Sex = self-esteem for them?

[shatra]

    I know sex is related to self-esteem for many people, not just BPDs. But I am thinking that it is closely connected to their self-esteem, and also that if they feel they are not a good sex partner, they feel the non will abandon them (so the BPD will abandon us first)?

   I am only guessing this, because after my last breakup with BPD, what may have triggered it is that one time I did not have a positive feelilng about the sex... .yet I think the BPD felt that hurt his self-esteem, and may have triggered the breakup.  He enjoyed it that time, but I didn't.  Though the sex was good other times, I know the BPD thinking is extreme, and if he thought "She doesn't like it, that equals she doesn't like me, that equals she will leave me"

Shatra

[once removed]

hey shatra 

i think youre right about your guesses, and youre right that this attitude toward sex is not unique to BPD, but very common with it. sex is also used to regulate emotions.

"I am only guessing this, because after my last breakup with BPD, what may have triggered it is that one time I did not have a positive feelilng about the sex... .yet I think the BPD felt that hurt his self-esteem, and may have triggered the breakup.  He enjoyed it that time, but I didn't.  Though the sex was good other times, I know the BPD thinking is extreme, and if he thought "She doesn't like it, that equals she doesn't like me, that equals she will leave me"

you are probably right again. of course sex will never be great EVERY time, but the fact that you didnt enjoy it may have triggered fears of abandonment. pwBPD are hyper vigilant in watching for abandonment, so even if you hadnt expressed it, he might have sensed or perceived this reaction in you. you are right that the thinking is extreme and i think you put it well.

did this episode lead to a breakup?

[shatra]

Thanks for the feedback.

   Yes, he knew that I didn't enjoy the sex that last time... .other than that the day/night we were together went very well and the months leading up to that were going well.

  Then he gave me silent treatment after that weekend together, and then we had a mild disagreement over scheduling. He gave me the silent treatment and then blurted out "Let's break up".  He didn't give an actual reason, and when I spoke to him months later he still didn't have an actual reason, just said it "didn't work out"

    So I wonder if that is what triggered it, me not enjoying the sex ONE time, and him feeling that would lead me to abandon him in the future, so he abandoned me first. That sure would not be enough for me to break up with someone, but for a BPD, the slightest hint that they are "not goo" equals in their mind they are "100% bad" and then the partner will leave them. That's what I believe anyway, since there was no actual trigger he or I could pinpoint?

Shatra

[apollotech]

... .but for a BPD, the slightest hint that they are "not goo" equals in their mind they are "100% bad" and then the partner will leave them. That's what I believe anyway, since there was no actual trigger he or I could pinpoint?

Hi shatra,

I don't see that as fear of abandonment triggered. I do see that as him deciding that you're not a suitable bonding candidate and discarding you, and therefore, the attachment.

Just out of curiosity, were there "intimacy" issues involved in the sexual engagement that you found unsatisfactory?

[JQ]

Shatra,

It is very possible that your thoughts on your BPD, sex and abandonment is correct. Example, my exBPD gf is very sexual and feels very comfortable with me in telling me things she wants and or her actions, responses, etc to mine. Even though she's got a relationship with bf#2 she texted me after she had came home from a local outing with a friend, somewhat intoxicated and texted me she wanted to have sex with me and would call me soon. One thing led to another, I think she started to sober up, and my emotional distance prevented it from happening.

She has been VERY open with her past and why it led to her being a BPD and having relationship issues. She was sexually molested by a older brother by 2 years, this started when she was about 4 or 5 and continued until the age of about 13-14. This went on nearly everyday and it was her faith in god that prevented her from committing suicide, she's catholic. In addition he emotionally damaged her by telling her she was damaged, that no one will want to be with her, marry her or love her. Manipulation at it's worst. In addition at the same time and older sister physically abused her by kicking her, punching her and verbally abusing her almost on a daily basis. Her father was absent working all the time and her mother wasn't emotionally available and quite possible a BPD herself. Now I can't imagine the horror she endured everyday, not for weeks, not for months but years by the very people that was suppose to trust, to go to in life when there was trouble to protect her from the bad people in the world when in fact they were the ones creating the damage. I've wrote to her about this once and she has told me she only thinks or discusses this subject when she is in a counseling session and never wanted me to bring it up again outside that. I agreed.

