How do you talk about BPD with a BPD wife?

[DevilYouKnow]

Hello to everyone; sorry you're here, but thanks for being a help to everyone dealing with this.  I'll put the details of how I got here below if anyone is interested in reading a book, but my main reason for posting is to see if anyone has any experience broaching the topic of BPD and treatment with their BPD spouse.  While my wife will have periods of depression where she bemoans the fact that she's a terrible person and can't do anything right, this is really more attention-seeking than a serious attempt at introspection since she eventually reaches the conclusion that it's someone else's fault.  Any suggestion anyone makes that she is in any way flawed is either brushed off or attacked, so I can just picture a discussion with her about BPD consisting of me talking and--at best--her listing all the reasons I'm wrong about it or just generally a bad person.  She is a fairly high-functioning BPD who works hard to maintain her image, so most people who know her casually don't suspect much out of the ordinary.  People who know her well (her family, my family, her best friend) know she is BPD and I know would back me if I wanted to have an "intervention"--they have suggested it before--so I was just curious if anyone has had "the talk" successfully and how they did it.  Thanks.   --DYK

Background:  Got married ten years ago after about a year of dating.  To my memory, things were normal enough the first couple of years; in fact, pretty good.  She was sweet, doting, supportive of my career, everything at home was taken care of, etc.  Things started to change a few years in.  I had just come back from a particularly brutal deployment in Iraq, we moved, we bought a house, I started a new assignment, we had our first kid, she started working... .a lot of change.  I was struggling with PTSD and was a bit of a mess--emotionally isolated, workaholic, borderline alcoholic.  I was terrified to love people because of how many people I loved died in Iraq, so I'm afraid I wasn't very supportive during her pregnancy, but I was instantly smitten with our daughter and--despite my own issues--have always been a good father, something even she won't deny in all but her blackest moods.  She became very emotionally abusive, everything was my fault, nothing I did was ever good enough--something I was already predisposed to believe through my PTSD and survivor's guilt, so I accepted it readily enough and worked harder to please her.  Nothing worked, and it seemed like the more I tried, the worse it got.  There were times where I would literally see her go insane with rage and hate towards me and others where we were the best of friends.  In her worst moments she would threaten suicide, cut herself, threaten me with a knife, accuse me of molesting our daughter, anything to inflict maximum suffering.  She was never that good with money, but her impulsive shopping grew progressively worse, straining our budget and filling our house with useless stuff (we probably have 50 picture frames with no pictures in them, closets full of clothes with tags still on, material for crafts and projects that will never be done, etc.).  She complained I didn't do enough around the house; she said that everything I did do was done wrong.  She became obsessed with putting our daughter in pageants, spending thousands of dollars and many of our weekends driving around to various ones, elated if she did well and furious if she did not--she was angry at everyone, but it was mostly directed at me and my daughter since she knew better than to make a scene in public.  She had a string of affairs that I found out about and confronted her on; she said she wanted a separation, so I grabbed a yearlong deployment to Afghanistan while she started another affair.  I still wanted to work it out, mainly out of concern that she might get custody of my daughter and I wouldn't be able to protect her then.  When I got back from Afghanistan, she decided to stay with me, we moved and I started a new assignment.  She always had flighty, get-rich-quick ideas where she was going to provide this wonderful future, but never really committed to anything.  She became involved in several direct-sales companies, which took up a lot of time and money, and lost most of her remaining interest in housework and parenting.  Between her shopping and lack of cleaning, our house was at best cluttered and at worst borderline uninhabitable (days of dishes in the sink, dirty diapers strewn everywhere).  I was preparing for another deployment to Afghanistan and away from home a lot, which upset her.  I would do all I could to pull the house together when I was home, but nothing was good enough.  Any discussion about reining in her spending, uncluttering the house, etc., became a one-sided argument of how it either wasn't a problem or it was all my fault.  We had two daughters at this point and a third on the way, and she exhibited the same love/hate towards them as towards me.  Sometimes (particularly if she had to be away from them) they were perfect little angels and she loved them so much.  Often, they were unmanageable little monsters who actively sought to make her life miserable, although she would frequently talk about wanting more kids immediately after this without the slightest hint of awareness of her cognitive dissonance.  She spent the majority of her days shopping or on her computer/phone, usually interacting with the kids only for basic care and feeding or to yell at them.  My oldest daughter, who is intelligent and sensitive, is already dealing with anxiety and depression from having to walk on eggshells around her mom.  My middle one, who is strong-willed and tough, just engages in screaming matches with her and already has difficulty managing her own anger.  I got back from my fifth combat deployment to Afghanistan, we moved again, I started a new assignment.  My career was really taking off at this point and I guess I just kept hoping that if I did better and provided more then maybe her "good" personality would supplant the bad one.  Unfortunately, I was still dealing with PTSD, untreated at this point due to the demands of my new assignment.  