How could I have responded differently?

[Chilibean13]

Need some help on how to proceed and just stop the dysreg. Here is backstory then our texts. So H has been dysregulating for over 16 hours about a trip we were invited to go on. One problem is that his assistant supervisor is going on the same trip so H wasn't sure if he could get the time off too. Our plan was that he would talk to his assistant supervisor and then talk to his supervisor. Yesterday he spoke to the assistant who gave a wishy washy answer and then H decided "no we aren't going on the trip." without wanting to ask supervisor like planned. I am now black because I showed disappointment in public when he suddenly decided not to ask supervisor and just told me no. This morning he brought it up again. I yelled. He yelled. I stormed out of the house and went to work. One hour later:

Me: How do we move forward?

H: I tried coming up with ideas for you to more than "hope".

I don't feel like there is much hope that you will concern yourself with US in your private and personal choices and decisions.

So I really don't know what to do or expect or imagine every possible scenario and tell you exactly what to do or say in those situations. I cannot rely on you to look out for me simply because I wish you did like the idea of US. That won't work because it's not true. So I don't kow. I can keep thiking thru scenarios and coming up with helpful plans of action for you? But you are not receptive to that either... .I don't know.I would love for it to be a different way."I like being with you, for now. I guess we can hope you don't do anything to upset me." That what I feel like your commitment level is. I would love to start our arguments under the pretense that you ARE NOT actually trying to defeat me in order to achieve your ends. I wnated to be able to enjoy this with you. That won't work. If you are not blaming me right now. Realize that you definately did make the "no man."

Me: I did do that and I"m sorry. I have been working on trying not to see you as the bad guy and I had made some pretty good progress in that. I think the best thing to do is not to try to "fix" the other person but to fix our own response in this. I will look at what I did to escalte this and you look at what you did to escalate it.

H:I tried to prevent you from gleefully dashing out of my life... .No. That's not true.

Me: How did I try to dash out of your life?

H: I was so sad when it did not seem to matter much if I could go. "Oh no. I want you too!" But oh well I can still go!"

You could have seemed sad and said, "Well if you can't go then I don't want to either."

Me: When did i say I could go by myself?  Pretty sure this whole time I have not once said I wanted to go alone.

H: But instead you seemed disappointed... .in me.  Why did you argue so much then? Could go, want to go... .I think those mean different things. Your changing terms again. It is causing me to have curiosity. You wouldn't have to go alone either

Me: Either way I say it I don't remember even mentioning the possibility of going alone. I think you may have imagined that I said that because I have not been trying to go by myself--at all.

H: I think I pointed out how only 1 of us could go... .It was either me or my (assistant supervisor). So either way you would not have to mention or think about going alone... .Technically you would not be.

Me: Ok I did not even consdier going without you. That was your fear but not my hope or plan

H: "I didn't mention going alone... .Because that's not true even if H doens't go with me."Then pridefully tell otheres you don't want to go to their stupid conference. It was at least a backup plan until I made you cry.I had to tell you not to go without me. If I didn't it would be that plan.

Me: No it wans't a backup. As I told you before, if we both couldn't go then we couldn't go.

H: I said that! THat was my argument. You might have agreed.

Me: So if I agreed why are you saying I want to abandon you?

H: Becuase your agreement might simply be a verbal assent in order to shut me up. You agree with me always.

Me: Going without you was not an option to me.

H: And we end up at odds. Ok. If I accept that then the moment your mouth betrays you... .we will fight again. I want to know how to stop fighting over this. I think I need to trust you in order for me to stop. Trusting people who will harm you to gain prestiage is scary to me.

Me: That is something you need to work through just like I need to work through my issues with how I view you. And you are trying to change the argument

H: What argument?

Me: I thought the argument was about you thinking I was wanting to go without you? But now you are saying its about me wanting to gain prestige.

H: I don't care if you have all the prestige in the world. The fact that hurting me is inconsequential (until I throw a fit) is what links it to rejection and abandonment. It's about how expendable I feel when I am in your way

Me: You were not in my way. I had no intention at all of going without you. I wanted us to go together and I was perfectly ok with us saying no if you coudln't get off work. My only issue  in all of this was I thought you would ask (boss's name) but then yesterday you suddenly changed direction and decided not ask as (boss's name). I felt like you went back on our plan.

H: But you have heard my explanation too. SO I will put in 5 apps tomorrow and quit my job on march 1 either way. Problem solved? No. That's why I asked (assisant supervisor's name). Because I know right from wrong.

Me: After you explained to me that you had gotten in trouble  ebfore about being gone whiel (assistant supervisor) was gone, I was not upset about you not asking Wes. I wasn't even upset about not going.

