ironing out codependency

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

After some extensive reading, I identify with the fact im co-dependent, making for an extra volatile (emotionally) relationship with someone that has BPD.

I could probably pick out events from my childhood that led to the insecurity and lack of validation I feel... So with that, how do I work inside myself to stop being codependant?

I realize its a good question for a therapist... But id like to hear from people who have been down this road themselves.

Above all, id say I'm more insecure than anything, I have high expectations of people... I expect them to treat/respond to me how I would, if I were in their shoes. This leads to frequent conflicts as i tend to tell people when they're letting me down (ironically, though, I never did that to my BPD).

A good example: I send someone a message to hang out. If they read it and don't respond, they've let me down and I think lesser of that person... Because I try to make a point to follow up to all contacts promptly, so they don't have ill feelings of me that way.

[nihilo]

After some extensive reading, I identify with the fact im co-dependent, making for an extra volatile (emotionally) relationship with someone that has BPD.

I could probably pick out events from my childhood that led to the insecurity and lack of validation I feel... So with that, how do I work inside myself to stop being codependant?

I realize its a good question for a therapist... But id like to hear from people who have been down this road themselves.

Above all, id say I'm more insecure than anything, I have high expectations of people... I expect them to treat/respond to me how I would, if I were in their shoes. This leads to frequent conflicts as i tend to tell people when they're letting me down (ironically, though, I never did that to my BPD).

A good example: I send someone a message to hang out. If they read it and don't respond, they've let me down and I think lesser of that person... Because I try to make a point to follow up to all contacts promptly, so they don't have ill feelings of me that way.

[fromheeltoheal]

A good example: I send someone a message to hang out. If they read it and don't respond, they've let me down and I think lesser of that person... Because I try to make a point to follow up to all contacts promptly, so they don't have ill feelings of me that way.

What would it mean if someone had ill feelings of you?  I spent much of my youth looking externally for validation, and if someone didn't like me that meant I was 'bad' or 'defective'.  So I got very good at figuring out who I needed to be to be liked, a false self, and it worked, people liked me, maybe didn't respect me much because someone changing who they are to be liked is transparent and needy, but they liked me.  Inauthentic and exhausting.

So what to do?  Change what things mean.  You mention you return contacts promptly, because someone will have ill feelings if you don't.  What you're doing is giving them a lot of power as well as thinking that you can control how other people feel.  How about looking inside?  You might return a message promptly because that's how you want to be treated, one, and two, because you think and feel it's right, and you know that because you looked inward for that answer, to the quiet place at your core, where beliefs around what is right and what is wrong are kept.  And when you do what is right and don't do what is wrong, according to you, your self esteem will elevate.  And then you can have expectations, insist on them, you expect to be treated the way you treat people because you are worthy of that and you deserve it.  And if someone doesn't treat you that way, you can think lesser of them for a minute, and then let them go, they don't deserve any more of your energy, best to focus your energy on the folks who treat you the way you deserve to be treated, and let the rest go, right now.  Someone either gets the gift of your company or the gift of missing you, it's up to them.  If we don't take care of ourselves first we have nothing to give, selfishness is mandatory.

There's a set of beliefs that works for me, apply as needed, and the way to install a belief is choose to believe it, first, and then take it out in the world and look for and create references to support it, and once there are enough supporting references it will be a strong belief.  Take care of you!

[schwing]

hi Nihilo,

After some extensive reading, I identify with the fact im co-dependent, making for an extra volatile (emotionally) relationship with someone that has BPD.

I also identify with being co-dependent.  And I see that as people with BPD (pwBPD) should endeavor to "recover" from BPD, I should also endeavor to "recover" from co-dependency.  I think the recovery model is most apt because I expect that this is something I will need to deal with for the rest of my life.  I can expect to get better at it as I practice more, but I also allow myself the space to make mistakes and to "relapse" from time to time, as anyone can fall off the wagon.

I could probably pick out events from my childhood that led to the insecurity and lack of validation I feel... So with that, how do I work inside myself to stop being codependant? I realize its a good question for a therapist... But id like to hear from people who have been down this road themselves.

