Always on the brink

[Setter Rob]

I am 70, my wife 55—vigorous for our ages--and we’ve been married over thirty years. It was a wonderful passionate marriage. She never worked outside the home or had children, and we reveled in our time together. In later years, however, borderline traits she displayed early on have dominated her behavior. She is critical, complaining, moody, detail-obsessive, anxious, talks incessantly, is needy and touchy and sets contradictory expectations and endless “rules.”  She insists we sleep apart because I disturb her, but even alone she sleeps terribly, which puts her at risk of seizures. Her level of projection is extraordinarily high and includes the question of violence. To others, she mostly appears to be the caring, charismatic person that she also is.

Therapy has extricated me from complete absorption in the marriage, and now she thinks I’m curt and distant, grumpy and depressive. Her defenses are so high she takes a plea for change as an attack. She refuses to go back to individual and couples therapy. And for years she has refused sex, yet we have both been faithful.

We have had three separations, from six weeks to nine months, the last at my insistence. I have been back over a year; the bad stuff has decreased, but good stuff has not increased, and my health is suffering (blood pressure, acid reflux, hyper-ventilation, and more). We are still together because we love each other so much, share a rich history, and neither gives up easily. There are good times—intermittent reinforcement is so powerful—but I foresee a withering span of sexless years if I stay, and yet I somehow can’t step into the abyss.

[formflier]

 

So... .are you still actively in T?  Tell us about what you and your T have come up with for you?

Can you give me a detailed example of a recent exchange where she claimed you were curt, distant and grumpy.

"pleading" is usually not good... .give us another example of a plea for change and how that went.

You usually need to prepare them to hear... .SET is a good format... .

After they are prepared... .focus on solutions.

FF

[Setter Rob]

Yes, I have a wonderful therapist, whose first seven years of a thirty year practice was spent at UCLA Medical working with personality disorders. She is incisive, but non-directive. "No point in telling patients what to do; they'll do what they want anyway." She has pointed out many things I could say or do to make my position clear, and some of them I actually remember in the heat of the moment. She also says that breaking up is a process, not an event, and that it's taking me as long as it needs to. She has suggested therapists and a psychiatrist for my wife, but I have gotten nowhere with her. One superb couples therapist I tried to get to see us said she didn't have the chops to handle the situation.

Example of grumpy: We were recently on a road trip with our two big active dogs. We stopped, and I was trying to get a leash on one and a special bridle on the other as they were both raring to jump out. My wife knew what I was doing, but from the other side of the SUV she asked me to hand her the car keys. (Of course she had her own set within reach.) I couldn't answer at first because of what I was doing. She repeated the request. I muttered, "I will when I'm done here." Later I was told I was curt and could have been much more gentle with her.

Request for change ("plea" was perhaps too whiney a word): I need more elbowroom, mental and physical.To start with the physical, now and then I make a little request for a small change in household arrangements, like this: She crams the large refrigerator with food and leftovers to the point that stuff is stacked on top of stuff on top of stuff, and then complains she can't find anything because of how sloppily I put things back. When we returned from our road trip, the fridge was relatively empty. I asked if we might stock up not so much so as to keep it neat. In return I heard a long screed on how I don't appreciate what she does and how I'm just trying to avoid doing my job around the house.

Thanks, formfiler.

[formflier]

 

Listen... .use active listening... .confirm what you heard.

Then ask her for a solution... .keep driving back to the solution.

FF

[Setter Rob]

This is great advice. I have at times tried it. Often what I get back is--"YOU think of a solution!" And then any one I propose is rejected. I'm exhausted.

[formflier]

This is great advice. I have at times tried it. Often what I get back is--"YOU think of a solution!" And then any one I propose is rejected. I'm exhausted.

She is the one upset... and wants a change... .let her propose a solution. 

That doesn't work...

So give her two options... .let her chose one.

Once it is obvious that she will not chose... .

Let her know she has been heard, you are ready to compromise... .and that you will try to support her taking care of herself.

FF

[Setter Rob]

Still here and trying, though last night and this morning almost ended it.

I will take your advice, FF.

Thanks,

Rob

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Rob, Suggest you focus on your needs, not hers.  What is your gut feeling?  Do you see things changing?  What is the right path for You?  LuckyJim

[Setter Rob]

LuckyJim--

Things have not changed much in the last year and a half, so I don't see a brighter future. I could have a peaceful but exciting rest of my life without her, but it is hard to jettison 32 years. I know that leaving would not destroy my memories of the good times, and that I am mostly building up bad memories now, treading water at best. I have never been one to pay much attention to dates, but something about turning 70 in September shocked me into looking hard at my (I hope many) remaining years. Plus, I am bored. Her formerly wide range of interests has contracted severely around herself, and she does not want to hear serious stuff about how we could get along better--she takes it as my piling blame upon her no matter how practically I try to phrase calls for real work on the marriage. Plus, I'd like to get laid again before I die.

