BFF Update: Visit with psychiatrist

[Depression = 72% of members]

scroll to the bold for the update without backstory

For any of you who haven't been following a small synopsis... .  We have been friends for about 10.5 months, and after about 3 months I started to notice things (but at the time I just ignored them), then at 6 months things really went south.  She seems to go in about 3 month cycles of getting close only to pull away, usually pretty spectacularly.  She only holds jobs for about 3 months and when she has a guy for about 1 month she pulls away from me.  We have two little girls, hers is 3 and mine just turned 5.

After her last pull away and things got more rocky with boyfriend she started reaching out again (after I had made the first move once I was in a place where I'd be ok with being rejected by her).  I had told her I had information to share with her (after learning about BPD) as she had often said she wished she had some answers as to why she acted the way she did, hurt people, and felt she had no control over her emotions.  When I found BPD and read over the symptoms at first I thought she exhibited 5, then realized later at least 7.  When she was ready to sit down and listen to what I had to say (which I was so happy about her wanting to listen, but terrified that it would upset her) I told her about BPD.  I started listing the symptoms without saying they were the symptoms for BPD and pre-empted it with telling her I am not a doctor, nor am I diagnosing her, just sharing information I found that might be helpful to her.  I listed off all 9 and she said yes to every single one.  That was about 1.5 months ago.

Since she has had a freak out here and there (something I have accepted about her), but her demeanor about it has been completely different than before.  She lets it go quicker for the most part (still upset, but not focusing on it and letting it go much quicker).  I brought up BPD once or twice in conversation and at first she was receptive, then she got upset once and said she didn't want me talking about it.  I stopped, but it came up in conversation later she was just upset about something else I said not specifically the BPD, but I still have not brought it up on conversation (although I did email her one or two things, along with many other things about overcoming anxiety and depression both of which she has been diagnosed with).  She has brought it up to me a few times, even stating she discussed her mood swings with a new guy she is interested in, which is HUGE since she rarely shares that much of her self with a guy.

This brings to me yesterday... .Her first visit to the psychiatrist since I mentioned BPD to her (as a side note she did have one pervious medical professional mention it to her as a possibility but she never followed up).  So I was not in this meeting obviously and who knows what things were said or dramatized, etc, but I found out some of it at the conclusion of the meeting.  The gist of what I got the therapist saying was:

"How dare she bring this to you!  No you do not have it, absolutely not, she is not a doctor.  What kind of friend does that to a person?  It sounds like she is a very bad friend and completely insensitive to you and everything you are going through in your life right now.  She is seemingly rubbing her life in your face when you are struggling for money and her husband works, you don't have your daughter while she gets to stay home with hers, and she is married and has a great life while you are going through a divorce!  She is an awful friend, horribly insensitive, and it sounds like a very unhealthy relationship and you should cut all ties immediately!"

So yes, I got a phone call with her relaying that information to me... .Some of her words were... .(mind you in my opinion completely false, but if you only hear what bits she gives at times she could make you think a saint was the devil)

"I can't believe I let you convince me I have BPD, I don't, I'm fine, nothing is wrong with me" --->  I did no such thing, in fact the notes I wrote up for her on BPD specifically at the top said... ."I am not a doctor, I am not diagnosing you or saying you have this, I am just sharing information I found that might be helpful since you have asked for answers and possibilities in the past."

"You are researching me and my life, what is wrong with you... .maybe you need to go see my psychiatrist."  --->  If she knew anything about me she'd know I LOVE research... .I currently have a stack of library books 10 high on communication, I just finished a stack on buddhism and my next stack to get is on parenting.  It's like one of my top 10 things I LOVE doing, plus I could be wrong but to research her wouldn't I have to actually talk to her and since she doesn't talk to me, allow questions to be asked or answer them most of the time isn't that kind of unprobable?

"You completely cannot relate to what I am going through even though you say you do, you don't, and you never will."  --->  I have said I understand, I am a ridiculously empathic person and I understand even though I do not relate at this time in my life to most of what she is going through.  Plus if I was where she is right now, there is absolutely NO WAY I could be here for her at all... .I'd have too much trouble dealing with all of my own stuff.

"You are so insensitive!"  --->  When she asked me to not mention her old work that she got fired/quit where I still volunteer, I stopped immediately.  She has asked me to not to ask questions about her daughter's future since she feels she cannot plan anything it upsets her, I stopped.  As for my daughter, at this point it's been the only "safe topic" for months.  Now unfortunately it causes her pain because it only makes her think of her daughter... .  I'm kind of at a loss here.

"You have no understanding of what my life is like, I have to work all the time to support myself, and you call me up saying you're bored and want to hang out."  --->  I think maybe she's mixing me up with our young 13 year old friend as I have never called her up and said this, nor do I call her up and ask if I and/or my daughter can come over.  I began leaving the planning up to her as she is the one with the more difficult schedule to plan around.  Just today I got multiple messages from the 13 year old saying she was bored and could we hang out.

"All you ever want to do is talk, about feelings... .and have US time"  --->  I cannot for the life of me remember when I used the words "let's talk" as they have a history of freaking her out.  As for talking about feeling again, haven't even mentioned mine in months.  About US time, yes sometimes I like some grown up time so I don't have to worry about the kids stressing her out or getting my daughter home to bed.  She had even just said the week previously we should go for a walk sometime without our girls so we could enjoy ourselves as long as we wanted without them complaining about their feet hurting.

"You're not good for me, every time we hang out I get a panic attack."  --->  Huh?  She tells me at our joint birthday party (which she offered to have) this past weekend for herself, my daughter, and me (our birthdays are each 2 days apart)... .when we were setting up she got a little flustered which is frankly her normal, which I see her do whenever people are coming over.  Her OCD goes into overdrive and she cleans everything, yelling at the girls if they mess anything up.  She told me that freak out was about me... .yet it was just after she realized her cat may be missing/hurt/injured as he hadn't been home at all that day; so seemingly not about me.  On a previous occasion recently when she also got flustered it was after she invited a new boy over, and I had been there with her for hours before and nothing so again, can't see that as my fault at all.  Plus she has even called me when having a panic attack so that really couldn't be me as I wasn't even there.


My thoughts... .yesterday she had to go to therapy which always causes her to be off kilter... .she had just dropped off her daughter with her soon to be ex-husband (possibly his girlfriend was there which makes her furious).  So the start of her day was pretty hectic to begin with then follow it up with the psychiatrist and well I get a ranting angry phone call about how horrible and insensitive of a friend I am.  She said she'd call later after she thought it over, never did as expected.  I called today as my daughter has already begun asking when she can hang out with her friend and not having answer for her sucks so I called, no answer as expected, so I told munchkin I guess not any time soon.

I know we are not doctors, but is it normal for a psychiatrist to have a patient come in believing they fit the symptoms of something and then walk out being told absolutely not they do not have it?  Also, does it seem like a psychiatrist who wanted to help you get better, create lasting and healthy relationships would tell you to cut all ties with the one person you have always been able to lean on?  I am completely baffled by this... .strangest thing I've ever heard.  Honestly this is just after 1 month with new boy in her life so I was expecting her to push, I just didn't expect words from a psychiatrist to be the excuse.

She's on the road towards 3 months at her current job and already complaining nonstop about it, so within the next few months that will go south.  Honestly new boy is my favorite yet!  My jaw nearly audibly hit the floor when I heard how he talks to her... .bluntly is a good word for it.  She complains about work and having to go in when she told her boss she needed off, he literally said, "I can fix that for you.  Tell her no.  Don't make excuses and stop complaining, you do it to yourself."  I almost fell over!  I hope he stays around, because unlike me who would have gotten my head bit off for that exact statement (which I probably never would have delivered so bluntly), she just giggled and playfully pushed him.  I hope he sticks around more than the 3 month minimum... .*fingers crossed* 

Emotionally I'm pretty good... .a few tears immediately after just out of frustration that all the reasons she gave me, probably the ones she gave to the psychiatrist weren't even true.  Her impression of how things are and how most other people would see them is so off it's ridiculous at times.  Yet again, my daughter and I just had a good weekend with her, and enjoyed getting to know new boy and most of his family.  We even got invited to his nephew's birthday in a few months which my daughter was thrilled about, now we may be shunned.  So glad munchkin is starting school in August and 4H, and joining a homeschool group, and swimming class, and cheerleading, and we just got her a pass to go to an indoor playground as much as she wants.  Hoping she makes new friends, but I feel really sad for the munchkins that BFF's ups and downs end up hurting them most in the end.

