Healing once they're doing better?

[thisagain]

Hi everyone,

I'm so relieved to have found this board! It's really helped me understand and deal with my girlfriend's behavior. She is undiagnosed and insists it's all PTSD, but the things I read on this board have clicked with me much better than any of the resources for partners of people with PTSD, so I think yall will have more insight.

Sorry for the long post and thanks in advance to those who hang in there

We've been together for 2 years. Some push-pull was always there, like she said I love you after two months and then a week later told me I couldn't say it anymore because it scared her. The same thing happened with talking about marriage (which she started the same day as I love you, two months after we met!), initiating all of the kissing and sex and then almost immediately not wanting to have sex anymore because it scared her, etc. The raging, silent treatment, and other more intense symptoms started maybe six months after we got together. The highlights include moving out of our apartment because she said she needed space--but then wanting me to stay every night in her new place with her. Also telling me she wanted an open relationship because her sexual needs weren't being met, after we'd had sex maybe 7 times in the past year (she was sexually abused and sometimes admits that's the problem, but also has given many ridiculous and hurtful reasons why it's actually my fault). And relatedly, repeatedly deciding she was not a lesbian anymore (because she can't handle me wanting her to snuggle and be emotionally present after sex, and thinks sex with men is easier) but then changing her mind within a few days or once she realized that meant I would leave her.

For the whole time she's been in turmoil with her work, her family, etc, often because of splitting and avoidance. And whatever she had going on, she used that as an excuse to rage at me and neglect me. Along with the specific incidents above there was also just a pattern of her raging at me and then shutting me out because she couldn't face up to having hurt me. And neglecting my needs (to the point of throwing a tantrum while I was very ill in the emergency room) because she was overwhelmed by whatever she had going on. The excuses varied but there was always something. Before I learned to just accept it we'd have long fights/standoffs where she'd dysregulate and start to run off, I'd beg her to stay and connect and talk to me, she'd rage, I'd cry, she'd rage at me for crying, and so on.

If I told her she'd hurt me, she'd either rage at me (like how dare you expect me to apologize for yelling at you when my parents abused me, I'm unemployed, I'm homeless except for depending on you, give me a break!), or she'd shut down (like dissociative, wailing, not responsive to what's going on around her, not able to speak) followed by painting herself black (telling me she's bad, evil, shouldn't exist, etc). Or alternating, both raging at me and at herself. Also this whole time she'd been in therapy for PTSD but it was basically her painting me black to the therapist, mistaking the therapist's validation for agreement that I'm actually that bad, etc.

Early this year she was really out of control, had somewhat of a wake-up call, and started medication and a new therapist. Of course she broke all her promises about getting into DBT, letting me be involved with her therapy, etc. But she has started doing much better especially over the past month or so. She's been there for me through a stressful time even when she has her own stuff going on, she's improving at telling me what's really bothering her instead of silent treatment or rage, and she hasn't raged over nothing recently. It's not perfect, but much better. I was on the brink of breaking up with her before (when she was doing really badly I had her move out and we had much less contact for a few months), but now that she's been doing better I really do see a future with her. There are lots of good things about our relationship and good things I see in her, apart from the initial intense connection and painting me white which really just makes me nervous these days.



My problem is that I am still really hurting from all of the abuse over the past two years. I'm still afraid to tell her when I'm hurt or scared about something, because I'm afraid she'll either rage or shut down and become self-loathing/suicidal. Even now if I tell her I'm scared or hurt because of how she treated me in the past, it's very rare that she can listen and understand it for what it is instead of dysregulating. Usually she'll start putting herself down sometimes starts sounding suicidal, especially if she has other stressors or other reasons she's feeling bad about herself. Or she rages or argues with me over how it was soo long ago and she's doing better, it's not fair that I don't appreciate all the work she's done, etc. Because she still sees it as all-or-nothing, black-or-white, she can't grasp that I see her doing better and appreciate her effort but I'm also still hurt and scared. I have some post-traumatic symptoms like nightmares from how she treated me, and when I tried to tell her that (hoping it'd make her see why I can't just move forward like nothing happened), she's now alternating between self-loathing and rage about how awful it is that I still think she's a monster after she worked so hard.

