Married: Intimacy - How?

[Keep]

A question for the married folks, I guess... .

I have been married to my BPD wife for 25 yrs. 

From the beginning I knew something was wrong.  I saw this terrible behavior in her mom while we were dating, but had no idea what it was.  Of course the wife never exhibited this while we were dating so this would never happen to me... .

Fast forward to today.  We have been intimate probably 5 times in the last 15 yrs.  I am guessing twice in the last 5.  Every once in awhile when she "lets  go" in one of her really epic attacks she screams that "we never have sex anymore.  You don't desire me or love me.  You don't do anything to make me feel loved!" 

Ok.  I know she has mental issues.  But to her, it is all my fault (classic BPD response).  Is she saying she wants sex... .but how is that even possible for the 'normal' spouse? 

Intimacy is just that.  Sharing lives, fears, frustrations, dreams.  Being safe and secure with the one who returns that love.  Not punishing but forgiving knowing that you, too, are flawed and will fail repeatedly. 

This type of life not possible with a BPD spouse.  Long story short: How do marrieds deal with the subject of intimacy? 

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[Wrongturn1]

Hello, Keep - 25 years is a long time... .you must be one tough cookie to stay so long.  I've been married to my uBPDw for 18 years, and I guess I'm lucky in that she has never withheld for more than about a month at a time. 

From what I've read around here, withholding sex/intimacy seems common for people with BPD.  Maybe it's something that they have the ability to control that inflicts pain on others, so they do it in an attempt to soothe their inner pain.  Maybe similar to someone with anorexia, but in this case, the intimacy-starved partner also suffers.

In my relationship, things improved drastically in the sex/intimacy department after I learned to validate and abandoned some of my old, codependent habits.  We can't control our spouses who have BPD, but we can control our actions and attitudes.  A lot of the time, when we clean up our side of the street, our BPD spouses improve as the dynamic changes.

As a positive example/success story, my uBPDw just started working a new job last month (first time she has been employed in the past 12 years), and we had sex 4 times in the past week, so things are really in a positive phase around our home lately.  This came only after I discovered BPD in 2011 and worked hard for years at radical acceptance, reading (things like the "Eggshells" book, "When Hope is Not Enough", "The New Codependency", etc.), validating, normalizing, avoiding JADE, etc.

[SweetCharlotte]

I wonder if it is mainly female pwBPD who don't go for intimacy with their partner. My uBPDh has always wanted intimacy--except of course if he is stonewalling me or giving me the silent treatment. What he withholds from me is money, by wasting his own and causing me to pick up the tab for more of our shared expenses.

I feel bad for husbands/lovers of female pwBPD who have to live without physical affection because of the circumstances of their r/s. I can't imagine being with someone for years without a sex life. It would make me so resentful, and I have recently "let fly" with my uBPDh as it is. Without sex now and then, there would be very little to look forward to in a r/s.

Do you feel that you are turned off by her? No desire for her because of things happening changing your perception of her? I don't know if a sea change like that can be reversed.

On the other hand, if you just haven't attempted intimacy because you thought that she would reject you, and you want to give it a try now, there are things that you can do. Try going away on a romantic weekend (without too much pressure on her); even a romantic day trip where you stop to smell the roses and make out a little, have dinner at a cozy restaurant (with some wine) and continue home for "dessert."

[Moselle]

Keep, that certainly is a tough situation to be in after 25 years.

From what I understand, intimacy or more accurately the fear of it, is at the heart of BPD, as is the fear of abandonment.

What are the things that you value in your marriage of 25 years?

[TBirdy]

I'm so sorry you are struggling with intimacy issues.  I was married 47 year to a man with BPD and recently divorced.  I know you are looking for answers that will help you navigate these difficult relationship waters with your wife.  She feels scared, rejected, lonely, vulnerable all at the same time and looks to you to take that away.  But, here's what I've learned after 47 years.  You cannot fix that for her.  You MUST take care of yourself and give to your dear wife what you can give out of strength, otherwise you give out of desperation and both of you are depleted in the process.  Nothing will make sense.  Mental illness does not make sense.  While you love her with all your heart, you must protect yourself with all your might. Otherwise, you will be pulled under with her.  Buoy yourself up with a trusted counselor.  I LOVED my BPD husband of 47 years, but, I was drowning in our marriage.  He carries the banner that 'I divorced him after almost 48 years of marriage'.  I still love him, but reality is, YOU MUST take care of yourself or you both will drown.  God's blessing to you and your wife.