So, in respect to your thoughts. My exBPDgf associated "love, attention, affection, someone showing her they cared" through daily sexual abuse and this was how she came to believe to support her need for love, to have someone care for her. This has led to her trusting me in some rather intimate situations where she explores being dominated. She tells me it's a first for her, that she never really participated with others and as time passes she trust me more and more with deeper thoughts of domination that has actually scared me to her mental health and stability. She has offered "good bye sex" after we broke up ... .I feel it's a way for her to express not to abandon her ... .she has told me that she knew that the situation with her older brother was wrong, but she didn't want to give up the attention of being "loved" or shown "affection" ... .all this from the age of 4. No wonder her thought process, her behavioral process is stunted at that age level. I feel for her, I ache for her, I want to fix the damage done by years of abuse, but I know I can't and it's frustrating to know that I could of had an amazing relationship with her if it wasn't for her scars she bares and the wounds that were cut so deep and the scabs she continues to pick at to reopen those old wounds. i agree with once removed in that sex is used to regulate emotions as well.

It's now been 11 days since I've heard from her and I go back and forth whether to call or text her to say hi ... .but with her still in her relationship with her current boyfriend I have mixed feelings about it. It's frustrating ... .

JQ

[shatra]

Apollotech wrote---

I don't see that as fear of abandonment triggered. I do see that as him deciding that you're not a suitable bonding candidate and discarding you, and therefore, the attachment.  Just out of curiosity, were there "intimacy" issues involved in the sexual engagement that you found unsatisfactory?

==== He didn't say or act like I wasn't a suitable bonding candidate.  We were together for several years, and this was the only time I didn't enjoy the sex.   Later on we had a disagreement about scheduling and I got angry.  He didn't have a specific reason for the breakup, so I am thinking he feared I'd abandon him because although he enjoyed the sex, that one time I didn't ----also my getting irritated with him in his mind always equaled "She is mad at me, the next step is she'll leave me" and so he left me first.

-----Re: intimacy, there was sometimes the emotional distance from him that I didn't like, so that carried over into physical intimacy

JQ-----

    It sounds like your partner learned negative things about sex, and now she tries to connect with you via sex.   Is that the main way she expresses closeness?

Shatra

[apollotech]

==== He didn't say or act like I wasn't a suitable bonding candidate.  We were together for several years, and this was the only time I didn't enjoy the sex.   Later on we had a disagreement about scheduling and I got angry.  He didn't have a specific reason for the breakup, so I am thinking he feared I'd abandon him because although he enjoyed the sex, that one time I didn't ----also my getting irritated with him in his mind always equaled "She is mad at me, the next step is she'll leave me" and so he left me first.

shatra,

Fear of abandonment when triggered generates pull behaviors from the pwBPD. Did he terminate the relationship? Did he initiate NC? Did he smear you?

[JQ]

JQ-----

   It sounds like your partner learned negative things about sex, and now she tries to connect with you via sex.   Is that the main way she expresses closeness?

Shatra

Shatra,

I don't know if it's actually a negative thing completely. In part she sees sex as a means to get closer & to share intimacy. I believe she learned sex was associated with affection, right or wrong the way it happened and or attention needed from a child. If mom wasn't available she knew she would get that "bonding" from her brother. I mean you could really get Freudian about it. I would agree that it is certainly a double edge sword that cuts both ways that not only she's trying to come to terms with, but I am as well.

She does express closeness in other ways, cuddling, holding hands, a simple yet soft kiss that speaks volumes in closeness. But I believe she has intimacy issues that are associated with her abuse that will always need to be addressed. She has expressed to her therapist and me at different times that she continues to trust me more and more with how intense she wants to take things because she knows that I'll push limits for her but I will stop from actually physical abuse.

