Vacation w/BPDbf - need advice

[Jessica84]

Hi, it's been awhile since I posted... . 

I decided to take a break from the boards and just be me again. He could take me as I am, or leave. I was at that point. So far, things have been really great. I mean like miraculous great, as in him minus the BPD! (or at least minimized)

Now all of the sudden (last week or so) things are starting to go south again. He's back to accusations, blaming/projecting, distorting facts/lies, and I'm back to walking on eggshells. When I could be myself naturally, even if he got upset, his dysregulations didn't last. Now, every time we talk there's so much tension I can't help but be more cautious and reserved. He's critical, accusatory and keeps twisting my words.

We're supposed to take a trip at the end of the year. We just booked it last week. Since a few days before then, his old behaviors are returning at lightning speed.

He called to tell me today he's concerned about me "ruining" the trip... .pretty unfair question, right? When I ask him what he thinks we should do, he says he's "just expressing his feelings". Ok, that's good I guess. He's trying. But how do I validate his feelings that I'm some kind of troublemaker with a plot to ruin the vacation? No clue. So I say nothing. He then tells me I need to "look inside" and figure out where my hostility toward him is coming from... .huh? I was careful to say very little - less likely to say something wrong. But to be honest, this is insulting... .and... .infuriating.

What am I missing? How do I validate his feelings? What ARE his feelings? He's worried about us getting in an argument on the trip. Ok. Is there a feeling there? Is it fear? How can I ease his fear that the trip is going to be a disaster, when even I'm not so sure now?

Thanks for any advice!

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[Jessica84]

I am inclined to back out of this trip. He could take it as abandonment or the end of our r/s, but I can't worry about that. I refuse to crunch on these eggshells. What's the point of a trip where the premise begins with "How is Jessica going to f-it up?"  I have a bad feeling it will end with me cabbing it to the nearest airport trying to get an early flight home. I need to figure out a way to word it to keep him calm, while keeping my own sanity!

[Cat Familiar]

I am really sorry, Jessica. I get accused of being angry at my husband frequently, usually when I'm not harboring an iota of anger. Maybe it's a lawyer thing.  But when he starts down that path, then I truly do get irritated because he's absolutely sure that he's right and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. 

Sometimes I think they're better mindreaders than we give them credit. Because I do try so hard to be easygoing and helpful and tolerant, he notices that I'm kinda bending over backwards to accommodate his "emotional issues" and therefore he feels a sense of embarrassment. Sometimes this manifests in shame and recently he apologized for "not being as good to you as I should." Other times it seems to make him project his discomfort at me and thereby accuse me of being angry.   

Doesn't sound like a relaxing vacation if at this point you're thinking of an exit strategy.   

[Jessica84]

Thanks Kat 

Sad turn of events. I was looking forward to this trip, even bought new clothes this morning.

Then tonight happened. Wish I could stop replaying it in my head, but... .as he's bombarding ME with criticism, he says he feels like HE's on trial. How ironic. Oh well. No sense arguing with twisted thinking. I think the best approach is to tell him nicely I'm not comfortable going now and leave it at that. He can take it however he wants.

[Cat Familiar]

That's too bad.    Isn't it strange to be caught in the projection cycle? Is there anything he's currently stressed out about (other than the usual ambient stressors)? Holidays seem to affect lots of people in a very negative way. Do you think his attitude might change, given time or were you planning on leaving soon?

Bummer... .

[maxsterling]

Every single trip I have taken with my wife has been stressful for me at some point.   Dealing with dysregulation at home is one thing; in another city or in the car is something entirely worse.  I've come to expect this is the way vacations will be, and take that into account before deciding to go.  Part of that decision is doing a little forethought as to what my "safety plan" is should she dyregulate.  Do I have the means to get home on my own if I need to?  What are my resources at my destination?  Do friends and family know where I am going, and do I have the means of staying in touch with them while on the road?

Right now I am reluctant to go anywhere long-term with my wife.  She dreams of traveling internationally with me some day.  Yikes.  I can only imagine the stress if we are in a foreign country, she becomes suicidal or violent, and neither of us speak the native language. 