Sometimes I try to say it with SET or otherwise surround it with reassurance that I don't think she's a bad person, she was just sick and needed treatment, she's been wonderful lately, that's not "who she is," etc. But I could say all of that 100 times and then follow it with one "when you do X I get scared/hurt because it reminds me of when you used to Y," and that sends her into dysregulation. I've seen people on here say that they do SET without the T, but I think that's really missing the whole point of SET which is to be able to tell her the truth and have her hear me.

Since I'm so afraid to talk to her about things, sometimes I'll end up voicing my pain in a passive-aggressive way and/or front of our friends (because I feel "safety in numbers" or she won't totally lose control if someone else is around). I know that's not the right way to do things, and I'd really rather just talk to her about what's bothering me. Generally in life I used to have a lot of trouble saying what I needed, expressing when I was hurt, etc. My family was never receptive to things like that and so I always thought no one would care how I felt or whether they had hurt me. That is why my previous relationships didn't last very long, because I'd never say what I needed, but then I'd get resentful for not getting what I needed, stew for a while, then abruptly break up with them. I worked VERY hard on that problem with a therapist before I met my current girlfriend, and at first I worked very hard to tell my girlfriend what I needed and how I was feeling. She might have cared but she usually couldn't act like it, so now I feel myself falling back into the old pattern of not expressing it because I'm scared she won't care or she'll dysregulate. Which is really not healthy for me.

Also, after watching her self-sabotage her jobs and most of her family/friend relationships and then take it out on me, I really struggle with what to do when it looks like she's starting down the road toward causing problems in those areas. Sometimes I try to tell her that it seems like she's thinking in black and white (which the new therapist taught her about), being avoidant, or otherwise setting herself up to fail or be upset. But it comes across as trying to control her or tell her I know better about how to run her life. Really I'm just scared it's going to go badly and she's going to take it out on me, because the past two years (especially before I learned about boundaries and such) she's been dragging me along on the roller coaster and it hurt. I'd rather just tell her that but she won't hear me. And I don't think it's right to not be able to voice that kind of fear.

I feel like we could work through those messed-up dynamics, but it would really help if she would be more receptive and compassionate about how much she hurt me, so that I can express that hurt to her the right way and it won't come out another way. Do yall think that's possible? There have been a few times she's listened when I told her that, but mostly she shuts down or tries to tell me that we both hurt each other before. Or lately she's gotten even further into the splitting and says that I need more therapy because she thinks there's just something very wrong with me that has nothing to do with our relationship.

Is it possible to heal the relationship when she's incapable of really owning up to how she treated me? I don't consider painting herself black (I was so awful to you, I hate myself for it, you'd be better off if I was never born) to be owning up to it, especially when the painting-self-black leads to dysregulation that keeps her from truly listening to me and understanding the lasting effects it's had on me. Or am I supposed to move on and make a life with someone who abused me for two years without her ever understanding and apologizing? How do you do that?

Thanks for reading my rant and thanks in advance for any thoughts

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[lovers knot]

I just want you to know that I can relate to so many of your feelings here, my friend, and that you're definitely not alone. I'm also grateful for all of your comments in helping me deal with my own emotions in your responses, and I wanted to inform you that I read through this entire post here, and although I'm not able to respond with the expertise that so many others can/will, I just wanted to bump this thread up so that it doesn't sink too far down, because I think that you deserve a good response.

The board is usually a lot more active, so don't get discouraged if you've had no one to respond just yet, but someone will get to it.

Your girlfriend's behavior, intertwined with the complexities of your own previous experiences, etc., make for quite the maelstrom of intrigue! I say "intrigue" in the sense of it being interesting to me to read peoples' experiences and what they are going through, in the sense that I find myself learning from it all, but also feeling a deep love and compassion for people such as yourself that endure, battle, struggle, look for answers, and try to employ the various techniques and lessons that go along with being a Non.

To have been together with her for two years is something to applaud, in fact, even though you've both been through the ringer it seems. It's obvious that, even though she is committed (having been with you for two years), that she still battles with her emotions, and the fact that you've been given the silent treatment in the past, having raged at you (violently?), needing space, and moving out of you guys' apartment, speaks clearly of her fears, as is obviously known, but then she wanting you to say with her overnight in her new place, and so on. It's like the common, "Go away, but don't leave me!" scenario. It's a bit concerning about the "open relationship" idea that she proposed on you, as well as just "deciding" not to be a lesbian anymore.