Up until recently, "bf#2" I was sending her Hallmark cards that she appreciated each and everyone. She showed me that she saved everyone ever sent in a folder marked with my name. She told me I was the only one ever to take the time of going through & reading dozens of cards to pick out the right one or two to send to her at that moment that was appropriate.

So, I have no idea what's going on ... .I doubt if I will hear from her tonight because I just realized it's already 8pm there & it was her first day back to work after being gone for 7 work days. So I'm sure she put in some overtime to catch up and she's probably exhausted from her week with the kids and the weekend with bf#2.  So I'm not expecting a text or a call from her ... .AND I'm not sure if I should at this point ... .your thoughts?

JQ

[shatra]

JQ wrote--

Up until recently, "bf#2" I was sending her Hallmark cards that she appreciated each and everyone. She showed me that she saved everyone ever sent in a folder marked with my name. She told me I was the only one ever to take the time of going through & reading dozens of cards to pick out the right one or two to send to her at that moment that was appropriate.

---How do you feel about her being with a boyfriend? What are her goals with him?

---He saving the cards means they are special to her. They represent an "object" that represents you while she is not with you... .it may be related to "object constancy"---while the object /person is not there, the cards are things that symbolize or represent the absent person.

[shatra]

Apollotech wrote---

Fear of abandonment when triggered generates pull behaviors from the pwBPD. Did he terminate the relationship? Did he initiate NC? Did he smear you?

----Fear of abandonment when triggered can generate pull behaviors/clinging---but many times in generates Pushing away behaviors from the BPD... .they sense or fear you will abandon them, so to avoid being rejected, they beat you to the punch and push you away first.  This may have been what happened, when although he enjoyed the sex, I didn't that one time (which to him may equal she doesn't like me and she will leave me).

-----He terminated the relationship and said at the time "We'll be on our own for now and then see int he future"... .now I feel it is a breakup, not just a break... .I know he spoke to friends about the breakup---not sure if he is smearing me.  We are in NC now

[apollotech]

Hi shatra,

The reason I was asking about the "intimacy" factor was in trying to determine if his leaving was just an engulfment issue, temporary. But, unfortunately, it does appear to me that you were split black and the attachment discarded by him, not usually immediately temporary.

How are you doing in all of this? You seem to be well versed in BPD. Are you hoping to reconcile with him or just understand what went wrong?

[JQ]

Shatra,

We've had several discussions about bf#2 and she tells me that he isn't what she needs in a relationship. I tend to believe he provides a fantasy world away from her real world of raising a couple of kids, day to day work issues, dealing with a ex-husband. His kids are grown and out of the house, he "spoils her" with trips, weekend getaways, living a life without daily stress. She tells me he's not the one but provides what she needs right now. is it long term, probably not. She tells me she's trying to get to the point to break it off. but doesn't quite know how to do that ... .I believe fear of abandonment, being alone is at the core of this challenge for her. She Knows I love her, and she has made it a point to tell me that she love me ... .and reenforced it to make sure I understood it. She's afraid of a relationship with me ... .because she's been hurt before with the ex-husband ... .abandonment, etc. She's afraid that if we get together I'll do the same thing ... .he didn't understand or want to deal with her BPD ... .I told her that I was at least learning about it and trying.

She asked me if I was jealous of bf2 ... .I told her it wasn't so much jealous but being hurt ... .my heart was hurt because he was with you sharing your day, discussions his bed. I'm not jealous ... .if the roles reversed and I told you that I had a date this weekend would you be angry or jealous? She told me she would be angry, hurt much like I would be. I think if I word it like that, turn it around, if i was the one doing this how would you feel ... .and I would like to think I hear that moment of clarity ... .that moment of reasoning that I've been looking for.  She has a lot on her plate with a new house, bf2, not seeing her girls enough, dealing with ex-husband getting engaged, and she told me she feels comfortable telling me, talking to me about these things because bf2 doesn't want to hear about them, doesn't want to deal with her issues. He just wants to play when he wants to play and have fun on his schedule.

