Last-ditch attempts to save marriage -- what to say at therapy sessions?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

At this point, almost any interaction with my wife becomes confrontational within 60 seconds. Sometimes raging, but sometimes just criticism, sarcasm, or hostile interrogation. We've been sleeping in separate rooms, and I am minimizing contact with her. She hates this, and it feeds her abandonment and anger at me. I don't love it, but I think it's necessary to keep the situation at home at a lower level of aggression. Our D10 is caught in the middle of this.

Everyone I've spoken with about the situation (family, friends, therapists) sees divorce as either necessary or understandable. I am close to taking that step. I have one thing left to try in my toolbox, and that's where I could use some advice.

Our MC has strongly encouraged me to set up a family session with my wife's DBT group leader to give input into what's been happening at home, to hopefully influence her progress in DBT. After eight months in DBT, I haven't seen any improvement in behaviors. The MC and I are both concerned that she has co-opted the DBT process, using it for social support rather than transferring the skills to our relationship. My wife has agreed to set up a session with the three of us (DBT counselor, her, and I).

What do I say? Should I just describe all the problems with her behavior? Should I ask questions about the program and their evaluation of her? (The counselor may be a little squirrelly -- from my wife's not-necessarily-accurate description, she sounds very green and unsure of herself.)

I don't have much hope that this will change anything, but it's pretty much the last step I've been asked to take, and I'm willing to put in the effort. Any suggestions are appreciated.

[flourdust]

At this point, almost any interaction with my wife becomes confrontational within 60 seconds. Sometimes raging, but sometimes just criticism, sarcasm, or hostile interrogation. We've been sleeping in separate rooms, and I am minimizing contact with her. She hates this, and it feeds her abandonment and anger at me. I don't love it, but I think it's necessary to keep the situation at home at a lower level of aggression. Our D10 is caught in the middle of this.

Everyone I've spoken with about the situation (family, friends, therapists) sees divorce as either necessary or understandable. I am close to taking that step. I have one thing left to try in my toolbox, and that's where I could use some advice.

Our MC has strongly encouraged me to set up a family session with my wife's DBT group leader to give input into what's been happening at home, to hopefully influence her progress in DBT. After eight months in DBT, I haven't seen any improvement in behaviors. The MC and I are both concerned that she has co-opted the DBT process, using it for social support rather than transferring the skills to our relationship. My wife has agreed to set up a session with the three of us (DBT counselor, her, and I).

What do I say? Should I just describe all the problems with her behavior? Should I ask questions about the program and their evaluation of her? (The counselor may be a little squirrelly -- from my wife's not-necessarily-accurate description, she sounds very green and unsure of herself.)

I don't have much hope that this will change anything, but it's pretty much the last step I've been asked to take, and I'm willing to put in the effort. Any suggestions are appreciated.

[Anise]

I think describing all the problems may flood your wife and she may not be receptive to what you or the therapist has to say.  I mean, if the therapist asks for that, then okay.  But maybe focusing on one big picture thing would be more helpful.

I don't know that I would ask for the evaluation/assessment of your wife in this setting, but maybe others have a different opinion.

"I would like us to be on better terms, but when we start communicating, I feel it becomes negative and toxic very quickly.  I distance myself because I feel that is the best way for me to minimize the negative communication, because I don't know how to de-escalate things once they start, I need help with these skills and I need her support in practicing them". This sounds close to what you are describing, and I don't think would put your wife on the defensive.

Good luck! I am in a similar position with my husband, although I ended up moving out. I don't have good answers or can say that I know any better how to handle the situation.

[flourdust]

That's brilliant, Anise. So much better than what I was thinking, which was more of an organized list of the categories of behavioral problems. Thank you!

[Anise]

Hi!  I am glad you found it helpful!  I hope it works for you! Good luck with the appointment!

[flourdust]

I'm not convinced this appointment will ever happen. Over the last few days, she has been arguing with me about it -- saying that the staff at the clinic don't want to meet with me, that her group leader isn't authorized to do this, that she can't understand what to put on the release of information form, and so on. She's either using some of her bag of tricks to avoid setting up the appointment or is trapped in the middle with an incompetent DBT clinic that is stonewalling her. Or some from column A, some from column B.

