Saying 'sorry'

[Lifewriter16]

Hi Everyone,

Well, I'm back on staying, but I'll save the details of that for another time because I actually have something specific that I want to post about.

This morning, I triggered my BPDbf. I stood back, stayed calm, used plenty of SET and eventually, he calmed down and I felt really pleased with myself.

Then he said, "Can I suggest that next time this happens, avoid the therapy and analysis and just say sorry?" Well, I could feel that telling me to say sorry was triggering me. I could feel the resistance and the urge to fight with him welling up inside me. When I told my BPDbf that I wasn't willing to accept the blame, he just said there is no blame here, that sorry just diffuses the situation and we're both going to make mistakes, like the tables had suddenly been turned and he was now the healthier one.

So what's it about? Why do I think saying sorry is the equivalent to accepting the blame? To me, saying sorry is like saying that it was my fault. I try so hard to not make mistakes. I feel like I've spent my life being blamed for things that weren't my fault, yet I can't tell you why I feel that way, except that I was the one who was reprimanded by my mother for things that went wrong between me and my brothers. I remember her telling me that I should know better because I was the eldest.

How do you feel about blame or saying sorry? Is this been a trigger for you or if it was and you have managed to sidestep it, how did you do that?

Oh, and if you'd like to explain how it's possible to say sorry without accepting the blame, I'd appreciate that, because I just don't get it.

Love Lifewriter

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[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

"I'm sorry" implies remorse... .You can be sad the argument happened, but if you're sorry then there's some action on your part you feel remorseful about.

I get the opposite... .my uBPDw will say she's sorry, but that's just a tool to restart the discussion and repeat (I mean clarify  ) her complaints.

I think it's his way of shifting the blame.

[Lifewriter16]

Thanks, IsItHerOrIsItMe. I think it's his way of shifting the blame (and then denying that he's doing so) too. However, I want to be open to the possibility that I'm wrong in this... .and that there is something that I can learn here.

Lifewriter x

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

We all struggle to not "validate the invalid"... .I think this is just another flavor of that.

You can say "I'm sorry we had a fight", but are you really portraying an honest account of your thinking? 

Yes, it's technically true, but it doesn't really portray a complete and accurate account of your thoughts.

[Lifewriter16]

Come to think of it, I think it's his way of circumventing the whole challenge I was posing to his schema mode, specifically the punitive parent that tells him he is unworthy of love.

Looking on the bright side, we both did really well this morning. We had a text discussion (usually risky) about a very difficult subject (his history of domestic violence) without him threatening to leave. He was able to tell me he was cross with me without cancelling our next date and I was able to challenge his belief that we were fighting by telling him that I had felt calm. He chose to avoid starting an altercation when I pointed that out. I got to tell him of my fears about the possibility that he could be violent towards me rather than distance myself from him. And we are now back on good terms. I think that's quite an achievement on both our parts.

Lifewriter x

[Moselle]

That is an achievement. Well done for staying calm during the triggers!

I've found that if both acknowledge that there are two sides to an argument/disagreement, it can certainly be constructive .

Eg if both say "Sorry for the role i played in the argument/disagreement" it equalises things.

It's very hard for pwBPD to acknowledge fault however. After all "There's nothing wrong with them" ☺

[Lifewriter16]

IsItHerOrIsItMe - I doubt if I ever give him an honest account of my thinking because the triggers are so prominent right now. I also need to focus upon determining what is valid and what is invalid.

However, I took a massive risk with him today in this area. My BPDbf has a history of domestic violence with his wife. He has shown no violence towards me, but I still fear that he could do. I introduced the subject and when he asked what I thought would happen, I told him 'At worst, you could kill me. But, I don't think we're in the worst case scenario which is why I want to talk to you about it.' It caused a dysregulation (which doesn't surprise me), but he's still talking to me... .this is little short of miraculous. He's making progress towards taking responsibility for his actions.

Moselle - Thanks. I think I'll raise that idea with him. That'll be another dysregulation, but my BPDbf is learning and is making changes so even the dysregulations are constructive in the end.