It sounds so me that you pretty much have your mind made up that you don't want to deal with his stress.  You already know it will happen, and you know that this trip will leave you more exhausted when you left.    Knowing that, is it still worth perusing?  It sounds like he is going to be in a bad mood no matter what you do, how you act, or what you say.  No amount of using the communication "tools" will solve his bad mood, because it likely has absolutely nothing to do with you.  Is it possible to still take the trip with him, but have some space apart so you can enjoy yourself at least some of the time? 

I've come to the conclusion in my marriage that if I want to have relaxing vacations in the future, I am going to either need to go by myself or with another companion. Vacations with my wife may or may not be fun, but I know that my anxiety over her moods will prevent me from truly enjoying it.  My dad was the same way with my mom when I was growing up.  My dad dreaded vacations or weekend getaways because he knew at some point within the first day or two of the trip, my mom would be in a bad mood and take it out on him.  I think at times he would grin and bear it knowing the trips were good for us kids, and live in his own world a bit and focus on having a good time with his children. 

[Cat Familiar]

I have a hard time leaving home because I have horses, goats, sheep and cats. My husband gets exasperated because he would like to travel more. Also in the summer it's fire season and in the winter, the pipes can freeze, even though I insulate them as much as possible. So there's few months in the year that I'm willing to leave home.

Also, my husband snores, like a freight train when he's had a lot to drink--which always seems to happen on vacation. I get a great night's sleep at home and have different places to sleep without the soundtrack, but I'm trapped in a hotel room.

Typically he will get sick or an ear infection or something when we're out of town. Last time in Hawaii, we spent hours in the ER for a minor ear infection.

Usually, after the stress of preparing to leave, the stress of flying somewhere, the lack of sleep, etc., I will come down with a cold that lasts longer than our "vacation", so it's no wonder I don't feel favorably about going anywhere with him.

[formflier]

  Hey.  I think you found your answer in your first post.  "Just be yourself"  Let him do what he needs/wants.   You live your life.  As to the question of how to validate your "malevolent" intent, you don't.  My take is that would be validating the invalid.  In situations such as that I state "If you would like to know how I feel about xyz, please ask.  I have time to discuss."  Then I hush.  If she asks we continue, if she continues mind reading I walk away.  The trip:  Please go!      Look back at your post.  Live your life.  You planned the trip.  Keep control of it and enjoy it.  If he backs out, you still go.    Don't hand a disordered person the power.  There are practicalities here.  This will take some pre-planning.    1.  If he rages in the car I will 2.  If he rages in the hotel room I will  Things like that.  I would encourage you to not go home early.  Get different hotel, get another rental car or different cab, but continue on with your trip and your plan.  If he wants to get into deep negative discussions while on the trip, set a limit and then assure him you will pick this issue up after the trip.  Jessica, If I remember your story, you are generally pretty comfortable listening to a lot of his "stuff" and really haven't put a limit on it.  Am I correct or have I confused you?  My remembrance is you have done well and letting what he says roll of you and not "stick".  I've got more thoughts on this but wanted to make sure that I had the story straight.      

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Jessica, I like FF's advice. Good strategies to take care of yourself no matter how he acts! Yes, I think you should go!

[JaneStorm]

The worst thing I did was follow through in going to Hawaii last year with mine. Although it had been planned for over 6 months, the money paid, everyone happy for us... .He tried to sabotage it up to a week before, and I pushed through.    He did not want to go at the 11th hour; I should have been strong enough to have gone alone. It was the worst thing that ever happened in our r/s.

[formflier]

  Jessica, Have you been on trips before?  Is there other history here that we should know about?  For instance.  My wife likes to make changes.  In some instances it can "feel" like sabotage, but I don't think that is her intent.  I'm a planner, I like to keep things on schedule.  Her, not so much.  I'm very lucky that she really enjoys travelling (I do too) so there hasn't been much bad stuff there.  Inappropriate discussions/attacks in the car is about the worst of it for me.  Anyway, given our history I "plan for flexibility".  I try to minimize the "have tos" so that she can so some of it her way.      

FF

[maxsterling]

FF - I like your advice.  Don't let a pwBPD stop you from enjoying yourself and having fun.  Plan for certain scenarios ahead of time.  Before a trip I ask myself if I feel I am capable of handling the inevitable dysregulation.  I've dealt with vacation dysregulations that were life-threatening.  Each case was her dysregulating in the car and either attempting to jump out of the moving car or dysregulating while she was driving (luckily she was in control enough to recognize the hazard and pull over).  There is a difference between just dealing with an upset person, and dealing with a dangerous person.  If I know W is really in the dumps about something, I certainly wouldn't take her far from home, especially to a place where she could act on impulse (such as the Grand Canyon).  At that point, it is a safety issue.  That's why I would be hesitant to take my wife on an international trip (although she has traveled abroad many times on her own).  A moderate-grade dysregulation could become a serious or dangerous dysregulation in a place where the laws are different or where help is harder to get. 