[DearBFF]

scroll to the bold for the update without backstory

For any of you who haven't been following a small synopsis... .  We have been friends for about 10.5 months, and after about 3 months I started to notice things (but at the time I just ignored them), then at 6 months things really went south.  She seems to go in about 3 month cycles of getting close only to pull away, usually pretty spectacularly.  She only holds jobs for about 3 months and when she has a guy for about 1 month she pulls away from me.  We have two little girls, hers is 3 and mine just turned 5.

After her last pull away and things got more rocky with boyfriend she started reaching out again (after I had made the first move once I was in a place where I'd be ok with being rejected by her).  I had told her I had information to share with her (after learning about BPD) as she had often said she wished she had some answers as to why she acted the way she did, hurt people, and felt she had no control over her emotions.  When I found BPD and read over the symptoms at first I thought she exhibited 5, then realized later at least 7.  When she was ready to sit down and listen to what I had to say (which I was so happy about her wanting to listen, but terrified that it would upset her) I told her about BPD.  I started listing the symptoms without saying they were the symptoms for BPD and pre-empted it with telling her I am not a doctor, nor am I diagnosing her, just sharing information I found that might be helpful to her.  I listed off all 9 and she said yes to every single one.  That was about 1.5 months ago.

Since she has had a freak out here and there (something I have accepted about her), but her demeanor about it has been completely different than before.  She lets it go quicker for the most part (still upset, but not focusing on it and letting it go much quicker).  I brought up BPD once or twice in conversation and at first she was receptive, then she got upset once and said she didn't want me talking about it.  I stopped, but it came up in conversation later she was just upset about something else I said not specifically the BPD, but I still have not brought it up on conversation (although I did email her one or two things, along with many other things about overcoming anxiety and depression both of which she has been diagnosed with).  She has brought it up to me a few times, even stating she discussed her mood swings with a new guy she is interested in, which is HUGE since she rarely shares that much of her self with a guy.

This brings to me yesterday... .Her first visit to the psychiatrist since I mentioned BPD to her (as a side note she did have one pervious medical professional mention it to her as a possibility but she never followed up).  So I was not in this meeting obviously and who knows what things were said or dramatized, etc, but I found out some of it at the conclusion of the meeting.  The gist of what I got the therapist saying was:

"How dare she bring this to you!  No you do not have it, absolutely not, she is not a doctor.  What kind of friend does that to a person?  It sounds like she is a very bad friend and completely insensitive to you and everything you are going through in your life right now.  She is seemingly rubbing her life in your face when you are struggling for money and her husband works, you don't have your daughter while she gets to stay home with hers, and she is married and has a great life while you are going through a divorce!  She is an awful friend, horribly insensitive, and it sounds like a very unhealthy relationship and you should cut all ties immediately!"

So yes, I got a phone call with her relaying that information to me... .Some of her words were... .(mind you in my opinion completely false, but if you only hear what bits she gives at times she could make you think a saint was the devil)

"I can't believe I let you convince me I have BPD, I don't, I'm fine, nothing is wrong with me" --->  I did no such thing, in fact the notes I wrote up for her on BPD specifically at the top said... ."I am not a doctor, I am not diagnosing you or saying you have this, I am just sharing information I found that might be helpful since you have asked for answers and possibilities in the past."

"You are researching me and my life, what is wrong with you... .maybe you need to go see my psychiatrist."  --->  If she knew anything about me she'd know I LOVE research... .I currently have a stack of library books 10 high on communication, I just finished a stack on buddhism and my next stack to get is on parenting.  It's like one of my top 10 things I LOVE doing, plus I could be wrong but to research her wouldn't I have to actually talk to her and since she doesn't talk to me, allow questions to be asked or answer them most of the time isn't that kind of unprobable?

"You completely cannot relate to what I am going through even though you say you do, you don't, and you never will."  --->  I have said I understand, I am a ridiculously empathic person and I understand even though I do not relate at this time in my life to most of what she is going through.  Plus if I was where she is right now, there is absolutely NO WAY I could be here for her at all... .I'd have too much trouble dealing with all of my own stuff.

"You are so insensitive!"  --->  When she asked me to not mention her old work that she got fired/quit where I still volunteer, I stopped immediately.  She has asked me to not to ask questions about her daughter's future since she feels she cannot plan anything it upsets her, I stopped.  As for my daughter, at this point it's been the only "safe topic" for months.  Now unfortunately it causes her pain because it only makes her think of her daughter... .  I'm kind of at a loss here.

"You have no understanding of what my life is like, I have to work all the time to support myself, and you call me up saying you're bored and want to hang out."  --->  I think maybe she's mixing me up with our young 13 year old friend as I have never called her up and said this, nor do I call her up and ask if I and/or my daughter can come over.  I began leaving the planning up to her as she is the one with the more difficult schedule to plan around.  Just today I got multiple messages from the 13 year old saying she was bored and could we hang out.

"All you ever want to do is talk, about feelings... .and have US time"  --->  I cannot for the life of me remember when I used the words "let's talk" as they have a history of freaking her out.  As for talking about feeling again, haven't even mentioned mine in months.  About US time, yes sometimes I like some grown up time so I don't have to worry about the kids stressing her out or getting my daughter home to bed.  She had even just said the week previously we should go for a walk sometime without our girls so we could enjoy ourselves as long as we wanted without them complaining about their feet hurting.

"You're not good for me, every time we hang out I get a panic attack."  --->  Huh?  She tells me at our joint birthday party (which she offered to have) this past weekend for herself, my daughter, and me (our birthdays are each 2 days apart)... .when we were setting up she got a little flustered which is frankly her normal, which I see her do whenever people are coming over.  Her OCD goes into overdrive and she cleans everything, yelling at the girls if they mess anything up.  She told me that freak out was about me... .yet it was just after she realized her cat may be missing/hurt/injured as he hadn't been home at all that day; so seemingly not about me.  On a previous occasion recently when she also got flustered it was after she invited a new boy over, and I had been there with her for hours before and nothing so again, can't see that as my fault at all.  Plus she has even called me when having a panic attack so that really couldn't be me as I wasn't even there.


My thoughts... .yesterday she had to go to therapy which always causes her to be off kilter... .she had just dropped off her daughter with her soon to be ex-husband (possibly his girlfriend was there which makes her furious).  So the start of her day was pretty hectic to begin with then follow it up with the psychiatrist and well I get a ranting angry phone call about how horrible and insensitive of a friend I am.  She said she'd call later after she thought it over, never did as expected.  I called today as my daughter has already begun asking when she can hang out with her friend and not having answer for her sucks so I called, no answer as expected, so I told munchkin I guess not any time soon.

I know we are not doctors, but is it normal for a psychiatrist to have a patient come in believing they fit the symptoms of something and then walk out being told absolutely not they do not have it?  Also, does it seem like a psychiatrist who wanted to help you get better, create lasting and healthy relationships would tell you to cut all ties with the one person you have always been able to lean on?  I am completely baffled by this... .strangest thing I've ever heard.  Honestly this is just after 1 month with new boy in her life so I was expecting her to push, I just didn't expect words from a psychiatrist to be the excuse.

She's on the road towards 3 months at her current job and already complaining nonstop about it, so within the next few months that will go south.  Honestly new boy is my favorite yet!  My jaw nearly audibly hit the floor when I heard how he talks to her... .bluntly is a good word for it.  She complains about work and having to go in when she told her boss she needed off, he literally said, "I can fix that for you.  Tell her no.  Don't make excuses and stop complaining, you do it to yourself."  I almost fell over!  I hope he stays around, because unlike me who would have gotten my head bit off for that exact statement (which I probably never would have delivered so bluntly), she just giggled and playfully pushed him.  I hope he sticks around more than the 3 month minimum... .*fingers crossed* 

Emotionally I'm pretty good... .a few tears immediately after just out of frustration that all the reasons she gave me, probably the ones she gave to the psychiatrist weren't even true.  Her impression of how things are and how most other people would see them is so off it's ridiculous at times.  Yet again, my daughter and I just had a good weekend with her, and enjoyed getting to know new boy and most of his family.  We even got invited to his nephew's birthday in a few months which my daughter was thrilled about, now we may be shunned.  So glad munchkin is starting school in August and 4H, and joining a homeschool group, and swimming class, and cheerleading, and we just got her a pass to go to an indoor playground as much as she wants.  Hoping she makes new friends, but I feel really sad for the munchkins that BFF's ups and downs end up hurting them most in the end.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Beach_Babe]

Did you get this information from her doctor or is it hearsay? I can't imagine a psychiatrist saying something like this.

