BPD, NPD, and alcoholism in FOO

[GreenEyedMonster]

As I sit here and wait for the other shoe to drop with my ex, I ended up reading the autobiography of a woman whose life was eerily similar to that of my ex.  She grew up in the same town as he did, with an alcoholic dad who reminds me, in her descriptions, almost exactly of my ex's dad.  I was reminded of how much children of alcoholics experience two things:  the pressure to hold their families together, and the pressure to keep secrets and not talk about unpleasant aspects of family life.

My ex didn't say much about being forced to keep secrets, and after years of therapy was pretty open about what his dad was like.  But his dad was a well-to-do employee of a large national corporation.  He said his family was very focused on material wealth, and when he was in high school, built a new house in a subdivision in a growing area of the country.  I am sure that there was a lot of pressure on him to act like life was perfect and orderly when it was anything but.  He said his dad often spent evenings passed out on the couch after drinking several cans of beer, and was relatively uninterested in his kids.  His parents each had their own bedroom, though they remained married (and miserable).

"I don't like people to know my vulnerabilities," he once said to me.  Things like being in therapy for his anxiety were subjects of shame to him, even though other friends of ours had been through similar experiences and were very open about it.  He would be very vague about his relationship with his therapist, and when I asked what he had anxiety about, he got really agitated, said he didn't like deep questions, and changed the subject.

Which brings me back to the PPO threat.  I think my ex has been under the impression that his case against me is so airtight that he will get a PPO ex parte (without me present).  It has been four days since he allegedly filed and I have heard nothing from him or the court.  The county website says that requests are usually processed and returned within 24 - 48 hours.  It could still happen, of course, but I wonder if the idea that I can make him come to court and I can tell my side of the story is a deterrent for him.  If he fears narcissistic injury and situations beyond his control, I would think a court hearing would be his worst nightmare come to pass.

All of this got me to thinking, though -- is narcissism a product of a person with BPD traits growing up in a family with a disease like alcoholism, where the family itself maintains and protects a false image?  Alcoholics are notorious for blaming their problems and reactions on others, and it has even been said that people with addictions become temporarily narcissistic.  I wonder if my ex learned his defensive attitude from his mother's excuses and secrets growing up, and refuses to air his own "dirty laundry" with anyone, just like he was taught to do with his family.

Has anyone else had an experience with someone with strong NPD traits and an alcoholism issue in the FOO?  I'm curious if I'm the only one.

[thisworld]

GEM hi,

My ex is the adult child of an alcoholic. I think his father may have a personality disorder, too. He was a volatile Casanova with no consideration for my ex's mother.

I have recently read that people with BPD score somewhere in the middle in NPD traits anyway and maybe this is more visible in males due to gender roles as well. Have you seen MapleBob's recent post about adult children of alcoholics?

[GreenEyedMonster]

Interesting that this topic came up twice now.

My ex's father died between our first and second dates.  His reaction to his father's death was interesting.  Publicly and on Facebook, he wrote eulogies punctuated by smiley faces, shared memories, and seemed very fond of his dad.  Privately, he had nothing good to say about the man and never shed a tear.  He seemed absolutely emotionless toward him.  But again, there's the mask of perfection and the reality behind it.

It seems as if my ex viewed being a "good person" as checking some boxes.  Don't break the law, don't speak ill of your family, say the "right" things to your girlfriend.  Often, though, there was a lack of feeling behind his gestures that made me wonder if they were hollow.  For example, he would tell me that he wished he could be with me when he had chosen to be somewhere else.  He would tell me that he missed me when he had chosen not to take me along.  He would tell me that he didn't have time to talk, when he had plenty of time to talk to other friends that day.  He was great at creating an appearance, but the reality beneath it often didn't match.  He was a master of words and could always say the right thing in a persuasive way that made you buy in, or wonder if you were crazy for not believing him.

That's why I wonder if an impending defeat in court will cause him to implode.  There is no right thing to say after accusing someone of something terrible -- like stalking -- and being proved wrong in court.  He will either have to smear the judge or cover up the fact that he ever made a request.  He may avoid requesting a PPO altogether and just act like he decided to be a "nice person" because that is the best way to save face in this situation.

[MapleBob]

I've been thinking A LOT about this myself. We were discussing it recently over here:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=290458.0

... .but I'll reply further in the morning. Zzzzzzz. 

[Visitor]

All of this got me to thinking, though -- is narcissism a product of a person with BPD traits growing up in a family with a disease like alcoholism, where the family itself maintains and protects a false image?