My wife grew increasingly clingy and dependent when I wasn't around and hostile or cold when I was--multiple calls/texts a day while I was at work wanting me to solve problems she was entirely capable of managing on her own, etc.  At this point, I have no identity outside of work and home--no friends, hobbies, etc.  I can't spend any money on myself because she spends everything we make and more on useless stuff; I can't make friends or spend any time pursuing my interests because any time that I'm not working I have to be doing housework and taking care of the kids or there is hell to pay (meanwhile, she frequently goes out on her own to shop or party with friends).  The one friend I made, a neighbor a couple houses down who was also a combat vet, she went out of her way to ensure I couldn't spend time with him even though he was nearly next door--he wasn't allowed to come over because the house was too messy; I wasn't allowed to go to his house because it wasn't fair to just leave her alone with the kids and go have fun.  The one night I just said screw it, I'm going to hang out with him for a couple of hours, I got nasty texts the entire time and a screaming meltdown when I got home where she said she wanted a divorce.  At this point I would say she hasn't had a truly valid emotional connection with me in 6 years or so; she can be (infrequently) loving and affectionate, but it is always on her terms, always with strings attached, always subject to her needs and whims.  Our sex life was increasingly infrequent and generally more trouble than it was worth-- it always had to be initiated by me, always involved a conversation about how she didn't feel like it and I was too needy, always involved a conversation about whether or not I "deserved" it, and when she did acquiesce she made a big show about what a favor she was doing me and then made it as fast, businesslike, and mechanical as possible.  Her parents and my parents both encouraged me to divorce her and said they would back me on custody, but I didn't want to gamble on that and kept trying to stick it out.  Then, starved for some kind of physical and emotional connection with someone, I had an affair, which I quickly realized was a mistake and tried to end.  That went poorly and ended up with the other woman faking a pregnancy and trying to blackmail me, so rather than dig my hole deeper I just accepted the consequences and told my wife.  She took it unnervingly well, and within a few days decided she wanted to stay with me and work it out.  She contacted one of her old affair partners and strung him along for a couple of months saying she wanted to get back together with him, mainly just to rub it in my face as she would make me read all the messages.  :)espite this (and this may speak to the depths of our dysfunction), our relationship actually got a little better as she made at least a surface attempt to address some of the sources of my unhappiness.  At the same time, she was becoming increasingly unhinged and a lot of the disgust and hate she would normally vent on me became laser focused on this other woman and, to some extent, herself.  She attempted suicide (more a cry for attention; she took a few pills that she had enough medical training to know would be ineffective) and frequently cut herself.  After a couple months where she and the other woman harassed each other for a while, the other woman went public with the affair and derailed my very promising career.  She gave up her brief act of pretending to care about me and alternated between clingy and hateful.  Now she knew she held the ultimate trump card; everything bad that had ever happened to her or our family was my fault and she wouldn't hesitate to throw that in my face any time she wanted her way.  She demanded support for a series of decisions that were damaging to our family and wouldn't accept any discussion of it:  she made me homeschool my oldest daughter while my career was on hold, socially isolating her; she initiated expensive, time-consuming, and ineffective legal action against the other woman; she drove us deeper into debt with her spending.  She spent most of her days in the bedroom on Facebook or the internet, watching TV, or sleeping.  She made me bring her food in bed, take care of the girls, run the house, and really only emerged to shop.  She was increasingly volatile and more unpredictable--anything could set her off--and more emotionally and verbally abusive towards me and the girls.  We became virtual shut-ins as I and the girls were not allowed to go anywhere or do anything, and the girls risked incurring her wrath if they did anything in the house other than quietly watch TV.  She was physically abusive towards my oldest at least once in my presence (she got frustrated while brushing her hair and threw her to the ground by her hair), which I told her I would not accept.  She managed to keep herself relatively together in public, but relished her victim status and took every opportunity to humiliate me publicly by telling everyone--casual acquaintances, random Facebook friends, everyone--all the details of my affair, even wanting to start a blog about it.  She said we needed to tell everyone because she wanted us to be an example of how to repair a marriage after an affair, but we could only talk about my affair and not hers because hers weren't publicly revealed and she didn't want to expose her partners.  I got a new assignment and we moved again.  She was turned down for a job where she used to work, which was a little unusual since she had good reviews when she left and was well qualified to resume.  It may have been bias, or better candidates applied, or maybe word of the three affairs she had with others in the workplace on the clock reached the wrong ears--regardless, it became alternately my fault (since she left the job in the first place to move with me or, through a complex set of logical leaps, my affair had poisoned the well for her) and the fault of the hiring board.  She fixated on it and repeatedly contacted former leaders and coworkers through both formal and informal channels, demanding explanations, threatening legal action, etc.; basically the more of a threat something is to her sense of self, the more nuclear response it gets, and rejection in any form tops her list.