[DearBFF]

Nope... .no way to get it straight from the horse's mouth so to speak.  I would never call up someone who thinks I am a horrible person based on the information she gave them, .  Would do just as much good as me contacting her old roommate who thinks I'm psychotic, .  It's honestly funny to me stepping back seeing the whole picture, realizing how small of a frame some people in her life actually see.  It's like they're blinded, but then again so was I once.  Then things started to make sense, almost all of the "horrible people" ended up being recycled.  I met them, they're nice people who just got tired of her drama and left.

It's just hard to imagine that a professional doesn't see it, I mean I truly hope he thinks he's helping but he's just being played like everyone else.  Even though I know truly she doesn't do it on purpose.  I've seen her bad mouth someone she thinks is the nicest person in the whole world just because she was being egged on... .so if one not great thing came out of her mouth and it was bad and he said something like "well that doesn't sound very nice" she could have whipped up a whole slew of them.  Hubby is looking into counseling through his work for me, he said they may have a handful of people I could go talk to for free so it doesn't have to come out of insurance.  I know I'm not the one with BPD-like symptoms, and I have no intentions of telling her, but for my own sanity I'd like a second opinion!

She's down in the keys with new boy and his family today, looks like they're having fun, I'm glad.  It's probably very easy to have fun with people you have no actual history with though, since they only know the fun happy you, have never been raged at, or kicked out of your life repeatedly.  They're one month in... .about 2 months to go based on her usual history, we'll see how long they last.  I hope a long while as I really like them, plus they don't drink or do drugs!

[Beach_Babe]

The psychiatrist wants to get paid. Insurance will  often not do so for  thus diagnosis.

It sounds like your friend is feeling defensive, and projecting a lot of this onto you.  Could  things in the new relationship be going sour ?

[DearBFF]

The new boy and his family actually seem like very nice people and the way he puts her in her place when she is having a "moment" is quite refreshing.  It seems that everything is going well in their friendship which is probably why she has pushed me away in this manner.  When things are good I get pushed away, when they are bad is when she calls me in as a reinforcement.

[DearBFF]

I really liked the quoted response you included Inside and I'm wondering if that may be why my friend's psychiatrist responded as he did.  I am still almost positive she has BPD, even though I am not a doctor and cannot diagnosis I'd rather believe this than think my best friend is just a cruel and insensitive person.  However, if her psychiatrists response is due to him not being able to bill her for treatment of BPD I would hope he would refer her elsewhere.  Instead his response was that she absolutely does not have BPD, that I am a horrible friend, insensitive to her situation and she needs to cut all ties with me immediately.  (At least that's what she said so I'm trying to take it with a grain of salt.)

I wish I had more resources to look into this and see if this is a normal/acceptable response when a patient shows up stating "I think this is what I have."  Plus cutting out the one person who has been there even after harsh words were spoken, rage and yelling was exhibited, and no contact has happened does not seem like the best advice for a patient who needs a support system in their life.  I wish there was a more cut and dry way to understand diagnosis and mental health professionals, but I guess it's all relative.  In my friend's case perhaps he really just doesn't/hasn't seen it.  I spent time almost weekly with her (daily near the beginning) and it took me months to notice the behaviors that didn't add up with her depression/anxiety/OCD diagnosis.  Maybe some mental health professionals just see what the patient lays out in front of them completely missing whatever they have hidden up their sleeve?

Anyone who wants to read more about my friend's visit to the psychiatrist (as relayed to me by her) you can see the post here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=280721.0

[SummerStorm]

In my friend's case perhaps he really just doesn't/hasn't seen it.  I spent time almost weekly with her (daily near the beginning) and it took me months to notice the behaviors that didn't add up with her depression/anxiety/OCD diagnosis.  Maybe some mental health professionals just see what the patient lays out in front of them completely missing whatever they have hidden up their sleeve?

I think you're right.  I was with my former friend BPD almost every day because we worked together.  I met her last August and became friends with her in January.  By February, she was calling me her best friend.  That itself should have been a  , as in November, she was calling someone else her best friend.  She referred to her as her "best friend from college."  And I thought, "Why 'from college'?"  I now know it was because the end of college triggered her abandonment fears.  They no longer saw each other all the time, so that was it.  But anyway, she and I would talk for hours after work.  We would then text each other when we got home.  We hung out.  She came over to my house. 

She told me that she suffered from depression, anxiety, and ADHD.  She also suffered from nightmares and insomnia as a result of childhood sexual abuse and was seeing a psychiatrist.  She had been seeing a psychiatrist for several years and had already attempted suicide once.  Starting in April, she said she had bi-polar disorder.  I still have no idea if she was actually diagnosed with it or if she basically diagnosed herself with it.  Either way, she once said to me, "It's because I have bi-polar disorder or whatever."  I think she knew that something wasn't quite right with that diagnosis. 

It wasn't until her second suicide attempt that she was diagnosed with BPD.  So, it's not like she was lying on purpose to her psychiatrist or anyone.  She was just lying by omission.  She was willing to give answers, but no one had yet asked her the right questions, so she never went into details.

She is a 9/9 BPD.  Chaos follows her everywhere she goes.  When I picture her walking anywhere, I just picture her surrounded by this huge funnel cloud of objects being tossed around in the fury of it all. 

[SummerStorm]

My former BFF (oops, I guess it wasn't forever  ) BPD sounds a lot like yours.  A co-worker said to me the other day, "It's like she can only focus on one person in her life at a time."   

She became friends with me right when she met her current boyfriend.  She started asking me to get an apartment with her while she was still with her boyfriend.  She tried to commit suicide, he called the ambulance, she views him as her savior, and she now has no time for anyone else.  When she discarded me, she gave me three reasons why:

1. I tried to tell her I was tired of accommodating my schedule to fit hers (she cancels plans all the time), and she told me that it was my problem because I chose to accommodate her. 

2. She was tired of my "mopey, disappointed BS" whenever she canceled plans. 

3. Her schedule depended on her boyfriend's schedule, since she would rather spend time with him than me. 

Mine actually was diagnosed with BPD and wrote to me to say that she "hopes to get treatment" to "heal her broken mind" once she moves in September.  When I visited her in the hospital, I told her that I had spent 5 hours researching BPD the night before.  When I said, "I read that domestic theft is common.  You still have several things that belong to me, and I've been asking for them since March," she replied, "I said I'd give them back."  To me, that was her denying that trait.   

I really, really doubt that what she told you about her visit to the psychiatrist is true.  And if it is, it's because she lied to him and spun all kinds of stories about you.  If that's the case and the psychiatrist really believed her lies, then he is obviously does not have experience with BPD. 

"All you ever want to do is talk, about feelings... .and have US time"

Are you me in a parallel universe,  ?  It's like your friend and my former friend got together and wrote a script for how to talk to us.   

When she was in the hospital, she said that she was going to be bored when she went home because her boyfriend works and she had no job.  I said, "Well, I'm just a phone call or text away."  She just gave me this blank look.  I thought it was because she was tired and still upset, but it was because she was just done with me. 

"You're not good for me, every time we hang out I get a panic attack."

Ok, now I'm convinced that we are living the same life.  By the end of our friendship, whenever I texted her, she told me I caused her anxiety.  When she discarded me, she told me I was a poison in her life.

The unfortunate thing about your situation is that your daughter and her daughter are also feeling the push-pull of all of this.  I'm glad that you signed your daughter up for lots of activities and groups, but at the same time, it is unfair that your friend is doing things that upset both girls.   

[Beach_Babe]

 When things are good I get pushed away, when they are bad is when she calls me in as a reinforcement.

This was why I have not heard from mine, and a major point of contention. What happened when you told her you feel this way?

[DearBFF]

SummerStorm, the description you have given of your friend sounds EXACTLY like mine!  

<Moving the rest of my response over to my post since it seems more related there!  Thanks SummerStorm!>

[DearBFF]

Beach_Babe, I don't believe we've truly had that conversation.  I did mention in our G+ community that it is frustrating that I will never be new and shiny again, as those who are new and shiny to her always get her best.  The fact that I am old and faded (and cracked mostly due to her treatment of me) makes me in her eyes the lesser option I guess.  I can never compete with someone new and shiny, but I suppose on the other hand they can also never compete with me as she almost never lets them see all of her that I have.  That's when she runs back to me I suppose when she's in danger of showing it to them, knowing I won't reject her for it.


SummerStorm, Out of curiosity how old is your friend, or was she at the time (sorry to hear it is no longer unless of course you are happier that way)?  Mine just turned 24.  She has been diagnosed with depression, anxiety, OCD and you reminded me also ADHD (I forget that one sometimes because I don't see it and I honestly feel her mental disruptions and inability to calm her mind is the BPD not ADHD).  The first few months were just as you described, instant best friend, hanging out all the time, calling each other and texting.