She did mention that every time we talk ... .I make her smile and laugh ... .I say something silly ... .or do something to make her laugh. I can really see the battle that she has when it comes to me ... .stay (engulfment) ... .go (abandonment) ... .I try hard as hell not to push her in a direction ... .it's become an extreme lesson in patience for me.

I don't know if that answers your question Shatra

JQ

[shatra]

JQ wrote--

the battle she has with me--stay (engulfment) ... .go (abandonment) ... .

----It is possible whe will end it with current bf and try to return to you. The push-pull is a common impulse with BPD.  You wrote that she is dealing with her ex-husband's recent engagement? What feelings/reactions is this bringing up in her?

Apolltech wrote---

The reason I was asking about the "intimacy" factor was in trying to determine if his leaving was just an engulfment issue, temporary. But, unfortunately, it does appear to me that you were split black and the attachment discarded by him, not usually immediately temporary.

---I would like to understand what went wrong, and perhaps reconcile with him.  I am unclear about your question on intimacy re: engulfment? What is the connection?

   I assume I was split black when we first broke up (again, he gives no reason, i am just assuming it was because I didn't enjoy the last sex but he did, plus I got angry a week later over scheduling---so his fearing I'd abandon him since I didn't like the sex one time, plus my anger scaring him into thinking I'd leave, had him beat me to the punch and leave me).  Yet now he is telling me how much he cared and is giving me compliments (but still not reuniting). I am  not sure what you mean by "usually immediately temporary"?

Shatra

[JQ]

JQ wrote--

the battle she has with me--stay (engulfment) ... .go (abandonment) ... .

----It is possible whe will end it with current bf and try to return to you. The push-pull is a common impulse with BPD.  You wrote that she is dealing with her ex-husband's recent engagement? What feelings/reactions is this bringing up in her?

Shatra,

I reached out last night with a simple text since she told me 14 days ago she wanted to start over as "friends" so after not hearing from her for 11 days I wrote, "Hey Buddy still alive".  I wrote about my incident about being run over by a car while on my bike ride this week. She called and asked if I was ok. I said yes, I'm fine, bruises, scratches, back tweaked but happy to be alive, 1/2 second later & no more text from your friend Jack. that started an interesting conversation, where she told me for having a perception that is suppose to be pretty good your perception of me & how I feel about you is wrong. BTW, she told me when she saw the text, "Hey buddy still alive" she thought What the heck?  Hey you want to be friends ... .I thought to myself but didn't say 

I know that there is a pending break up with bf#2, & she has told me she has to build up the courage to do it and I'm trying like hell not to push her to that because that will just have her recent me for it. SO it's an exercise in patience which I look at training if I'm going to stay with her ... .only the Gods above & time will tell that. I need to go sit with a bunch of 3 year olds to get schooled in toddler logic to help with this i think.

In regards to her ex-husband engagement, I believe she is still angry that he didn't keep his commitment to her or their kids to be there no matter what, through sickness & health. It's a little complicated. She's Catholic, ex is Catholic, when they were married, HER father who was a deacon in the church stood up and was the church official who married them. Her dad died last fall from a long battle with cancer. So she in some way believes that he not only betrayed her with an affair or two or three, but the Cardinal sin of betraying her father who actually blessed their marriage in the church. Yeah ... .there's a little baggage there. SO, his engagement to new girlfriend which BTW, at one time exBPDgg worked with and now exhubby works with her in the same building. The wife to be has two kids, and exBPDgf thinks that she's going to try and take away her kids to make one big happy family like the Brady bunch ... .she's such a the wicked step mother ... .damn those Disney movies.  I'm trying to keep a since of humor here. 

SO besides bf#2, she has that to manage, along with a high stress 6 figure job. Her girls have made comments that they like the step mother to be, that she's their new "friend" that they get along with her kids and this threatens her ... .which goes back to the fear of abandonment and by her kids no less. Forget about me ... .bf#2 has made it clear that he doesn't want to deal with the drama. She lead to me to believe that he's not all that in the bedroom when I made a comment of him ravaging her body ... .she kinda let out this laugh, smirk.

