How do I figure out what I want?

[Cloudy Days]

For so long I was codependent and I stopped focusing on myself any basically forgot about myself. It was easier to focus on my husband because he was demanding and giving him what he wanted made things better. It was an easy way to forget about myself.

I have stopped doing that and I am truly at a breaking point in my life. I still fear my husband... .yes I said fear he was very abusive, mentally, physically and emotionally for a long time. Since he has gotten treatment it is mainly just verbal. I don't stick around for it but the threats are still there and so are the memories of what was once done to me. Which will forever stay with me... .

It has occurred to me the only reason I am still with my husband is because of this fear. If I tell him I want a divorce, then all hell will break loose and I will have to deal with the heartbreak of what he has done to me, once again. I am a new person, but I still struggle figuring out what I really want. I have spent such a long time lying to myself abut what I wanted (him). I have had several dreams about wanting him out of my life when I have been fully dedicated to staying. I feel like I would be relieved if he left me, but I fear that will never happen.

He has been threatening to leave me lately and demanding I give him $10,000. To move to a new state. I don't have $10,000 but I can get it if I need to in 6 months (not a loan). I don't know if he is serious though and he gets angry at me for actually rolling over and agreeing to something so ridiculous. I've been telling him that I am no longer going to fight for someone who claims he hates me and that I just want him to find his happiness in life. In other words, I give up and if this is the price I have to pay to get my life back then I will gladly pay it. Then I feel stupid for thinking about giving him part of my retirement because he's just going to blow it and show back up at my door step.

What do I do? How do I figure out what I want. As we speak he says he's getting paperwork sent to him for divorce.

It's like I can't say it out loud or confirm with myself that this is actually what I want because I have been punished in the past for telling him I wanted to leave. So I have lied to myself saying this is what I want when all I have wanted for a long time is to be free.

[livednlearned]

Hi Cloudy Days,

Working on our codependence is one huge step, with a lot of ripple effects.    How does this look in practice for you? What were some of the behaviors you changed?

It sounds like he has also done some work, although understandably you have memories of when things were worse. What kind of treatment did he get (or is getting)?

I can see why his threats of divorce are so confusing. You have entertained the idea of divorce, and he is actively threatening divorce, and yet you fear what he'll do if he's bluffing.

Did something happen recently that might have triggered these threats? Progress in therapy? (can sometimes trigger engulfment behaviors).

LnL

[thefixermom]

I hope you resist giving him the money.  Years from now when you are strong, I am concerned you would be very disappointed that you let him take that from you. And you're right, he won't use it wisely.  It could be money well spent getting you into a better place if you should wish to do so. I get the feeling he just likes to mess with you, test you and see if he can get a reaction so he can project his illness on you.

[Grey Kitty]

Figuring out what I want is something I have trouble with too... .although I'm split with my wife, and don't want to go back now. Second guess myself a little once in a while, but I've yet to get an offer even worth considering.

Anyhow, you are talking about two different big questions here and I'd like to shine a light on the difference.

Q1: Do you want to end your marriage.

-and-

Q2: What terms do you want to end it on? (i.e. are you willing to file for divorce? Willing to give him $10k to move to another state?)

My suggestion is to think long and hard about the first question as to what you really want. And if you decide you want to be single, then and only then think about what you want to leave your marriage with, what you are willing to do to get out, etc.

If you are reacting to HIS statements about ending the marriage, demands for money, and whatever... .you are going to stay confused, 'cuz he's going to keep spinning in circles, blowing in the wind, and you will be reacting to a moving target for a long time.

[unicorn2014]

Cloudy days I am sorry you are going through that and I have heard similar things from my boyfriend about his wife, that she didn't act like he belonged to her and that's why he was able to have a relationship with me.

In the beginning of my relationship my boyfriend used to tell me things like he needed things to be intense in order to feel them or if we got in a fight then he knew I loved him. He equated conflict with love. Do you think its possible your husband might have that same problem? I apologize if I am wrong, I don't know your story very well.

[thefixermom]

I like Grey Kitty's questions for you to consider.  As I read them it occurred to me that if you take steps, difficult as they seem, to create life the way you want it, vs. have your destiny be subjected to your husband's whim, then perhaps you will gain in your sense of self and more doors will open for you. It takes courage and faith, though, and lack of those things is what has kept me stuck in the past.