Setter Rob

[formflier]

 

Let's be practical here for a bit.

The list of things you expressed you would like to do... .can be done without involving her... .correct?

Control what you control... .that is you!

Invite her along.  Make plans so that if she pitches a fit... you can continue with plans.  Perhaps you drive separately... .or... .whatever.  If she regularly messes things up... .make plans that don't involve her.

Let her "take it" how she wants.  You can quickly validate how she takes it... .unless it is completely invalid... .but then move along.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

We are still together because we love each other so much, share a rich history, and neither gives up easily. There are good times—intermittent reinforcement is so powerful—but I foresee a withering span of sexless years if I stay, and yet I somehow can’t step into the abyss.

You have improved things somewhat with therapy for yourself. Your wife appears to be resistant to therapy and also to change.

You describe her being abusive and controlling. Working on yourself, you can minimize or eliminate the impact of that upon yourself. Mostly through boundary enforcement on your part.

That alone will not bring you more of the "good side" of your wife, even though it can protect you from the bad side. More work on your side of the relationship--validation and other tools will (most likely) lead to overall improvement there, although as you get better at boundary enforcement, it would be normal for her to try to escalate and punish you any way she can during the adjustment period.


You mention sexless years ahead and being faithful. This issue is clearly important to you. There are the obvious options.

Stay with her and stay in a sexless marriage. (You know how that one is going!)

Leave her and to look for a new relationship (with sex). However there is history and other things you value in your marriage, and throwing all that away just for the chance at sex is really hard to do.

A better option would be to ask her for permission to have sex with other women--under the premise that it is completely fair for her to not have sex, and you won't force her, but she doesn't have the right to force celibacy upon you. This is a hard option to consider for normal non-BPD people, and likely beyond the pale for your wife. I honestly can't see a measurable chance of a good outcome to this for you.

The other option is that you could decide that living without sex is too high a price for being faithful to her. This is clearly a messy option, and I don't even propose it for many people. Your situation is unusual. Do you want to explore this possibility?  (If so, I've got more thoughts about it)

[formflier]

A better option would be to ask her for permission to have sex with other women--under the premise that it is completely fair for her to not have sex, and you won't force her, but she doesn't have the right to force celibacy upon you.

Has any sort of conversation around these lines been had?

Even one without asking for permission to have sex with other women?

"Help me understand how I get my sexual desires met?"   

Note... .if you haven't had this conversation... .we should chat about it... a lot... .her first (before trying)

FF

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Rob, You deserve to have a normal sex life, unless you live in a monastery, so I think you need to figure this out.  Maybe a trial separation would give you a chance to re-assess your relationship?   LuckyJim

[Grey Kitty]

A better option would be to ask her for permission to have sex with other women--under the premise that it is completely fair for her to not have sex, and you won't force her, but she doesn't have the right to force celibacy upon you.

Has any sort of conversation around these lines been had?

I gotta be blunt and direct. Please don't have this conversation with your wife.

If your marriage was long, healthy, had no codependency, no BPD, no abuse, no other issues and just this one, that conversation could blow up the marriage never to have it come back together the same way. However in those circumstances, there is the possibility of opening the door to a non-traditional way of saving the good parts of the marriage. Especially if the wife already acknowledged that her loss of desire for sex was putting her husband in a difficult position, and she felt about it, even though she still didn't want sex.

How you describe your marriage has me writing off any chance for a good outcome. Even if your wife says out loud that she thinks you should go have sex with somebody else, any mention you make of it is a horrible risk, and cannot recommend it.

I brought it up not as a viable option for you--I brought it up as a thought experiment. As a way to examine your own feelings about the situation. Please use it that way if it helps you.

[Setter Rob]

FormFiler--

Thanks for staying with this. I do some independent planning, but could do a lot more. I'll try.

Rob

[Setter Rob]

We are both extremely monogamous, and the first two-thirds or three-quarters of the marriage were very hot, with some dry spells for various reasons. I have no interest in staying with her if I am to pursue other women. In my bachelor days, i got around a bit, and those pleasant memories haunt me. I want to be wanted, and I have a lot of affection to give.

I agree, a suggestion of my tom-catting would blow things up. Right now she enjoys making sly jokes about how I must be taking care of myself, and I am ready to tell her to mind her own business. She has, by the way, bought a few sex toys, and they sit unused in the boxes.

I do not see a good outcome here. One therapist said my wife was the toughest patient she'd ever had. I try, as they say in Tai Chi, to stay within my own structure but that is difficult with a spouse who is always coming at you from one direction or another and claiming that every attack is only a lighthearted attempt to draw me out of my depression (which is situational, not chronic--I am naturally a buoyant chap).