Lifewriter x

[flourdust]

Apologies are a big deal for my BPD wife. For most of the relationship, I'd apologize for just about anything. Even after a blowup, when I'd had time to cool down, I'd apologize to her to try to mend the fences, even if I didn't feel truly responsible (or certainly not 100% responsible).

More recently, as her behavior has grown more out of control, I went through a period of almost constant apologizing. I knew that I wasn't at fault for her behavior and feelings, and so all of the apologizing was corrosive to my self-esteem. I had to stop it, because my begging for forgiveness made her feel (temporarily) better while I felt horrible and false.

Now, I only apologize when I genuinely feel I have done something wrong, or as a normal social courtesy (of the "sorry I accidentally jostled you" variety). My wife hates this. She wants apologies. In a moment of extreme lucidity, she told me that I had taken something away from her -- that apologizing when I hadn't done anything wrong was a gift to her, and that by taking it away, I had hurt her and needed to replace that gift. That's an incredible insight into the BPD thought process, but a chilling one. I think she was saying that my taking the blame was a way for me to accept her projection of negative feelings -- she could purge herself of what was making her feel bad by pushing it on to me. And the only cost was my self-worth and happiness!

It's like the story of the scapegoat. The ancient Jews would transfer the sins of the people onto the goat, then push the goat off a cliff. The sins were purged, and the goat paid the price for the people.

More practically, I learned that even when I did choose to apologize profusely and take the blame, BPD is still a bottomless pit of need. Apologizing only made her feel better for a while before she had to up the stakes. Soon, it wasn't enough to apologize -- I had to promise not to do it again. And then I had to explain in detail my plan to ensure it would never happen again. (This became tricky, because I had to come up with plans to improve myself so that she wouldn't have negative feelings!) Eventually, even that wasn't enough, as she started to challenge me that she didn't believe my plans, and was ordered to convince her that I was telling the truth, that this time would be different, etc.

I got off the merry-go-round. She's left holding on to her negative feelings without a goat to accept them. Let's be honest -- this has made her much more hostile and our home life pretty intolerable. But I am holding on to my self-esteem now and thinking much more clearly.

[steve195915]

How do you feel about blame or saying sorry? Is this been a trigger for you or if it was and you have managed to sidestep it, how did you do that?

Oh, and if you'd like to explain how it's possible to say sorry without accepting the blame, I'd appreciate that, because I just don't get it.

Love Lifewriter

I think it's very hard to accept blame and saying sorry especially when we don't believe we did anything wrong.  When my BPDgf accuses me of something when I don't believe I did anything wrong it does get my ire up but I try to relax and think if I start defending myself or attacking her then it will cause an escalation.  I still don't want to admit I did anything wrong but what I can say is "sorry what I did made you feel that way".  Saying sorry in this way for me does not accept any guilt and it is true that I am sorry she is upset.  She may take it as I'm admitting fault but that makes no difference to me since it diffused a potential bad situation. 

[maxsterling]

A double standard exists in my relationship.  Her wanting apologies for things that I don't feel sorry about.  I will apologize that the argument happened, but not specifically for my actions that were justified (like calling police when she started becoming physically violent and threatening to kill herself).  But she rarely apologizes directly for any of her actions.  She can be mean and nasty, then later say "sorry, I feel so irritable".  It's a "sorry, BUT [excuse]". 

Not that I need the words exactly, but I would like to see her recognize the damaging effects of her behavior.

[Moselle]

In a moment of extreme lucidity, she told me that I had taken something away from her -- that apologizing when I hadn't done anything wrong was a gift to her, and that by taking it away, I had hurt her and needed to replace that gift. That's an incredible insight into the BPD thought process, but a chilling one. I think she was saying that my taking the blame was a way for me to accept her projection of negative feelings -- she could purge herself of what was making her feel bad by pushing it on to me. And the only cost was my self-worth and happiness!

It's like the story of the scapegoat. The ancient Jews would transfer the sins of the people onto the goat, then push the goat off a cliff. The sins were purged, and the goat paid the price for the people.