Really good post GEM. I think these questions raise a lot more questions for me and I can align myself with the person you describe as your ex. First of all “alcoholism” can mean many different things to many different people. My father was not the definition of an alcoholic but I would say he was a very heavy drinker. Whiskey was his POISON. Secondly I would not call an addiction to alcohol a disease but bye-de-bye that is not important.

I feel personally that disorders develop more in sensitive people who suffer a turbulent or neglectful upbringing. It’s a mixture of nature and nurture for me. My father’s alcoholism was a symptom of his own mental anguish and although I am angry at him I can find sympathy and forgiveness in that respect. He had a very hard upbringing himself and didn’t have the sanctuary of the internet to help him through his adult years.

When it comes to external perceptions my father was the quintessential narcissist. The false self he projected would have people on the outside saying what a good father he was but of course the children know differently. He was a weak man who ruled his children and pets with fear and physical violence born from anger. Of course this is always withheld when the outside world were watching.

Alcoholics are notorious for blaming their problems and reactions on others, and it has even been said that people with addictions become temporarily narcissistic. I wonder if my ex learned his defensive attitude from his mother's excuses and secrets growing up, and refuses to air his own "dirty laundry" with anyone, just like he was taught to do with his family.

Well let’s not take the human aspect out of all of this. I think for a lot of people it’s hard to express vulnerability. Especially when you come from a home where feelings were squashed and sometimes met with violence. This causes us to repress our feelings in later life and we struggle to express them in a healthy manner.

[MapleBob]

Okay, so, my thoughts in the moment about cluster-B and alcoholism in FOO:

I think that it boils down to a lack of trust. pwBPD/NPD/ACoA's grew up with the reinforced belief that people who love you aren't entirely telling the truth. It seems to be a common thread in these stories that alcoholic parents will say that they love you and then act like they don't, or at the very least send mixed messages. So a child in that kind of environment learns to have walls up against (and keep secrets, even from themselves, about) the non-loving behaviors in their FOO. They also learn how to manipulate and caretake the people in their lives in order to remain "safe".

If you grow up with the belief that unconditional love is a virtual impossibility - and it's the one thing that you most crave - you wind up pretty disordered. It must be a terrible downward spiral of "they love me/they love me not" where it is just as triggering to be loved (because love is fake, after all) as it is to be abused (at least that feels real, and verifiable). So simple relationship "mistakes" on the part of their partner triggers a whole episode. And then later they calm down and feel foolish and start manipulating for love again. And it's not even really their fault! It's an internalized, trained, nurtured process - and for some there are other issues compounding that fact (sensitive temperament, cluster-B genetics, generational depression, etc.)

[thisworld]

If you grow up with the belief that unconditional love is a virtual impossibility - and it's the one thing that you most crave - you wind up pretty disordered.

I personally would say more or less codependent, rather than disordered. There are many people who were brought up in very abusive circumstances who didn't end up disordered, so to me there is a combination of different factors.

This is what I have in my mind nowadays (not in relation to myself, my FOO issues are obvious:)) What is it with some people brought up in non-problematic homes (on the surface perhaps) that makes them prone to going through the kind of negative experiences we read here? Why don't people get out earlier? Maybe they don't believe that a better love is possible for them, either. Nowadays, I'm thinking that a family does not have to be highly problematic to condition a child this way. Maybe many parents without clinical or even sub-clinical issues can raise codependent children, too.

What do you think about this? I'm really curious about this aspect of child raising.

Best,

TW   

[GreenEyedMonster]

I think that it boils down to a lack of trust. pwBPD/NPD/ACoA's grew up with the reinforced belief that people who love you aren't entirely telling the truth. It seems to be a common thread in these stories that alcoholic parents will say that they love you and then act like they don't, or at the very least send mixed messages.

The other part of this is that children in families of alcoholics learn that others will reject them if they learn the truth about them.  For example, in the memoir I'm reading, the alcoholic father has a tendency to hide bourbon bottles all over the house -- under seat cushions, etc.  The children learn that their mother has quit a neighborhood social club because it was her turn to host, and there was no possible way to keep guests from finding the bourbon bottles.  So having company was out of the question.  What did the kids internalize?  If people know the truth about our family, they will reject us, so you keep your flaws a secret.

[MapleBob]

If you grow up with the belief that unconditional love is a virtual impossibility - and it's the one thing that you most crave - you wind up pretty disordered.

I personally would say more or less codependent, rather than disordered. There are many people who were brought up in very abusive circumstances who didn't end up disordered, so to me there is a combination of different factors.