[Keep]

Thanks so much for the honest replies, everyone.

For me it is the attacks, punishment, and un-forgiveness that has killed all desire in me.  She blames me for everything wrong that has ever happened.  When we were in counseling (she has since quit though I continue) I said several times that I was truly sorry for my mistakes, and that I wanted to do better.   I asked her to help me.  In front of our therapist she said that she would never forgive me  and that she would never help me.  Later, privately, the counselor said in all her career of 30+ years she had never seen one spouse completely reject the other's remorse like this.  Sad.

The problem is that I continue to fail.  We all do.  I know I am better in many ways (my counselor has agreed), but if I fail at ANY point in ANYTHING I am painted black and that is the end of that. 

I have used up nearly all the emotional energy I have to keep coming back after repeated attacks.  I know she realizes her behavior is wrong from several comments she makes ("I know I am a b___.  I am just waiting for God to strike me down for what I have done".  Even so I feel guilty that it is all my fault.  I know it is not (I am working on that), but it is just so hard to stay strong after awhile.  The life is sucked right out of you.

Sometimes she is the sweetest person (like she was when we met), but that can change in a microsecond.   I am sticking with the relationship for my 12yr old son (who loves her dearly despite being attacked by her like I am). 

Sorry for the incoherent ramble.  I guess that comes with the BPD territory, doesn't it?  As I mentioned in my first post I just cannot see how a normal married relationship (love, trust, security, companionship, sharing) can happen with this disease.  Because of this sex is just not possible.  To me it would feel like being with a prostitute.  I long for a normal relationship so much, but I don't see the hope right now.

Sigh.  I suppose once the son moves out it is divorce for us.  A very sad way to end (and spend) the best years of a human life. 

[Wrongturn1]

In front of our therapist she said that she would never forgive me  and that she would never help me.  Later, privately, the counselor said in all her career of 30+ years she had never seen one spouse completely reject the other's remorse like this.  Sad.

Wow, that sounds extremely cruel and harsh on her part.  I'm guessing the "mistakes" she refuses to forgive you for are in reality relatively minor slip-ups that would be easily forgiven and forgotten in the context of a marriage to a mentally healthy wife.  People with BPD tend to latch onto any wrongdoing by their spouse and blame all of their unhappiness on those things - this blaming allows them not to take responsibility for their own emotional well-being.

Even so I feel guilty that it is all my fault.  I know it is not (I am working on that), but it is just so hard to stay strong after awhile. 

Keep focusing your energy working on this.  At one point, I actually believed my uBPDw's distorted reality that I was the cause of all of her pain in life.  Once I learned about the disorder, I learned to stop taking the blaming and accusations personally.  After all, she suffers from a severe mental illness, so I did not cause and cannot control her emotional state.  Shedding all of that blame was a huge load off my shoulders that made life a lot easier.

[SweetCharlotte]

From what I have read, you have no desire for her, and no wish to reconnect intimately.

She would like to have a love life, however.

So, you will need to let her go.

Like many longtime husbands of less than functional women, you might not relish the idea of splitting your assets with her.

Just remember that this is the law; you cannot try to abbreviate her life.

[ColdEthyl]

I wonder if it is mainly female pwBPD who don't go for intimacy with their partner.

No, it's not. Me and other women married to BPD men have similar issues. For me, mine has a mental hold up about our age difference (I'm 14 years younger) so he gets into this thing where he says he's "too old" (he's 49) for sex and such.

For 2 years, it was once every couple of months, with mixed results of if he was able to 'complete the action'. But, finally I was able to get him to go to the doc and get in Viagra, so now it's about twice a month, which I am perfectly OK with.

He's still having some trouble finishing, but he's got a lot of mental baggage he's putting on himself.