When I told her about BPD, before mentioning the name I listed all of the symptoms to see what she thought and she said yes to 9/9.  Which is part of what baffles me, if a patient walks in saying I feel that I am BPD 9/9, how can he then say absolutely not you don't have that?  I think he must either not have experience, has just been so convinced she is this poor wounded creature he must protect (I've seen that reaction to her a lot especially from men), or as you say she wove some kind of tale.

For anyone who knows my friend as more than a passing acquaintance there is the common theory that she is bipolar, mostly due the fact that she exhibits almost 2 different personalities.  There is the nice/sweet/fun-loving version who would do anything for anyone and is patient and thoughtful, then there is the rude/gossips/disregards others feelings version who has a temper and leaves a trail of people who are afraid of her.  I used to say it all the time before I found out about BPD, it's like she's Jekyll & Hyde!  Plus I noticed that her moods were much faster than bipolar, in minutes she went from smiling to angry and back again; unlike bipolar which cycles for hours/days/weeks/months.

She has tried to commit suicide multiple times and been hospitalized before.  She used to cut when she was younger as well.

You did not mention does your friend idealize/devaluate you?  At first I got called things like saint/angel/perfect, then I got the opposite.  She has also transferred her unresolved anger towards her mother onto me several times.  Also, does she leave you?  Push you out of her life then let you back in several weeks or a month later?  How do you deal with this if she has in the past?

Wow, those 3 reasons sound familiar; I've heard similar before myself.  She tells me she works all the time and almost has no time for me yet almost every night I find out she's been hanging with the new boy and his family.

"Are you me in a parallel universe,  ?  It's like your friend and my former friend got together and wrote a script for how to talk to us."

, appears like we've met twinsies or something!  As for the anxiety I'm convinced that it is simply over the fact that she can't be emotionally open with me.  On the rare occasion she can, we just kind of melt together, spend hours talking and giggling and all is well.  Otherwise it's like I open my mouth and the air in the room changes and the hair on her arms bristles and suddenly I'm evil, !  It's especially odd that she got upset about me saying that as I only repeated what she had said to me only a week prior, I just missed her open emotions window is all.  Now that it's slammed closed again, she can't handle the thought of actually talking to me; even though I can't remember the last time I talked to her and didn't just listen to her problems.

I'm guessing your friend doesn't want to see the traits in herself.  It probably feels good on some level to have an answer I would think, but that doesn't necessarily mean you'd want to see yourself as that (especially if you ever spend time googling it and read the awful that gets put out there from those who have been wounded by BPD).  Thing is I'd much rather have a friend who has issues, like BPD than a friend who is just a cruel heartless person.  I don't ever want to believe that and I can't believe her psychiatrist would want her to either.  Maybe he doesn't realize when she talks about it, that's the option he's left her with!  :'(

I too hate that the girls get hurt... .I'm contemplating seeing if I can just get the girls together, pick up her daughter while her mother/brother watch her so I can leave her out of it from now on.  Of course that would require her picking up the damn phone, .

Thanks SummerStorm!  

[DearBFF]

UPDATE: Forgot to mention... .today I called hubby's work health benefits department who has counselors I can talk to on the phone that could refer me to someone I can see in person.  I will have 3 free visits, although I may only use one.  I had a lovely conversation on the phone with a counselor and then she set me up with a therapist who called me this afternoon and we too had a lovely chat.  She can't see me until the 12th of August, but for me I don't feel it's pressing or time is an issue.  Something to look forward to I suppose while i wait for BFF whom I truly do love dearly to do a 180 and remember she actually does like me.  I think it will be so nice to sit down and chat with someone who actually knows what BPD is, for me in my regular life I have only discussed it with hubby and a very small handful of other people.  However, almost no one actually knows what it is, so I have to start out by explaining it first.  They seem to always say something about "that's awful" and "she must struggle very much" but then when they actually hear about her behavior it turns into "that's awful, why are you still her friend?"  So it'll be nice to have someone who gets it and knows that I have chosen to stay (even though she walks away from me), so she can just help me learn how better to deal with it instead of just trying to convince me to go.

Here's the funny part... .when she started to tell me about where she is located she mentioned the building and I did not know the name, but she said what street it was on and I instantly smiled.  I said big building on the right as you go north on that road, bronze sculptures in front.  She is all, yep that's it, so you know it.  And I got to say, yep, I know it alright that's the building BFF's psychiatrist is in! !  Uhuh... .so then she delved into asking me her doctor's name and her name to be sure she doesn't know her and hasn't treated her before, she hasn't.  Now I'm wondering if my therapist and her psychiatrist will talk or something, which feels a bit odd, yet I'm not opposed to it, .  Hopefully it doesn't backfire though and he doesn't leak to Ash that I'm seeing someone in the building to talk about her and then she'll be pissed if he's getting info elsewhere.  I know it's supposed to be confidential to a point, but they all talk to each other I know so I wouldn't be surprised.  Wish me luck and we'll see what comes of it! *fingers crossed*

[Beach_Babe]

That is true DearBFF no one can compete with you! Too awesome

[DearBFF]

 , thanks Beach_Babe!   

I don't mean it in a competition way, more like I can never again be shiny and new so any random stranger will look better than me when she's annoyed with me.  Yet, when she wants connection and to be understood, no one will be safer than me because I've seen it all and she knows I'm not going anywhere.

[SummerStorm]

Hi Dear BFF,

I'll just start at the beginning and go from there.  It seems like we have a lot to cover!

Mine is 22 (23 in September).  She cheated on her boyfriend with me and thought that she was going to leave him for me (even looked at a house with me) and now blames me for everything and is triggered by me, so there's no way to save the friendship.  She's also moving 3,000 miles away, so it would have ended anyway.  I do miss the talks we had back in February and March, but there's no way to return to them, and it was basically just her mirroring me anyway.  I guess I'll just start talking to myself, .

Mine never takes her ADHD medication.  Actually, she was saving them up and those are what she took when she tried to commit suicide last month.  She took about 50 of them.

Mine plays the "poor wounded creature" card constantly.  She just breaks into tears at random times, blames everyone for causing her pain, and throws in lines about once being homeless (have no idea if that's even true) to convince people to get her to live with them.  And if she was homeless, it's because she had painted black everyone in her life and had nowhere to go.

From what I understand, pwBPD are able to fool therapists just as easily as they fool everyone else.  I still can't separate all of the lies from the truths because she weaves such convincing tales.

When I went back to work this week to prep my classroom for two days, the one secretary asked me about my ffBPD.  At first I was vague and didn't mention BPD, just that she has a disorder that's very complicated.  The secretary asked, "Is she bipolar?"  At that point, I just decided to tell her about BPD.  When things were getting really bad, I looked up bipolar, and things just didn't seem to fit.  Also, my mom has a friend who is bipolar, and I remember her having bad days and good days, not bad minutes and good minutes.  I don't know if this is true of everyone who is bipolar, but my mom's friend knows when she is having a bad day.  When they worked together, the friend would tell my mom, ":)on't let me anywhere near customers today." 

Mine cut a few years ago and has a lot of scars, but it had been a while.  She started again in early April.  I'm not sure why.  I guess the stress of everything in her life made her want to escape.

Yes, she idealized me.  First, it was as a friend.  Then, it was as a potential girlfriend.  She told me that I'm perfect, that I'm her "bae," that I'm the person she's been waiting for her whole life, that I'm the only one who understands her depression, and that I'm "adorable."  She hugged me all the time.  That was actually really sweet, and I do miss her hugs. 

We worked together and saw each other every day.  I only knew her for ten months and was only friends with her for five months.  So, there wasn't a lot of opportunity for her to just leave and push me away.  I have noticed that she does seem to go back and forth.  Back in about February or early March, she told me that she had dinner plans that night with her best friend from college.  She ended up canceling them, and I didn't hear anything about that friend again until the end of May, when my ffBPD was pulling away from me.  Her Facebook isn't public, and I was never friends with her, but based on likes and comments on her photos, she does this with everyone. 

Her anxiety stems from a lot of things.  She's constantly having to plan where she'll live next, who she'll date next, who she'll be friends with next, where she'll work next.  Her anxiety and shame do manifest themselves physically.  I used to think that she was lying about being sick, and there may have been times when she was, but I think that she worked herself up into such a frenzy about everything that she made herself sick.  Of course, she once told me that she was always sick because she lupus, which is a lie, so I was never very understanding when she canceled plans because she was sick. 