The fact that she's been in turmoil with her work, family, etc., with her splitting/avoidance, and that she uses this to rage and neglect you (although as a way of getting you to 'chase' or become closer?). The intentional hurtful actions versus the abandonment factors because of not being able to face the reality of having hurt someone is something of a deep, complex and emotional swing that goes beyond my understanding, but is something that I'm compassionate about for you.

The fact that she is seeing a therapist and receiving medication is a good sign--is she still in therapy? What is your current status with her NOW? I remember my pwBPD telling me that "she's wanting to get therapy" (and even set it up to get therapy sessions, which I hope she will start soon--how would I know, right? I'm in ST Mode! Ha!), but once told me that she "doesn't believe in taking medications," so she's refused medication altogether, if it ever came to that, and gave me an explanation as to her reasons why. Anyway, I think it can benefit a person, depending on the person, but that's beside the point!

All of that to say, I often wonder if her comments about suicide are to make you feel sympathy/empathetic towards her even more-so, in a peculiar way? Obviously it is very, very concerning when one speaks about suicide, as I had a dear friend of mine once try to overdose right in front of me! She had all sorts of mental issues, had been "used and abused" by various men, and was totally down in the lowest part of the low that one can imagine. She even pulled me a hand-gun on me once! Long story, but it was nerve-wracking to say the least. I say she pulled it out on me--actually, she pulled it out, to SHOW ME that she had it, and that she could use it, mostly as a symbol for me to see that she had thoughts of suicide. She actually attempted suicide once in her parents' basement, but "the gun didn't go off." Thank God. She's now much better, after finding a man that loves her, and now has a little boy, although she wrote to me a few months back stating that she isn't happy, because she feels "stuck" while "her friends" are out "having fun" and she no longer has the liberation to do such things. On and on it goes... .

Not to ramble on, but I just want you to know that this is very serious stuff, but you obviously knew that, or else you wouldn't be so concerned and worried (and even anxious). The whole idea that she cannot grasp the idea of you seeing her doing better is another primary pointer, I've discovered, in their behavior patterns (at least some BPD's). They seek to be loved, but their seeking of the love tends to drive them away, even though they want it and often yearn for it. In your case, there seems to have been plenty of reciprocation of love. I am uncertain at this point if the Non's "love" for the pwBPD is different than the "love" that the pwBPD gives to their Non, because I've read speculations about this in different articles, about how the Non can become "suddenly madly in love" with their pwBPD, while the the pwBPD loves in a different way (I fell in love with mfwBPD, and she even said that she loved me back, but now there's a split, because perhaps she KNOWS that I'm good for her and could love her sacrificially, compassionately, selfLESSly and treat her right? but, secretly, I wonder if her mind is wired to WANT to feed off of drama from other people, like men, that would cause turbulence and stormy and rocky times for her, because this is what they "know best" and enjoy? It's kind of masochistic, in a way, but I'm also beginning to believe my mother has similar traits--she's always had husbands that were crappers, that treated her like crap, and I told her once, "You don't know how to pick 'em!" Ha! She agreed! but it's how she's wired, and I wonder if it's how certain women are wired, based on their childhood; seeking out these 'types' of men to be in relationship because they feed from the storminess, it fuels their inner-turmoil, and so on... .). I agree that pwBPD have the capacity to love deeply, this is not the issue, of course, but they're just wired differently.

Anyway, you wish that she could be "receptive and compassionate" and since this is something that you truly seek, I know how difficult it must be, my friend, that you cannot get it as you want. It's frustrating. I mean, I've never had to endure such emotional pain such as been giving the ST, which of course is a form of verbal abuse; just the sudden CUT-OFF, without a peep. It's shocking, and shattering, and at first, like lightning bolts through the very soul.

I think that the relationship is salvageable, but I really don't know how to answer some of your questions in ways that I think others can, but I do know that greater things have happened. You've used SET before, and this seems to have been a success, right? Is she still painting herself black? Are you also in the black right now, or what is the status as of when you read this?