H: Probably because you supplanted words like "could" with "want". One word indicates abilty the other indicates desire. Yes you were! That's why I tried to wokr something out. THat's why I said buy the tickets anyway.

Me: No. I didn't know you got in trouble until yesterday afternoon.

H: But you were upset.

Me: I was upset until I knew you got in trouble. After that I was upset that you were being angry.

H: Would have been nice to have some consolation about that yesterday.

Me: I don't think you would have accepted it. I'm pretty sure I did try to tell you that but you didn't wnat to hear it.

H: "Oh ok. I'm sorry that not your fault. I love that you are trying to be respectful of (boss) and avoid causing (assistant supervisor) distress." Nope. I have to shine a spotlight on how I AM behaving correctly. Or else you don't notice.

Me: I could haev been more clear about what I was saying. But that is how I felt. Once I knew it had been an issue in the past for you I understood.

H: Then even after I have done well by my boss and friend, I still get the impression you think I am the f*ing problem. The f*ing problem is going to a conference in March that we need deadlines by 2 days from the annoucement. But again I almost have to scream that

Me: It wasn't much time. That did put a lot of pressure on.

H: See? If I point out the problem... .maybe, maybe you see it. Scary part if most times you don't see it. Or worse don't care if it is a problem. There is no price too high to may  for "righteous standing" in leadership at church. Even if I show you the price tag. I don't think you need to udnerstand all my motiation. I think you need to defer to me.Especially when you don't know one way or the other.

Me: Perhaps you could have let me know sooner that the short edeadline was making you feel pressured and stressed I would have reacted differently.

H: No. No. No. The short deadline is ungodly horrible planning. Your church leadership team suck. See? You can't say that. But... .It is at least as valid as you being obedient to me without all the facts or comforts. It doens't matter if the place is 13 hours away. It does matter what Josiah got in trouble at work for. See? They are gods. I am the devil. In your mind. It's an unfortunately fact that if there is some reason (assistant supervisor) can go. It's a terrible tragedy that I felt pressure and thus did not bow down. That sounds crazy! But that's what you want me to understand? It is an unfortunate truth that Christians charge their bros and sis $78 bucks to seel a book. It is a horrid tragedy that I wont ask (supervisor)

Me: I'm getting confused about what you are saying now.

H: See?

Me: Ok you are just ramping up again. I'm going to take a break from this conversation.

H: I putting two children byes doctor statements forward. [no clue what this meant] Oh. I'm rapming up. It is surely not that you hold me to a hideous standard in comparison... .oh, about everything and everyone. I was making contrasted statements. All the details of the argument seem to be "ah well, such is life," except when we get to the spots where my name is mentioned... .then it is somehow just the way I see things... .And not actually any sort of problem at all. If you want we could probably break down these texts and I can show you where I think you are still doing that... .Everyone and everyting gets to be neutral morally to you, except where my parts come in. THen I either "prove myself" or be the bad guy. But I can't prove myself without harming (supervisor) or (assistant supervisor). Explanations are required... .But not so you could finagle (assistant) or (supervisor) or leadership. You want me to explain myself... .to you. When I think you should just go with me!

Me: Ok this is the last I'm speaking of this subject... .forever. Thank you for trying. I greatly appreciate that. I wish we could have gone but it didn't work out and that is ok. It is just a crappy situation. I love you. I don't like seeing you so bent out of shape. Let's move on and get back to working on the goals we had planned.

H: ... .Until the next time you find a way to potentially jeopardize our plans? That's why I think the idea of moving on is stupid. I don't think you value me or any plans we have... .at least not when everyone else's plans are so much better. That's why I have had to point out how it could affect our plans this time and with (another business opportunity that was offered to me).

Me: Again. I'm done talking about this. We have exhausted every issue and that is the end of it.

H: Ok. I like how you get to decide when WE are done too. It's so easy for you. I think we need to revisit our plans, probably scarp everyone of them that I am emotionally in to. That way you will only be able to reject me to a limited point, when the next fancy strikes.

Soo... .I know I did a lot wrong. I just need some advice on how to proceed and what I could have done to prevent this earlier. At this point, I really don't want to go home tonight. I'm kicking myself in the butt for not having an overnight bag packed.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Wrongturn1]

Chili:  Looks like a no-win exchange, and I suspect that nothing you could have said would have been "right". 

Your first message might have set the wrong tone for the exchange.  Instead of "how do we move forward", things might have gone better if you had looked to address emotions and reassure him that you are not abandoning him.  Maybe something like "Wow, things got really heated this morning, and I'm sorry for yelling at you.  You are important to me, and I regret the way things went.  I hope we can talk through this later more calmly tonight."