The bottom line is... .intimacy is difficult for pwBPD. Most of them have been abused, sometimes sexually so that adds even more layers to it. I just keep working and talking with him. I've been frustrated, angry, felt too ugly/too fat/maybe he's tired of me/what's wrong with me to OK... .Now I get it.  He puts so much negative stuff on himself, and tries so hard not to 'fail', that he does... .in fact... .'fail'. I tell him what I think and feel (having a physical issue doesn't make him any less of a man in my eyes) but ultimately it's about that internal recorder they have in their heads.

[Anise]

No, it's not. Me and other women married to BPD men have similar issues.

My uBPDh has similar issues.  I finally got so tired of all the rejection and hurt and being forced to carry the entire flag for the relationship that I told him he could ask me whenever he wanted to and I would say yes.  That was in late May.  He hasn't ever asked me once.

He will claim that I "put it all" on him.  Well, sort of.  When I repeatedly ask, in many different ways, for over a year (we will be married for two years in November), and am either rejected or am faced with a reluctant/uninterested partner, why should I keep putting myself out there?

[Cloudy Days]

I don't have the physical intimacy problem as my husband seems to want it constantly, but I must mention that it is very mechanical and in no way a loving physical relationship, there is no emotion in it. I think he uses it as a distraction more than anything. I find it hard to turn my emotions off enough to partake in the act so he gets shut down much more than he asks for it. I don't really feel like we have any intimacy. Any feelings that are shared are his feelings, I am just there listening as any feelings I share are not heard or they are demonized and then after an explosion are ignored. I have wondered for a long time how I can stay in a relationship where there is no intimacy. For me it is emotional intimacy that is missing and it really is something I crave from him but I know the moment I get something like that I will be turned black, because it triggers his push away responses.

[Keep]

Cloudy (and others),

I really do understand where you are coming from.

You know, healthy folks admit their mistakes, ask for forgiveness, try to do better, and life goes on.  My wife simply cannot do any of these.  Repeatedly I tell my counselor, if she would only honestly try, that would change everything.  I know I fail.  I admit it and try to do those things just mentioned.  She cannot (or will not).  That poisons everything.  That and when she hypocritically attacks everyone around her.

Can a person be that prideful, fearful(?) that she cannot do these things?  I think she knows (at some level) that her behavior is wrong, but instead of admitting it, she blames everyone else (basically me).  What hope is there if this becomes the norm?

[shatra]

ethyl wrote---

He's still having some trouble finishing, but he's got a lot of mental baggage he's putting on himself.

---Is that due to age, or due to his mental baggage or something else? I have read it can be age

[Cloudy Days]

ethyl wrote---

He's still having some trouble finishing, but he's got a lot of mental baggage he's putting on himself.

---Is that due to age, or due to his mental baggage or something else? I have read it can be age

I can attest that mental baggage can also cause this. At one time my husband was waiting to find out if he was going to spend 5 years in jail and we asked for Viagra to combat the side effects of basically the mental stress on not knowing. After the fact things went back to normal.

[Dragon72]

My BPD wife now goes to bed at 7pm upstairs in our 2 year old son's bedroom after putting him down to sleep.  That leaves me downstairs with just the TV/Computer/books for company.  I'm very lonely and crave intimacy.

When I kiss our son goodnight, I almost always ask my wife if she's going to come downstairs and spend time with me before going to bed. She always says no "I'm too tired" or "I need to be with our son as he has a cough" or "I just want to go to sleep" or some other excuse.

Sometimes, though, she will appear downstairs an hour or so later and ask me if I want sex.  Of course I do.  I am a man.  And I crave intimacy with my wife. Plus that crumb gets thrown to me so infrequently, I tend to want to grab it while I can.  So we have not quite passionless vanilla sex (she doesn't like giving or receiving oral "it's dirty" and after we finish it's a 5 minute spoon, then she slinks off back to sleep in our son's room.

But what gets to me the most is not the sex part, it's the lack of non-sexual intimacy.  I want to be able to curl up with her in front of the TV and joke about that actor's hairdo. 

Can I reasonably expect to establish my need for her to spend time with me as a "boundary"?  If so, what should be the consequence of the boundary not being respected?  Or am I just be wasting my time to expect any intimacy from her [apart from occasional sex] and get used to spending most evenings solo on the sofa?