More practically, I learned that even when I did choose to apologize profusely and take the blame, BPD is still a bottomless pit of need. Apologizing only made her feel better for a while before she had to up the stakes. Soon, it wasn't enough to apologize -- I had to promise not to do it again. And then I had to explain in detail my plan to ensure it would never happen again. (This became tricky, because I had to come up with plans to improve myself so that she wouldn't have negative feelings!) Eventually, even that wasn't enough, as she started to challenge me that she didn't believe my plans, and was ordered to convince her that I was telling the truth, that this time would be different, etc.

This is extremely insightful. That is exactly what BPD is about. They need a willing scapegoat. When the scapegoat is no longer willing, their world caves in and the brittleness is exposed as they try to force the scapegoat to perform. It does not fit the delusion.

I have a big question to ask. How do we avoid becoming a scapegoat? In a BPD relationship and outside? Many organisations and societies have a blame culture. Management blames employees, employees blame management when something goes wrong. And everyone thinks they're right ☺

[steve195915]

A double standard exists in my relationship.  Her wanting apologies for things that I don't feel sorry about.  I will apologize that the argument happened, but not specifically for my actions that were justified (like calling police when she started becoming physically violent and threatening to kill herself).  But she rarely apologizes directly for any of her actions.  She can be mean and nasty, then later say "sorry, I feel so irritable".  It's a "sorry, BUT [excuse]". 

Not that I need the words exactly, but I would like to see her recognize the damaging effects of her behavior.

Consider yourself lucky that she even apologizes indirectly even if its rare.  My BPDgf will never admit any responsibility in her words or actions, and never recognize the damaging effects of her behavior.  Every damaging action or words from her is my fault because I got her angry. On top of that I have to say I'm sorry that what I did or say made her angry though to me that doesn't admit any guilt from me.  I just accept this as part of being in a relationship with a BPDgf.  Thank God the sex is awesome! 

[Cat Familiar]

I spent years saying "I'm sorry" as appeasement to my violent exBPD/NPDh. He'd say that my words, behavior, facial expression, whatever "made" him get out of control. So, obviously, I was to blame.

I don't recommend apologizing for anything that isn't your fault, in an attempt to keep the peace. It's not worth it in the long run.

My current husband uses "sorrys" like Kleenex. They mean nothing to me, and I doubt they mean much to him either.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

I spent years saying "I'm sorry" as appeasement to my violent exBPD/NPDh. He'd say that my words, behavior, facial expression, whatever "made" him get out of control. So, obviously, I was to blame.

Youza... .this is my wife's go-to argument... .when she can't point to anything that has been said, she'll say what is said "isn't consistent" with actions... .or if actions doesn't work then she'll say it isn't consistent with body language... .

She'll accuse me of "justifying" cheating (I don't) because she complains all the time, but doesn't recognize she justifies her constant complaining

[maxsterling]

I, too, have used "sorry" as an appeasement.  I get so frustrated and downtrodden, that I will consider anything just to bring peace and the end of an argument.  (To qualify, most of the time it's not really an argument, because I am arguing nothing, and I don't even understand what the conflict really is.)  I don't think this is a good coping mechanism, though.  

Another frustrating thing is that my wife is often furious and wanting apologies from others for things she often does herself.  So for me to listen to her complain about the behavior of another that is identical to her own behavior is extremely frustrating.  There is always a reason why her behavior is different or is excusable.  

[Moselle]

Another frustrating thing is that my wife is often furious and wanting apologies from others for things she often does herself.  So for me to listen to her complain about the behavior of another that is identical to her own behavior is extremely frustrating.

This is a tough one. I recognise the dilemma. If we point out the issues she feels betrayed.

[Grey Kitty]

This morning, I triggered my BPDbf. I stood back, stayed calm, used plenty of SET and eventually, he calmed down and I felt really pleased with myself.

Then he said, "Can I suggest that next time this happens, avoid the therapy and analysis and just say sorry?" Well, I could feel that telling me to say sorry was triggering me. I could feel the resistance and the urge to fight with him welling up inside me. When I told my BPDbf that I wasn't willing to accept the blame, he just said there is no blame here, that sorry just diffuses the situation and we're both going to make mistakes, like the tables had suddenly been turned and he was now the healthier one.