That set aside, I'm trying my best to validate her concerns of the kids, her ex as best I can because she's really withholding info. I told her it's hard for me to hear you love me but you're sharing time, & weekends with him ... .what if I told you I had a date this weekend when you know i love you? How would you feel? There was this pause ... .and her tone changed like she was sad, when She told me, "I would feel like you do with me hurt" ... .at which point she told me "I love you JQ" with that tone ... .it's moments like this that make me believe she sees moments of clarity.

But the more I read and reread about BPD, their behaviors, and everything I"m putting into this relationship as I told her ... .it's one sided ... .I'm putting in all this effort, energy and i'm getting nothing back in return ... .no acknowledgement ... .no I love you ... .no nothing and there is so much a person can say or do and have so much patience before they decide that it's time to move on because whatever I'm doing it's not working ... .and I need to take care of me ... .I need to take care of my own needs, happiness.

Questions ... .thoughts ... .concerns ... .

JQ

[apollotech]

---I would like to understand what went wrong, and perhaps reconcile with him.  I am unclear about your question on intimacy re: engulfment? What is the connection?

   I assume I was split black when we first broke up (again, he gives no reason, i am just assuming it was because I didn't enjoy the last sex but he did, plus I got angry a week later over scheduling---so his fearing I'd abandon him since I didn't like the sex one time, plus my anger scaring him into thinking I'd leave, had him beat me to the punch and leave me).  Yet now he is telling me how much he cared and is giving me compliments (but still not reuniting). I am  not sure what you mean by "usually immediately temporary"?

shatra,

Emotional intimacy can sometimes trigger fear of engulfment in a pwBPD. In order to abate the engulfment, they will use methods to create distance between them and the Non, push behaviors. When fear of engulfment is triggered, it's usually a temporary situation (separation). As soon as the engulfment is lessened, fear of abandonment might set in, then the pwBPD will begin their pull behaviors to close the distance. That's the engine, as I understand it, which drives the push/pull cycle.

Splitting someone black is seeing that person as all bad. That person is now seen as an unsatisfactory bonding candidate---the pwBPD cannot bond with this person to complete their "self." In this instance, the pwBPD will abandon the attachment. It can be temporary, but not immediately, and certainly less so than the typical engulfment scenario. It can also be permanent.

If your ex is in contact with you, I'd venture that you're no longer split black (assuming you ever were). It sounds like you're split white since he's idealizing you. Since he isn't returning, is he possibly just checking to see if the attachment is still in place on your end? Is he possibly just checking for a positive response from you before he makes the commitment to return? Maybe he is getting his emotional/attachment needs met by someone else, yet he doesn't want to dissolve the attachment with you? Ultimately, what kind of signal are you sending him?

[shatra]

JG wrote---

n regards to her ex-husband engagement, I believe she is still angry that he didn't keep his commitment to her or their kids to be there no matter what,,,and she is jealous she will take the kids away...

---So your pwBPD is concerned the ex's new wife to be will take your pwBPD's kids "away"?  It sounds like she is fearful of being "abandoned" by the kids, the kids will see the new wife as a "better"  mother, and although your BPD doesn't want to be with her ex-husband she is upset that he is not committed to her anymore.  Sounds like she is jealous of the new wife taking on a mother role.

[shatra]

Apollotech wrote

Since your ex is in contact with you, I'd venture that you're no longer split black (assuming you ever were). It sounds like you're split white since he's idealizing you.

---Good analysis of the push pull. I would add that along with splitting being a trigger of push pull (they push you away when they split you black) and fear of engulfment (they push you away when they feel you are too close), that another trigger of push pull is fear of abandonment. When they fear abandonment, they either pull you in tighter (for fear of losing you) or they push you away (since they are afraid you will abandon them, so to have control and also to "beat you to the punch" they abandon you first).  THen later they pull you in, and when you get closer, they fear that the abandonment they are convinced you are going to do will hurt more since you are close and intimate, so they push you away

----Yes my ex was in touch with me, but I initiated it---I called him a couple of times after several months of NC. I have heard they feel engulfed if we do the initiating contact after a separation. He has been responsive but also said he "wishes me good luck and thinks I'll find someone better than him"... .yet I have heard of BPDs saying even more definite goodbyes than that, and returning later.