I'm disappointed but not surprised. We'll see what happens.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey flour dust, Don't hold your breath!  I'm sure your W is not eager to have you meet with anyone at the clinic and I doubt it would get vary far, anyway, due to the therapist/patient privilege.  One possibility might be for you and your W to agree to spend some time apart to reassess where you are going in your marriage.  This will probably trigger her fear of abandonment, so you will need to be firm if you decide to try it.  Maybe taking a break from each other will lead to some new approaches?  Maybe not, but it's a lot easier than a divorce.

LuckyJim

[teapay]

I've done a few of these with my W and her Ts.  I usually approach it as an update on her progress for me and where I express my concerns in a non-critical way.  My W uses takes on a very subdued tone and role in the process and I usually submit an agenda beforehand.  Doesn't this sound strange?   Anyway, the sessions usually go okay, but don't have much bearing on anything near term as far as changes in her.  After a week or two she will seize on something in my concerns that could be construed as critical of her.  So even though not much ever came of it, the update and information I get is usually worth it.  You'll quickly figure out whether the T is a quack or a chump.

[flourdust]

Still nothing but obfuscation. Here's what needs to actually happen in order to schedule this meeting -- Wife needs to fill out a release of information form. She needs to write what information the program is allowed to disclose to me. Then the meeting can be scheduled.

Here's a selection of text and email exchanges over the last eight days.

Wife: As for the last thing, as I articulated, you calling may or may not elicit a reply without my having more info from you.  I am not going to give her open permission to discuss everything (they don't even ask that for my other care team) and there go-to for family is no info.  As such I need something from you to fill in regarding acceptable topics. You can try just calling her but in my experience she will wait to hear from me before returning a call, so I still will need some information.

Me: I just want to talk to her to ask for a meeting with the three of us. I won't speak to her without you present other than to ask for the meeting. I'd like us to meet so I can provide my perspective on how things are going. My understanding is that this is valuable input for any DBT therapist. She doesn't have to disclose anything about you unless you want her to.

Wife: Turns out she can answer her phone right now I had to give her a call you can try right now if you want.

(I called. She didn't answer. I left a voicemail.)

Wife: Not surprisingly, she may not be able to call you back until at least after 2pm tomorrow, which is the weekly case consult meeting. I need to be able to fill out and sign a form with what I authorize shared/discussed with you. The message you sent only addressed things you want to say to her. Is that really the case?  I was under the impression that you wanted to have a conversation with her & her boss (with me as well). If the later is true than I need to understand more clearly what you have in mind so that I can determine what releases to authorize.  She asked that I try to get this information from you before her case consult.  That will allow her to attempt to put a meeting together.

Me: f you are willing to share what's going on in your program and how they evaluate you are doing, that would be welcome. If you're not comfortable with that, I can accept that.

Wife: I spoke with her today regarding setting up a meeting. I had also connected her with K, as my individual therapist and a more advanced DBT practitioner and MHS employee. They were able to connect yesterday. They want to meet with me first to determine the plan and scope of the meeting. I was surprised and taken aback by that. I read her what you had sent to me and the response was a very emphatic reiteration that I am the client and it is my decision what happens. Though I said I am alright with scheduling a meeting, I was also told that at present time, she is not authorized to meet with you. She is asking her boss today what the protocol is for that circumstance.  So, in the meantime, I have an appointment with K on Thursday and another on Tuesday early morning and will look to complete whatever they need me to do. However it seems no meeting will take place until January. I hope this isn't an inconvenience. I also hope you recognize that I am trying very hard to make your request happen.

Me: Ok. Thank you for working on this. I appreciate it.

Then there were multiple in-person conversations about what to put on her release of information form, and how my request didn't make any sense, that they don't have meetings with families, that there is no such thing. So I said I would share an example of the type of meeting that another DBT program describes on their website.

