Need thoughts, new wrinkle: Stick with PC, or spend lots on new (better) one?

[momtara]

The plot is thickening with me and my ex. He's irrational and told our PC she was fired. She suggested to me that we get someone new and he pays half. She hasn't made other suggestions about his psychological issues and I found her not very effective in that regard; it took her at least half a year to see what was wrong with him. Now she knows.

I need to change things in an order. Ex will have to pay 50 percent of PC retainer and fees going forward, and he will freak out. He also will have to pay some legal bills. He has stepped up his harassment of me and it will be better for the kids if we have a new PC who can monitor him via his doctors and if I also mandate that he gives frequent notification about therapy.

Here's a new wrinkle. My old PC recommended I politely tell ex we will need a new one and he has to pay, and see how he reacts. When I did this, he backed down SORT OF by saying we can go back to the old one, but I still have to pay, it has to be during certain hours, she can't do this that and the other thing. While I'm not giving in to those demands, I now think he'll probably be willing to see the old one and change the agreement so she can now talk to his doctors and so we get more frequent notifications. However my new dilemma is whether to try to get him to go back with the old one or use a new one.

The old one at least knows our history now, knows he's nuts, and he probably won't be as triggered by going back to her. Plus if I can get him to agree to all this (which I think I can) it will save us at least say $4K in legal fees and new retainers that we'd have to spend fighting in court and starting with someone new.

Cons against the old one - I never felt she was aggressive enough, she is a social worker but not enough of a forensic psych background. But who knows how a new one will work or if he or she will be better.  (Our PC said she will talk to whoever we hire.)

What I am leaning toward is asking for an emergency order to appoint a new one (a forensic psych), he pays half. It will trigger him and he will be taking the kids again in a week and a half and this worries me. I could also ask for suspended visitation until we meet with the new one but not sure if that will create or solve more problems.

Wondering if anyone thinks maybe I should try to push him to go back to the old one (if she lets us) to save the money and make use of the fact that at least she knows the situation now.

Please weigh in!

[livednlearned]

Why not let natural consequences of his actions play out? He fired the PC. So then he faces the consequences of those actions... .

[momtara]

That's funny, L and L - you often say similar things to my therapist. In the past, my T has suggested that I should let certain things play out.

But I'm not sure what any "natural" consequences could be. All that happens now is we have no PC and he keeps harassing me in subtle ways on and off. If I don't go to court or do anything, then pretty much nothing happens except that I'm trying to deal with him alone and see what comes.

[livednlearned]

Natural consequences of him firing the PC are that you will get a new one, and he has to pay half.

He's bargaining because he realizes that he had a pretty good deal. You gave him a window to negotiate, and he did. He rolled right over you and threw in a bunch of terms that put even more constraints on you. So there are no consequences for him except that he can do whatever he likes.

This is why you have to have a goal, a strategy, and a plan. Otherwise you are at his whim.

[ForeverDad]

If I don't go to court or do anything, then pretty much nothing happens except that I'm trying to deal with him alone and see what comes.

Well, the courts would love that.  They prefer not to deal with repeat litigants.

As I see it, your problem is pretty much like holding a partially inflated balloon.  You desperately want to control the entire thing and have more confidence if others help you do it.  But every time the balloon is held or squeezed on one part, it just pops out somewhere else.  And your helpers, the PCs, don't last that long.  And the peer support has a hard time making new suggestions for the repeat issues.

This may be the time to take the training wheels off your bicycle.  You already have decision making and majority time, right?  You are in a very strong position.  Yes, you don't feel strong, but your position is.  Evidently he will keep pushing the order here and there.  Well, considering that most here have found that having a PC can often have only limited benefit... .

• Unless he takes you to court you get to hold firm to the order.



• You can hold firm to the schedule and decisions of the order.



• If you're concerned about the safety of the children you can withhold them until you're satisfied things are back to normal.



• If something isn't covered directly by the order then you can still decide what to allow, his only real recourse is to take you to court.  Somehow I feel that's not a big risk, as long as you're reasonable or have some basis in why you do what you do then you'll be okay.  Even if he calls the police all they'll do is (1) maybe suggest one of you 'give in' to resolve the immediate incident or (2) tell him to fix it in court.



• If he does something really bad then you can take him to court, optionally suspending visits until addressed in court.

Do you think the above sums up your situation and might work for most incidents and concerns?  If so, then you can see whether the PC/court resource (or dare I say, crutch) can just fade away except for urgent issues.