I hope for the best, as always, and really really feel compassion for you in this case, for I know the turmoil that all of this can cause, and just know that there's people out here, like myself, and SO many, that can relate. I know that, for me, talking about these things with other people that "get it" has been HUGE for my heart, my psyche' and my overall wellness, in general.

Blessings to you!

[thisagain]

Thanks for the sympathy

We're together and she's mostly seeing me as maybe a light gray? I think my biggest problem now is that I get scared or upset when I'm reminded of some of the past blowups, and then that can come out in a way that hurts her, and then she isn't able to listen when I explain where it came from.

And also remembering to use the lessons even though she's seeming so normal! I really want to be able to just be hurt and say so, without going through all the steps, and still have her be able to stay connected with me and listen.

A few days ago she painted me black because of something her therapist said (the therapist is majorly duped about how severe her symptoms used to be, invited me to a session to give input on an unrelated issue, and apparently thought it was dismissive and controlling that I wanted to talk about things like dysregulation). So she was going to break up with me unless I got more therapy and admitted I had a problem with being condescending. She has a point about that sometimes, but my side of that is that it is really hard to transition from basically being the caregiver of a severely mentally ill person to being an equal partner. That's the kind of thing she can't hear.

After that she checked out and I've learned to just ignore her until she wants to re-connect, so I ignored her all day yesterday. And then today she reached out and was finally ready for a regular conversation where she told me in a non-aggressive way what I'd done that hurt her, I validated, and she actually listened when I pointed out that it was hypocritical of her to insist that I get therapy after breaking all her promises to me about therapy. So we had a really good talk and then she gets all "we belong together you're perfect for me please don't leave me," and I spent hours today convincing her I had no plans to break up with her.

It's been extra tough lately because we're moving later this month for school/work and will live around an hour apart. I'd say for the past couple months, the only major BPD symptom is abandonment fear manifested in begging me not to leave, asking why I'm still with her when she hurt me so much, etc. Other than that she's mostly functioned normally, except for a few episodes like a couple days ago.

[thisagain]

I think you're definitely right about their mind being wired to feed off of the interpersonal drama. It's their comfort zone. They don't know what to do with themselves in a normal relationship.

Plus I think they get more afraid of the close relationship when there isn't a lot of drama, ST, breakup threats, etc. The worst things in my relationship (like hey I'm not a lesbian anymore and need to go sleep with men) happened right after some of the best times. Almost like things were doing well, that scared her, and so she had some twisted need to ruin the closeness and bring things back to her drama-filled comfort zone.

[thisagain]

  Anyone out there? I'm sorry for writing a novel, I tried to go back and condense it but couldn't find the edit button.

If someone insists they don't have BPD, do yall think it's disrespectful or somehow denying them dignity or something to take refuge in this forum and learning about BPD?

It helps me so much, but at the same time, I know she wouldn't want to be in a relationship with someone who thought she had BPD. On top of the usual denial, she thinks that her abusive mother had BPD. So she often will spontaneously start trying to convince me she doesn't have BPD, and gets very insulted if I don't enthusiastically agree with her. She would be really deeply insulted to know that I interpret her behavior this way.

Today she went trolling on a facebook group, picked a huge fight, and one of the commenters said she seemed like she had BPD. I tried to just validate when she ranted about it, and stay out of the drama. But it felt good to know that her recent behavior toward me is part of a larger pattern of dysregulation, and that other people see it. I wish her therapist would see it 

[ptilda]

First, in response to your question of how to deal, you need an outlet. That can be this forum, a prayer group, support group, therapist, or any combination. I made a mistake of talking to too many people ALL the time about my frustrations before I made the BPD connection, and it strained some of my personal relationships as well as caused some problems with his friends and family that I maybe foolishly confided my frustrations to and they told him.

As far as going beind her back to be here, absolutely not a problem. You have nothing to be ashamed of. She might be angry about it if she finds out, so don't tell her! But see of you can talk to her therapist and mention your concerns about BPD. If not, know that the advice here is viable for a wife range of disorders in one way or another. I made the mistake of telling my husband I think he has mental illness before I educated myself. Outbursts bring out some stupid stuff! I made mistakes, but this forum was one of my best choices yet.