[Cloudy Days]

I think I have wanted to end my marriage but I want to end it on good terms and I don't think that is possible. And really I think that is what is holding me back. He is not happy being with me, and he wants to move for good reasons. He can't see my reasons for wanting to stay because he is blinded by what he wants. He got a large amount of money for Disability back pay last year and he was threatening to leave then too. Saying he was going to take his money and move. We spent it on a down payment for a house and fixing our car. Also the money would not be wiping me out if I gave it to him. But I would still want it to be worth it.

He is in DBT therapy and has been for several years, he is taking medication and I have stopped doing everything for him. I used to worry constantly about what mood he was in, I would bring him alcohol so he would not be in a bad mood. I would basically try to manipulate his mood by doing things for him. Once I learned what codependency was I stopped caring what his mood was. Stopped trying to manipulate him. I would spend hours massaging his back to keep him calm. We lived in a crowded neighborhood and he hates people so he would get triggered easily. I would try to keep him from blowing up. Now I just get out of the way and let him be.

There was even a time he was manic having a bipolar episode and I would fear going home. I think you can only imagine how insane he was, how suspicious of everything he was. He was hallucinating and only sleeping 1-2 hours a night if that. He got to the point he was psychotic and was eventually hospitalized. You would think that would  have been the worst of it but it's not even close. I just don't know if I can see past all of it anymore. I mean he has gotten better, but it's not 100% better and I don't think he will ever be 100%. I have so many emotional scars from being with him. PTSD from the worst moments and he conveniently doesn't remember most of it. I don't know if that is his way to not take responsibility for things. I just know I remember them. Which means I don't trust him, which is the #1 reason I will never move to another state with him. I've told him this, he doesn't remember the things I do so he doesn't understand completely. That's why I feel like maybe it's over. If I can't trust him what is there to save? I love him with all of my heart... .I think that since I have started to focus on me and what I want, and how to find my own happiness I have noticed these feelings more. I spent so much time trying to forget about myself and just focusing solely on him and how to make him happy.

I think maybe I just have some kind of hope that if I give him the $10,000 he will leave without a fight and maybe be happy about it. And when I think about him I won't hate him because of how it ended. Because I always imagine it ending in some way terrible and I don't think I can handle that. I don't know if he wants to leave or not, I think he does in some moments and other moments he doesn't.

[thefixermom]

I don't get the impression you two will split any time soon.  Just a sense and I could be wrong.  But what the sense does for me is it makes me want to tell you that if you decide to give him your money then I suggest you do it in a way that ensures it is spent on his new life away from you. In other words, don't just give it to him and tell him to use it to leave because he might just go buy a new car or blow it some other way and still  not leave and then that option is out the window.  Tell him that if he leaves you will wire the money to his new landlord and other expenses.  It's akin to when we give money to a hungry homeless person. It's better to buy them a meal than to give them the money and have them blow it on alcohol.

[Cloudy Days]

I don't get the impression you two will split any time soon.  Just a sense and I could be wrong.  But what the sense does for me is it makes me want to tell you that if you decide to give him your money then I suggest you do it in a way that ensures it is spent on his new life away from you. In other words, don't just give it to him and tell him to use it to leave because he might just go buy a new car or blow it some other way and still  not leave and then that option is out the window.  Tell him that if he leaves you will wire the money to his new landlord and other expenses.  It's akin to when we give money to a hungry homeless person. It's better to buy them a meal than to give them the money and have them blow it on alcohol.

Yes, this is what I feel would happen. Honestly we were talking about taking the money out anyways to make improvements to our home. I worry about the home a lot because since we have moved there he has become a depressed slug. He does nothing and this place requires some upkeep. He literally did the bare minimum last year, before we moved he always told me he hated where we lived because he couldn't go outside when it was nice because there were too many people around. Well now there is no one around and he didn't do anything outside without it being a big deal. I don't see us separating either any time soon. I think one of my biggest fears is that 10 more years pass and I am just as unhappy then as I am now only 10 years older. I am a self sufficient person, I grew up with alcoholic parents and became the ultimate self soother, I know I would be ok without him. Seems like we both fear something and won't take the leap to find what we both really want because it's easier to stay together.