[flourdust]

But what gets to me the most is not the sex part, it's the lack of non-sexual intimacy.  I want to be able to curl up with her in front of the TV and joke about that actor's hairdo. 

Can I reasonably expect to establish my need for her to spend time with me as a "boundary"?  If so, what should be the consequence of the boundary not being respected?  Or am I just be wasting my time to expect any intimacy from her [apart from occasional sex] and get used to spending most evenings solo on the sofa?

Hi, Dragon. I'm new here and still working on learning about boundaries myself. I understand what you mean about wanting companionship. My wife and I used to at least be able to hang out most evenings and watch TV or something, but now we mostly retreat to our separate havens.

I don't think that your need for her to spend time with you qualifies as a boundary. A boundary is something that you have to be able to control -- your own actions and reactions. My own boundaries are "I won't tolerate being called names," and "I won't tolerate being screamed at." If my boundaries I violated, I can take actions to restore them -- usually, by leaving the person (my wife) who is doing the name-calling or screaming. It's not a consequence, in that I'm not doing it to punish her -- I'm doing it to protect myself. Does that help at all?

[Dragon72]

Thanks flourdust.  Yes it makes it clear, thanks. 

It's so confusing to be in a relationship where my wife is emotionally so jealous and controlling and yet she appears to want to spend so little 1-to-1 time with me. 

[ColdEthyl]

No, it's not. Me and other women married to BPD men have similar issues.

My uBPDh has similar issues.  I finally got so tired of all the rejection and hurt and being forced to carry the entire flag for the relationship that I told him he could ask me whenever he wanted to and I would say yes.  That was in late May.  He hasn't ever asked me once.

He will claim that I "put it all" on him.  Well, sort of.  When I repeatedly ask, in many different ways, for over a year (we will be married for two years in November), and am either rejected or am faced with a reluctant/uninterested partner, why should I keep putting myself out there?

I also offered that... .and I got the same answer of me 'putting it all on him'. Word for word. He also said he wanted me to be more aggressive, this n that and when I did those things, it was still weird and didn't help.

I just kept talking and talking and talking with him until he got comfortable. All sorts of things ran through his head, but the biggest thing with pwBPD is why try if there's a chance of failure? That's how they see it.


@Shatra:

ethyl wrote---

He's still having some trouble finishing, but he's got a lot of mental baggage he's putting on himself.

---Is that due to age, or due to his mental baggage or something else? I have read it can be age

It could be, but there's some identifiers, there. For one, in the beginning everything was pretty hot and heavy with no issues. It became a snowball effect. He had one day where he couldn't finish, that messed him up mentally, then another... .then he started doubting himself... .trying to hard, making it worse... .

You can see how it goes from there. Also, a big indicator of ED is if they can get morning wood or not. (sorry if im being too graphic) If they can and do, they probably don't have ED. My husband has no problem here.

In fact... .give this a shot. The past few times we had sex I initiated in the morning. He had no problems, we used no pills. He said it was good because he didn't have time to think and screw it up.

He's been afraid that because I don't orgasm just vaginally (most women don't) that he wasn't good or doing it good. (My guess here is he might have had some fakers to avoid this in his other relationships) Every time he doesn't finish he's mad at himself, doesn't feel like a man, embarrassed, and doesn't want to try anymore. He's blamed me in addition to "you need to be more aggressive" he also would say "it's your fault for marrying someone older than you, it's what you get"

After over a year of getting every excuse in the book, he was finally able to admit that it was his thinking. He knows it's wrong... .but he still fears and thinks this way. That's due to his mental health. The boards here helped me through a lot of this. I probably made 5-6 threads asking everyone if it was me... .was I crazy... .what's going on, etc.

[shatra]

Yes Cloudy days mental baggage can interfere with sexual enjoyment

Coldethyl---it almost sounds as if you are describing his stress level or insecurity interfering with erection... .I thought your earlier post described it  (stress or age) interfering with and delaying the male orgasm (finishing)?

[ColdEthyl]

Cloudy (and others),

I really do understand where you are coming from.