She pretty abruptly went from telling me everything about her life to not telling me anything at all.  She would literally update me every single class period on what she was doing.  She would even text me from the bathroom!  When she got home from the hospital, she completely shut down on me.  I had no idea what she was doing, how she was feeling, if she was applying for jobs or not.  When I mentioned that to her on the day that she discarded me for good, she told me that I don't need to know what she's doing.  That's true.  I didn't need to know her daily schedule, but she had just gotten out of the hospital!  For my own peace of mind, I wanted to know what/how she was doing.  My mom's one friend lives in another state and is going through radiation right now, and my mom gets regular updates from her. 

Yeah, I definitely think that being diagnosed with BPD causes pwBPD to find ways to downplay their symptoms.  I know I wouldn't want to be diagnosed with it.  And actually, when my ffBPD thought that she was bipolar, she only mentioned it once or twice to me.  She used to just say that she had depression and anxiety, and I think it's because those things are so common.    Think about how many ads you see for depression and anxiety meds.  Have you ever seen any for mood stabilizers? 

I guess what's really sad is that, with or without a diagnosis, pwBPD just can't stop doing what they're doing.  Mine wants to become a better person and wants to heal her broken mind.  That's all well and good, but in the meantime, the decisions she's been making recently have followed the same script she's been acting out for the past five years.   

[DearBFF]

SummerStorm,

It definitely seems like we have a lot in common.  I am pansexual and polyamorous (and yes also married to a man, who btw is straight and monogamous), but have never had sex with bff although we have made out once or twice; we have kissed and used to greet each other (not in mixed company) with a peck on the lips.  Anything more than our pecks was usually initiated by her, although I did initiate a kiss once or twice.  I am physically affectionate with almost everyone who gets close to me (only hubby, munchkin, and BFF when she's in my life).  Even with acquaintances I notice I will reach out and tuck their hair behind their ear, remove fuzz from their shirt, etc without even thinking about it.  At first BFF seemed fine with everything and while she told me she did not feel the way that I do (didn't have feelings as more than friends), she said she found women attractive and liked to fool around.  That was fine with me until she got odd about it, basically I once flat out asked if she was ok with it and she said yes; then weeks later she was completely against it and has even said things that made me feel bad about myself for feeling the way I did.  She used to compliment me on being myself and say she thought it was wonderful, even my affection, then she would hug me, but nothing more.  I realized she was very sensitive about the whole thing and she told me some things about her childhood which made me see what was behind it a bit.  The thing is I've always been open about my feelings for people (except when i didn't understand them myself), and it's never bothered me if they don't feel the same.  I can love someone and just be their friend, because I don't need more.  I love great conversation, being silly together, doing fun things, and snuggling up to watch a movie.  She seemed like she was fine with all this but now I wonder and she very much pushes and pulls with the affection.  Sometimes a hug is great, sometimes she says don't touch me, and other times it's like she won't let go.

BFF was taking meds, but then stopped and found other things to help her.  Now I feel that maybe the new boy and his family are stabilizing her enough that she may not need to take a lot.  I know she does still take her adderall, but usually only when she feels she needs it; basically as a way to get out of bed and get herself moving.  That makes her feel accomplished starting her day of good, otherwise sometimes she'll just sleep for hours and hours, and get nothing done making her feel bad.  Mine has tried a pill overdose and there was an attempt with a gun, I am glad she did not know me yet as I don't know how I would handle that.

Wounded create is a great way to put it, and I think you're right about fooling the therapist but I don't believe it is intentional (nor the lies).  I too was at a point in my life where I felt I had to lie to survive, it was easier than the alternative, or so it seemed.  I really don't think the therapist sees, and if she edits all she tells him and only says stuff based on what she feels right then no matter how out of left field it is and she wants her feelings validated he probably only responds to what she gives him.  He doesn't really have a way of seeing what she doesn't show him.

I have a friend and her best friend is also bipolar.  She has dropped out for 2 years before coming back like nothing happened.  That really upset me thinking of that possibility with my bff, even though I know she isn't bipolar.  I am now at a place where I don't need her or have to contact her, or have to know she'll come around eventually (although I believe she always will now); I just hate the thought that so much time could go by where she misses so much and it doesn't even occur to her.  I don't want there to be a day where say my daughter is getting married and I say we should invite bff and she says, who's that?  I'm guessing bff never thinks of that, but I do and it breaks my heart both for bff, for my daughter, and for hers as well.

The saddest part of me too is that before her psychiatrist visit she had nights of feeling so good, sitting down with her dbt book and working through things.  She'd would feel emotionally open and was reflecting on things, learning about herself and she would at times even have lightbulb moments with her behavior.  I was so proud of her!  I'm guess the therapist has no idea, but his patient was making leaps and bounds progress, sure it wasn't fun but her relationship (at least with me was becoming better, more open), she was being more open with herself and punishing herself less for her emotions, etc.  She also felt good knowing she had a name for it, instead of just being a horrible person (her words).  Now he's crushed all that and she may never again be open to the idea of it as a possible diagnosis; he may have ruined her treatment forever.   :'(

I know bff doesn't cut now, and I haven't seen evidence of the cuticle mutilation in months.  She escapes me by not answering the phone, canceling plans, and using her phone nonstop while I'm hanging out with her (I know I'm not the only one... .she has everyone else when she doesn't have me then when she has me and she's open she puts everyone else on hold, except the boy of the moment and acquaintances she maintains status quo with).  It's like she can't stand to be alone with me since she might feel something.  She said once I got under her skin and I said in response, that what it means to care about someone, you give a ___.  I don't think she's used to that feeling and I think it scares her.  That she usually puts people on kind of a timer and expects them to give up and walk out, but I don't, repeatedly and then it's like she doesn't know where to put me in her life because I keep showing up.

I miss mine's hugs too, even just her voice sometimes when she cuts off contact... .  It sucks to think she gets mad at herself for hurting me, and feels shame thinking that she is a horrible person, and that just a text or her picking up the phone she can find out I don't hate her; I am still here and I don't actually think any of the awful things she says to herself in her head.

BFF has anemia, Epstein Barr, and back problems.  I have seen it kick in to where she overworks herself and her body just kind of expires, she gets sick, usually something that needs antibiotics and she is run down.  Usually her back goes into horrible pain spasms and she had to get a shot last time in the emergency room just to get through the day.  She'll lay her head in my lap sometimes during times when she gets run down and even if she's just gotten up not long before she'll just pass out in minutes.  I've gotten the I'm sick excuse very last minute for plans before, and sometimes I think it is an excuse and not real.  Plus I've seen her sick... .even when she had to get that shot in her back (worse than any sick she's had) she still showed up to work the next day.  So telling me she's sick and can't xyz, just sounds like crap when she can still do whatever with someone else.

BFF will either want me there to tell me everything and validate her thoughts/feelings/decisions, or she wants me out of everything and there's radio silence.  She does the same thing with her family but they are usually still in her life so it just fades away; usually faster than with me.  When I volunteered where she worked she would have to deal with me and her little annoyances or blow ups melted away easier because I was still there when she needed to talk or cry.  Now that she is somewhere else and never comes up to see us, the distance is much harder because it's not like I'll walk around the corner and run into her I have to deliberately stop by.  The thing is even if she seems annoyed in just  one minute she can wrap her arms around me, pull me in and seemingly not want me to leave.

Wanting peace of mind is so frustrating... .for me it's not just on her status, but her daughters (especially trying to keep my daughter and her daughter's relationship intact which becomes impossible when she practically withholds her from us).  Also, it's wish I knew sometimes what goes on in the heads of everyone around her.  Sometimes I think she must go on about how "awful" I am when she's mad and then I show up to something she invites me to and I feel like they all look at me probably going "what's she doing here?"  I have learned to stop asking that question since I have seen her do it with them over and over... .I hate my mother/brother/friend, they are a horrible mother/brother (horrible person is the phrase she uses on herself), and I never want to see them again.  Cut to 2 weeks later when she needs her mom to watch her daughter or wants to hang out with her brother and her friends for fun or to not feel lonesome.  So I don't even question it anymore, I try not to agree when she talks this way about them, but I assume for those who don't know the whole story between us they must be confused over and over.  I've also realized that sometimes she doesn't say anything which can have the same effect.  For instance making plans with me then not showing up then I call and call to see where she is and she ignores the calls.  To them she is probably saying "sigh, why is she again?"  To me I'm like, "where are you, you told me to to met you... ."  To them, "what a crazy stalker" because she left out the part where she told me to meet her, and/or call repeatedly when she doesn't answer because when she is asleep she really doesn't hear the phone.   

So true about the commercials... .I think with DBT they can stop or at least learn to lessen their symptoms, but with a diagnosis even if they aren't ready to start working on it they can move towards it.  With a dismissal of a diagnosis or denial of symptoms they will only get farther and farther from what they want, to feel "normal" and to have "normal relationships" where they don't lash out at people they love and those same people don't run for the hills when they get treated like crap.