[ptilda]

One more thing, consider writing a shorter post with one or two questions and a summary of the situation for those who might be intimidated by so much text. I read the first half and skimmed the last half. You can always clarify later. I'm finding that those who post most consistently keep pretty close track of who is who. And they can ask questions to clarify when needed.

[thisagain]

Thanks ptilda

I have had therapy as an outlet, but I'm moving and starting a full-time job so not sure if I'll be able to fit it in. And I still feel like I need some acknowledgement and validation of my feelings from her. It feels like abuse to let her treat me that badly and blame me for it or never really acknowledge it.

[lovers knot]

I'm glad that you were able to receive some responses on this topic, sir!

[lovers knot]

I think you're definitely right about their mind being wired to feed off of the interpersonal drama. It's their comfort zone. They don't know what to do with themselves in a normal relationship.

Plus I think they get more afraid of the close relationship when there isn't a lot of drama, ST, breakup threats, etc. The worst things in my relationship (like hey I'm not a lesbian anymore and need to go sleep with men) happened right after some of the best times. Almost like things were doing well, that scared her, and so she had some twisted need to ruin the closeness and bring things back to her drama-filled comfort zone.

I agree 100% with this. It seems like if they know that someone could be "good" for them, or truly loves them with all of their soul, and wouldn't ever do anything to harm them, etc., etc., etc., it almost seems like many pwBPD find this to be too peaceful, too calm, and, like you said, not drama-filled and chaotic.

I remembered that my friend with BPD also told me that she was involved in a relationship with a man for 8 years, which I mathematically concluded, after pondering the timelines she's given me of her life, and other things, that she was 19 years old or so when it started, and it lasted until she was 27 (she just turned 29 on the 7th of August, of which I also sent her greetings, but she has disregarded and ignored). I don't really know the details of this relationship, but 8 years is a long time!

Which had me thinking: if she's "afraid of intimacy," it seems odd to me that being in this relationship for 8 years contradicts such a thought. But, then again, I have no idea of the details and shenanigans that went into all of this--who knows if it were stormy, "on and off" and so on. But, to remain in it for that long is very interesting.

The fact that she pushed me away because I was getting too close (and also, I believe, because she misconstrued some of my verbiage--so unfortunate!), tells me that she perhaps doesn't want to be close to a man like that right now, but also one can interject all of the BPD traits into it, as well.

Anyway, I just wish that she and I were still connected, because I do miss her, our great conversations, and fellowship/communion.

[an0ught]

Hi thisagain,

 Anyone out there? I'm sorry for writing a novel, I tried to go back and condense it but couldn't find the edit button.

there is no edit button after a short while. Threads would get confusing to read if previous posts were altered for no good reason.

But you hit on a good point. Shorter to the point posts encourage often more responses. This is not to say that long, carefully thought through posts are of no value. In these posts you reflect and gain by writing. So different styles work better in different situations for different purposes.

Sometimes I try to say it with SET or otherwise surround it with reassurance that I don't think she's a bad person, she was just sick and needed treatment, she's been wonderful lately, that's not "who she is," etc. But I could say all of that 100 times and then follow it with one "when you do X I get scared/hurt because it reminds me of when you used to Y," and that sends her into dysregulation. I've seen people on here say that they do SET without the T, but I think that's really missing the whole point of SET which is to be able to tell her the truth and have her hear me.

You got the purpose of SET and sounds like you are trying. Now she does not like hearing what you tell her and freaks out. So what do we learn here? She is super sensitive in this area. Possibly knows quite well what you are telling her and feels shame and guilt - I'm speculating here - but in any case this seems to be a sore topic for her.

What is the point of telling her this? To feel understood by her? To get her to stop doing it? Very understandable but won't work, she can't stop herself that is the crux of BPD, right now she is too immature. What works is preventive calming down with validation or walking away when it happens. It may sound limiting but it is effective. The point where the pwBPD freely admits understanding is a fairly major turning point usually much later. This requires staying calm enough and being able to deal with guilt and shame.

It is worth reaching out to the board and elsewhere for your understanding. Get all the support you need. This will take a while