  So I am not sure if I am split black or white---he praises me but not the relationship, doesn't have a definite reason why he wanted to end it... .and I am not sure of the signal I am giving him... .I reached out to him and was irritable in the phone call and wanted to get definite answers about why he left me.  I resorted to JADE which irritated him!

Shatra

[JQ]

Shatra,

You're spot on with your assessment of the situation, IMHO    We've talked about this a few months back when her youngest came to her said "she's my new friend" & at an event she saw her daughter grab the stepmother to be's hand and walk around the corner. This as you can imagine upset her quite a bit & she called to tell me so. She expressed anger, feelings of hurt, abandonment. "She won't want me to be her mother anymore", etc. I explained to her in a very calm voice, that "Your daughter loves you, you are and always will be her mother. Nothing and no one can or will take that away."  "She's a new friend not unlike someone from school, just a little older". "kids don't understand the dynamic of all the facets of this relationship with dad, mom, dad's getting married again, etc." "Take a deep breath and know that your kids love you & no matter what you're always going to be their mom". This reassurance and the validation I gave her of her concerns seem to help calm her down, bring her down to a less stressed state, less anxiety. She thanked me for helping her understand things from a different perspective.

She called me this morning & woke me up, I'm a couple of hours ahead of her. Anyway, she proceeded to vent or in her words "ramble" on about concerns she has for her kids with the new school year and everything that comes with that. She went on to discuss her ex a little bit on how he being more a friend then a responsible parent for doing or not doing certain things. Then she went on to tell me that she can't talk to bf#2 because he doesn't want to listen to her ramble, just the fact kind of guy & lets fix it. Well if a guy has been through ANY type of relationship & had a argument or two knows that a woman NEVER wants to hear how to fix anything,  they just want to vent and want you to listen so I do.  She thanked me for letting her talk, "it was wonderful to talk to you this morning". The conversation lasted about 1 1/2 hours before she had to go to work ... .among the things talked about She also told me that bf#2 wasn't cutting it anymore, she was trying to figure out a way to break it off. Made the comment that maybe I shouldn't be telling you things about him ... .That she can't share things with him like she does with me. She told me more about her job, the kids, & other life events then I've heard in the last 6 months to be honest. I thanked her for trusting me & felt comfortable for telling to me, sharing things with me. I'm still on guard ... .I have no idea what to expect next.  She's eluded to when she breaks up with bf#2 one day that doesn't mean we're a couple the next day. I agreed and said I understand completely and that we'll cross any bridges like that if and when we come to it and take one day at a time.

If and when that day comes I'm going to let her know that we need to really address the BPD behavior and REALLY work together for a better life & future for her, but again we'll cross that road when we get to it. She tells me she is completely exhausted with worrying about the kids, the new school, the stress with the ex not being a responsible parent, the soon too be step mother to her kids, issues with bf#2, me, unpacking at the new place ... .she's overwhelmed. I used the techniques I've learned here and other places to validate her concerns & worries. " I know you have a lot on your mind and it might seem there is so much hitting you at once, but you are incredibly smart and will be able to manage these things one at a time. I understand that you are overwhelmed, but I know you'll have a plan to get things done. I'm still new at this validation thing and it seems to work so far ... .but I would LOOVE some practice or read certain phrases as part of my learned vocabulary to talk to someone with BPD. There you go, there's a million dollar idea for someone ... .write a book on what phrases that work & don't work when you talk to someone with BPD. The validation actually worked on my mother this morning when she called to talk to me. I actually used validation techniques and it worked ... .we had a civil conversation. Just need more practice ... .between an exBPD, my BPD mother & sister i might get more practice then I want 

Shatra, you've seem to have really studied this subject rather in depth and I'm liking the questions you pose & the statements you make ... .I need more please!   