This might be an unpopular or clinically inaccurate opinion, but I think "codependent" is on the "disordered" spectrum. It's just fairly benign in the world, looks a lot like "being good", and doesn't lend itself well to diagnosis.

What is it with some people brought up in non-problematic homes (on the surface perhaps) that makes them prone to going through the kind of negative experiences we read here? Why don't people get out earlier?

I think every codependent has their own cocktail of reasons. Mine used to involve earning love, and proving my worth, and doing what you're told to do as a man in a romantic relationship: fix the problems. You keep trying to fix the problems until the problems are fixed. And if they're never fixed? You keep trying to fix them.

[MapleBob]

The other part of this is that children in families of alcoholics learn that others will reject them if they learn the truth about them.  For example, in the memoir I'm reading, the alcoholic father has a tendency to hide bourbon bottles all over the house -- under seat cushions, etc.  The children learn that their mother has quit a neighborhood social club because it was her turn to host, and there was no possible way to keep guests from finding the bourbon bottles.  So having company was out of the question.  What did the kids internalize?  If people know the truth about our family, they will reject us, so you keep your flaws a secret.

Also very very true. I wonder if it is truly their belief that they can hide those secrets forever and still be able to feel unconditional love?

[GreenEyedMonster]

The other part of this is that children in families of alcoholics learn that others will reject them if they learn the truth about them.  For example, in the memoir I'm reading, the alcoholic father has a tendency to hide bourbon bottles all over the house -- under seat cushions, etc.  The children learn that their mother has quit a neighborhood social club because it was her turn to host, and there was no possible way to keep guests from finding the bourbon bottles.  So having company was out of the question.  What did the kids internalize?  If people know the truth about our family, they will reject us, so you keep your flaws a secret.

Also very very true. I wonder if it is truly their belief that they can hide those secrets forever and still be able to feel unconditional love?

I wonder if unconditional love is even something individuals in this situation can conceptualize.  In households like this, everything is focused on behavior -- is your behavior acceptable?  Unacceptable behavior means rejection.  You can't mess up and reveal your dad's horrible addiction and just apologize and be forgiven.  It messes everything up FOREVER.  There are dire consequences.  So there is no room for failing, even as a kid.  No one is going to reassure you that YOU are okay even though someone lost their job, your parents lost friends, your teacher called CPS, etc.  You just can't mess up.

I think that's where my ex is.  He is a total perfectionist.  Messing up isn't just something icky that happens; it makes him an unacceptable human being.

[thisworld]

Yes but should we not identify two different issues here?

Perfectionism developed in later years of childhood due to codependency caused by being raised in an alcoholic home is nothing like NPD that is set much earlier in childhood. For one thing, the first is rather easily sorted out - just through sharing and peer help, basically accessing a self. The individual is usually so unhappy that they start crying and crying at one point when they feel they are somewhere emotionally safe. Whereas NPD is not curable and he way "perfect" relates to the ego is completely different. The former are perfectionists, the latter are simply perfect, period. The former surely do have narcissistic traits but they don't have NPD and don't experience that huge narcissistic wound that feels like annihilation. And they don't do certain things NPDs do because they are adult children.  

One can be both a codependent child of an alcoholic and have NPD. Actually I think that's the case with my ex. Could be the case with your ex, too. He is an addict and an adult child so codependency is certainly there. He has exploitative aspects of some disorder outside this - adult children don't necessarily have fake information about them everywhere on the Internet like stating they have graduated from certain universities that they haven't or approaching people for NPD supply. But then he has very prominent signs of BPD, too - as I have discovered after coming here. Maybe what I think is NPD is BPD manifested through male gender role stereotypes. I think only him and a therapist can discover this.

If you believe your ex is both, can you distinguish when one is at work? (I can't usually. They seem to be intertwined but I notice certain ACoA traits that I have too because of being raised by an emotionally unavailable mother.)

For the sake of the argument, in the example above, it's not only the alcoholic father causing this actually. (He isn't an authoritian in his drinking. He is hiding stuff under cushions, he is pretty afraid.) There is a very obviously codependent mother there who doesn't establish boundaries or detach. It's this dynamic that conditions children. This sort of secrecy etc happens more due to codependency than the alcoholic himself (even the father is hiding things!). I even think the alcoholic father would forgive easier than the codependent mother in some instances.  