I think, for me, it has been crucial to focus not on what I should not do, but figure out what I need to do which will help me avoid the behaviors I wish to avoid.  So for example, in order to help minimize the insecurities I feel day to day or in specific situations, I've found that I've needed to invest some of my time to be spent by/with myself (*not* with someone else) in order to address my insecurities.  Sometimes this means I go out on excursions just by myself; it's almost like walking the dog, only I'm walking myself.  To be truthful, I find this kind of self-investment of time and resources to be very difficult and my tendency is to resist it with a variety of excuses (i.e., inconvenience, complacency, deferral to other more important concerns, etc... .).  And I realize that whenever I avoid spending this time with myself, I am in essence, telling myself that I do not deserve this kind of attention or investment, which reinforces any insecurities or lack of validation I might feel.

Another trap I fall into is trying to use these "self-investment" routines/rituals as a reward.  I tell myself if I won't "behave" then I don't deserve to x y or z.  Again, this ends up aggravating my issues rather than improving them.  This kind of self-investment cannot be seen as a reward, they are a necessity (at least for me).

I found that my best results happen when I consistently maintain my self-care rituals and behaviors.  I mainly require two sets of routines: (1) daily ones... .like writing in my journal and exercising.  and (2) occasional ones... .activities where I receive new and unfamiliar stimuli.

Above all, id say I'm more insecure than anything, I have high expectations of people... I expect them to treat/respond to me how I would, if I were in their shoes. This leads to frequent conflicts as i tend to tell people when they're letting me down (ironically, though, I never did that to my BPD).

I've found it better to allow other people the space to be selfish and self-absorbed.  As I like to be pleasantly surprised when I happen upon someone who does treat me well.  I also try to treat people well, but I've had to learn how not to treat people well at my own expense.

I think it is good to have clear intentions, and to be aware of other people's intentions.  But expectations are tricky.  Things don't often go as one might expect.  And if one's expectations are not met often or most of the time, then one might be setting oneself up for more disappointment than is necessary.  It is a good thing to treat people well.  And it is also a good thing to limit one's exposure to people who treat others poorly.  But it also good to have realistic and reasonable boundaries.

A good example: I send someone a message to hang out. If they read it and don't respond, they've let me down and I think lesser of that person... Because I try to make a point to follow up to all contacts promptly, so they don't have ill feelings of me that way.

I can empathize with your example.  And it reminds me of some of my behavior.  When I've contacted someone new such as by sending them a text or e-mail asking if they might like to spend time together, I would also feel let down if I don't hear back as soon as I would like.  And I would interpret their delayed response as a kind of rejection.  Maybe it was a rejection, maybe not.  Maybe the other person has things going on in their lives that limits their attention to me, the new contact.

I've found that when I have had sufficient time with myself, then I am less quick to jump to the conclusion that they delay of contact is a form of rejection.  Moreover, I've found that when I have sufficient self-care, I am more resilient to the possibility of a rejection.  When I am doing well, I move on and look for another opportunity.  When I am doing less well, I spend more time analyzing and pondering why this happened and try to "fix" a situation that perhaps does not need any fixing.

I hope some of this is helpful.

Best wishes,

Schwing

[nihilo]

What would it mean if someone had ill feelings of you?

I'll show others a facade that I don't care, but deep down, it shocks and bothers me and I want to know why they feel that way.

I spent much of my youth looking externally for validation, and if someone didn't like me that meant I was 'bad' or 'defective'.  So I got very good at figuring out who I needed to be to be liked, a false self, and it worked, people liked me, maybe didn't respect me much because someone changing who they are to be liked is transparent and needy, but they liked me.

I was never able to do that, I couldn't "fake it"

What you're doing is giving them a lot of power as well as thinking that you can control how other people feel.

That's an interesting perspective, I've never thought of it that way.

And if someone doesn't treat you that way, you can think lesser of them for a minute, and then let them go, they don't deserve any more of your energy, best to focus your energy on the folks who treat you the way you deserve to be treated, and let the rest go, right now.  Someone either gets the gift of your company or the gift of missing you, it's up to them.

I've taken that advice and removed the people from my contacts that continually disappoint me, I don't have a lot of people left on there.

If we don't take care of ourselves first we have nothing to give, selfishness is mandatory.

See, this goes against everything I feel I should expect from others. When I need them, I want them to be there for me, and vice versa. I do whatever I can to make myself available to the people I care about and I do see, very clearly, that it is almost never reciprocated. It makes me feel like everyone I know and am related to are selfish jerks.

Thanks for your post, lots of good insight and it really made me think.

I should also endeavor to "recover" from co-dependency.

Good point, I also feel this way - it is rather similar to a personality disorder in my opinion.

I've found that I've needed to invest some of my time to be spent by/with myself

This is a good point, I almost never do anything alone, I always ask someone to go with me. I feel vulnerable when I'm alone.

