching bag again.  Or you can not respond, and she will get upset, and be her punching bag. That is why I am suggesting, for the time being, just taking care of yourself, doing what you feel is right, and doing what makes you happy.  At some point in the future, she may reach out in a calmer way, and you can decide how to act in that case.  Or, you may feel stronger and less reactive after a while, and try and reach out to her. 

The trick is to learn to act and not react. 

It's hard for me to edit quotes on my phone, sorry!

I'm glad you understand. That third option is so hard to practice when all you know is the "just try harder and forgive" option, and all the relationship books say "if someone is crappy to you often, they're abusive and you should leave, period."

When she did NC over seemingly nothing, this was the first time I didn't chase. I decided that, if I had to chase her after she did something that crappy, just to keep the relationship, I was (for the first time) willing to let it go. It's not that I want to let it go. I've never loved anyone like I love her, ever. But I've been putting up with anything and everything to try and get her to stay, and I just can't do it anymore.

I am 99% sure she had BPD, she has SO many of the symptoms. At the same time, I don't think the "they won't listen to requests, only natural consequences" thing doesn't apply to her unless she is full-on dysregulated. I told her, "I feel hurt that I'm being treated like this. I care about and want to hear your feelings, but it has to be respectful." We had a long discussion, where she was very direct about her side. I'm glad, but honest to god, I'm so exhausted right now.

What do you do when someone honestly believes that you do certain things intentionally, and that asking for what they need doesn't work because issues still happen? I will never be perfect. I will never do everything right. I don't like being scared someone will end their relationship with me because of one time I didn't understand what she needed because I misread the situation.

[EaglesJuju]

What do you do when someone honestly believes that you do certain things intentionally, and that asking for what they need doesn't work because issues still happen? I will never be perfect. I will never do everything right. I don't like being scared someone will end their relationship with me because of one time I didn't understand what she needed because I misread the situation.

Unfortunately, the distorted thinking is part of the disorder. I handle the distorted thinking/considering feelings as facts, with my own rationality. It helps when I stop thinking that this is the behavior of a non-disordered person. For a long time I would think of my bf's behavior as a non-disordered person and I would get a lot of anxiety as a result. Once you get to a point where you can almost depersonalize the behavior, the fear and worry reduces considerably.

[whitebackatcha]

Unfortunately, the distorted thinking is part of the disorder. I handle the distorted thinking/considering feelings as facts, with my own rationality. It helps when I stop thinking that this is the behavior of a non-disordered person. For a long time I would think of my bf's behavior as a non-disordered person and I would get a lot of anxiety as a result. Once you get to a point where you can almost depersonalize the behavior, the fear and worry reduces considerably.

I think I'm too emotional right now to have remembered that. I managed to get through the conversation, and then didn't have the energy to apply any of that information to the deeper issues.

If someone does something on purpose, eventually I'm going to leave. Like... .if she really believes this stuff, then it doesn't matter if it's true, it's just going to make her hate me. But then yeah, she goes back to nice, loving, and patient... .And I've already seen that I shouldn't treat what she is saying today as an indication of how she will always feel.

Do you know what is funny? She is the reason I have the self esteem I do. She is the one who made me see that I shouldn't worry what others think, and made me realize I was using fear as an excuse not to live the life I wanted. She built me up like nobody in my life has been able to, yet she does all this to me as well.

[babyducks]

How does that coexist with what is being said in this thread?

There is a lot of good stuff in this thread.   I liked what max said.

BPD is a serious mental disorder.  A person who suffers from BPD processes feelings and external stimuli in a different way than a person who doesn't have the disorder.   As EaglesJuJu said sometimes there isn't a lot of rationality to it.  At those times it's best to just walk away after disengaging with as much dignity and gentleness as you can.  There is no reason to stay and be a verbal punching bag.   I have found that means walking away while being told I was being mean, that I didn't care, that I wasn't considering her needs.

maybe you have seen this thread?

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0

it's a long workshop but way down in there is this quote:

You ignore your own discomfort, anger, anxiety or fear so that someone else can be happy and comfortable. For example, when your partner yells at you, do you request her to not yell at you and offer to talk when emotions aren't as heated, or do you bite your tongue, figuring that it's easier to swallow your anger at being treated disrespectfully vs. possibly angering her even more? Anger, anxiety, fear and other uncomfortable emotions are hard-wired into human beings to help us recognize when our boundaries are being violated. Ignoring your own uncomfortable emotions sends a signal -- to yourself and to others -- that you don't respect yourself. It may work as a short-term strategy for avoiding conflict. But ultimately, it will lead to bigger problems.

that's my clue as to when to leave a conversation or when to try to use the tools here to continue a conversation, how much discomfort am I feeling at my boundaries being violated, and which way is the conversation going, is it escalating into more negativity or calming.   

It's a judgment call.    Looking back with 20/20 hindsight, I think I should have walked away and dropped more conversations than I actually did.

there is also a long post from an0ught in that thread

Timing is important.  There is a significant difference when the pwBPD is regulated vs when they are not.