 

[GreenEyedMonster]

My ex often talked about how his mother was abused by his grandmother.  So his mother clearly had some issues to begin with.  She was probably Cluster B herself, based on his descriptions of her, quite possibly NPD.  She lived vicariously through him, choosing his career, the subjects he would study in school, the instrument he would play in band, and even the ethnicity of the woman he was supposed to marry.  She programmed him to think that he would get AIDS if he ever had sex with anyone . . . so he didn't, not until after she died.  He told me a story about a time that he brought a platonic female friend over to his house to hang out when his mom wasn't home, and she berated him and acted like she would disown him if he ever did any such thing again.  He lived home during all five years of college, and then again through his masters degree.  It's a pretty clear case of mother-son enmeshment.

I think his alcoholic dad may have been a side note in the whole mess, actually.  His father clearly failed to fulfill his mother's needs in any way, so she "spousified" her son and gained her emotional strength through him.  I think his absent father and the alcoholism set the stage for a very closed-in, secretive family life and a duplicitous family image.  If his mother grew up with abuse, she also learned that one doesn't talk about what happens at home. 

Apparently some psychologists think that people develop NPD when they are over-praised for actions and not openly loved for their inherent value.  Because my ex was used as a tool for emotional completion by his own mother, it's not that much of a stretch to see it in that situation.  Every time he tried to extricate himself from the situation, he faced abandonment, but staying meant re-creating himself as his mother's dream.  He was not allowed to be an individual, and he was simultaneously expected to become "perfect" for his mother.

The internalized belief here is that your value is in your actions.  If your actions aren't right, you are worthless, and may as well not exist.  It makes sense that a perfect external image would be a barrier against this.  I think, though, that the duplicity or fear of being a fraud that comes with narcissism is partly learned in families where the adults model it for the children.  My ex used to talk about how he felt deep shame when he was disciplined as a child, and would cry.  "I don't cry anymore," he said.  "I don't think I even can."

[DreamerGirl]

I grew up with both my parents being alcoholics.  We lived the perfect fake life on the outside, created by my mother.  We were told to smile and laugh and never ever betray her by daring to say anything about what was happening in the home.  Inside the home was a nightmare, it was a chaotic ugly mess of screaming, drunkenness, rages, sobbing, silent treatment and more. My mother is also BPD. 

I still find it incredibly hard to be open and honest about any feelings of vulnerability to anybody apart from my daughter and sisters.  I also don't trust or believe anybody 100%, apart from my daughter and sisters.  It has taken me years to stop trying to paint my life as perfect to other people.

In hindsight, I think my father drank to cope with living with her.  My father was the co-dependent in their relationship.

[MapleBob]

If you believe your ex is both, can you distinguish when one is at work? (I can't usually. They seem to be intertwined but I notice certain ACoA traits that I have too because of being raised by an emotionally unavailable mother.)

I have two exes who fit the bill for both ACoA and BPD. The second (most recent) one may be somewhat more ACoA than BPD, but I can't really be sure which behaviors are which because they overlap so much. I think the ACoA drives her sweetness (feeling like she needs to construct a persona to "earn" love), and the BPD drives her rage (because eventually she can't maintain that persona and continue to increase intimacy). That's somewhat reductive, but it's the best way I can put it.

I feel like the person that left our relationship was 50% percent different than the person I fell in love with, and that is an awful feeling.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I grew up with both my parents being alcoholics.  We lived the perfect fake life on the outside, created by my mother.  We were told to smile and laugh and never ever betray her by daring to say anything about what was happening in the home.  Inside the home was a nightmare, it was a chaotic ugly mess of screaming, drunkenness, rages, sobbing, silent treatment and more. My mother is also BPD. 

I still find it incredibly hard to be open and honest about any feelings of vulnerability to anybody apart from my daughter and sisters.  I also don't trust or believe anybody 100%, apart from my daughter and sisters.  It has taken me years to stop trying to paint my life as perfect to other people.

In hindsight, I think my father drank to cope with living with her.  My father was the co-dependent in their relationship.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.  Children in situations like this do not have a mistake/forgiveness/unconditional love cycle modeled for them.  Mistakes are deadly when you're trying to conceal a terrible truth.  The parent's alcoholism is treated like an unforgivable sin, and that sin is never confessed and forgiven, always hidden and denied.  My ex hides and denies almost everything he does wrong, rather than asking for forgiveness, and I am convinced he learned this from his dysfunctional family.

I think my ex's mother may have been the real problem in his family too.  It wouldn't surprise me if she is the reason that her husband drank heavily and focused so much on his job. 

[MapleBob]

I grew up with both my parents being alcoholics.  We lived the perfect fake life on the outside, created by my mother.  We were told to smile and laugh and never ever betray her by daring to say anything about what was happening in the home.  Inside the home was a nightmare, it was a chaotic ugly mess of screaming, drunkenness, rages, sobbing, silent treatment and more. My mother is also BPD.  