JQ

[shatra]

Thank you JQ----yes I have read up on BPD quite a bit! You wrote===

She said maybe I shouldn't be telling you things about him ... .That she can't share things with him like she does with me.

----These look like feelers she is putting out to test your availability if she breaks up with current bf... .and she's comparing you/splitting you a bit whiter she can share more with you than with him.

[JQ]

Thank you JQ----yes I have read up on BPD quite a bit! You wrote===

She said maybe I shouldn't be telling you things about him ... .That she can't share things with him like she does with me.

----These look like feelers she is putting out to test your availability if she breaks up with current bf... .and she's comparing you/splitting you a bit whiter she can share more with you than with him.

Shatra,

Of course she's comparing me to bf#2, it's part of the natural order of selection process I believe. I believe we all compare one relationship to another, it's natural, part of finding the best mate, some of it is primal such as will he be a good protecter, a good provider. Looks play a part in it no matter what they might say. Lets be real, for some it's the blue eyes over brown eyes, a guy that has a cut body or a woman who has large / small breast, for a woman they might choose a guy that has hair over someone who is thin or balding thinking that they are very good for reproduction not knowing that a guy who has no hair actually has more testosterone. For some it's intellect that attract some, brain over braun. I know a woman who chooses men to date who are not all that attractive even though she is because she knows that other women won't be attracted to him and try to steal him away. A kinda of camouflage if you will. Have you ever looked at a good looking woman who's with a guy who seems not in her league or vise versa?

I know that she's now painting him blacker and me whiter because she's not getting what she wants in the relationship so she's told me. She's told me that he's about vanilla sex and I'm ... .and well I'm not. I told her in part it's the connection we have that increases the intensity, passion and other things.  Once again she called me again this morning to "ramble" about her concerns, fears, about kids, exhubby, step mother to be, etc. then she asked me do you listen to me ramble because it's who you are, "a nice guy" or because you actually do love me?  I said after nearly 3 years of back and forth that questions should be self explanatory, but yes I do love you.

Here's a question for you Shatra that I think about bouncing around in my head. I try to read and find a answer ... .I think I have a couple of ideas but let me throw this at you doc    ;-)   So, bf3 she had a year long thing with, coworker after her divorce, on again off again, was in a "committed" relationship with him. After her and I split, she restarted to see him, introduced him to the kids, promises were made, she bought a house for them within months of starting to date again. "they had history". Within months of him moving into the house, she never did, they split up for what I'm told is for good. He doesn't have a job, she was paying rent, the house payment, his and hers living expense. Finally sold the house but lost thousands of dollars on it not to mention the money she spent to support him. Enter bf#2, she has a year long "committed" relationship with him to where she's calls him her boyfriend as well. Now for 3 years we've seen each other on the fringe of the other two relationships, but she's never wanted to commit to a monogamous exclusive relationship with me. As I've said she has told me she' said, "O you know how afraid I am to get everything I want in a relationship with you?"  "o you know how scared I am that I'm going to ask you to be with me, then do something to screw it up and you leave?"  So, why is it she can be in a "committed" relationship with the other two, but is hesitant to enter into that type with me? Again, I have my thoughts doc but would like yours & any of the groups opinion if you care to share your thoughts.

JQ

[shatra]

J wrote

bf3 she had a year long thing with, coworker after her divorce, on again off again, was in a "committed" relationship with him. After her and I split, she restarted to see him, introduced him to the kids, promises were made, she bought a house for them within months of starting to date again. "they had history

---what do u mean by on and off? do you mean they had actual breaks/breakups and reconciliations. or do you mean they only saw each other sometimes, not every single day?

--She restarted tos ee him at that point---so she stopped with him, then sawyou, and then after you 2 split, she went back toh im? ANd now she is trying to recycle with you again---is that what is happening?

---What is different about you than the other 2 people where she won't commit to you?