So here we are, still tenuously holding it together.  She is still spending out of control and we are deeper in debt than we ever have been--not an unmanageable amount, but if I don't draw a line soon then it will get there.  I still have no friends or hobbies--not that I could afford it anyway even if I could do something without the meltdown I know it would provoke.  I do enjoy some free activities (reading, writing, fishing, etc.), but doing those things risks getting me yelled at for being lazy or inattentive.  I try to do them while she is out enjoying herself.  :)espite me working full time and her not working, I mostly handle the household.  She'll do laundry or dishes when they get excessive, buy the groceries (and usually a lot of other stuff), slap together a sandwich for the girls if I'm not around, and do a project or a bit of cleaning here or there if she feels like it, but that's about it.  She'll dream about a wonderful future together one minute and be vicious and spiteful the next.  All the things I've become accustomed to.  So I recently figured out BPD and have been reading up on it and finding, of course, that I've been managing it all wrong.  I at least know what it is now, which makes her actions a little more predictable and understandable and less personal.  It does present a challenge in dealing with my PTSD, since it can be tough to untangle how much of my anxiety and depression is combat trauma and how much of it is home trauma, but I've been through worse things in my life than a BPD wife and I know I can handle it.  I do worry about the kids since they don't understand what is going on--it does break my heart to come home every day and see the joy and relief on their faces to have someone who will play with them and treat them consistently.  I know it is emotionally damaging to them, but I think I have more tools to shield them from that in the future.  I still am hesitant to gamble on the courts for full custody, despite the continued support of my family and in-laws, so I think for now that them dealing with a BPD mother who feels validated with me around is less damaging than dealing with a BPD mother who feels rejected with me not around.  It's a few months before I can file for divorce in this state anyway due to residency requirements.  If you made it this far, thanks for reading; it feels good to get it all out.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[NonBPHusb]

Wow.  I'm sorry for everything that you have had to go through.  Are you talking to a therapist?  It sounds like you have a lot you are dealing with.  I have found a therapist to be incredibly helpful in sorting through things.  Good luck with everything.

[Ceruleanblue]

I'd suggest not telling her. I think it's best coming from a psychiatrist, or doctor. Once it's diagnosed, I don't see why you can't talk about it, but just be aware, even then they usually get upset or have denial. In fact, I think a lot of doctors are reluctant to name that diagnosis due to how pwBPD reacts. I think this is the case with my BPDh. His psychiatrist told him he has "traits of BPD", and promptly put him on a drug highly prescribed for it. His family doctor before, put him on a drug also highly prescribed for it. Then his psychiatrist suggested DBT therapy, which we all know was developed to treat BPD. My BPDh is saying they now send people with other things to DBT too, which of course is true. I've found the DBT skills extremely helpful myself.

BPDh doesn't want to think he has it, but you'll never convince ME that he doesn't. The proof is in the pudding, so to speak, and sometimes it's hard to diagnose because they can hide it. Some only take it out on a spouse, whereas others it will touch most interpersonal relationships. My BPDh has had a string of relationships go bad due to his anger, and painting them black. Bosses are in this category. Three of his four kids currently have little to do with him(they are almost certainly PD too), and we are on round two of trying to make this marriage work. He pulled us stakes, not me, which is ironic, as he's the one always acting out.