I still find it incredibly hard to be open and honest about any feelings of vulnerability to anybody apart from my daughter and sisters.  I also don't trust or believe anybody 100%, apart from my daughter and sisters.  It has taken me years to stop trying to paint my life as perfect to other people.

In hindsight, I think my father drank to cope with living with her.  My father was the co-dependent in their relationship.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.  Children in situations like this do not have a mistake/forgiveness/unconditional love cycle modeled for them.

That certainly rings true with my recent ex. I suspect that she's literally incapable of forgiveness in close relationships. All of my tiny missteps that I tried so hard to be accountable for and make up to her: and somehow she would get more upset about them over time, not less. That was ultimately what most blew my mind about her - it just literally doesn't make the kind of sense you expect with people. I'm not even talking about big things here, these are things that were ridiculous upsets from the get-go, things that often just boiled down to "you didn't thank me for dinner" (when I distinctly remember doing so), or "you didn't compliment my dress when I wanted you to" (when I was *clearly* attracted to her).

And those things were always added up and tallied into "you don't love me". 

[GreenEyedMonster]

I grew up with both my parents being alcoholics.  We lived the perfect fake life on the outside, created by my mother.  We were told to smile and laugh and never ever betray her by daring to say anything about what was happening in the home.  Inside the home was a nightmare, it was a chaotic ugly mess of screaming, drunkenness, rages, sobbing, silent treatment and more. My mother is also BPD.  

I still find it incredibly hard to be open and honest about any feelings of vulnerability to anybody apart from my daughter and sisters.  I also don't trust or believe anybody 100%, apart from my daughter and sisters.  It has taken me years to stop trying to paint my life as perfect to other people.

In hindsight, I think my father drank to cope with living with her.  My father was the co-dependent in their relationship.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.  Children in situations like this do not have a mistake/forgiveness/unconditional love cycle modeled for them.

That certainly rings true with my recent ex. I suspect that she's literally incapable of forgiveness in close relationships. All of my tiny missteps that I tried so hard to be accountable for and make up to her: and somehow she would get more upset about them over time, not less. That was ultimately what most blew my mind about her - it just literally doesn't make the kind of sense you expect with people. I'm not even talking about big things here, these are things that were ridiculous upsets from the get-go, things that often just boiled down to "you didn't thank me for dinner" (when I distinctly remember doing so), or "you didn't compliment my dress when I wanted you to" (when I was *clearly* attracted to her).

And those things were always added up and tallied into "you don't love me".  

All Cluster Bs seem to have PTSD at their core.  Sam Vaknin (with whom I do not always agree) says that NPD is a PTSD reaction that begins in childhood and becomes entrenched as the personality.  I think he is on to something there.  The things you describe in your ex, MapleBob, sound a lot like the proverbial "can beside the road" in PTSD.  For most of us, a can beside the road is a can beside the road.  But for a war veteran with PTSD, it is a bomb, waiting to kill them, because the trauma they have experienced has so heightened their senses.

Your ex can't simultaneously read it as a warning sign -- what her brain has been deeply programmed to do -- and forgive you and forget it.  I suspect that's what's going on there.

[MapleBob]

The things you describe in your ex, MapleBob, sound a lot like the proverbial "can beside the road" in PTSD.  For most of us, a can beside the road is a can beside the road.  But for a war veteran with PTSD, it is a bomb, waiting to kill them, because the trauma they have experienced has so heightened their senses.

Your ex can't simultaneously read it as a warning sign -- what her brain has been deeply programmed to do -- and forgive you and forget it.  I suspect that's what's going on there.

That's probably at least somewhat true. There were specific times where I felt like "ummm, this is clearly not about me... ."

And you're told to validate BPD, but it's really hard to do that when you're presented with negative things about yourself that just aren't true, or certainly not to such a great extent. It's lose/lose: you either try to refute the claims and then you're being invalidating, or you accept their experience as "true for them" and watch them punish or leave you for it!

[DreamerGirl]

I've found that I can forgive completely.  To survive growing up with alcoholic parents, and a BPD mother makes you realize you need to accept being treated badly and forgive them because to not do that, as a child without any power, would be a big mistake and only make your life much more painful.  So I tend to be able to bury my hurt and still love the person.  I think that's one of the reasons I seem able to put up with much more than the average person who had a relatively normal upbringing.  It's not a good thing and it's something I am only now starting to see in myself.  I hope I can one day become emotionally healthy and believe in myself.