You know, healthy folks admit their mistakes, ask for forgiveness, try to do better, and life goes on.  My wife simply cannot do any of these.  Repeatedly I tell my counselor, if she would only honestly try, that would change everything.  I know I fail.  I admit it and try to do those things just mentioned.  She cannot (or will not).  That poisons everything.  That and when she hypocritically attacks everyone around her.

Can a person be that prideful, fearful(?) that she cannot do these things?  I think she knows (at some level) that her behavior is wrong, but instead of admitting it, she blames everyone else (basically me).  What hope is there if this becomes the norm?

For a person wBPD, admitting fault means they are flawed. If they are flawed, no one will want them. This leads right back to abandonment issues. I took me about a year and a half and I still got work to do, but my husband has gone from never admitting fault even if the evidence was right in his face to not only admitting fault, but apologizing for bad behavior.

The only change is communication... .learning to speak in a way that they don't feel invalidated, and that their ideas have merit. The lessons in this site help tremendously.

@Dragon72 have you spoke her about how you feel at all? What does she say?

I think for pwBPD you are going to have a hard time getting a 'normal' level of intimacy no matter what you do. Remember, we are talking about a mental illness, here. There are limitations. But, everything can be worked on and improved.

[ColdEthyl]

Yes Cloudy days mental baggage can interfere with sexual enjoyment

Coldethyl---it almost sounds as if you are describing his stress level or insecurity interfering with erection... .I thought your earlier post described it  (stress or age) interfering with and delaying the male orgasm (finishing)?

Maintaining the erection and finishing. Sometimes, he would get halfies, but most of the time the problem is completing the act or even trying altogether before we got Viagra.

[shatra]

Now I understand thanks for clarifying

[Keep]

Many thanks for all who have responded.

My son and I have so much love to give.  We pray continually she will get better and be set free.  I have been in therapy for several years and I share age-appropriate information with him as approved by my T.  He loves his mom and does not want to attend T quite yet.  He does listen and says he understands what ideas we discuss.

In our case me (the male)... .I don't think I could respond intimately to her anymore. 

Marriage is based on love, trust, sharing, vulnerability, and security.  Those with BPD have none of those traits.  I am not sure they have any idea what any of those mean.  In my experience BPDs 'flip' in a microsecond and destroy you (verbally, emotionally, physically) anytime, anywhere.

How can anyone be intimate with something like that? 

[ColdEthyl]

"Marriage is based on love, trust, sharing, vulnerability, and security.  Those with BPD have none of those traits.  I am not sure they have any idea what any of those mean.  In my experience BPDs 'flip' in a microsecond and destroy you (verbally, emotionally, physically) anytime, anywhere.

How can anyone be intimate with something like that?"

I disagree with this statement. My husband does know what trust, sharing, vulnerability and security are. He has broken down and sharing things with me he hasn't with other people. He feels the most secure and safe in our relationship than he has in any other.

BPD is a disorder that the suffer has trouble regulating emotions. If they have trouble regulating emotions... .of course sometimes they 'flip' in a microsecond. One feeling does not negate the other.

[ForeverDad]

My BPD wife now goes to bed at 7pm upstairs in our 2 year old son's bedroom after putting him down to sleep.  That leaves me downstairs with just the TV/Computer/books for company.  I'm very lonely and crave intimacy.

When I kiss our son goodnight, I almost always ask my wife if she's going to come downstairs and spend time with me before going to bed. She always says no "I'm too tired" or "I need to be with our son as he has a cough" or "I just want to go to sleep" or some other excuse.

Sometimes, though, she will appear downstairs an hour or so later and ask me if I want sex... .and after we finish... .then she slinks off back to sleep in our son's room.

Well, when that happened to me, my marriage imploded.  My spouse had over the years gradually gotten worse in her behaviors over all with others but after our son's birth, I concluded, she became very critical, hyper-vigilant and paranoid about everyone 'probably' being abusers.  (She had a bad childhood besides whatever else went wrong.)  I escaped being rejected at first since she had others to drive away but increasingly between us it seemed she couldn't love both husband/father and her child and so I lost.

Hopefully, that's not what is driving your spouse but do be aware that she may be not only viewing 'her' child as an extension of herself but also increasing choosing the child over the spouse.