[Grey Kitty]

I think maybe I just have some kind of hope that if I give him the $10,000 he will leave without a fight and maybe be happy about it.

I'd hope he will leave without a fight or drama and in a happy way as well.

His pattern isn't to be happy, and is to blame you for things and lash out at you for things. I don't expect that to change much.

Giving him money in hopes that he will leave more gently and easily echoes back to your old thoughts that you could control his mood.

[Cloudy Days]

I get that, but the fact that all of this is his idea, him moving, him asking for the money. He has gotten with a government lady and asked what kind of benefits he could get if he were to move and divorce me (this is why I think he could be serious about it). He has family in California so that would be where he wants to go however they have like a 2-10 year waiting list for section 8 where his brother lives. However he would make double his money and could afford to rent, and he would have food stamps too so he wouldn't have to worry about eating. He's talked all of this over with me in a calm manner giving me this information, as if this is what he wants. That's why it is so confusing and why I think maybe he would take the money and go. He's also said that he knows I am not happy and he would leave just so I could be happy. It's all very confusing because he never has the same mindset. He also talks about improvements he wants to make to our home, which is not staying with the leaving theme because I wouldn't want to spend a dime on the place if we planned to sell it. I can't afford to live there on my own income.

[Justacowgirl]

Which means I don't trust him, which is the #1 reason I will never move to another state with him. I've told him this, he doesn't remember the things I do so he doesn't understand completely. That's why I feel like maybe it's over. If I can't trust him what is there to save? I love him with all of my heart... .I think that since I have started to focus on me and what I want, and how to find my own happiness I have noticed these feelings more. I spent so much time trying to forget about myself and just focusing solely on him and how to make him happy.

This was me 3 weeks ago.  I knew I didn't trust him because of the emotional and physical turmoil he had been putting me through.  He always had a different story or slant on things which only served to create even more chaos in my mind. I didn't know who I was anymore either yet I was still drawn to him and torn.  I would lay in bed at night with my heart pounding, knowing that leaving was the only way out, yet terrified to do it. I finally left and have basically been hiding from him three states away ever since.  He's tracked me down a few times but is keeping his physical distance so far.  I'm already happier than I've been in the past few years and am beginning to feel empowered by my decision.  I too am trying to keep things pleasant though, because there is still some unfinished business, but believe me, I feel much more emotionally stable.  We only talk via email and my responses are not personal at all. 

I hope you find the strength to do what's right for you. No one deserves to feel the way BPDs make us feel about ourselves.

[Grey Kitty]

You speak pretty clearly about how your H is going in various contradictory directions, or talking about them.

What is his larger pattern when he starts talking about things (like moving out of state)? Does he stick to it and have enough commitment to finish something like that on his own?

[Cloudy Days]

You speak pretty clearly about how your H is going in various contradictory directions, or talking about them.

What is his larger pattern when he starts talking about things (like moving out of state)? Does he stick to it and have enough commitment to finish something like that on his own?

He doesn't do anything on his own. I think that is really what is holding him back is that he needs someone's help. So if he wants to do something like that he would need the help of someone. He doesn't really commit to anything without guidance. But he doesn't stop thinking about something. He looked for a house to buy for 3 years, we had just filed for bankruptcy no one was going to give us a loan but it didn't stop him from looking at house after house after house. We would have arguments because he would be angry that I didn't look up houses with him. I would tell him we can't buy a house right now so why would I want to waste my time looking at them. Now that he has one he doesn't even want it.

He was speaking a different tune yesterday, talked about how he was going to fix things up. It worries me because he is not big on getting anything done quickly. It took him 2 weeks to build a 30 minute closet for me.

[livednlearned]

It's all very confusing because he never has the same mindset.

This is the crux of any decision when it comes to BPD. One day, it's this. Another day it's that. Your decision has to be about you, and what you want. And what you feel you have the strength to do, your values, your boundaries, your plan.

My main board when I arrived here was the Family Law board. One of the things that helped me understand different member situations is something Bill Eddy said (who wrote Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse). Eddy writes about high-conflict personalities (HCPs), who are persuasive blamers, recruit negative advocates and have a target of blame (you). All HCPs have BPD. However, not all people with BPD are HCP. People who are HCP are not just difficult, they are the most difficult. You can give them everything they want, meet their every demand, give them even more than they ask for, and it will be conflict every step of the way. Someone who is BPD but not HCP will not be as high conflict, and probably won't activate the legal system in the same way. Your husband might be like that, it's something you have to sort through so you can understand the level of difficulty.