Me: "Family Consultation Services: Individual consultation sessions are available for family members to share concerns about their loved one, gain a better understanding of their current situation, and to discuss treatment options."

Wife: I just read this in reference to all of the programs they offer. It seems that they are talking about a family consultation as a means to assess which program will be most appropriate for the client.   Is this what you have in mind?   Again, I'm asking because the professionals want to know the purpose of the meeting and I need to come up with some thing to fill in under the "other" blank on the release of information.

Me: Yes, that’s basically what I have in mind. Obviously, we’re not meeting them for the first time to shop for a program, but it’s still reasonable to get and give feedback on a program in progress.

Wife: I am incredibly confused. If your intent is to give one sided feedback, then why are you wanting this as an in-person meeting rather than writing out your feedback?  I feel even less able to inform the staff now of the purpose, or to fill out a statement regarding release of information. At this point I no longer know how to communicate what you seem to be asking for. You mention wanting to give them feedback yet reference it as if we are asking them for feedback on the proper program for my treatment. I have asked as many ways as I can. At this point I think the wisest thing to do would be to ask if you would please put in writing an agenda and/or goal for the meeting and a recommendation for the release.

-----

And now the ball is back in my court. (As is usually the case, the game is Calvinball.)

[teapay]

This silliness sounds very familiar to me.  Your W sounds like a pro at it too.  I've cut through some of the BS by contacting one T and expressing my concerns regarding my W's safety and the safety of us a home.  Then the T seemed to help facilitate it alittle, maybe because the T got scared and on the hook as well as probably not trusting my W as being forthcoming.  It sounds, though, like even if you are able to set up something, it probably won't make much difference.  You mention this as a last ditch effort.  Have you talked to your W about separating and how would that look? 

[flourdust]

No. I haven't said anything to her, other than saying we need some space from each other (which she says she agrees with, though she's quick to complain about being abandoned when the mood strikes).

I honestly don't feel that a separation would make any difference. If she's not going to take any responsibility for trying to work on her behaviors and distorted thinking processes in therapy, then what would the point be other than to drag things out? Better to just get it over with.

[teapay]

I kind of feel the same way about separation.  To me it seems like the pause between rounds in a boxing match.  Go to your corners until the bell rings.  Talk to the coaches (Ts) for advice.  Get your breath back.  Ding ding.  Back to the jabs, upper cuts, hooks and haymakers.  Once I get to that point, I might as well make it permanent and do a full remodeling.

I would consider it, though, if it would ease the transition to permanent separation.  I think I'm getting to that point, but I'm trying to envision what the relaties (custody, finances, assets) of that split might look like. 

[flourdust]

<bump>

So, this meeting is supposed to happen tomorrow morning. Me, my wife, her DBT group leader, and her therapist. My goal is to try to relay in as non-disparaging a way as possible, that I'm not seeing DBT skills in use in my marriage, and to try to get a sense of how she is participating in the program. My wife likes to tell me that they think she's doing wonderful, fantastic ... .so if the therapists concur with that, I'll ask why the disconnect between her program performance and home life.

I have no real expectation that this meeting is going to lead to any positive outcome. Maybe the best case scenario is they start pushing her harder to get outside her comfort zone and really work on her problems. Worst case scenario is that she's totally co-opted the program and her therapists and they treat me as an unreliable hostile presence.

My wife had a huge screaming dysregulation this evening. The proximal cause was something to do with dinner, but she's clearly incredibly anxious that I'm going to go into this meeting tomorrow and make her look bad.

Whatever... .

[AsGoodAsItGets]

Good luck

[flourdust]

Thanks.

We had the meeting this morning. I was able to relay the big picture of what's been going on in the home, and that I'm not seeing positive behavioral changes. I talked about her reaction to my use of DBT skills (validation, boundaries). We talked about self-soothing, emotion regulation, and her safety plan when dealing with SIBs and suicidal ideation. Overall, I think the counselors were generally receptive to what I was saying. If it helps them focus her more on skills that will help in the house, that's a good thing. I don't have any strong expectation of that. But I've done what I can.