A healthy person has a working emotional regulation system. This means your emotions go up and then several working feedback mechanisms kick in that cool you down. Self soothing is one of them. Which requires to know that you (sense of self) are feeling something.A pwBPD has not a well really working emotional regulation system. This means when emotions go up then several feedback mechanisms kick in which are out-of-phase often make matters worse.

When pwBPD is not yet dysregulated, proper outside feedback (validation) can help with regulation and thus emotions stay within reasonable bounds.

When dysregulated our feedback is not able to help anymore. Emotions oscillate so much or are so extreme that we won't be able to provide sensible validation. At any given moment in time we are as likely to validate as we are to invalidate. Invalidation counts a lot more than validation. So we add to the mess and our well intended words and actions just feed the rage, make it worse and prolong it. Our own undirected energy is fuel into the fire.

When stepping out we let them dissipate their energy. When the pwBPD is finally exhausted

  - some self soothing may happen which is valuable long term

  - our absence ensures that emotions are not associated with us but with the person that is able to tackle them i.e. the pwBPD.

  - we are back in time, are balanced and have a plan. We now can step in and actually help.

==> less damage as the fire is not fed from two fuel tanks

==> some learning of self soothing and building of a sense of identity (check out the workshop on codependency and enmeshment)

==> quicker recovery of the partnership as one fuel tank is left intact

'ducks

[EaglesJuju]

I think I'm too emotional right now to have remembered that. I managed to get through the conversation, and then didn't have the energy to apply any of that information to the deeper issues.

It is really hard to apply when you are upset. Mindfulness really has helped me in situations like yours. I tend to think in emotional mind often and my emotions can override my rationality.  I practice mindfulness to balance my emotions and rationality. Take a  look at this article, it has really helped me.  

TOOLS: DBT for Non Borderlines- Mindfulness

Do you know what is funny? She is the reason I have the self esteem I do. She is the one who made me see that I shouldn't worry what others think, and made me realize I was using fear as an excuse not to live the life I wanted. She built me up like nobody in my life has been able to, yet she does all this to me as well.

She gave you some really good advice. She is right, you should not worry about what others think. The most important thing is how you perceive yourself.   What happens to this insight when you are coping with her behaviors, what makes your self-esteem plummet?

[whitebackatcha]

What happens to this insight when you are coping with her behaviors, what makes your self-esteem plummet?

Good question. I think the power she has to make me believe in myself unlike anyone else is the same power she has to tear me down. But you know, I think it's also that abandonment stuff that so many of us have. If the people most important to you don't think you're worth it, what if you've just been deluding yourself?

I keep coming across the topic of mindfulness. It's one of the few topics I haven't read here, I guess I should check it out!

[EaglesJuju]

Good question. I think the power she has to make me believe in myself unlike anyone else is the same power she has to tear me down. But you know, I think it's also that abandonment stuff that so many of us have. If the people most important to you don't think you're worth it, what if you've just been deluding yourself?

I have felt exactly the same way. I have let the behaviors affect my self-esteem in the past. I thought that my pwBPD has the power to tear me down, but I have the power to not let my self-esteem to become affected.  Have you ever thought about it this way, you are worth it even thought the behaviors do not reinforce that view?  Remember the behaviors of a pwBPD are a paradox. I understand how difficult it is to not take the behavior personally, the origin of them has nothing to do with you.  Have you ever explored how abandonment stuff may affect your self-esteem?

[waverider]

Practicing and gaining confidence in disengaging, gives you that breathing space so that you aren't as reactive or as clumsy/forgetfull when attempting to use the better responses. Winging it while you are wound up leads to disaster.

It does pay to regularly take stock as to why are doing this, whats in this for us? That way you find it easier and less resentful than when you are stuck in a default survival mode. Some of the hardest and best questions i have faced are confronting versions of "why are you doing this?". Inevitably this initially sent me into JADE mode and generally invalidated me. However once you investigate it further you start to understand the importance of knowing the answer, as that will give you strength so you can then better own it as a choice.

Validation is a good day to day maintenance tool, but it is not a fix all. Dont fall into the trap of validating to the point of excessive appeasement against your better judgement. A term we use is don't validate the invalid.

Yes, abusive behavior may not be as personal as it sounds, but never the less we do not have to allow ourselves to be exposed to it. Taking the personal aspect away from it reduces our tendency to be over reactive to it, and allows us to utilize boundaries more objectively.

[formflier]

Once you get to a point where you can almost depersonalize the behavior, the fear and worry reduces considerably.

Great way to say this... .good point.

Then... .what I try to do is understand and define the consequences... .or the "mess" that has been made... .and see if I can  fix any of this... .or if I should even try to fix any of the "mess" that has been created by disordered thinking and actions.

Most of the time I use rational thinking to work through it... realize it's not "my" mess... .and let is be.


Whitebackatcha,

Hope you are doing well... .  Looking forward to reading an update from you.

FF