Another distinction that Eddy makes about people with PDs is whether they are:

generally cooperative, not dangerous

not cooperative, not dangerous

not cooperative, dangerous.

Knowing what your H is like would help inform your exit strategy.

There are people with BPD who stay negatively engaged (and who are not HCP) even if they wanted the relationship to end. They may create conflict by stonewalling, not following through, not responding -- some of this behavior can be driven by depression or impulsivity. Either way, it makes officially and legally ending the relationship trickier. Typically, whatever your partner was like in the relationship, he or she is like that in the divorce. It doesn't mean you can't disentangle, it just means do some thoughtful planning so you can minimize the conflict.

People with BPD don't tend to be motivated by rewards. If you do decide to give him the $10K, be sure to talk to a lawyer and if you are inclined, get advice from people on the Family Law board -- it's important to think 10 steps ahead and be very strategic in your thinking so that you have leverage every step of the way. You may want there to be conditions and consequences for taking the money, and if your H is dangerous, have a couple of safety plans in place knowing that he may not respond well to your offer.

Otherwise, if you offer him the $10K, it could poke the bear and make things worse without any guarantee that he'll actually leave. He will have proof that you don't want him, and will likely throw things back in your face even though he asked you to meet the very terms that he now feels offended by.

Ending a marriage is a bit messier than ending a relationship because you have this other entity to deal with (the law), and that has to be factored into your choices. The more I understood how things worked, the better I was able to minimize the conflict for both of us and give my ex fewer opportunities to harm himself.

My sense is that when your ex talks about leaving, he is looking for validation that he feels bad in the relationship, and does not necessarily want you to agree he should go. My ex talked about divorce for years and when I finally made the first move, it was a storm of angst and loss and betrayal as though he had never uttered the word divorce once in our marriage.

Whatever you choose, whether you want to explore all options, we're here to support you. 

[Cloudy Days]

He had divorce papers delivered yesterday, actually papers for his social security to be filed like he was getting a divorce. When I got pissed off at him for it he basically begged me to forgive him. He fessed up that he knows he treats me like crap. Just makes me even more angry, he knows that he's doing it he just doesn't care.

My husband is a HCP, he makes everything difficult just to be difficult. If you give him what he wants he wants more. His father was the same way. His mother cheated on him because he treated her like garbage and it was said that their divorce was one of the worst divorces in the county. Of course he had money so that made things more complicated. As we were arguing about the paperwork yesterday he said if we get divorced you won't have a car. Because his mom paid for the car, he will try to take everything he can from me even though I supported him for so many years when he wasn't working and fighting for disability. He also claims that everything in the home is his even though I have bought it all except for what he brought with him when we met. My husband would be the not cooperative, dangerous type. And that is really what is holding me back. He can say he wants a divorced every day of his life and rub it in my face that he often hates me. But the moment I agree to it. I have ripped his heart out. He's told me many times that he would make me wish I had never met him. I already wish that. I love him, there are good times, we can joke, and have fun, there are good things. But the bad things aren't worth the good. What's sad is that things would probably be different if he could smoke pot. The couple years that he did do it, we didn't have hardly any problems. It's the times that he drank, like now that we had the most problems and it's those same times that have given me my emotional scars.

[Grey Kitty]

It sounds like any actual efforts on your part to start a divorce will be scary and difficult.

I STRONGLY recommend you consult a lawyer, preferably one who is familiar with high conflcit divorces, and especially that you post and work out detailed plans on this legal board.

Whatever you decide to do, you need to have a strategy in place long before you breathe a word to your husband. And as you work out the strategy, you have time to figure out your own mind and decide if it is really what you want or not.

[livednlearned]

I agree with GK.

My ex was the same -- not cooperative, and dangerous. Also abused alcohol (and bipolar). And a former trial attorney.

Not having kids will make things much easier (though not easy). The key thing is to have a plan in place, plus contingencies.

And most importantly, have emotional support. A good therapist is practically essential so that you aren't recapitulating the earlier trauma over and over.