[momtara]

Your analogy is a good one, Foreverdad.

Hmmmm.

I am a little reluctant to ride without training wheels right now. But it's all pretty relevant, what you said.

L-and-L, eventually I came to the same conclusion - don't go back to old PC. I don't think she wants to deal with him anyway. Time for a stronger one. I gave him that window because old PC suggested it.

I finally sent an email to my lawyer outlining what I want. It may be that we get them to agree to some things without going to court. If they force us into court, yes I take a risk. He filed a complaint against our old PC and I don't know if the new one will talk to the judge unless subpoenaed.

Still go back and forth on whether to ask for supervised visitation. Went to another doc appointment with the kids tonight and he was awful, telling the doc not to do certain tests, then changing his mind, trying to start legal fights w/me. I had to go wait in a different room.

[ForeverDad]

Went to another doc appointment with the kids tonight and he was awful, telling the doc not to do certain tests, then changing his mind, trying to start legal fights w/me. I had to go wait in a different room.

Did you leave him with the children?  If so, think about it, could he have caused the confrontation with the purpose to drive you into seclusion and leave the children with him or at least feeling like he succeeded, precisely what you always tell yourself not to allow.

It seems that despite his mental issues, he knows how to push your buttons and get you to retreat.  Look back and examine the scenario there.  Rather than you leaving, if he was causing problems you should have instead told him to step out and even asked the pediatrician to help keep the peace in the office.  (Standing up for yourself doesn't mean you ignore help when it's right there.  )

All I'm trying to do is show you ways to stand up for yourself and kids.  You've been timidly playing defense so long, calling on the referee so much that you haven't managed to learn and apply ways to stand up to him, well, consistently.

[momtara]

Sure - I agree, I do need to learn boundaries. Actually I did go to another waiting room with the kids when he kept trying to fight with me in the waiting room. They were never alone with him or with the doc.

Yes, he knows exactly how to push my buttons. And I do appreciate all the advice you give.

I know I have come here a lot lately, but I am going to need help navigating court if we end up there. I do talk to my T (who has some court experience). My L is mostly good in court and very busy (she has a young kid too). My mom is schizophrenic and family can't really help much, so I'm largely alone dealing with this mostly.

[livednlearned]

My mom is schizophrenic and family can't really help much, so I'm largely alone dealing with this mostly.

Do you talk to your T about the parallels between your mom and your ex?

I wonder if this is at the heart of your reluctance when you are making decisions about how to handle your ex.

[momtara]

I do, but I have strong boundaries with my mom. My T noticed this. I told him that it's because my mom can't hurt my kids. If she calls and she's yelling, I simply hang up. I don't take any of her nonsense.

My ex has a history of retaliating. During our marriage, if I stopped one bad behavior or brought it up in marriage counseling, he'd just do something else to irk me.

Tonight he called and our older child was telling him not to be mean to me. So he engaged toddler in a conversation about how mommy was mean instead. I politely asked him to redirect the conversation, and he would not. He told me to "Shut up and stop telling them what to say!" I never use that kind of language around them. I hung up. He called back. I gave it another chance, similar thing happened. Ex is becoming unhinged. I really don't know if it rises to the level of needing supervised visitation. He seems to calm down when he is with the kids at his place, so it's more an issue of feeling out of control. But it's going to get worse berfore it gets better. What now? My L has not responded yet but I need to update her on this.

[momtara]

I suppose the right thing would be for me to send him a brief email telling him not to do this again? I don't know that it will make a diff at this point, and will just piss him off further. Regardless, he's definitely getting worse.

[bravhart1]

I think before I spent too much time deciding if I should stay with the old PC or go with a new one I would send a email to PC ( copy ex if you are forced to) and ask point blank. " are you willing to keep working with us?" I'm not saying you have to stay with the PC, but if they say "no" then the decision has been made for you and there isn't one to be made. If it's a "no" Then I would ask that PC to write a letter documenting why they are unwilling or unable to continue.

Is the PC court ordered? Is your agreement with Pc such that either party can " fire" the PC without both parents consenting? Does your ex have the "power" to fire your PC? It wasn't just his PC it was both of yours.

I'm not saying you should stick with this PC, just that I would make darn sure if I am changing it's because it's something I want not because the BPD person lost their temper.

Being without a PC would sure work for your ex, more interaction with you, less accountability and no one documenting his crazy or checking in with his therapy. I can see why he would push for this, why is he given this power?