It is just like a script ever since the one big thing in her life changed... .she's been married almost 5 years (to a man who has cheated on her with at least 3 women), and when he filed for divorce and she moved out it all started spiraling.  It's like the BPD switch flipped into overdrive.  Then she got on the merry go round of friend, boy, job, friend, boy, job, friend, boy, job... .who knows when she'll get off, but most definitely not until she believes she deserves to.

[SummerStorm]

SummerStorm,

It definitely seems like we have a lot in common.  I am pansexual and polyamorous (and yes also married to a man, who btw is straight and monogamous), but have never had sex with bff although we have made out once or twice; we have kissed and used to greet each other (not in mixed company) with a peck on the lips. 

I wonder if any pwBPD have tried polyamory?  Though I suppose that probably still wouldn't solve the problem, as they would just become attached and idealize every partner and then devalue every partner and just have no idea what's going on.  Maybe it would fry their brains and reset everything, . 

It's very weird.  I'm still wondering if my ffBPD is really, truly bisexual, both physically and emotionally.  Her stepsister is, so part of me wonders if she is mirroring her.  Mine is out but never mentioned it to me until the day I came out to her.  She later told me that she knew for a long time that I'm bisexual, so it just seems so weird that never mentioned her ex-girlfriend or anything prior to me coming out to her.  She mirrored me so much after I came out, and I always had my doubts about her sexuality.  It was like, as soon as we had sex, she was just super into LGBT issues.  My bisexuality doesn't ebb and flow based on who I'm around or who I'm interested in at the time.  My mom even said to me, "Are you sure she likes women?"  I think she is sexually attracted to women, but I think that's as far as it goes.  When she talked about female celebrities, it was always, "She's got a nice ass" or "Her boobs are awesome."  With male celebrities, it was, "He's so handsome."

I don't have a problem with it in theory, but if that's the case, she should really stop telling women that she wants to marry them, !

It really was like she was studying everything about being in a same-sex relationship and about LGBT issues in general.  She's only ever dated one other woman, and that was a few years ago.  She was actually consulting Cosmo's article on lesbian sex, which I thought was hilarious because the article is terrible.  She actually had no idea that pansexuality exists and what it is, until she read a Buzzfeed article on it.  She was all happy with herself that she could tell me what it was and how it's different from bisexuality.       

   

I know she does still take her adderall, but usually only when she feels she needs it; basically as a way to get out of bed and get herself moving.

Mine looks at drugs as a free for all.  She once told me that, if I wanted them, she would give me an adderall to help me stay awake for an overnight event at work and a sleeping pill to help me sleep the next day.  I was like,  .  I don't even like taking ibuprofen, and she wanted to give me prescription pills.

   

Wounded create is a great way to put it, and I think you're right about fooling the therapist but I don't believe it is intentional (nor the lies).  I too was at a point in my life where I felt I had to lie to survive, it was easier than the alternative, or so it seemed. 

I do understand some of her lies, but there are others that are just ridiculous.  Instead of telling people that she had a cold sore, she wore a band-aid on her face and told everyone that her rabbit attacked her and that she almost needed stitches.  She lied just to lie.  The lupus lie really made me mad because I felt so bad for her.

I do understand some of her lies that were for survival.  It's hard to make friends or even have people talk to you if they know that you throw things, hit romantic partners, and leave people for no reason.  So, she told people that her boyfriends threw things, hit her, and left her for no reason.  There's a difference between re-writing history to eliminate shame and lying just to see if you can get away with it. 

She also felt good knowing she had a name for it, instead of just being a horrible person (her words).  Now he's crushed all that and she may never again be open to the idea of it as a possible diagnosis; he may have ruined her treatment forever.   :'(

That's very unfortunate.  A BPD diagnosis is tough, and it's hard to get pwBPD to go to/stay in therapy, so the fact that your friend had actually started working on DBT skills on her own is huge.  And now, to be told that she doesn't have BPD?  That's just ridiculous to me, that a therapist would tell a patient who thinks she has BPD that she doesn't. 

She escapes me by not answering the phone, canceling plans, and using her phone nonstop while I'm hanging out with her

These three things drove me nuts.  After she canceled plans with me for an entire weekend, she wouldn't reply to my texts.  So, I tried calling, and she didn't answer.  This is someone who has her phone on or near her 24/7, so she was clearly ignoring me.  And she was always on her phone.  She does it with other people, too.  When she was visiting her mom in April, she was texting me while watching a movie with her family.  I went to the movie theatre with her once, and she kept getting her phone out.  It was ridiculous. 

I've gotten the I'm sick excuse very last minute for plans before, and sometimes I think it is an excuse and not real.  Plus I've seen her sick... .even when she had to get that shot in her back (worse than any sick she's had) she still showed up to work the next day.  So telling me she's sick and can't xyz, just sounds like crap when she can still do whatever with someone else.

Way back in February, right after we became friends, she asked me to go to the school musical with her.  We decided on Sunday because I couldn't go Friday and it was supposed to snow Saturday.  Friday afternoon, she asked me if I could go that night instead.  I said no and asked her if we were still on for Sunday.  She said we were, so I told her we should buy tickets before leaving work.  She quickly said, "Oh, we can just buy them on Sunday."  I almost said, "If you are going to cancel, just tell me."  As we were leaving, she said she was starting to not feel well.  On Sunday, I heard nothing from her until I finally texted her and asked if she was going.  She told me that she was still sick, and I ended up going by myself.  I questioned her about it once, probably a month or two later, and she quickly changed the subject.  What I think happened is that her boyfriend asked her to spend the weekend with him, and she decided she'd rather be with him.

So true about the commercials... .I think with DBT they can stop or at least learn to lessen their symptoms, but with a diagnosis even if they aren't ready to start working on it they can move towards it. 

I worry so much about her just giving up.  She really does want to get better, but I think she wants it to happen right now.  She wants to take a pill for it like she does everything else and just move on.  At the hospital, I asked her what all she would have to do, and she was like, "I'm on a new medicine.  It will help me be more consistent.  And I have to see a therapist."  I honestly think that she thought the medication would solve the problems she has with abandonment/engulfment, impulsive behaviors, etc.  From what I understand, it basically just evens her mood out a bit, so that she doesn't rage as much. 

It is just like a script ever since the one big thing in her life changed... .she's been married almost 5 years (to a man who has cheated on her with at least 3 women), and when he filed for divorce and she moved out it all started spiraling.  It's like the BPD switch flipped into overdrive.  Then she got on the merry go round of friend, boy, job, friend, boy, job, friend, boy, job... .who knows when she'll get off, but most definitely not until she believes she deserves to.

Yeah, my ffBPD's BPD switch flipped during her senior year of high school.  After she was sexually abused by her stepfather for several years, she and her mother moved, and her mother got remarried.  She had to attend a new school, she developed bulimia, and she was bullied.  When she turned 18, she got her boyfriend's initials tattooed on her lower abdomen.  Then, they broke up, and everything just went to hell.  She got into marijuana and then cocaine, and during her first semester of college, she attempted suicide.  She moved back home (she wasn't that far away but had decided to live on campus), took a semester off, and then changed her major and resumed classes at a new college.  A few years later, her mom and stepdad moved to a different state, and she just started hopping from place to place, living with whomever would take her in.  I would say the move really messed her up because, even though she and her mom didn't always get along, she could always go back to her.  I still think it's really stupid that she's moving across the country with her boyfriend, but I am glad that she's moving to where her mom is.   

[DearBFF]

I wonder if any pwBPD have tried polyamory?  Though I suppose that probably still wouldn't solve the problem, as they would just become attached and idealize every partner and then devalue every partner and just have no idea what's going on.  Maybe it would fry their brains and reset everything, .

One can only hope!  Honestly I think if the people involved were truly dedicated to the pwBPD and acted in unison using the same tools to interact with them, over time that alone might help; but probably not without therapy as well and the BPD learning DBT skills.

I think she is sexually attracted to women, but I think that's as far as it goes.

So you think she'd like to have a playmate of sorts, but would never truly want to call her a girlfriend (for real) and build a life with her?  I  would guess when your BPD tells a woman she wants to marry her she truly means it, then she actually thinks about it and it terrifies her.  Then she meets someone else and the warm fuzzy feeling around how perfect it is and how great they make her feel surface, and she means it all over again; until she doesn't anymore.  ... . I have a feeling bff is also sexually attracted to women and just very ashamed of it.  Shame seems to be the driving force behind BPD.  Shame of emotions (having them at all in some cases), shame of lack of emotions in some situations because of learning to stuff them, shame of outbursts from stuffing emotions, shame of thoughts and behaviors that others can't seem to wrap their heads around.  In a way it's like they are being rejected at every turn!  Nothing they can do is right, which is an interesting though since we (the ones who love them) often feel this exact way ourselves.