[formflier]

  Hotel and car are the big ones to think through.  Hopefully the hotel has more rooms and you can just go to another room and sleep if your pwBPD wigs out.  Best idea is to go for 10-15 minute walk.  Maybe grab something from vending machine and then go back to room and check the "temperature"      

FF

[Jessica84]

Thank you all for the responses! I talked to my mother about it some too - she generally has good advice and somehow seems to understand him. Her advice was along the same lines as here - to go but have a "back out" plan, including getting another room. I just keep thinking... .what is the point of going if you have to have a contingency plan?

The weirdest part of this is him thinking I'm the problem. I feel like he will be looking for me to cause an upset. God forbid my burger isn't cooked right, or I stub my toe, or anything! He will no doubt find something I say or do and grab hold of it, no matter how small, then complain I'm criticizing him. One wrong word will equal a whole day of punishment (silent treatment, raging, blaming, name-calling)... .I don't want this trip to be one of those negative experiences he throws in my face for years either. If I get upset at any point, it will be used against me forever... ."Remember 2015... ."

Generally, we've done ok with trips (only minor blowouts or none at all), but 50% of the time major. Worried going into this one it could be major. He's acting weird again - happens every December. Found out he also told someone at his office he wishes he could go alone - but if I tell him I don't want to go, I'll get the backlash for granting that wish! ((sigh))

FF - yes, you remember correctly. I listen to all his problems and let them roll. Doesn't bother me. I've done much better not taking him personal, but how is this not personal? He's worried I'm going to mess up the trip?

Max - I don't have BPD, but I too have wanted to throw myself from a moving car before! Lol Stuck in a car with someone hellbent on arguing... .and claiming it is your fault... you start to feel like a hostage needing to escape!

[formflier]

     

FF - yes, you remember correctly. I listen to all his problems and let them roll. Doesn't bother me. I've done much better not taking him personal, but how is this not personal? He's worried I'm going to mess up the trip?    

     Few thoughts.  Even though it doesn't bother you.  I recommend setting a limit.  Listen for a couple minutes, pivot to asking him about solutions (do not provide any yourself) and then excuse yourself.  You are a r/s partner, not a T, not a dumping ground for negativity.  Good on your for not taking it personally.  OK, let him think you are the problem all he wants.  Remember, don't "buy" their reality (I think you put this in your shopping cart, )  and don't "sell" them on your reality.  The point of going is that you may be able to have a great time and build good memories.  You may enjoy it.  Don't let BPD define your life.  Yes you need to be aware, make reasonable plans and all that.      

FF

[Jessica84]

FF - I think you're right. I've bought his "reality". He has been living in mine (the real world) for several months now so I forgot what this was like. Having a hard time remembering now how I got off this path before.

As for the other, I haven't had to play therapist in awhile. His meds are controlling the depression and somewhat the mood swings. He's solving his own problems. He's even trying not to let things get to him - a huge improvement! He'll call and vent about his day a little, but they're usually short calls to fill the drive time to/from work.

[Jessica84]

One other thing... .I'm not totally innocent. I have engaged in conversations with topics HE brought up that I should've known were triggers for both of us. But what can I say... .I got relaxed and spoke freely.   So there's just enough truth to what he's saying that's caused me to second-guess myself. I don't trust myself not to say and do something wrong! That may sound silly, but it's true.

[Cat Familiar]

One other thing... .I'm not totally innocent. I have engaged in conversations with topics HE brought up that I should've known were triggers for both of us. But what can I say... .I got relaxed and spoke freely.   So there's just enough truth to what he's saying that's caused me to second-guess myself. I don't trust myself not to say and do something wrong! That may sound silly, but it's true.

I know the feeling of relaxing and wanting to forget that you're dealing with a pwBPD. Sometimes you can get away with speaking freely and sometimes it bites you in the butt.