Also, it seems like you are JADE'ing a lot.  Also again, it seems like you are working hard to "win" the argument.  My relationship with my uBPDw improved significantly after I let go of the concept of winning or being the one who is right.

[Chilibean13]

Chili:  Looks like a no-win exchange, and I suspect that nothing you could have said would have been "right". 

Your first message might have set the wrong tone for the exchange.  Instead of "how do we move forward", things might have gone better if you had looked to address emotions and reassure him that you are not abandoning him.  Maybe something like "Wow, things got really heated this morning, and I'm sorry for yelling at you.  You are important to me, and I regret the way things went.  I hope we can talk through this later more calmly tonight."

Also, it seems like you are JADE'ing a lot.  Also again, it seems like you are working hard to "win" the argument.  My relationship with my uBPDw improved significantly after I let go of the concept of winning or being the one who is right.

Not going to lie. After 16 hours of this argument, I felt a little happy that he was feeling so abandoned. I hoped it would teach him a lesson, but after about 30 minutes away from him I realized that I was being just as bad as he was and that I needed to try to defuse the situation. I was still pretty annoyed though.

I just want normal. A normal couple would be able to take short trips without the other one freaking out and accusing me of wanting to sleep with his boss on the trip (even though said boss's wife would be there). We have had 3 weeks of no dysregulations. It's been great. It's like everything both of us have been working on is just for nothing. I knew this was coming.  He had been agitated for days about all kinds of things. He wanted to control other people. He was starting to smother me. I just need a break from him. He says things like "YOu would be free if I wasn't around." And I agree with him. My life would be better. I would be free. I fantasize about it all the time. But I have no moral reason to leave. Even if I had the right reason, would I go?

[Wrongturn1]

I just want normal. A normal couple would be able to take short trips without the other one freaking out and accusing me of wanting to sleep with his boss on the trip (even though said boss's wife would be there).

I can certainly relate to that... .normal would be so incredibly nice.  I've been falsely accused by my uBPDw of wanting to get it on with female co-workers, a lady from church, women I didn't even see or notice while we were out in public, Zoey from the "New Girl" TV show, Beyonce (sp?), myself, a male friend, and many others.  It defies all logic, and I'm starting to learn not to take it personally, although that can be difficult. 

It has really messed with my mind, the way I have attempted to navigate so many situations on eggshells, trying to prevent situations that would give my wife ammunition for bizarre false accusations.  It's not really worthwhile, and I found myself praying just this past weekend that I would have the strength to life my life the same way I would live if my wife were mentally healthy.

He says things like "YOu would be free if I wasn't around." And I agree with him. My life would be better. I would be free. I fantasize about it all the time. But I have no moral reason to leave. Even if I had the right reason, would I go?

That's a good question to ponder and then not dwell on for too long. 

I think for a lot of nons, the answer is "no" because so many people's BPD spouses have already given them the right reasons to leave, but they still stay.  To even end up in a long-term relationship with a BPD, I think a person has to be predisposed to putting their own feelings aside and putting up with a lot of bad behavior that would cause a person with healthy boundaries to walk away.  The question is even stickier for married Christian nons because the scriptural justifications for leaving are so few and far between, and even if the scriptural conditions were met, you'd still have to think about extending grace, forgiveness, and working on restoration. 

I say don't dwell on it for too long because if the right reasons for leaving are not there, then you're just wasting time fantasizing about hypothetical situations.  Better to deal with the moment that actually exists right now.

[Chilibean13]

I think for a lot of nons, the answer is "no" because so many people's BPD spouses have already given them the right reasons to leave, but they still stay.  To even end up in a long-term relationship with a BPD, I think a person has to be predisposed to putting their own feelings aside and putting up with a lot of bad behavior that would cause a person with healthy boundaries to walk away.  The question is even stickier for married Christian nons because the scriptural justifications for leaving are so few and far between, and even if the scriptural conditions were met, you'd still have to think about extending grace, forgiveness, and working on restoration. 

I say don't dwell on it for too long because if the right reasons for leaving are not there, then you're just wasting time fantasizing about hypothetical situations.  Better to deal with the moment that actually exists right now.

Very true. Thanks!

[Wrongturn1]

To even end up in a long-term relationship with a BPD, I think a person has to be predisposed to putting their own feelings aside and putting up with a lot of bad behavior that would cause a person with healthy boundaries to walk away. 

Oh, and to clarify the above, I'm not suggesting that nons should tolerate abuse from their BPDs.  I'm suggesting that we all have boundaries against accepting abuse.  It's just that a lot of us nons tend to put up with a lot, which is how we end up in these relationships.  But we can change our approach, which often brings about improvements in our relationships.