That's what I would be focusing on, not the money so much. We have it in the order our  BPDm has to pay half, but she refuses and then they (therapist, PC, etc) threaten to quit unless we pay all of it. So we are pretty much paying all of it anyway, even with the order.

Get court order asking for majority decision making rights in these regards if not just all of it.

[momtara]

Technically neither of us can unilaterally fire her. However, she seems to have withdrawn. She sent a letter saying she doesn't think he will listen to her suggestions and that she believes we should reopen the case.

Your suggestion is excellent and one I might consider... .however, in the last day or two things have changed and now I think we just need to go to court. Ex is getting more irrational and if I don't address it now it will go on forever. My lawyer is pretty busy and I owe her $2K and not sure I can get her to address this before next visitation but I sent her another letter this morning. I said I really think we need to ask the judge to find out what's going on with his doctors, and maybe hold off on another visitation until we're seeing a new pc. Of course, this ramps everything up. But if he is bipolar, I just shouldn't be dealing with him alone with small children right now.

Maybe I am overreacting. Maybe I'm not. Hard to know from where I'm standing. I do get good advice and perspective when i come here and sometimes even an idea I didn't think of before, so I'm always quite grateful for your thoughts.

[david]

The phone conversation with the kids sounded as if it were on speaker phone. I would be recording that. Hanging up was a good idea. The recordings may not be allowed in court but it would help with a good pc.

If that happens then let ex know at the pc meeting that you will continue to record things. I did that with my ex and she got more agitated at the counseling meeting. I stayed calm and continued to say I would still be recording. My situation is a bit different .My ex used to accuse me of abuse all the time. Since I started recording (four years now) I haven't been accused of any wrongdoing. When she objected in the counseling meeting I simply stated the fact that I haven't been accused of anything since I started recording. I went further by stating that either the recording was keeping me on my good behavior or preventing ex from fabricating untrue stories. Saying that out loud gave ex a pause because she had no answer to that argument. If I just stated it kept her from lying it would have been a trigger since that would have made her the bad guy. It confuses her when you don't argue in black and white thinking.

[momtara]

Luckily, I did record and will again. That should solve that problem (he had his lawyer complain about my recording things . But he'll find another way to harass, or he may suddenly retreat for like a month. Both things have happened.

Called my lawyer yesterday morning and still waiting to hear back. A bit nervous. Since I owe her $2K not sure she wants to work with me again, but that's not so much to a lawyer, um, is it?

[david]

I view my recording, with ex's knowledge, as a boundary. She knows I am recording and does behave because of that. She is supposed to stay in her residence when I come to pick up the kids. There have been a few times where she came out to speak to me. I open my car window a few inches. I have the audio recorder on my console in clear view and I have my video camera pointed straight at me. She has never tried anything since I have been doing that so it proves she has some kind of control over her behavior.

If you ex is coming to your house to pick the kids up perhaps having a security camera installed near the front door, in clear view, will help him maintain his composure. That may be allowed in court since security cameras are not illegal. That would have to be discussed with an atty to be sure.

I don't view my recording devices as evidence. It is protection for me because it keeps ex on her best behavior. What she does after I leave with the boys is her issue to deal with.

[momtara]

It's a good idea. My ex is paranoid about my recording - likely because he makes false claims about me. before the divorce, he did claim I abused our kids. That was part of what scared me into getting the whole divorce over quickly.

After talking with several PC's this week, I'm realizing how much better I could have done. I guess we can't kick ourselves for what we didn't do during our divorce. We all make mistakes (and waste money). Now I am going to do it right, get a good PC who is effective, and hopefully ex and I can coparent much better.

[david]

I went through a lot of money before I found out how to "play the game". Once I figured out what worked best for the kids and me I was able to spend less money and accomplish what I thought best. I don't even try to co parent. I discovered no way for that to work. I did try. Your situation may be different so I am not trying to steer you from that.

My ex gets triggered from any positive suggestion I make. I have learned that the only way for us to "co parent" is to have my ideas become my ex's ideas so she can look like the good mom. That only works if the circumstances are just right and I have the time to make it work.

[momtara]

It's a lot of clever stepping. Good for you for figuring it out! I guess there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

[momtara]

My lawyer is going to talk to me about this Monday. Ex has gotten quiet again - every time he does this, I foolishly think I'm overreacting by possibly doing an emergency order, and maybe I'll be making things worse by triggering him and making him not trust me, but he scares me. This is all so confusing. My T believes he probably wouldn't really hurt the kids but the harassment has to be stopped and it has to stop fast and I need a PC. He said not to worry about supervision but worry about the other stuff. I dunno - we do need a PC. (Sadly seeing a PC triggers him so much that he totalled his car 5 min before an appointment we had with one last year.)