Mirroring... .I haven't come across that much in my BPD books so far.  So basically they take on traits, I guess having to do with lack of sense of self?  I can see this... .sometimes thing come out of bff's mouth and I'm just standing there thinking "Who the hell are you right now?"  Of course I don't say that, ... .Also, what she says she wants and feels seems to change on an almost daily basis.  It's so hard to follow since sometimes it's like she manufactures emotions based on what she think she should be showing others to be "normal" but they don't mesh well because underneath is the complete opposite.  I watched one BPD youtuber say she kept a notebook by her bed so that she could write down things that were true to her because she realized through talking to her therapist that so much of what she thought she liked was just a reflection of her friends/family's likes and dislikes.  She said she'd wake up in the middle of the night excited and turn her light on, grabbing her notebook to write things like a food she realized she truly liked all on her own not because of someone else.  She also wore a necklace that she had picked out herself and she said none of her friends had one like it, she was proud of that fact.  It's such an odd thought to think you would truly not know what was you and what was someone else.  I can thinking back to high school and earlier I guess when I would go along with stuff to belong with my friends.  Then I wanted to be my own person though and that sense was so strong I could completely disagree to a friend's face and be totally ok with it.  For a BPD though it seems like that's impossible, unless of course they are disagreeing with you to agree with someone higher on their pedestal at the moment; then it's ok.

Mine looks at drugs as a free for all.

I think at one point they probably were for mine too.  I know her exbff was into more than just pot and when she told me she sort of downplayed it like oh poor her, needs to get her life straight kind of thing.  It didn't occur to me though that she was probably right there with her at least half of the time.  I know she used to abuse prescription drugs, she used to have access to a lot for her back pain; she'd just check out.  Not sure how she was mothering then, it's hard to comprehend.  Thing is I have seen her take a handful of carefully chosen prescription meds now (not prescribed for her out of her parent's medicine cabinet), and I barely notice an effect.  It's like they just don't work anymore.  I do notice when she's taken her adderall, she is upbeat, things upset her a bit less and she can get herself going instead of just parking it on the couch and lamenting "what are we going to do today?"  Yet, I think the DBT skills would be way more helpful in the long run, even though I can see the benefits of her sometimes needing a bit of a pick me up to go to work, take care of her daughter, or just get stuff down around the house.

Instead of telling people that she had a cold sore, she wore a band-aid on her face and told everyone that her rabbit attacked her and that she almost needed stitches.  She lied just to lie.  The lupus lie really made me mad because I felt so bad for her.

Bff was also an awful liar, sometimes I'd be watching her tell a lie just thinking to myself "they aren't that stupid, are they?"  ... .I'd even say sometimes, "It would be really easy to disprove that."  Which I realize is so not helpful, helping her do it in a way, but I was just dumbfounded at how she didn't think things through.  The bunny story is probably safer to her than thinking people will shun her thinking she has herpes or something; to her probably the lesser of two evils.  Bunny culprit or walking into a bush or roses, fill in the blank she probably didn't care at the time.  I would imagine the lupus one would be immensely frustrating, but I wonder if she truly convinced herself it that's what she had.  The feeling tired all the time, etc... .It could be like she talked herself into it, then in order to feel like that was acceptable she invented an actual diagnosis, that even she over time probably came to believe.

A BPD diagnosis is tough, and it's hard to get pwBPD to go to/stay in therapy, so the fact that your friend had actually started working on DBT skills on her own is huge.  And now, to be told that she doesn't have BPD?  That's just ridiculous to me, that a therapist would tell a patient who thinks she has BPD that she doesn't.

I just keep going back to the part in the books I read that said one of the reasons to absolutely not tell them is that they won't believe you, and think you're crazy.  Also, it says not to tell anyone else they know because they too will think you are crazy and not believe you.  Things had gone so well with her not only believing me but taking steps to work on things herself that I had forgotten all about it, until her therapist didn't believe she could possibly have it,  !  Then I remembered... .oh yea!  I wonder if after he was thinking, crap... .what if that's right?  However, with whatever way she portrayed me he probably wouldn't take anything I said to heart, so it may not cross his mind at all.  Plus I suppose if I was a psychiatrist (and almost in the medical field has to have a bit of a god complex or big ego to save people which is their job), I would probably be devastated if some lay person saw something I didn't.  Not to mention he's seen her for years so if it was me I'd be upset at myself.  Who knows though... .Maybe I never will.

I agree that her working it herself was HUGE!  I was so proud of her, doing it herself, I think I even may have though she just might not mention it to her psychiatrist; that she had it handled or would want to get farther along.  Then when she got upset and me and started painting me black it was more fuel she could add to the fire to get her psychiatrist to side with her and he helped her push me right out; also she doesn't have to look like the bad guy this time as she's only following her doctor's advice.

has her phone on or near her 24/7, so she was clearly ignoring me.  And she was always on her phone.

Exactly!  I could usually tell how stressed she was internally since she rarely talked about it outside by how much she was on her phone; especially with me.  When she was good she would point out her being on her phone, "I'm sorry I'm being so rude right now, just let me finish this really quick, I'll be one more minute."  She'd finish answering an email or text, whatever, set it down and rarely pick it back up the rest of the evening.  Mind you this has probably happened all of like twice.  Otherwise it's like I'm talking to the back of her phone (while she is constantly texting someone else) and sometimes I'll repeat something I said and she was completely not listening (hard to listen when you're having a conversation with someone else).  Unfortunately I have this problem with hubby too... .he is constantly on his computer.  I spend more time talking to the back of his head than I do to his face.  It's immensely frustrating... .

she'd rather be with him.

I often feel this as well... .On the afternoon of my daughter's birthday she called out of the blue, it was so sweet she asked to talk to munchkin and wished her a happy birthday and sang to her.  Then she said her lessons were cancelled for the afternoon and she was thinking of coming to visit with her daughter.  I told her my munchkin would love that and that they could stay for dinner if they wanted, hubby was home and could cook stir fry (it's truly yummy), and the girls could play with the presents we got munchkin.  She said that sounds great but that she had to double check with her boss that she didn't need her for anything else and then they'd leave.  She said she'd call back in a half an hour.  2 hours went by and I heard nothing... .then I finally got in touch and she said she got distracted and that she would be down later.  The time she gave later came and went so I checked in again.  She told me that her daughter had been awful all afternoon/evening and that she was now in time out (crying for my daughter), and that she had told her she couldn't go of she kept acting out.  Apparently she now had to carry that out by not bringing her over.  On one hand... .sure don't go back on a punishment on the other did the punishment really have to be spending time with my daughter on her birthday?  She didn't do anything wrong... .not to mention when she called it was afternoon and her daughter seemingly would have already been acting out, which she didn't mention.  Also, when I got in touch 2 hours later no mention again... . Mind you she probably was acting out as she'd been up since before 6am and spent the whole morning helping at a farm while her mom worked.  The thing is she was probably exhausted not trying to act out, be brat, and a pain in her mom's behind, but she was a tired child who just needed a nap.  Apparently after crying in time out asking repeatedly for my daughter, she fell asleep right there on the floor.  I have a really hard time believing that she then spent the night at home alone instead of calling over boy and/or his family to hang out with her since her munchkin no longer needed looking after.  It almost makes me feel like she was crossing her fingers that she would act up and she could make the punishment not going because she didn't want to, it's so frustrating that she called to set it up in the first place.  We had no plans and weren't expecting her at all, then she was suddenly coming and munchkin was so happy... .why do that to her?

I worry so much about her just giving up.

Mine too... .I've accepted that if she ever does there would have been nothing I could truly do to have changed it.  I can only be there, nothing else, and I can't be there if she pushes me away (even if I'm only a phone call away).  That's one reason I was so excited she let me go to pick up a script at her psychiatrist about a few weeks ago.  I had said before that I wished sometimes I had his information that if I was ever truly worried about her I could call him for help.  Now, of course I don't see what good it would do since he thinks I'm a loon, , but I'm glad to have it anyway.

[DearBFF]

Had to post this separate... .it was too long, 

Plus I kind of went off on a tangent... .

she got her boyfriend's initials tattooed on her lower abdomen.