[Hope26]

Jessica, I can so empathize with your situation.  My experience with uBPDh is similar about 50% of the time.  He starts getting worked up at least a week before the trip, acting beastly even the night before on the last occasion.  Then he had a couple of major outbursts during the trip itself.  However, I've noticed a big difference between the types of vacations that trigger him and the types that don't.  If we are traveling in our motorhome, which requires more advance planning, effort, and possible anticipated problems, that is when the bad behavior is inevitable.  If we are going somewhere where we can mostly stay in one place and relax, it doesn't trigger him at all.  So it's all about the perceived level of stress; and it seems BPD's have a much lower tolerance for stress than the rest of us.  I don't know if this is the case for you or anyone else on the board, but that's the pattern I've observed.  Also, it has to do with the amount of interaction with other people required by the trip.  That seems to be a huge trigger for H; he'd like it to be as little as possible.

[Jessica84]

Thanks Hope and CatF! What might be triggering him (I find out later) is a horrible experience he had in the same town with his ex-wife many years ago. Hopefully we can go and replace his bad memories with good ones. Totally baffled that he chose this location, of all the places we could have gone.

Oh well. Everything seems to have settled back to normal now. I'm still a little uneasy about a weeklong trip, but I think it would serve me better to unhear/forget/erase all his words from the other night... .since he's forgotten all about it! Must be nice to rewrite history and facts to suit your moods - and expect everyone around you to remember your version. My mind doesn't work that way, but I'm gonna try to let it go so I don't feel resentful toward him or walk on eggshells. Vacation is not the time to be on "your best behavior" - it's a time to RELAX and just "be"! That said, I have a contingency plan in place... just in case I "ruin" anything being myself! 

[Cat Familiar]

Must be nice to rewrite history and facts to suit your moods - and expect everyone around you to remember your version. My mind doesn't work that way, but I'm gonna try to let it go so I don't feel resentful toward him or walk on eggshells. Vacation is not the time to be on "your best behavior" - it's a time to RELAX and just "be"! That said, I have a contingency plan in place... just in case I "ruin" anything being myself! 

Isn't it interesting how their memory works? My H hates green beans because during a summer break from college, he lived on a commune and one day everyone left for town except him and the only thing he had to eat was some stringy green beans that they had grown. Now he hates, hates, hates green beans.

But he can be a total asshat to me in the evening and by the next morning expect all to be forgotten.

Have a great time on your vacation and drink a Cosmo or Margarita and think: "I'm totally prepared to have fun no matter what his mood is."   

[JaneStorm]

Yeah; their time/space continuum is not normal. Case in point: He would not 'allow' a holiday this year to be celebrated. He acted like it was a done deal up until the day before, then he snapped. WHY? Because of something that happened 32 years ago to him (actually he had consequences of what he did to someone else... .) But I could not hold him accountable to something 3 weeks prior because "that was a long time ago... ."

[flourdust]

Yeah; their time/space continuum is not normal. Case in point: He would not 'allow' a holiday this year to be celebrated. He acted like it was a done deal up until the day before, then he snapped. WHY? Because of something that happened 32 years ago to him (actually he had consequences of what he did to someone else... .) But I could not hold him accountable to something 3 weeks prior because "that was a long time ago... ."

My wife was apparently scared by Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory when she was little. She can't see the movie to this day and will bite your head off if you so much as hum a few bars from one of the songs. Childhood fear, adult body.

[JaneStorm]

Yeah; their time/space continuum is not normal. Case in point: He would not 'allow' a holiday this year to be celebrated. He acted like it was a done deal up until the day before, then he snapped. WHY? Because of something that happened 32 years ago to him (actually he had consequences of what he did to someone else... .) But I could not hold him accountable to something 3 weeks prior because "that was a long time ago... ."

My wife was apparently scared by Willie Wonka and the Chocolate Factory when she was little. She can't see the movie to this day and will bite your head off if you so much as hum a few bars from one of the songs. Childhood fear, adult body.

Don't get me wrong; I have PTSD from terrible trauma in and after childhood, but it seems this type holds on to obscure things and magnifies them. Not willing to work towards being free of them.

[Cat Familiar]

My husband picks off cucumbers from his salads in restaurants and puts them on my plate. Reason: when he was a child growing up in England, his school went on a canoe trip one day and he was given a whole cucumber to eat for lunch--and that was the entirety of his lunch.