Will your wife seek help at all? My husband only got help because he finally listened to me, and got help. I told him that whether we stay together or not, he needed to do this for HIM, so he stopped ruining relationships, stopped the chaos, and could find some happiness and peace.

[SurfNTurf]

Hi Devil,

First of all, Thank You for your service. And welcome to this site - give yourself some time to read and learn and read/do the lessons on the right side of the page.

That said, are you connected with the VA for your own mental health? The reason I ask, is that quite often Veterans with PTSD get their own care, and the 'family' gets included... .if you get my drift.

Just a thought. Take care of you!

[DevilYouKnow]

I am in therapy and it helps. My wife briefly went to both marriage counseling and individual therapy, but quits whenever the counselor/therapist suggests she take any level of responsibility for her own situation. She can always justify how negative things in her life are the fault of others, and she never really feels the consequences of her own bad decisions because I can't figure out how to let her fail without also hurting my kids.

[Wrongturn1]

DevilYouKnow:  Welcome, and thanks for your military service.  My brother is U.S. Army SF with multiple deployments, so I understand that the sacrifices our military people make are huge.  Also, your handle is very clever... .there are a lot of us on here who are choosing the devil we know instead of something else.

The conventional wisdom around here is that telling your BPD spouse they have BPD is not productive.  They end up dysregulating and accusing you having BPD instead.  The person with BPD has to be the one to actively want to change and seek treatment, and they usually seem to be most receptive to making real changes after they hit rock bottom in some form. 

Your most productive actions would be to read up on the lessons linked on the right side of the page, learn to validate your wife's emotions even if you don't agree with them, and find ways to treat yourself better.

[JQ]

Devil,

After reading your story I had to reach out to you brother for several reasons. I'm recently retired from the military myself & understand a lot of what you're going through or speak of. First lets take care of YOU first. You know as well as I do that you know if your leader is having issues, it can affect their decisions & put lives at risk.  I suffer from PTSD myself, anger issues due to a "work related" spinal cord injury that has left my right leg partially paralyzed. I was ordered to go get therapy since I told them no thank you I'm good. I was told, "It wasn't a request". SO, my guidance to you brother is to continue to get the assistance you need. I felt it as a sign of weakness as a leader, but in reality it takes a amazing amount of courage & personal strength to reach out for help. It doesn't happen over night in 1 or 2 sessions so the sooner the better for you, your daughter, family and those you lead.  After several sessions I broke down about the PTSD incident & she immediately referred me to a PTSD expert.  They initiated a EMDR protocol to help me with the PTSD. In fact, I just heard from another brother who took a IED in Iraq 2008 that he is going to start the same EMDR protocol for his PTSD. It works 98% of the time, so I truly encourage you to request it. It's not going to be easy, but in the end, it's going to help you ... .live a better life, be a better father, a better son, a better partner to someone in your life.

I have had 2 ex-wives that might be, but I had 2 exBPDgf's, the first one 18 years ago & the second one has been a off again on again relationship since Dec 2012. Like you I recently found out that my second exBPDgf had BPD when she told me in the last 12 months. Since then I've dove into everything BPD & learned all that I could. It's a mission I took on like every other mission. I've learned a lot ... .the three C's of BPD ... .YOU didn't Cause it!  YOU can't Control it! YOU can't Cure it!  Learn it! Know it! Live it!  I found that I put it on 3 stickies & put it somewhere I could see it several times a day. This helped me keep my sanity & realize it isn't or wasn't me. I learned about triangulation, projection, Black & White, Validation, push / pull behavior. I learned that this is a learned behavior from long before I met her. They had something happen in their childhood that made them develop this means of survival. They've used it though out their life because it works for them. They are stunted in a 3 year old behavior that will never make since. Have you ever sat down & had a conversation with a 3 year old? Did their logic EVER make sense? It's the same, your BPD logic will never make sense. I learned that they have an EXTREME fear of abandonment, real or not. They will leave you before you leave them, it's what they do no matter what you do or say to try and comfort them. Then when you have had enough & decide to leave they will chase you down telling you not to leave. So they have extra relationships & will use them to suit their needs. My recent exBPDgf has told me that her current bf isn't giving her what she needs in a relationship, that it has to end, but she had to come to this realization on her own. She has two young kids, starting a family late in life. He has kids, but their all older & out of out of college. He provides a fantasy world for her to escape her daily life responsibilities of work, raising two kids, etc. He's not really a life partner that will help raise her kids.