First a question: "triggered BPDbf" ... .you stayed calm, used SET ... .he calmed down.

Did he get verbally abusive when he was triggered? If he did, perhaps taking a short time out would have been a better choice than validation / SET. If he wasn't aiming crap at YOU when he was triggered, then what you did was both awesome and fully appropriate.

Second thought. In general, I don't think that apologies are something that a pwBPD really gets. For years, my wife was prone to apologizing... .not for her actions... .not for hurting me... .but for existing in the first place. For being such a bad person. etc. etc. She didn't tend to demand apologies from me that I recall... .but the main point is that understanding that you behaved in a way that you regret, and owning that, and apologizing is tough work... .and often beyond the emotional range of a pwBPD.

[RaisenCane]

I'm glad this topic was brought up but I have the opposite issue in that my uBPDw doesn't accept my apologies. I have always been quick to apologize for everything (Not just to her but in general. "Falling on the sword" is one of my favorite activities.) but now I try to only apologize when I know I am wrong. Unfortunately, she won't accept the apology and will use whatever I have said against me at a later time.

It is also very rare that she apologizes, although she feels she does it all the time. When I tell her I forgive her, she tells me she doesn't want nor need my forgiveness.  Is this her way of making me the bad guy and keeping herself as the victim? Does anyone else have this issue? If so, how do I "tacckle" it.

RaisenCane

[flourdust]

I'm glad this topic was brought up but I have the opposite issue in that my uBPDw doesn't accept my apologies. I have always been quick to apologize for everything (Not just to her but in general. "Falling on the sword" is one of my favorite activities.) but now I try to only apologize when I know I am wrong. Unfortunately, she won't accept the apology and will use whatever I have said against me at a later time.

It is also very rare that she apologizes, although she feels she does it all the time. When I tell her I forgive her, she tells me she doesn't want nor need my forgiveness.  Is this her way of making me the bad guy and keeping herself as the victim? Does anyone else have this issue? If so, how do I "tacckle" it.

My wife also doesn't apologize -- or if she does, it's an incredibly rare event. However, I've caught her saying several times that she is always apologizing. It must only be happening in her head.

Can you say a little more about how your wife won't accept apologies? What does the conversation go like? As I mentioned in my post upthread, I also used to apologize continuously. I think that the effect of that started to wear off on her and she moved the goalposts, so that I not only needed to apologize but to offer plans for how I would learn from my mistakes. And so on. Do you think something similar might be happening?

[pallavirajsinghani]

I think that saying one's sorry is semantically different than apologising.

To say, "I am sorry." is to communicate empathy when it is done with qualification.

1)   For example:  One can say,  "I can sense how hurt you are.  I am so sorry that you feel this way.  I hope that you will feel better soon.  It hurts me to see you feel like this." 

2)  Same situation one says,  "I apologise that I caused you hurt.  My actions resulting in your hurt... .I am sorry for causing you pain... ."

These are both semantically and intentionally different.  The first one is an empathy statement, the second one is accepting responsibility.

So if you have done nothing wrong, it is still ok to say that you are sorry... .and clarify what you are sorry for.  Don't turn,  "I am sorry." into an apology.

If you have really done something wrong, then perhaps the better phrase to use is,  "I apologise for forgetting your birthday etc... .".

I am trying to teach my children this difference.  When siblings fight with each other, they just blurt out a reluctant "Sorry".  To me this is insufficient and unclear.  This word only reflects remorse and sorrow... .it does not reflect acceptance of responsibility.  So I make them say,  "I apologise for breaking your pencil... .or taking your eraser... .or whatever specific transgression they committed.

Hope this helps.

[maryy16]

I would be very careful about ever saying "I'm sorry" if you truly don't feel you haven't done anything wrong for the simple reason that it could be used against you in the future. I'm afraid all he will remember of the incident is that you were the one who apologized, meaning that you were the one in the wrong ( in his mind).

I can clearly hear my H saying, "I seem to remember that you were the one that was wrong last time. Did you or did you not apologize to me? Why would you apologize for something if you didn't do, so it must have been your fault."

Selective memory.