[JQ]

J wrote

bf3 she had a year long thing with, coworker after her divorce, on again off again, was in a "committed" relationship with him. After her and I split, she restarted to see him, introduced him to the kids, promises were made, she bought a house for them within months of starting to date again. "they had history

---what do u mean by on and off? do you mean they had actual breaks/breakups and reconciliations. or do you mean they only saw each other sometimes, not every single day?

--She restarted tos ee him at that point---so she stopped with him, then sawyou, and then after you 2 split, she went back toh im? ANd now she is trying to recycle with you again---is that what is happening?

---What is different about you than the other 2 people where she won't commit to you?

Shatra,

They were seeing each other for a few months and he called it off since he was actually senior to her in the company and didn't want to cause issues. That is when she made contact with me and we started our thing. I was going through a divorce at the time not living with the ex but as long as their was a piece of paper that said we were she didn't want to interfere since her exhubby had a couple of affairs and she of course didn't want to be the other woman. So bf3 was fired from where he worked and she started to see him again since it wasn't a work conflict. Once she was all in and saw what he was really like ... .I'm told he was a raging alcoholic that has intimacy issues / the drinking causes performance issues. So she reached out to me again and I was still hammering out the details of the divorce and she still didn't want to get involved with a "Married man" so she moved on to bf2 who she is currently seeing now for the past year.

Now that I'm divorced she's still seeing bf2 but is now doing what she's doing ... .reengaging, talking to me, sharing with me details of her life since bf2 doesn't want to deal with the day to day drama that to young girls come with. As I said, his kids are out of the house several years and he's in the mode that he's at the point of his life that he is set in his ways, not open to change and wants to have drama free fun on his terms.

I offer things in a partner that she's been wanting, looking for, admires, etc. I actually care what she's thinking, when she talks to me about the things that are in her day to day life I see fear, I see joy, I see anxiety, I see what stresses her and I see what makes her laugh. I actually see the person who she is ... .at least I hope I do. My ex told me when were deciding to stay or divorce a couple of things that really had me shaking my head what?   She is a very negative person & for 15 years I've supported her, encourage her but always she came back with a backhanded negative comment. I told her I can't do it anymore, you're negative person, always negative views, thoughts. She looks at me and tells me "I know I'm a negative person, it's who I am, you're trying to change me!" ... .through counseling I was told that when  a person is that negative about everything that they are not happy in their life or who they are and told her that in a counseling session. She said that I'm not the person you married ... .I pretended to be the person you wanted me to be ... .I haven't been my true self".  What the hell am I suppose to say to that?

I digress, SOO ... .Why am I different? Good question ... .when she called and woke me up at 3 am this morning and she started to "ramble" she told me that I was one of maybe 4 people that knew everything about her, the child abuse from big brother / sister, her BPD, everything. She's told me that I actually know more about her then her best friend from college ... .so she tells me. SO from what I see she trust me more than any other bf in her life current or pass including 2 ex-husbands.  We're very in sink with sex, beliefs, we talk about anything and everything including alien life, God, and silly things like is a animal cracker a cookie or a cracker?  

She told me that she trusted her second ex-husband to be there for the family and was severely betrayed. They didn't really have a sex life she tells me and he was always absent doing things with friends ... .more social then her. She likes to stay home and do things with the family, he wanted to go party with friends. So she continues to ask me in round about wanting to stay at home with the family or be out with friends? Again comparing me to someone who she thought she was going to live her life with. She continues to ask me questions, telling me things, so I guess I'm still passing test ... .YEAH ME!    

Lately I'm asking myself at my age where I'm slowing down, not climbing the corporate ladder and wanting to enjoy the smaller things in life then going all out in the rat race. Do I really want to take on this life I might be embarking on with a s/o who has BPD ... .do I really want to spend the rest of my life, day to day dealing with rages, projection, triangulation, continue to set boundaries and reenforce them. And I guess I have to ask myself that I've asked others do you / Do I really want to spend extra energy / time / effort / my soul / my heart for a lifetime.

JQ