I've spoken with exBPDgf about her BPD BUUUT only after she came to me because she wanted to know why she would do or say some of the things she was doing. She knew certain things done or said was detrimental to raising her kids. She has been in & out of Therapy for decades on her own choice. When she brought this to me, I told her that maybe she was bi-polar & took this to her therapist. He finally told her she was BPD not bi-polar and then we started to research that. It's tough to realize that you have a mental disorder that will take years of therapy, possibly for the rest of their life to have any kind of normalcy of life.  Oh, & you'll need to be in therapy for this too because you'll need to keep your sanity dealing with this disorder too. But she has to WANT to go, you can't force her. Just like you can't force a kid to do their chores without some fallout. They have to want to go & get better for themselves, not for you or the kids.

It's been one hell of a roller coaster ride & if I want to stay with her I know that it's going to last a lifetime. I have to be good with that, YOU have to be good with that. I mean REALLY be good with that because its going to consume your life. There is evidence to show that having a significant other with BPD will shorten our lives. The day to day stress of EVERY facet of the relationship is going to play hell on your mental, physical, emotional health & will more then likely shorten it. YOU are more then likely a caregiver, she will forever be a care taker taking all she can get and give very little in return.

I found out during my therapy sessions that I was a caregiver or a codependent, I was the peacemaker, that I was a perfectionist, the knight in armor, the cowboy in the white hat wanting to rescue those who needed it, bringing peace to those who needed it, watching over others. I was the oldest of 5 taking care of brothers & sisters with mother who was a uBPD & a father who was a raging alcoholic who was absent most of the time spending time at work to stay away from the crazy train my mother was driving. So being the oldest I took care of brothers & sisters trying to protect them from her. I was the peacemaker between the 2 of them. I was a perfectionist trying to obtain some sort of acknowledgment from my father or mother but it never came. Being a caregiver, & everything that shaped my childhood, it was the reason why I was a good at taken care of those I was in charge of, it's why I lead from the front, not unlike you. Being codependent isn't a bad thing & the good thing is that I can change my behavior just by being self aware & a little coaching from professionals. Someone who is BPD will need a lifetime of therapy, assistance. Ask yourself, are you REALLY wanting to deal with all that you have for the rest of your life. Remember she had this LONG before you came along & you Can't Cure it & sure as hell Can't Control it.

Both exBPDgf have had multiple relationships, nothing suggest that this will ever change & I was told as much by exBPDgf #2 therapist when she invited me to one of her sessions. I finally told her this was one of my boundaries, I won't endanger my life with STDs, UTI's, or other things that will be with me forever if you continue to have extra bf's. I buried one friend who died when her bf gave her aids from having extra affairs. Evidence suggest because they have a stunted emotional behavior of a 3 year old they actually crave, need limits, boundaries as much as they real against it. It seems that when I put my boundaries in place, she actually changed, I saw moments of clarity. One morning just a few months ago after a night of intense intimacy she opened her eyes & looked at me. She said "I need you to understand something ... .it's important that you know that I love you, I need you to know that."  It was a moment of clarity that I hadn't seen in a long time & I hope it was a point that she really wanted to make an effort to change. But do date she's still with bf#2 who is giving her a fantasy world. SO will it change? It's hard to tell, I don't know. I'm in a time out at the moment.

We have to ask ourselves several questions. Why do I love her? IS she a good mother to her kids? Are we in a mutually respectful relationship? Will she really be there if something happens to me & I need her? A life partner? Do I want to be in a relationship that is going to take a lifetime of therapy? YOU are responsible for your happiness NOT anyone else's. You know as well as I do that at any given moment you can be taken off this planet for no fault of  your own. Life is certainly short & we only get one chance at it. You have a lot on your plate brother just trying to get through your items. You have to be there for your kids because they're going to need it. Ask yourself this question. Is the relationship that you have with your S/O a good example to provide to your kids as to what a good relationship should be? Or will they like me not see what a mutually respectful, loving, caring relationship is suppose to be & have to learn on their own going through bad relationship after bad relationship?