My bff has her husband's name tattooed on her ring finger, and he has hers (although she says she's always wondered if he truly thinks of it as her name or the name of his affair before they even got married, they have the same name).  When she had extra money she got some tattoo removal procedures, I think 3 total, but it looks like it will take 10 or something.  It's kind of blurry now and I can barely read it, but I think anyone who doesn't know what it says would have trouble.  She also had a tattoo of his sports team she just had covered up.

I very much want to get a tattoo with her, but I'm not sure what we'd get.  I have always wanted one, but decided that I might change my mind about it later; plus I HATE pain.  The thing is I realized if I got one with someone then it would always remind me of them, no matter what happened and that I would always cherish it.  The thing is I had that conversation with my oldest friend a guy from high school (who I just reconnected with at the time), who has I have no idea what but he literally sabotages things and causes drama.  So before I knew it he brought it up with his fiancee and it turned into some craziness where he had convinced her I wanted him back or something.  She told me her never wanted to be my friend again he just didn't want to hurt me.  So I ditched the idea after that... .and hadn't thought about it again.  Thing is I've always loved tattoos and truly want one... .then I realized watching LikeWowLala (a fun youtuber; LOVE her chest tattoo a tribute to her baby brother) when she mentioned she has all black tattoos with no shading.  I realized that's what I like... .while I find the coloring beautiful and tattoos, I'm so picky I'd probably change my mind about that or want to always match my outfit to it, etc, because I'm weird like that, ... . Then I read the meaning behind the semicolon tattoo and I realized I want one... .It has true meaning to me from growing up and now, I would feel it would connect me to a community I feel connected to even though I'm not officially in it (since I don't do any regular therapy, but I constantly work on myself), and there was also the connection with bff.  I mentioned it to her as she talked about tattoos with me after showing me her new coverup and describing the new addition she wants added to it.  She said we could go together sometime and she would get one around her coverup.  Then she booted me within a week... .

Thing is it hasn't changed my mind about getting it like it did with the boy from high school, and I almost want it more than ever.  I almost want to get it so she can see and she would be upset I didn't get it with her, but the thing is I want it for myself and while I'd love to go with her it's not my fault if she checks out of my life and misses things.  To me it would like always be a reminder of that as well, not holding off doing something because someone I want to be there has decided not to be.  I don't want to hurt her though and I know it will, but again isn't that just catering to BPD craziness instead of making myself happy.  I will always love it, and it will remind me of so many things, and if I ever sank to a place where I was worried I would do something stupid (which I don't see happening but it's always a possibility for any of us who have been there), I would see it.  I plan on getting it on my wrist of my right hand, or maybe below my thumb there.  Somewhere I can see it everyday and somewhere I can see it if I ever picked up anything to hurt myself (I've never been a cutter but if I ever wanted to take myself out of this world I'd use something with my right hand), so I truly feel it would stop me.  It'd be like a last ditch effort insurance policy and it would bring me joy to look at it everyday to feel a connection to others who have been there, who are there now, who fear being there again, etc... .and it would give me hope that like me any of them can one day be in a place where it's a reminder of where they've been and where they're going and not something to feel bad or ashamed about.    So what am I, nutty about that?  

[Beach_Babe]

Nah, not nutty. Just highly empathetic ♡  A good thing!

[Klo]

I have struggled with several BPD traits for most of my life, and my former therapist would not give me a diagnosis because I was covert. She explained that the diagnosis is reserved for people who cannot control their behavior and thus frequently/severely lash out and/or wind up in the hospital. I've always been very covert. I've always hidden my self-harming, I internalize my anger, I self-destruct quietly when abandoned (real or imagined), I don't openly discuss suicidal feelings with people in my life, I try to mirror people well enough in social situations that it allows me to go unnoticed and somehow be social without having an actual social circle, and I've managed to stay out of the hospital through psychosis, overdoses, substance problems and even homelessness. I've stayed off the system's radar and avoided law enforcement. So in the end my level of suffering and the symptoms I experience did not actually matter. All that mattered was how much of a troublemaker I was/wasn't, according to my therapist. The message it gave me was that if I wanted to be taken seriously and given specialized treatment, then I needed to start attempting suicide or getting into fights or otherwise causing a ruckus. Which honestly floored me, since I thought one of the biggest things when recovering from BPD is learning healthy ways to get needs met instead of being attention-seeking or manipulative.

[DearBFF]

Klo 

So sorry to hear about your struggles... .while I know the mental health field is there to help us all, sometimes it can just be downright frustrating to deal with them and their backwards way to of thinking.

I believe I have probably gone through every BPD symptom myself in my life, only I never had more than one or two at a time and I of course had never heard of Borderline Personality Disorder.  Now reading all of this info for bff (and myself, and because I'm weird and LOVE research) I have had so many "AHA" moments!

One resource I have found helpful are Kati Morton's videos on borderline as well as just in general, she is a therapist and youtuber.

You can watch her Quiet Borderline video, which sounds like what you have described yourself as at the link below.

https://youtu.be/E56S5cWSvuw

If you feel you may still have some nagging borderline issues that cause you problems you might look into a different therapist, of search for some online resources.  I'm enjoying learning about DBT through my research and even read this DBT book before I gifted it to BFF.  Before her psychiatrist told her she does not have BPD (which I wholeheartedly disagree with), she told me it was helping her a great deal.

www.amzn.com/1572245131

I too believe I acted mostly internally which is why it never did major damage to my relationships, but there were a few people who did cite clinginess as the reason they left/distanced themselves from me but I believe that was also a bit of codependence.  Learning about BPD and learning dbt really helps put it all in perspective and I'm so glad to have come across the information.     I hope you find what I've mentioned helpful and take care! 

[Klo]

Klo 

So sorry to hear about your struggles... .while I know the mental health field is there to help us all, sometimes it can just be downright frustrating to deal with them and their backwards way to of thinking.

I believe I have probably gone through every BPD symptom myself in my life, only I never had more than one or two at a time and I of course had never heard of Borderline Personality Disorder.  Now reading all of this info for bff (and myself, and because I'm weird and LOVE research) I have had so many "AHA" moments!

One resource I have found helpful are Kati Morton's videos on borderline as well as just in general, she is a therapist and youtuber.

You can watch her Quiet Borderline video, which sounds like what you have described yourself as at the link below.

https://youtu.be/E56S5cWSvuw

If you feel you may still have some nagging borderline issues that cause you problems you might look into a different therapist, of search for some online resources.  I'm enjoying learning about DBT through my research and even read this DBT book before I gifted it to BFF.  Before her psychiatrist told her she does not have BPD (which I wholeheartedly disagree with), she told me it was helping her a great deal.

www.amzn.com/1572245131

I too believe I acted mostly internally which is why it never did major damage to my relationships, but there were a few people who did cite clinginess as the reason they left/distanced themselves from me but I believe that was also a bit of codependence.  Learning about BPD and learning dbt really helps put it all in perspective and I'm so glad to have come across the information.     I hope you find what I've mentioned helpful and take care! 

Thank you for the links, I will check out the youtube video. I think the reason I am covert is because I have a "queen" BPD mother, and my father was AsPD. So it was like I developed BPD but was also traumatized into submission and secrecy. So I think I'm more like a waif, very covert and internalized and self-sabotaging. I definitely want to try DBT someday if I can afford it.

[DearBFF]

What you say makes sense, Klo.  It must have been tough growing up with them trying to get by the best you could.  What is AsPD, I am not familiar with that term?

I don't know about BPD in my family; I was adopted so I know it's not genetics that I ended up with some traits.  In reading descriptions though my father sounds very BPD, and my mother probably suffers from depression.  I was never good enough so I'd set up everything to "look good" so as not to upset anyone.  At school I once had a girl come up to me and say she thought I should be a cheerleader because I was always walking around with a smile on my face, and she thought I must have a ton of friends.  What she didn't know and nobody really saw is that I went home and cried every day.  It's so hard explaining to people who don't see.  I learned I had to make everyone else happy and that when I did something that wasn't accepted I could just lie about it and then be accepted so that's how I got along with my parents.  I'd just be me where I could then come home and be what they wanted, but it was never good enough.  From the outside though it seems everyone thought we were a perfect family.

One of my main frustrations now with bff is that she sees my life and feels like it must be perfect, and I have no stress, etc... .but she doesn't know, mostly because she has put herself in a place to not learn about my life or give me time to discuss my problems so she just thinks everything is great.  Or she gets into competition mode where her problems are so much worse, basically making me feel bad or guilty.  She doesn't see we all have our own problems, we could support one another instead, it's not a competition. 

I tried looking up DBT for my friend and it's really hard to find someone, I couldn't find anything in our area.  Definitely check out the books because they are great, your library may have them.  If not you can probably find one at your local Barnes and Noble so you can flip through it to see if you'd find it helpful.

Take care