But tiptoeing just means I let myself be harassed to avoid worse things. I am coparenting with a mentally ill person. I have to have help... .what do people do who can't afford a pc?

If anyone has suggestions before I talk to my L, feel free to share.

[scraps66]

What's to say a new PC would be any better?  Could be worse.  Unfortunately, the PC sessions are not where his psychological issues are to be addressed.  It's like couple's therapy and the reason so many BPs love couple's therapy.  Neither one of you can be singled out and criticized.  In the scenario where it is you, ex and the therapist in a room, you are always there for ex to blame.  It just doesn't work. 

After three years of being divorced - after a four year divorce - we were sentenced to coparent counseling.  It was the same outcome.  Useless.  In these sessions, the last one in particular, my ex says to me, "No wonder S10 hates you!"  If you were a therapist, even one that's not so good, you would understand that the origin of such statements, seven years after separation, should lead you to believe that there are significant issues in this family dynamic.  The CP counselor said nothing, or maybe he did after I left the session.  There were other such instances.  I endured this sort of stuff for several sessions, not this bad, but also having the knowledge that ex was obstructing getting our S10 counseling help.  I could only listen to her lies so long.  When describing S10s third suspension in five weeks, and his behavior, similar to ex's, and that she was enabling and modeling poor behavior for him, I diplomatically stated that I had grave concerns with ex's behavior, over years, in front of our kids and how that was affecting them. 

I guess my diatribe was a little more direct than I had wanted it to be.  My "accusations" then won me a private session with the CP counselor where I was told that I would get nowhere saying things like this to ex.  It's the God's honest truth her behavior impacts the kids.  So, this counseling was sort of backfiring on me.  Now I was beginning to look like the problem. 

This counselor just took the extreme NEUTRAL position.  It doesn't work when one party is doing things that are just wrong.  His report went something like this, "You Scraps stated that ex is an emotionally damaged parent who preys on her children.  You ex stated that Scraps is a draconian parent who parents too aggressively."  His report was just he said she said and tallied a "tie" score.

"Equitable" therapy like this doesn't work with a BP.  I had brought up instances of ex showing up at activities and questioning me in front of the kids, asking me, "did you do this, did you do that, and are you doing this for S10," right in front of the kids.  I asked, what do you do in this scenario, what do you do if one parent can't backoff and continues, in front of the kids?  He just said, "both of you are responsible for your actions in front of the children."  That was it.  CP is designed to make the combatants work things out, together.  Just doesn't work with a BP.     

[scraps66]

I guess, in a round about way what I'm saying is considering the same solution, PC, may end with the same results or worse.  I know I did like the fact that I could get decisions made in front of the CP counselor.  But if I evaluated that against the time, money and effort spent getting to these sessions, and the aggravation sitting through sessions with ex, it's like shoveling sand against the tide.  Lots of effort and tolerance for little results and I continuously wonder if the effort is worth the results.

[momtara]

That's very good perspective. Was this pc a forensic pscyhologist? You're right, mostly I have been spending $$$ to help get the right decisions made and it hasn't stopped the behavior. I may ask the judge to talk to his shrink or our old PC to get info. I don't know if I'll succeed, but worth a shot. My lawyer is good at getting such things done, but I don't know what else to ask for and also, emergency hearings are held on Fridays in my county and he takes the kids saturday, so it may ramp things up if we lose. On the other hand, it may set a boundary. Going to write up a summary this weekend and talk to my L Monday - all of these perspectives are appreciated. There's always the perspective that Im just trying to deal with anxieties through court and technically I already have all the power, but what if he *does* get worse and I have no professionals to help? I do think we need a pc for now, although it will upset him to pay when he doesn't make much money... .

[momtara]

OK, spent the entire day outlining the timeline of harassment and intimidation. Will send all to my L to see what she thinks. She is supposed to call me in the morning, but she also wants her dough for last year, so not sure if she'll take on anything new. But I gotta try.

I know my situation isn't that bad compared to some here. Still, if I can at least improve it a slight bit by setting more boundaries, the kids and I will be a bit more emotionally healthy, I think. Using phone calls to harass me, canceling doc appointments, etc. is beginning to grate.