I've learned that a BPD has to learn to accept the responsibility & consequences of their actions & behaviors both good & bad. It's not unlike training your child to drive a car. There are rules, speed limits & you must learn them in order to be a safe driver. If you teach them this, they go out & get a speeding ticket, they will have to face the consequences of the fine, traffic court, suspension of driving. If you pay for the ticket or help them in any way what are you teaching them for responsibilities? It's the same with BPD, they have to learn that there are real consequences for their behavior, you can't rescue them. You have to be the parent teaching them new behaviors ... .do you want to do this for the rest of your life?

I spent thousands on both exBPDgf's. I've moved across country for both at different times. ExBPDgf #2 is nearly 50, makes 6 figures a year & has very little in the way of retirement. She doesn't have much in the way of savings, that probably won't change. If you've read & learned anything about BPD's, they have no control on spending limits. It's one of those boundaries they never learned. If you decide that you need to depart the pattern for NOT only your own health, but that of your child, I know more then one single parent who has custody of their child while being on active duty. You'll have to document, document, document. You'll have to video & record conversations & crazy train moments. Most apps can do this for you on your phone. Maybe you'll have to do it, "record conversations" without her knowing it like putting your phone in a pocket. But you have to make the choice to do what you need to do. No one can else can help you with the choices you have to make. You'll have to go recon on her.

I go back and forth, if she calls how to act. She has told me she wants to start over from the beginning & build our relationship from there. Do I really want to go there? Do I really want all of this for my future after putting a long hard career in the military and now i want to enjoy what time I have left with someone who is a life partner in a loving, caring relationship. How long before she goes back to bf2 or bf3 or someone else completely different? I know the more time I spend in no contact or time out the easier it is to let her go for good. Time will tell ... .it's not easy, but I like you have been worse situations but at least those had an end to them. This is going to more than likely last the rest of my life if I stay. Am I ready for that ... .

Take care brother, stay safe, come back as often as you need too ... .you'll find no judgement here.

JQ

[DevilYouKnow]

JQ--

Thanks for sharing.  After doing some more reading I'm pretty much textbook codependent, so I think I'm going to work on that first and see where the chips fall with her.  I think as long as I have the codependent mindset I'm just spinning my wheels in PTSD treatment because I don't even consider myself worthy of forgiveness for the lives I lost in combat.  I'm guessing that as a codependent becomes more self-actualized and starts establishing boundaries that pwBPD reacts poorly to the loss of control (at least that's where I see it going with my wife), so it may be that just fixing myself brings about some kind of resolution with her.  She knows that the kids have some issues, although it would never occur to her that she is a contributing factor, so I can probably convince her to put the older two in therapy.  That's a win for them, plus maybe the therapist will put two and two together and address her BPD without involving me.

I guess the answers to your questions about my relationship would be mostly no, with some flashes of yes.  It's like even a terrible golfer is always going to hit that one shot out there that gives him hope he can master the game and keeps him coming back.  I'm stuck in some toxic mix of the gambler's fallacy, Parmenides fallacy, and sunk cost; add that to my own hang-ups about protecting people and refusing to fail and what made me great in combat makes me weak at home.   

My wife is in the job hunt process, which I'm ambivalent about.  First, the process sucks, dealing with her highs of anticipation and her lows of rejection-- she's made it well into the hiring process twice, but didn't make the final cut, so all her pain and disappointment of rejection has to be projected outward.  Second, if she does get hired she works in public safety with mostly male coworkers, which is tough.  Some of them sense her weakness and try to capitalize on it, and it's easy for her to idealize them--that was her issue last time she was working.  She was the victim, of course:  in her reality I didn't hang out with her at her work enough so her coworkers didn't respect our marriage and basically forced her into her affairs.  She seems to have some level of understanding of her weaknesses in this regard, but is both looking to me as protector and placing the responsibility for whatever happens on me.  Working does give her a sense of validation and self-worth though, and she's actually pretty good at what she does, so she tends to be more upbeat when she's working.  We'll see how it goes.