And I would interpret their delayed response as a kind of rejection.

This is exactly what I feel -- rejection, and it's all consuming for me.

When I am doing less well, I spend more time analyzing and pondering why this happened and try to "fix" a situation that perhaps does not need any fixing.

This has plagued me since I was a child, I analyze virtually everything, especially uncomfortable scenarios and seeing what I did wrong that led up to it.  Positive scenarios, I tend to see the darker side to them, also... my insecurity leads me to feel anything that good happens is short lived, or a mistake - an oversight.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey hihilo-

If we don't take care of ourselves first we have nothing to give, selfishness is mandatory.

See, this goes against everything I feel I should expect from others. When I need them, I want them to be there for me, and vice versa. I do whatever I can to make myself available to the people I care about and I do see, very clearly, that it is almost never reciprocated. It makes me feel like everyone I know and am related to are selfish jerks.

Thanks for your post, lots of good insight and it really made me think.

You're welcome.

It's great to care for each other, but when we put someone else's needs before ours to the point that it depletes us, we've gone too far.  Folks who care about us won't let us do that though, and we wouldn't do it to them, but folks who are all take and no give and are self-centered either won't care or won't be aware that we're becoming depleted meeting their needs, and for us to continue doing it is indeed codependency.

And givers give, but even the most selfless among us is eventually going to ask 'where's mine' if they're always in situations where it's all give and no take.  And to be fair, sometimes we need to ask for what we need too, something I still struggle with, but people who care about us will want to help.  And if we've asked, folks know where we're coming from, and still won't focus on our needs at all or enough, we need to decide if we're still willing to make room for that person in our lives.  Take care of you!

[whitebackatcha]

And it is also a good thing to limit one's exposure to people who treat others poorly.  But it also good to have realistic and reasonable boundaries.

How does one then decide what is reasonable?

[SurfNTurf]

I am enjoying this discussion, it certainly makes one think.

"And to be fair, sometimes we need to ask for what we need too, something I still struggle with, but people who care about us will want to help. "

I struggle, too, with asking for help but that is because if I ask my pwBPD for help, I get words without action. I get a Yes, but then really, No. My co-dependency issues, I believe, are always believing (or a profound WANTING to believe) my pwBPD, or EXPECTING help because my pwBPD SAID they would help, but seldom follows through. I wish I could stop hoping for my pwBPD to follow through when they say they will. But it gets me every time. I leave for work, my pwBPD says they will follow through with something, I'm exhausted when I go home at end of my workday but during the drive home I think, "oh but this or that will be done b/c he said he'd do it" only to get home and... .start the 2nd shift.

Any ideas how to rid myself of hope?

[fromheeltoheal]

Any ideas how to rid myself of hope?

Hey SnT-

It depends what you're hoping for.  Are you hoping your partner will follow through with commitments, or act with integrity, do what they say they're going to do, or hoping they'll wake up one day and not be disordered, or hoping you'll stop believing your partner, or hoping you'll stop wanting to believe, or hoping that the relationship will work?

Kinda went off there, but I notice you've spent most of your time here on the Staying board, some undecided, and some leaving; are you going to end this relationship or try and make it work?  Letting go of the hope that it could work is painful, but a necessary part of letting go.

[valet]

Any ideas how to rid myself of hope?

Hey SnT-

It depends what you're hoping for.  Are you hoping your partner will follow through with commitments, or act with integrity, do what they say they're going to do, or hoping they'll wake up one day and not be disordered, or hoping you'll stop believing your partner, or hoping you'll stop wanting to believe, or hoping that the relationship will work?

Kinda went off there, but I notice you've spent most of your time here on the Staying board, some undecided, and some leaving; are you going to end this relationship or try and make it work?  Letting go of the hope that it could work is painful, but a necessary part of letting go.

This is a very valid point.

I'm highlighting here more myself, as I think that it applies to me very well. SurfNTurf, it could apply to you as well.

So far I've been keeping a friendship with my pwBPD, and as of now I feel that I have a lot of power and self-control. I feel that the ball is in my court, so to speak. I think that I've done a reasonable job of accepting her decisions, and of not projecting my expectations onto her. However, I do still do it. It is a consequence of having any kind of a relationship with anyone, in my eyes.

But what if she suddenly cuts and runs? I haven't considered this situation fully, and it makes me question whether or not I am truly prepared to let her go.

I will think more about this.