[Moselle]

I think for a BPD to.apologise is to admit imperfection. This threatens the facade presented to the world that there is nothing wrong with them.

This might be why they cannot appologise. To do so contradicts the delusion

[Flexion]

A double standard exists in my relationship.  Her wanting apologies for things that I don't feel sorry about.  I will apologize that the argument happened, but not specifically for my actions that were justified (like calling police when she started becoming physically violent and threatening to kill herself).  But she rarely apologizes directly for any of her actions.  She can be mean and nasty, then later say "sorry, I feel so irritable".  It's a "sorry, BUT [excuse]". 

Not that I need the words exactly, but I would like to see her recognize the damaging effects of her behavior.

Yeah, pretty much my story. My uBPDw is always angry wanting some "payment" for my sins constantly. Even if I did say "I'm sorry" ( I have  more that I should have), she would then turn and beat me for hours/days. I meant anything she can think of to make a comment about that to bring me down. Therefore, I have taken the "I'm sorry you feel that way... .I ONLY have love for you!" This has (so far) proven to be the best method to deal with her. However, she also will NEVER let that injustice go. She can't remember what day it is most of the time or 'last week" to her could of been 6 months ago. So, it is inevitable that she will revisit that injustice at her convenience.

I have also gotten her to apologize and see where she was not acting mature about things. Usually , it's not long(could be a week or months) before she forgets that she apologized for doing xyz and bring the situation up again to blame me. I have called her out for this. She has NO recollection of ever admitting guilt! If it happened to be a text message, I usually have saved it and can prove to her with facts. That is IF IF IF she even let's you show her the truth.  But, the moment she realizes that she's "losing the battle," she will begin at the beginning of our relationship and create stories from bits and pieces of history. What I mean is she will take things said and done that are true and start story building. By the time she's done regurgitating her poison, it sounds like she is married to the devil! 

[RaisenCane]

Flourdust,

Here's a little background.  My wife had an affair that lasted nearly a year. I learned about 3 months into and confronted her about it. She said it was "only" emotional and told our MC and me that it was over and she had stopped talking to him. She wanted our MC to be her personal T so we switched MC's. I had confirmation she was still talking with him and she continued to lie to the new MC and me as well. In my desperation and depression, I reached out to friends and family members to help to get her to stop and she lied to them as well. I know that wasn't the right thing to do but I didn't know what else to do. I had proof the relationship had turned physical and filed for divorce. She sent me a letter apologizing for what she had down and told me filing was the only way she would have stopped. She was seemed genuinely remorseful for a few days so I put a continuance on the divorce so we could work things out. After the continuance was issued, she became very angry at me telling me I ruined her life and reputation, that I humiliated and embarrassed her, that I ruined her relationship with her sister and her friends. I accidentally left this website on my wife so now she reminds all the time that I think she is crazy. I have written her a letter telling her I understand why she is upset and that I am truly sorry for talking with other people about this. I've given her cards telling her we can work this and have given her a couple small gifts along the way. I have also told her I have forgiven her for the affair which she told me she didn't want her need my forgiveness. She is probably 10 times angrier at me than I am at her. She tells me I can't carry a conversation with her that all I do is ask 20 questions but she doesn't respond with anything other than a yes or no and glares at me with total disdain. When we do have a discussion, she tells me she is simply expressing her feelings but I make everything personal. There have been 2 times that I have totally lost my temper and called her all kinds of names which I am still apologizing for months later and she reminds me that I called her names and she would never do anything like that to me.  She can't imagine the anger and frustration I must be feeling for the affair but she is still far angrier at me than I am at her. I am willing to completely forgive her for the affair if there was any forgiveness toward me. She tells me frequently the affair what just a symptom of 13 years (out of 15) of a bad marriage the only problem is that no one other than her new we were in a bad marriage. Yes it wasn't perfect but it wasn't as remotely as bad as she is making it out to be. I am just now realizing how emotionally needy she was and I admit I did not fill that need for her.

So basically, if I behave badly during an argument, I apologize for it and like I said I have apologized numerous times for reaching out to family and friends for help, but she doesn't want to hear it. Her affair was justified, and any response I have had to the affair was not.

RaisenCane