--DYK

[DevilYouKnow]

Wrongturn --

My problem with letting her hit rock bottom is I can't think of a way to let her fail spectacularly that doesn't also involve a lot of collateral damage for me and the kids.  We've also been through some pretty significant stuff in our relationship and none of it has brought her to that point because she always finds a way to be the victim.  Ironically, my affair (where she probably had the easiest rationale to play the victim) snapped her into a brief period where I think she might have been open to help if I had known at the time that I was dealing with BPD, but that window closed a while ago.  Taking the kids from her is the only thing I think might work, but that's a pretty nuclear option and I don't know if I could win that fight in court anyway.

--DYK

[JQ]

Devil,

Realizing that you are a codependent as they say is 1/2 the battle. You've taken the objective now keep it & you're doing that by continue to work on yourself.  Learning to say NO was one of the hardest things for me, but I found that when I told my mother BPD & sister BPD no, I actually felt more in control of not only myself but the situation that I was in at the moment. I felt better about myself when I told the exBPDgf no as well. Before I learned to tell the people I loved the most no, I was a doormat, they walked all over me. And what I've come to learn is that if you love someone you won't use them as a doormat. Being a codependent like you said probably helped us in some small way to become the leaders we were caring for our people and refusing to fail at anything we were tasked with. I like your analogy of the terrible golfer as I can relate to it. I've said more then once there is no reason to buy a $2000 set of clubs to play golf as I'm not going to supplement my military retirement by being on the senior golf tour.   I play to laugh at myself & enjoy the outdoors and then there is always the 19th hole.

Being a codependent a hard thing to do, at our core we want to help, we want to give of ourselves, but they will take, & take, & take & never give back. I've read several books to include, "Stop Walking on Eggshells" "I love you I hate you - Don't leave me" and "The Human Magnet Syndrome", all books I found at my local library. The last one is interesting concept of how complete opposites do attract each other. The codependent and the emotional manipulator come together to create the perfect storm relationship. In part it describes borderline personality disorder, loves others with great intensity and passion. However, if they perceive the possibility of judgment, disapproval, criticism or abandonment, they will often strike back with a fury of hateful and vindictive aggression. This describes my relationship with my last BPD gf without question. I'm still in time out, i have no idea when she'll reach out to me, but I do know she will reach out. I took stock of timelines this morning. It's been 2 1/2 mths since I saw her last and a week today since I last received a text & call from her. In a way I feel her growing more distant, but I have no idea as any relationship with a BPD is impossible to know gage, or manage or anticipate.

In my search to a better place and in dealing with my own codependent issues, the one thing I keep coming back to brother is "RESPECT YOURSELF" ... .it's what we tell our juniors, it's what you tell your daughters to do all the time so why don't we tell ourselves that? I would echo your answers to being in a relationship with my BPD ex. Most of the answers are a resounding NO, but a yes or two are in there depending on any giving day or situation. I don't look at my divorces as a failure, but as learning lessons. I don't look at my exBPD gf as a failure but certainly a very valuable learning lessons. We are the eternal optimist! But we have to be a realist as well when it comes to life & relationships. I know that I can't CURE it and I sure as hell can't CONTROL it! But I can affect change for myself and going forward.

We've been taught that 30 days makes a habit. I know that if I don't hear from here in another 3 short weeks things will continue to get better. I know that as each day passes and I don't see her, I don't visit her FB page, or text her things get better. I know if I get out & see the sun, have a burger & beer with a buddy, I know if I get out & enjoy the small things in life, the laughter of a child, the simpleness of enjoying the breeze, the pending changing of the leaves or whatever gives you a simple joy i know things will always get better. It's a hard thing to stay, it's even a harder thing to leave ... .we all have to make that choice to do one or the other. No one can tell what path to go down, you'll find no judgement here only a friend to listen to your thoughts.  If you stay, it'll take more strength, patience, nerve then any battle you've been in. If you go, it'll take the same strength and patience. If you have to go, document, document, document, record, video & voice. Get good counsel, we both know that a single parent on active duty can get full custody and when we have to deploy as long as you have them go to a sisters, grandparents etc. there should be no problem. It won't be easy, but we're no stranger to hard taskers & rise to the occasion to complete the mission with nothing but complete and total success.

Stay safe brother,

JQ